The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #33331 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:12 PM
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I haven't heard a set of horns in a while and I take it from what you guys are saying is its less of the cupped hand sound and better dispersion?
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post #33332 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Oh Keith..... I really wish you could come over sometime and listen to some 2 channel music.

As for yeuch up close... you can walk right up to the speaker and put your ear right next to the compression driver and it's as sweet a sound as can be.
Keith, I normally agree with you on a fair number of topics (though not 100% )

I've always DESPISED horns. I think back to 1990s Klipsch like someone else said. I vowed to never buy a horn or listen to one again unless I was forced at gun point.

I've heard carp's JTR coax comp horns (though not with music). I've also heard another local guys JTR compression horns. I was warned going into it that we are not talking about the typical "yeuch" horns of the past (or the cheap ones we are expecting to hear). So I walked in prepared to hate them regardless of how they sounded.

We are talking about completely different things here. They sound absolutely amazing. So much so that I'm looking into switching to them....I wish we could have gotten around to some music but I already took up a lot of his time. I have no doubt they would sound just as awesome.

Get out there a bit buddy and try to find someone near you with a great hi-end pair. You will be surprised.
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post #33333 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Oh Keith..... I really wish you could come over sometime and listen to some 2 channel music.

As for yeuch up close... you can walk right up to the speaker and put your ear right next to the compression driver and it's as sweet a sound as can be.
Seriously.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
They're great for what they were designed for: going very loud in very big spaces. No argument from me there.
Nope. All aboard the NOPE train. Keith has first class tickets.

"They" are quite capable of being great at everything.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Not like the horns I've heard then. But I am happy to take your word for it. (And Scott's).
That explains... everything.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I mean, what was the point of referencing a speaker from the 90s when it is 2015 now?
I don't even think you know what you're on about anymore.

And that's okay because the rest of us have a hard enough time keeping up with your usual brand of nonsense.

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post #33334 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:35 PM
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Heeeyyyy, slow the roll man....haha!
My comment was intended as being the most sarcastic of the year. The amount of disinformation about horns is just well....sad.
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post #33335 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:37 PM
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Disinformation goes hand in hand around these parts.
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post #33336 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 04:52 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Don't they have horns? Yeuch. Still, they do go loud if that's the main objective.

Your Tannoys and any properly designed concentric speakers have horns loading the tweeter. They (and Kef especially) just know how to do it well. Moreover, many high-end speakers have tweeter waveguides, which are shallow, well-designed horns.
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post #33337 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:06 PM
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gbaby,
Like what you feel like liking and don't be intimidated by all the know it alls around here. Remember, there are no absolutes in life only death.
Thanks for your sentiments. For whatever reason, I have never been the kind of person who believes in monkey see monkey do. I have to make my own decision. I have been in audio too long and I kind of understand the marketing and trade puffing. I was a pioneer of SACD, and it took years for me to understand that the sound is only going to be as good as its recording. I am so independent in my thinking that I was the only person in the barbershop that stated O.J. did it, and I was basing that solely on his actions. I try to use common sense.
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post #33338 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
My comment was intended as being the most sarcastic of the year. The amount of disinformation about horns is just well....sad.
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Disinformation goes hand in hand around these parts.
Keep in mind you guys feel the same way about "Audiophle/traditional speakers" when its really only a matter of preference

Now back to the mudslinging or something else

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post #33339 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by richmagnus View Post
No they won't play as loud as a JBL pro system ,but they will have better detail and accuracy,unless you want to replicate a commercial cinema.
Proof positive you have never heard any of the speakers being discussed. You seem to think pro cinema is the same as a PA speaker....wrong.

