Marantz AV8802 13.2 XLR Pre/Pro **Official Thread** - Page 499 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14941 of 15355 Old 08-07-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You cannot get all the features of the Audyssey app by purchasing the Pro kit. While I respect @alen onau’s opinion, I still disagree WRT the audio benefits of a Pro calibration. If you really want to take a big step forward, consider adding the MiniDSP 88A and experience Dirac Live, which is a significantly better solution than Audyssey.
Correct regarding all the features of the new Audyssey app versus the Pro Kit - they're really 2 completely different things.

@alebonau continues to really overdo it on just how much better the Pro Kit microphone is versus the regular microphone. IMHO, $20 for the Audyssey app for the 8805 is a FAR better investment than $750 (at full price) for the Pro Kit plus another $150 for the license for the Denon AVP or 8802.

Regarding the 8802 versus the 8805, I don't really have much of an opinion because I went from my Denon AVP-A1HDCI directly to an 8805. After several months, I really don't miss the Denon at all and really don't feel like the 8805 is a step back. But if I already had the 8802, I'm not sure I'd bother upgrading to the 8805.
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post #14942 of 15355 Old 08-07-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You cannot get all the features of the Audyssey app by purchasing the Pro kit. While I respect @alen onau’s opinion, I still disagree WRT the audio benefits of a Pro calibration. If you really want to take a big step forward, consider adding the MiniDSP 88A and experience Dirac Live, which is a significantly better solution than Audyssey.
So if I wanted jump into dirac live what would I need for a 5.2.4 setup and just a rough estimate of cost?

thanks,

dave
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post #14943 of 15355 Old 08-07-2018, 04:09 PM
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So if I wanted jump into dirac live what would I need for a 5.2.4 setup and just a rough estimate of cost?

thanks,

dave
For an immersive sound setup with more than a 7.1 configuration, sell the 8802 and consider one of the new NAD processors. Another option is to use the MiniDSP 88A to calibrate the bed speakers and leave the ceiling speakers uncalibrated. A third option would be to get a second 88A to include the ceiling speakers, but this option is as expensive as getting a NAD, and more complex to implement.

And the fourth option, which is the least expensive, is to be satisfied with your current 8802A, and forget about the Pro kit.
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post #14944 of 15355 Old 08-07-2018, 08:37 PM
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My experience with the pro kit isn’t limited to me, I know others and have experienced others see the benefit and not just on the 8802. I have since also helped someone with a 7702mk2 and also a 8801 do a pro calibration. Marantz I hope do what likes of anthem etc do same with mini dsp abd give a calibrated mic option. How on earth they expect to base a calibration on an uncalibrated mic? is bizarre at what is supposed to be a flagship product. Can only hope a flag ship product on next iteration also comes with flagship calibration and eq. Including a proper calibrated mic to calibrate 😄

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post #14945 of 15355 Old 08-09-2018, 10:23 AM
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If you want the best, you can always go for the Trinnov Altitude 16 or 32
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post #14946 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
My experience with the pro kit isn’t limited to me, I know others and have experienced others see the benefit and not just on the 8802. I have since also helped someone with a 7702mk2 and also a 8801 do a pro calibration. Marantz I hope do what likes of anthem etc do same with mini dsp abd give a calibrated mic option. How on earth they expect to base a calibration on an uncalibrated mic? is bizarre at what is supposed to be a flagship product. Can only hope a flag ship product on next iteration also comes with flagship calibration and eq. Including a proper calibrated mic to calibrate 😄
Same here, I've used both the stock mic and built-in setup as well as my Pro kit on both my units (first an AVP-A1HD, now an 8802A) and those of friends. Results from a Pro run are always, with no exceptions, much better than anything I can accomplish with the stock mic and process. So it's the same operator, who knows how to run a cal process, and the Pro delivers a better result.

As to why, well a good calibrated mic is just part of it, but a rather minor one IMHO. The real reason for the much more cohesive soundield is likely due to the algorithms having access to much more CPU horsepower, able to run a more complex algo, or just many more iterations thanks to CPU availability and the operator is a pro and not some antsy consumer who will not wait more than x for the calculations to end. One more factor could also be access to more data from the samples, as the AVR only has so much RAM, vs. the PC-based app with access to gigabytes of RAM.