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Disinformation goes hand in hand around these parts.
+10

Anyone who says horns are only for filling large venues with loud volumes has not listened to any well designed compression drivers and horns. I would love to see the faces of the AVS elitist in some blind listening tests when the curtain drops and they picked an ugly black speaker with no grills. Maybe they should drop into some GTG threads where high-efficiency speakers wiped the floor with the competition on music and movies.
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post #33340 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:19 PM
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@gbaby

Regardless of @bguzman misguided comment, people here are not trying to bully you or bad mouth your equipment and choices. No one has said anything derogatory. On the contrary most of us have agreed that DSU for music is 100% preference. What we are trying to do is educate you on Atmos and help you with our obtained knowledge (especially as it pertains to movies). No one is professing to be a "know it all" or an absolute expert in all things Atmos. What people are trying to tell you is that you didn't hear Atmos correctly due to setup. If you want to make your own decision, everyone is encouraging you to make it based on facts and multiple listens as opposed to on just one shotty demo. You'll do yourself an injustice otherwise and make a sweeping judgement on a technology that likely will blow your mind if you give it a fair listen. Even on a modestly designed system.
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post #33341 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Thanks for your sentiments. For whatever reason, I have never been the kind of person who believes in monkey see monkey do. I have to make my own decision. I have been in audio too long and I kind of understand the marketing and trade puffing. I was a pioneer of SACD, and it took years for me to understand that the sound is only going to be as good as its recording. I am so independent in my thinking that I was the only person in the barbershop that stated O.J. did it, and I was basing that solely on his actions. I try to use common sense.
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post #33342 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Proof positive you have never heard any of the speakers being discussed. You seem to think pro cinema is the same as a PA speaker....wrong.



+10

Anyone who says horns are only for filling large venues with loud volumes has not listened to any well designed compression drivers and horns. I would love to see the faces of the AVS elitist in some blind listening tests when the curtain drops and they picked an ugly black speaker with no grills. Maybe they should drop into some GTG threads where high-efficiency speakers wiped the floor with the competition on music and movies.
Still maintaining the mine is better than yours and its a competition my last crank it up was back in 86 And elitist ! really! Do you guys really feel where snobs looking down on horns or just can't deal with the fact there just not for everyone
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post #33343 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
I am not missing the point as I know they are not comparable. If anything, we are misunderstanding each other. My purpose in wanting to demo Atmos was to determine if it is so good, that I need to start planning on incorporating it in my system for the future. However, from what I've heard, I can just stay the course and enjoy my SP3. From my unscientific test, I have concluded that those hi end processors do distinguish themselves sonically over mid range Atmos processors. It would be nice if a magazine would write on this subject. If the magazine, "Stereophile Guide To Home Theater" was still in business, it would get done as they use to even compare products within the same price range and write about their sonic traits. They would also compare expensive products against less expensive products to determine their worth or value, whichever was appropriate. Reviews nowadays are somewhat homogenized. Please do not take my comments offensively as I am only writing as a consumer who loves home theater and music, but likes to be practical and pragmatic when I spend money on it. You see, I'm glad I never purchased that "El Cassette when it came out years ago. By the way I agree one hundred percent on you 2 channel analysis. And, the reason I purchased the SP3 is so it will serve a dual role, music and home theater.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o
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Ah yes, the sounds of pure ignorance. You can tell when someone hasn't experienced or just doesn't know that horns can sound good and even better than that usual store brand stuff that's hocked off as hi-fi.

That's from 'Boogie Nights' - outrageously funny flick based on the porn industry during the disco years, in Los Angeles.
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post #33344 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 05:40 PM
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Still maintaining the mine is better than yours and its a competition my last crank it up was back in 86 And elitist ! really! Do you guys really feel where snobs looking down on horns or just can't deal with the fact there just not for everyone
I said horns and high-efficiency speakers. Did I say my speakers or JBL 4722 specifically? Do tell what high-efficiency speakers you have heard in a home theater in the last couple of years? Reaction Audio, Power Sound Audio, JTR, JBL Pro Cinema, Klipsch Pro Cinema, JBL M2? The reality is that most of the comments here are based on ignorance and misinformation. Ignorant as in not knowing or not having heard in person, not dumb so please don't anyone take offense. Go back and read my posts. I have been touting high-efficiency speakers. Not the ones I own or my brand specifically. Go drop into any of the owner threads of the brands listed above and do some reading. Testimony after testimony. GTG after GTG with these brands whipping up on the competition.
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post #33345 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I'm sure it's a new speaker but it's still a small conventional speaker with little drivers and dome tweeters. It will never live up to the capability of a proper cinema sized JBL Pro type system. Ever.
I'm open minded, so I'm curious, because I'm willing to believe that I might learn something if I take the time to understand the perspectives and opinions of others.