Another benefit of Pro is what seems to me a much more accurate delay and timing in the setup/corrections. Maybe they do multiple cross-speaker passes to work out timing and inter-speaker effects. To me, this is a core of why Pro is better, as getting timing just right is a big deal when doing 3D audio.

Then you add the flexibility of personalized target curves, and the results are pretty sweet.

No question that a Dirac or Trinnov room correction process could yield improved results, but the platforms with those are limited (either in count or cost), so the D&M based platforms with Audyssey are great value if you can use the Pro kit.

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If you want the best, you can always go for the Trinnov Altitude 16 or 32
For sure, but at a cost $$$$$. An Altitude is on my wish-list
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post #14947 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:50 AM
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Same here, I've used both the stock mic and built-in setup as well as my Pro kit on both my units (first an AVP-A1HD, now an 8802A) and those of friends. Results from a Pro run are always, with no exceptions, much better than anything I can accomplish with the stock mic and process. So it's the same operator, who knows how to run a cal process, and the Pro delivers a better result.

As to why, well a good calibrated mic is just part of it, but a rather minor one IMHO. The real reason for the much more cohesive soundield is likely due to the algorithms having access to much more CPU horsepower, able to run a more complex algo, or just many more iterations thanks to CPU availability and the operator is a pro and not some antsy consumer who will not wait more than x for the calculations to end. One more factor could also be access to more data from the samples, as the AVR only has so much RAM, vs. the PC-based app with access to gigabytes of RAM.

Another benefit of Pro is what seems to me a much more accurate delay and timing in the setup/corrections. Maybe they do multiple cross-speaker passes to work out timing and inter-speaker effects. To me, this is a core of why Pro is better, as getting timing just right is a big deal when doing 3D audio.

Then you add the flexibility of personalized target curves, and the results are pretty sweet.

No question that a Dirac or Trinnov room correction process could yield improved results, but the platforms with those are limited (either in count or cost), so the D&M based platforms with Audyssey are great value if you can use the Pro kit.



For sure, but at a cost $$$$$. An Altitude is on my wish-list
I am not going to argue about what are likely subjective differences, but I am attaching a link to an objective analysis of the differences between a Pro calibration and a standard calibration. You can decide whether the results indicate enough of a difference to invest in a product that is end-of-life and no longer being supported.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nz0bvp7oyp...-2014.pdf?dl=0
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post #14948 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:55 AM
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Talking about Audyessy what do you guy/gals use "Reference" or "Flat". I have been using reference for a long time and decided to give flat a try because I read that flat restores the mid range compensation on the tutorial that is on this forum. I have been using flat for a few days on both TV and Blu ray and Audyessy flat sounds much better to my ears. Flat seems to have a fuller sound and not cutoff the highs and delver a more dynamic sound. It could also be placebo effect to because I am trying something new, who knows so I thought I would ask.

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post #14949 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 09:30 AM
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Talking about Audyessy what do you guy/gals use "Reference" or "Flat". I have been using reference for a long time and decided to give flat a try because I read that flat restores the mid range compensation on the tutorial that is on this forum. I have been using flat for a few days on both TV and Blu ray and Audyessy flat sounds much better to my ears. Flat seems to have a fuller sound and not cutoff the highs and delver a more dynamic sound. It could also be placebo effect to because I am trying something new, who knows so I thought I would ask.