So, your position is that JBL Pro type speakers that are properly tuned to play reference level from 20 Hz to 20 kHz at reference level in a 2,000 - 3,000 cubic foot room will be more capable than another system comprised of speakers which have smaller drivers in the floor and overhead speakers but are still properly tuned to play reference level from 20 Hz to 20 kHz?

I've not been a big fan of horn speakers, but mainly because I did some extensive listening back in the 90's with many speaker brands, and the Klipsch were my least favorite of the bunch (also the only horn speakers of the bunch). Since that time, I've (perhaps unfairly) equated that undesirable sonic quality with horns.

By the way, what's the retail price of the JBL's? I'm seeing about $1,600 for one JBL 4722, is that about right? If so, I guess you're out of the realm of reality for this enthusiast. That said, the MK Sound S300's reportedly go for $3,500 each, so as long as I'm in this fantasy world where spending $20,000 on speakers...

I'd like to better understand where you're coming from. Is it the character of the sound coming from the compression driver/tweeter that you like vs. that of a dome tweeter?

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Originally Posted by richmagnus View Post
The new 300's are in a different league compared to the original 150's
From this review by Dave Vaughn in June 2014, it definitely appears that the 300's are shooting much higher than the S-150's that came before it (which were $1,500 / pair). Those speakers were no slouch, as another writer for Sound & Vision wrote in a review of that system in 1997.

However, it would seem that it's a matter of taking a system that is perhaps a 9.5/10 and taking it to 9.7/10. For some, that increase is more than worth any expense. For others, not so much. Is it possible that we're discussing miniscule advantages, and not "night and day" differences?

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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I've always DESPISED horns. I think back to 1990s Klipsch like someone else said. I vowed to never buy a horn or listen to one again unless I was forced at gun point.

I've heard carp's JTR coax comp horns (though not with music). I've also heard another local guys JTR compression horns. I was warned going into it that we are not talking about the typical "yeuch" horns of the past (or the cheap ones we are expecting to hear). So I walked in prepared to hate them regardless of how they sounded.

We are talking about completely different things here. They sound absolutely amazing. So much so that I'm looking into switching to them....I wish we could have gotten around to some music but I already took up a lot of his time. I have no doubt they would sound just as awesome.

Get out there a bit buddy and try to find someone near you with a great hi-end pair. You will be surprised.
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
@BigScreen the horse is dead. Everyone enjoy whatever speakers you have. No need to discuss it further in the Atmos thread. There are plenty of threads on people who have migrated to high-efficiency speakers vs traditional.

I agree that sound is subjective. Yeah, the JBL M2 (horn) is definitely known for it's poor fidelity industry wide Most horns people have heard are the entry level Klipsch, which can be a harsh and fatiguing speaker to a lot of people. That stereotype is widely held and was my actual thoughts for many years after owning Klipsch RFs. It was my biggest fear when I bought the 4722s without being able to hear and demo them.

Last post for me on the topic, we can discuss in other threads. I want to avoid making any more folk's ignore lists.
So, now it seems that we've moved from the size of midrange drivers to the type of tweeters. So it's not the size of the midrange anymore?

I guess I'm stuck on the idea that as long as the system as a whole can reproduce the entire frequency range (near-)flat at reference levels without distortion, how they go about doing it is largely a matter of choice by the manufacturer and a preference on the characteristic of the high range (tweeter/horn) that is most pleasing to the buyer.