Dave-t
Both use the mid-range compensation. "Reference" has a high-end roll-off, while "Flat" has less of a roll-off in the high-end. The conventional wisdom is that the room correction curve should approximate your speaker's natural response in the high end. Depending on your speakers, one or the other of the Audyssey choices may be more closely matching your speaker, resulting in a more pleasing sound. In Dirac Live, there is an option to set a threshold, above which no correction is applied. Some Dirac users set this threshold at 10KHz or lower in order to preserve the speaker's natural response curve. Of course, this is not possible using Audyssey, unless the new Audyssey app for the newer processors has this capability.
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post #14950 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 09:39 AM
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Both use the mid-range compensation. "Reference" has a high-end roll-off, while "Flat" has less of a roll-off in the high-end. The conventional wisdom is that the room correction curve should approximate your speaker's natural response in the high end. Depending on your speakers, one or the other of the Audyssey choices may be more closely matching your speaker, resulting in a more pleasing sound. In Dirac Live, there is an option to set a threshold, above which no correction is applied. Some Dirac users set this threshold at 10KHz or lower in order to preserve the speaker's natural response curve. Of course, this is not possible using Audyssey, unless the new Audyssey app for the newer processors has this capability.
What you are saying about Audyessy flat makes sense because that is what I am hearing, more highs. thanks appreciate it Austinjerry.
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post #14951 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Both use the mid-range compensation. "Reference" has a high-end roll-off, while "Flat" has less of a roll-off in the high-end. The conventional wisdom is that the room correction curve should approximate your speaker's natural response in the high end. Depending on your speakers, one or the other of the Audyssey choices may be more closely matching your speaker, resulting in a more pleasing sound. In Dirac Live, there is an option to set a threshold, above which no correction is applied. Some Dirac users set this threshold at 10KHz or lower in order to preserve the speaker's natural response curve. Of course, this is not possible using Audyssey, unless the new Audyssey app for the newer processors has this capability.
The app does indeed have this capability.
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post #14952 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 10:26 AM
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The app does indeed have this capability.
Good to hear, thanks for confirming. Although the OP and others who started this discussion on the Pro kit do not have a new processor with this app.
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post #14953 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 10:29 AM
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Good to hear, thanks for confirming. Although the OP and others who started this discussion on the Pro kit do not have a new processor with this app.
I was wondering,did the Pro kit already have this ability?
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post #14954 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 10:38 AM
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I was wondering,did the Pro kit already have this ability?
Not that I am aware of.
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post #14955 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 01:37 PM
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I was wondering,did the Pro kit already have this ability?
No, the Pro kit definitely does not have the ability to pick an upper frequency limit for correction. IMHO, @AustinJerry hit the nail on the head for the improvement from using the Pro Kit - the different result is a lot less about the mic used than it is about other aspects of how the calculations are performed.
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post #14956 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 05:41 PM
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Same here, I've used both the stock mic and built-in setup as well as my Pro kit on both my units (first an AVP-A1HD, now an 8802A) and those of friends. Results from a Pro run are always, with no exceptions, much better than anything I can accomplish with the stock mic and process. So it's the same operator, who knows how to run a cal process, and the Pro delivers a better result.

As to why, well a good calibrated mic is just part of it, but a rather minor one IMHO. The real reason for the much more cohesive soundield is likely due to the algorithms having access to much more CPU horsepower, able to run a more complex algo, or just many more iterations thanks to CPU availability and the operator is a pro and not some antsy consumer who will not wait more than x for the calculations to end. One more factor could also be access to more data from the samples, as the AVR only has so much RAM, vs. the PC-based app with access to gigabytes of RAM.

Another benefit of Pro is what seems to me a much more accurate delay and timing in the setup/corrections. Maybe they do multiple cross-speaker passes to work out timing and inter-speaker effects. To me, this is a core of why Pro is better, as getting timing just right is a big deal when doing 3D audio.

Then you add the flexibility of personalized target curves, and the results are pretty sweet.

~
yep no brainer to me for the denon avp and 8802a essential I would say

experience repeated with 7702mk2 and 8801 as well as I found pro calibrating


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~

No question that a Dirac or Trinnov room correction process could yield improved results, but the platforms with those are limited (either in count or cost), so the D&M based platforms with Audyssey are great value if you can use the Pro kit.

For sure, but at a cost $$$$$. An Altitude is on my wish-list
absolutely .... though we are starting to get this on likes of nad. and anthem does pretty well too ... using calibrated mic and their ARC

https://www.anthemav.com/anthem-room-correction.php

"On a more complex level, ARC is a proprietary digital signal processing software that works with a specially-engineered calibration microphone and your PC or iOS device* to quickly and easily optimize audio for your unique listening space. Anthem engineers developed the ARC system while researching how to replicate the audio-lab standard of performance in non-lab environments. This groundbreaking research was conducted in conjunction with the National Research Council of Canada, the Canadian government’s research and technology organization."


"ARC Mobile allows you to optimize your ARC enabled speakers by using either the internal microphone of the iOS device (for basic room correction) or an optional calibrated microphone*. Optional calibrated microphones, which connect via headphone jack, will be included with select products from Anthem, Paradigm, and MartinLogan. Please refer to the product user manual to see if it’s included.
The ARC Mobile app is available for free to iOS users on the Apple Store, and is now available in public beta for Android devices. The app supports Anthem’s STR Series (STR Integrated & STR Preamplifier), Anthem's MRX Series of AV Receivers (x10 & x20 versions), Anthem’s AVM 60 Pre-Amplifier / Processor, Paradigm’s Premium Wireless Series (PW AMP, PW 600, PW 800, PW Link, PW Soundplay, and PW Soundbar), and MartinLogan’s Wireless Ensemble (Verse, Forte, Unison, Bravado, and Cadence)."


they seem to manage an iOS device use along with calibrated mic. a complete cop out I would suggest you have to have one or other in this day and age. why give up competency of calibrating ... with a calibrated mic just because you want convenience of an app.

in any case am sitting pretty happy here... with the 8802a ... dont need no app or use an uncalibrated mic and its doing a great job on 7.1.5 so not like am left wanting.

but that said I would still look forward to a true flagship from marantz. D&M has done it before and am sure can do it again

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post #14957 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 05:54 PM
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yep no brainer to me for the denon avp and 8802a essential I would say

experience repeated with 7702mk2 and 8801 as well as I found pro calibrating




absolutely .... though we are starting to get this on likes of nad. and anthem does pretty well too ... using calibrated mic and their ARC

https://www.anthemav.com/anthem-room-correction.php

"On a more complex level, ARC is a proprietary digital signal processing software that works with a specially-engineered calibration microphone and your PC or iOS device* to quickly and easily optimize audio for your unique listening space. Anthem engineers developed the ARC system while researching how to replicate the audio-lab standard of performance in non-lab environments. This groundbreaking research was conducted in conjunction with the National Research Council of Canada, the Canadian government’s research and technology organization."


"ARC Mobile allows you to optimize your ARC enabled speakers by using either the internal microphone of the iOS device (for basic room correction) or an optional calibrated microphone*. Optional calibrated microphones, which connect via headphone jack, will be included with select products from Anthem, Paradigm, and MartinLogan. Please refer to the product user manual to see if it’s included.
The ARC Mobile app is available for free to iOS users on the Apple Store, and is now available in public beta for Android devices. The app supports Anthem’s STR Series (STR Integrated & STR Preamplifier), Anthem's MRX Series of AV Receivers (x10 & x20 versions), Anthem’s AVM 60 Pre-Amplifier / Processor, Paradigm’s Premium Wireless Series (PW AMP, PW 600, PW 800, PW Link, PW Soundplay, and PW Soundbar), and MartinLogan’s Wireless Ensemble (Verse, Forte, Unison, Bravado, and Cadence)."


they seem to manage an iOS device use along with calibrated mic. a complete cop out I would suggest you have to have one or other in this day and age. why give up competency of calibrating ... with a calibrated mic just because you want convenience of an app.

in any case am sitting pretty happy here... with the 8802a ... dont need no app or use an uncalibrated mic and its doing a great job on 7.1.5 so not like am left wanting.