I'm fine with the fact that some people prefer horns and some prefer traditional domes, but preference is different than measurable performance, and that's what got this conversation started in the first place. I would welcome the chance to audition these fine horn-based speakers that you guys are happy with. Maybe it would make me a believer, too.

Perhaps this makes me guilty of pummeling a deceased equine, but the purposes of people here trying to determine whether they have to put an 8" speaker in/on their ceiling or suffer the consequences of unsatisfactory results are served by drawing a distinction between preference and performance.

For myself, I'll be quite happy if I can have a speaker that reaches down to 80 Hz (-3dB) and has a tweeter that matches well with my floor level speakers.

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post #33346 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post
I'm open minded, so I'm curious, because I'm willing to believe that I might learn something if I take the time to understand the perspectives and opinions of others.

So, your position is that JBL Pro type speakers that are properly tuned to play reference level from 20 Hz to 20 kHz at reference level in a 2,000 - 3,000 cubic foot room will be more capable than another system comprised of speakers which have smaller drivers in the floor and overhead speakers but are still properly tuned to play reference level from 20 Hz to 20 kHz?

I've not been a big fan of horn speakers, but mainly because I did some extensive listening back in the 90's with many speaker brands, and the Klipsch were my least favorite of the bunch (also the only horn speakers of the bunch). Since that time, I've (perhaps unfairly) equated that undesirable sonic quality with horns.

By the way, what's the retail price of the JBL's? I'm seeing about $1,600 for one JBL 4722, is that about right? If so, I guess you're out of the realm of reality for this enthusiast. That said, the MK Sound S300's reportedly go for $3,500 each, so as long as I'm in this fantasy world where spending $20,000 on speakers...

I'd like to better understand where you're coming from. Is it the character of the sound coming from the compression driver/tweeter that you like vs. that of a dome tweeter?



From this review by Dave Vaughn in June 2014, it definitely appears that the 300's are shooting much higher than the S-150's that came before it (which were $1,500 / pair). Those speakers were no slouch, as another writer for Sound & Vision wrote in a review of that system in 1997.

However, it would seem that it's a matter of taking a system that is perhaps a 9.5/10 and taking it to 9.7/10. For some, that increase is more than worth any expense. For others, not so much. Is it possible that we're discussing miniscule advantages, and not "night and day" differences?





So, now it seems that we've moved from the size of midrange drivers to the type of tweeters. So it's not the size of the midrange anymore?

I guess I'm stuck on the idea that as long as the system as a whole can reproduce the entire frequency range (near-)flat at reference levels without distortion, how they go about doing it is largely a matter of choice by the manufacturer and a preference on the characteristic of the high range (tweeter/horn) that is most pleasing to the buyer.

I'm fine with the fact that some people prefer horns and some prefer traditional domes, but preference is different than measurable performance, and that's what got this conversation started in the first place. I would welcome the chance to audition these fine horn-based speakers that you guys are happy with. Maybe it would make me a believer, too.

Perhaps this makes me guilty of pummeling a deceased equine, but the purposes of people here trying to determine whether they have to put an 8" speaker in/on their ceiling or suffer the consequences of unsatisfactory results are served by drawing a distinction between preference and performance.

For myself, I'll be quite happy if I can have a speaker that reaches down to 80 Hz (-3dB) and has a tweeter that matches well with my floor level speakers.
The conversation has actually come back to where it started. From the beginning, I have been referring to high-efficiency speakers when I posted the recommendation for the SCS 8 as Atmos speakers. A comment was made that the SCS were big and too ugly for most rooms. Fair enough - they are The driver size kinda spun off from that initial discussion with some other posters, but it was my intention to keep it within the realm of the high-efficiency line of speakers. However, I did a poor job keeping that focus through the posts as it went more toward driver size. All of the high-efficiency speakers are compression driver/horn format and come in 8" and up. The JTR slanted 8, Reaction Audio CX-8, JBL SCS 8, PSA MT-110, etc. are the "types" of Atmos speakers I was arguing for - albeit very poorly obviously.

As far as performance in a typical room, I think that high-e speakers will perform better than the typical smaller woofer/tweeter sub 90db sensitivity speaker. Almost all of the high-e brands will have woofers that are 10" to 15" for bed channels, so we can maintain the larger driver argument is still valid. The are a lot of people who have made the switch to these brands and all of the comments are the same. The difference, especially with movies, is huge. They are equally impressive with music, but my room is for movies, concerts, and gaming with no 2 channel stuff.

The JBL 4722 can be had for $1150 each delivered. I chose them because of the rave reviews that they received from some very trusted members/friends here on AVS in the 4722 dedicated thread. I also wanted to have an AT screen setup which is what the 4722 is designed for. I liked them so much I went with 7 of them. Not for power output but because I wanted a perfect sonic match all around. I never listen above reference so their power output was never a consideration. It was all about the fidelity and dynamics. I totally get these speakers are huge and ugly. Very few can accommodate them. That is why I never was touting the 4722 specifically.

I owned a complete set of Klipsch and grew to hate them due to their fatigue and harshness. Trust me, I understand the linking of "horns" with Klipsch. I was fearful I would hate the JBLs but everyone assured me they were not the same - they were 100% correct. Klipsch is a love hate relationship. There is typically no middle ground on them, especially the RF line which is what most people have heard. I am not a fan but others love them. Sound will always be subjective.

Hope I answered some of your questions.

Chris
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post #33347 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 06:58 PM
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There's just simply no denying object based audio and is not about like or dislike,quite simply because its not a "gimmick" but actual discrete sounds placed within a 3d environment done by a very sophisticated algorithm! And were not know it all's, just a few guys pioneering the SoTA in home cinema and learning a lot on the way
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Regardless of @bguzman misguided comment, people here are not trying to bully you or bad mouth your equipment and choices. No one has said anything derogatory. On the contrary most of us have agreed that DSU for music is 100% preference. What we are trying to do is educate you on Atmos and help you with our obtained knowledge (especially as it pertains to movies). No one is professing to be a "know it all" or an absolute expert in all things Atmos. What people are trying to tell you is that you didn't hear Atmos correctly due to setup. If you want to make your own decision, everyone is encouraging you to make it based on facts and multiple listens as opposed to on just one shotty demo. You'll do yourself an injustice otherwise and make a sweeping judgement on a technology that likely will blow your mind if you give it a fair listen. Even on a modestly designed system.
I never said anything about bullying and I'm sorry if I offended any of the fine members of this forum. I just feel that gbaby is free to like what he likes. He states that he has been into audio for many years. I think he knows enough to know what he likes as he stated. I have an Atmos setup and I think it is the best my HT has sounded so I am not an Atmos foe. To each his own, that's all I'm saying.

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post #33348 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 07:46 PM
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High efficiency loudspeakers

Tom Danley's explanation of why high dynamic capability is important: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post17409024
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post #33349 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 07:56 PM
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I think sitting pretty close to horns is going to give a really horrid sound personally. They're OK for what they were designed for of course - going really loud in large spaces. But up close... yeuch.
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They're great for what they were designed for: going very loud in very big spaces. No argument from me there.
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I haven't heard a set of horns in a while and I take it from what you guys are saying is its less of the cupped hand sound and better dispersion?
I've been sitting this one out, but tough to do that when it's clear many have an uninformed view of horn speakers.
If we want to discuss accuracy and fidelity, then how can I not discuss the M2?

If these measurements were simply on axis, few speakers on the planet would compare to the M2, but these measurements are of the entire 60 deg horizontal and 20 deg vertical listening window AND these are at a 1/20 resolution, not some BS 1/3 smoothing that makes any measurement look good.
They are considered by many well respected industry professionals to be the most neutral and transparent speaker ever made in the professional studio monitor marketplace.
They have big drivers. A 15" in driver and a 3" compression driver mounted to a big horn.
I'll be more than happy to look at comparable measurements that show a more accurate speaker, but I think I'll be waiting some time for that. There is no distance to the horn that these don't sound amazing. My only point is to demonstrate that not only can horns be good, they happen to represented in a world class studio monitor that is arguably one of the finest speakers on the planet.
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
My comment was intended as being the most sarcastic of the year..
Yes, I know. So was mine
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post #33350 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've been sitting this one out, but tough to do that when it's clear many have an uninformed view of horn speakers.
If we want to discuss accuracy and fidelity, then how can I not discuss the M2?