but that said I would still look forward to a true flagship from marantz. D&M has done it before and am sure can do it again


have you guys compared the pro kit to the Audyssey app?
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post #14958 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 06:06 PM
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have you guys compared the pro kit to the Audyssey app?
I have now been part of a calibration, helping someone. but given id still go with the same selections of what I would have gone with the pro so personally I see it as a back ward step in my opinion conceding convenience over what the pro kit can do. and the pro kit can do a heck of a LOT ! I really dont give a flying quite honestly whether its a computer or an app. I think most people in this day and age are comfortable with both. unless they are babies that have never used as pc or something and just use smart devices. If marantz could incorporate a calibrated mic with the app I think woudl be a great move forward. I work in industry(all sorts of equipment and devices) and if you told someone you were calibrating something with an uncalibrated device they would laugh at you you certainly wouldnt get any work ! thats for sure. I know these are consumer devices but this is a flagship unit not some box mover special we are expecting a flagship unit with flagship system.

I have it from horses mouth too the move to the app is also just a convenience thing no other reason. I dont mind convenience but am not about to forgo accuracy also as part of the bargain

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I don’t know why you keep saying the consumer mic is not calibrated. It is batch-calibrated, with a batch calibration file built into the processor. While the Pro mic may have a custom calibration, my previous post showing minor differences between the two demonstrates that the calibration is not playing a significant role. I see you did not comment on my analysis—perhaps you didn’t look at it.

That is probably why madhuski is asking whether anyone has made a comparison—objective evaluations are important.
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post #14960 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 06:54 PM
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I don’t know why you keep saying the consumer mic is not calibrated. It is batch-calibrated, with a batch calibration file built into the processor. While the Pro mic may have a custom calibration, my previous post showing minor differences between the two demonstrates that the calibration is not playing a significant role. I see you did not comment on my analysis—perhaps you didn’t look at it.
yes batch calibrated.... nothing to do with individual inaccuracies and why it is SO off.

I know all about your analysis. but I have my very own experience and perspective, knowledge and understanding as a professional engineer to go on.

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post #14961 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 07:59 PM
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yes batch calibrated.... nothing to do with individual inaccuracies and why it is SO off.
How OFF is it?

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post #14962 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:04 PM
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How OFF is it?
I have in practice found off as much as 3-4 db ! but varies across freq range.

ps I am also not alone in this finding, check the thread below,

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html

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post #14963 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:39 PM
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I have in practice found off as much as 3-4 db ! but varies across freq range.

ps I am also not alone in this finding, check the thread below,

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html
Regardless of whether it is off +/- 2dB (as Audyssey claims), you have seen my analysis comparing two calibrations, one with each mic. And you saw the small variations in the results. Are you still claiming that the small variations result in a significant audible difference? Are you sure it is not expectation bias?

And are you now admitting that the consumer mic is really batch calibrated, and not “uncalibrated” as you originally claimed?
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post #14964 of 15355 Old 08-11-2018, 08:50 PM
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Regardless of whether it is off +/- 2dB (as Audyssey claims), you have seen my analysis comparing two calibrations, one with each mic. And you saw the small variations in the results. Are you still claiming that the small variations result in a significant audible difference? Are you sure it is not expectation bias?

And are you now admitting that the consumer mic is really batch calibrated, and not “uncalibrated” as you originally claimed?
look mate am not here to convince you, you are welcome to do what ever with your own analysis as you so wish. I am however not here also to swallow the BS that runs within and the oems like to feed us. Batch calibrated is BS. if you think +/-2db and being upto 4db out is ok and doesnt matter and if you want to swallow that, that is totally and well and truly upto you. you will find all mics are interchangeable ... so much for the flipping batch calibration. if you dont believe me ask jdsmoothie this has been the case for YEARS ! If you understand the very little basics of instrumentation you would understand the variation that EACH instrument can have and the very necessary need to calibrate your instrument if you infact want to do a calibration it makes for an absolute mockery otherwise. IF you dont see or understand that ... that is just fine. As I mentioned I am not here to convince you. however it doesnt actually change the fact of the matter. If you think you are calibrating with a calibrated mic. you arent if you want to kid yourself its "batch calibrated" and suffices for a calibration go for it. but sorry my very own experience, knowledge and understanding states otherwise. I'm not going to go on arguing the toss with you if thats what you want.