If these measurements were simply on axis, few speakers on the planet would compare to the M2, but these measurements are of the entire 60 deg horizontal and 20 deg vertical listening window AND these are at a 1/20 resolution, not some BS 1/3 smoothing that makes any measurement look good.
They are considered by many well respected industry professionals to be the most neutral and transparent speaker ever made in the professional studio monitor marketplace.
They have big drivers. A 15" in driver and a 3" compression driver mounted to a big horn.
I'll be more than happy to look at comparable measurements that show a more accurate speaker, but I think I'll be waiting some time for that. There is no distance to the horn that these don't sound amazing. My only point is to demonstrate that not only can horns be good, they happen to represented in a world class studio monitor that is arguably one of the finest speakers on the planet.

Yes, I know. So was mine
Those are indeed nice
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post #33351 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've been sitting this one out, but tough to do that when it's clear many have an uninformed view of horn speakers.
If we want to discuss accuracy and fidelity, then how can I not discuss the M2?

If these measurements were simply on axis, few speakers on the planet would compare to the M2, but these measurements are of the entire 60 deg horizontal and 20 deg vertical listening window AND these are at a 1/20 resolution, not some BS 1/3 smoothing that makes any measurement look good.
They are considered by many well respected industry professionals to be the most neutral and transparent speaker ever made in the professional studio monitor marketplace.
They have big drivers. A 15" in driver and a 3" compression driver mounted to a big horn.
I'll be more than happy to look at comparable measurements that show a more accurate speaker, but I think I'll be waiting some time for that. There is no distance to the horn that these don't sound amazing. My only point is to demonstrate that not only can horns be good, they happen to represented in a world class studio monitor that is arguably one of the finest speakers on the planet.

Yes, I know. So was mine
What does JBL recommend as the matching surround and IN-ceiling Atmos speakers to go with the M2?

When you say that is the entire 60 degree horizontal, as you saying that it measures that flat form -30 to +30 degrees. I need very wide dispersion in-ceiling speakers for both horizontal and vertical planes due to my 7.5' ceiling height. They have anything for that?
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post #33352 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 09:06 PM
 
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Thumbs up Jbl m2

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
♦ Hey, those are the same as in your avatar!

________

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Name:	JBL Professional M2 Master Reference Studio Monitor Loudspeaker.jpg
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________

www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRs7vdYkcI

Last edited by NorthSky; 11-16-2015 at 09:24 PM. Reason: tube
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post #33353 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
What does JBL recommend as the matching surround and IN-ceiling Atmos speakers to go with the M2?

When you say that is the entire 60 degree horizontal, as you saying that it measures that flat form -30 to +30 degrees. I need very wide dispersion in-ceiling speakers for both horizontal and vertical planes due to my 7.5' ceiling height. They have anything for that?
JBL Synthesis has a series of slim line array speakers that probably could be used mounted to the ceiling or their SCS coaxial cinema surrounds as used in their CEDIA demo. I don't know if they have any recommended in-ceiling or in-wall speakers per se.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #33354 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 10:11 PM
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I see we had some rabble rousing in here today. After closer inspection it was just regular rousing with DSU applied. Carry on.
bguzman, audiofan1 and grtuck like this.

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post #33355 of 55439 Old 11-16-2015, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Proof positive you have never heard any of the speakers being discussed. You seem to think pro cinema is the same as a PA speaker....wrong.







+10



Anyone who says horns are only for filling large venues with loud volumes has not listened to any well designed compression drivers and horns. I would love to see the faces of the AVS elitist in some blind listening tests when the curtain drops and they picked an ugly black speaker with no grills. Maybe they should drop into some GTG threads where high-efficiency speakers wiped the floor with the competition on music and movies.