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post #14965 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 07:01 AM
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I have in practice found off as much as 3-4 db ! but varies across freq range.
ps I am also not alone in this finding, check the thread below,
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html
Frankly, given the application, I do not see these variations as disqualifying. In fact, I am impressed with how well the FR profiles match. Gross level differences are less important.

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post #14966 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 11:23 AM
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This might be a stupid question but here it goes. Tomorrow I am ordering a second sub and I am currently using a XLR on my current sub. I ordered a second XLR sub cable for my new sub but it will not arrive until the 22nd. I have the current sub plugged into the sub one XLR output. Can I put a RCA sub cable into the sub 2 RCA output to calibrate both subs with Audyessy? So what I am asking is can you use one XLR sub output and RCA sub output at the same time or do you have to use two RCAS or two XLR? Subs are JL F112v2's and I am not running the second sub as a slave I am going to use both of the outputs on the back of 8802a and let audyessy do its thing.

Thanks and sorry of the wordy question.

Dave

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post #14967 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 11:28 AM
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This might be a stupid question but here it goes. Tomorrow I am ordering a second sub and I am currently using a XLR on my current sub. I ordered a second XLR sub cable for my new sub but it will not arrive until the 22nd. I have the current sub plugged into the sub one XLR input. Can I put a RCA sub cable into the sub 2 RCA input to calibrate both subs with Audyessy? So what I am asking is can you use one XLR sub input and RCA sub input at the same time or do you have to use two RCAS or two XLR? Subs are JL F112v2's and I am not running the second sub as a slave I am going to use both of the inputs in 8802a.
You can, but will have to either do another calibration or at least adjust the level of the second sub when you switch cables as XLR has more gain.
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post #14968 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 12:58 PM
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This might be a stupid question but here it goes. Tomorrow I am ordering a second sub and I am currently using a XLR on my current sub. I ordered a second XLR sub cable for my new sub but it will not arrive until the 22nd. I have the current sub plugged into the sub one XLR output. Can I put a RCA sub cable into the sub 2 RCA output to calibrate both subs with Audyessy? So what I am asking is can you use one XLR sub output and RCA sub output at the same time or do you have to use two RCAS or two XLR? Subs are JL F112v2's and I am not running the second sub as a slave I am going to use both of the outputs on the back of 8802a and let audyessy do its thing.

Thanks and sorry of the wordy question.

Dave
Whenever you add a new speaker, including a second sub on the second sub output, Audyssey is automatically disabled and you must run another calibration. You can mix or match the connection types: the Audyssey calibration will compensate for any gain differences caused by using different types of interconnects for any of the speakers, including subwoofers.

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post #14969 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
This might be a stupid question but here it goes. Tomorrow I am ordering a second sub and I am currently using a XLR on my current sub. I ordered a second XLR sub cable for my new sub but it will not arrive until the 22nd. I have the current sub plugged into the sub one XLR output. Can I put a RCA sub cable into the sub 2 RCA output to calibrate both subs with Audyessy? So what I am asking is can you use one XLR sub output and RCA sub output at the same time or do you have to use two RCAS or two XLR? Subs are JL F112v2's and I am not running the second sub as a slave I am going to use both of the outputs on the back of 8802a and let audyessy do its thing.

Thanks and sorry of the wordy question.

Dave
absolutely you can. audyssey will pick up level difference RCA vs XLR and compensate to suit. when you go through setup it will check and ping both subs and them together and ask you to adjust if levels are too low or too high.

all that said subs are all about position position position. so would suggest its very important to position the subs primarily as it will be most help or detrimental to end result, the eq will just be trying to make up for or compensate for any problems created at this stage. so I would put a bit of effort in to positioning if havent does already.

the following harman white paper is a good one that outlines how 2 subs for bang for buck is a great solution. but it depends where you put them
https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf

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post #14970 of 15355 Old 08-12-2018, 02:08 PM
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I definitely planned on running Audyessy again after adding the new sub but maybe I will wait until the 22nd to set the second one up so I do not have to run Audyessy a second time. Thanks for all of the information guys
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