I've heard JBL synthesis several times, I've also heard several JBL pro cinema systems. never said JBL were a PA system. Very good in fact.

My comment was regarding my personal preference.

Have you heard a properly set up MK 300 system?
In fact a Steinway system would be my personal choice hands down.


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post #33356 of 55439 Old 11-17-2015, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigScreen View Post
There's something to be said for "bigger is better" and some might say that size matters in certain situations, but there comes a point when enough is enough, and anything more is just for show. If large drivers makes one feel better about their system, more power to them. But, in a properly configured and tuned system, I do not agree that larger drivers in floor or overhead speakers will make a difference.
There are two reasons why one would want to use a large driver:
1. Higher SPL
2. Higher directivity

The "right" choice depends on SPL requirements and desired directivity in a specific room and all rooms are different.

A 8" driver will get you to 105dB SPL at 80Hz in 1m distance, a 5" won't.
Directivity should be as high as possible to avoid illuminating the room too much. If there are several seats that should be equally illuminated then a wide dispersion design is desirable. At the same time you need to go to great lengths in order to absorb all that extra energy spilled out into the room.

Most consumers don't know how their speakers perform because manufacturers don't supply much useful data, e.g. high resolution polar plots or distortion/compression measurements.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

Last edited by markus767; 11-17-2015 at 02:47 AM.
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post #33357 of 55439 Old 11-17-2015, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Most consumers don't know how their speakers perform because manufacturers don't supply much useful data, e.g. high resolution polar plots or distortion/compression measurements.
Agree totally. Although "most" is too modest, I think you could easily count those who do.

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post #33358 of 55439 Old 11-17-2015, 01:06 AM
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Did you ever try putting speakers where Atmos has them now and just moving surround channel information there?

I have... I have even tried extraction of common or inverse information from side surrounds to put up to... And no matter what... Getting some extra speakers up there do make a quite noticable difference.

So, don't give ALL the credit to the new format - you could have had a bit part of the same experience already before...

Not saying there isn't any gains in the new formats, but we have to be realistic too or we'll delude ourselves where it's not applicable.
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Have I ever put my surrounds and rears over my head...Hmmm...nope. I guess it would be interesting but seems kinda weird...No action on sides or in the back of you but all overhead and F/C/R.

I can definitely tell you that what is being played overhead in DSU is different than whats coming out of my sides and surrounds. I know this because for 4 days straight, I played the same 8 clips over and over and over and over and over on a loop with different speakers plugged in and others not and so on. I really wanted to see if the overheads were actually playing different sound or they were just reproducing what was coming out of the surrounds and rears.

Saying all that, I didn't think once to set my system up for a regular 7.1 and switch the banana plugs so that TF was Surround and TR were Rears...I will do this just so when someone else ask me the same question, I would have an answer not based on speculation but on my own personal experience.

Given that, IMHO, DSU has upped the bar just as 5.1 did to 2.1, It would be very interesting to see that all we had to do was put our surrounds and rears in the ceilings and we would have had 3D audio long time ago as you have eluded to.

Question, since it is confirmed that height presence channels have made a huge impact on audio (home), how would you rate a 7.1.4 system over a 7.1 system with the surround and rears overhead on a scale from 1 to 10?
I believe reference is made to an experiment where you would put some surround info up (inverted or not) while at the same time leaving the ear-level surrounds active as well.

The past 12 months (still in my pre-Atmos phase) I am doing a similar thing with my LCR channels (lifting and adding L/R out-of-phase info to the front heights) and the effect on the sound is impressive.
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post #33359 of 55439 Old 11-17-2015, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Keith, I normally agree with you on a fair number of topics (though not 100% )

I've always DESPISED horns. I think back to 1990s Klipsch like someone else said. I vowed to never buy a horn or listen to one again unless I was forced at gun point.

I've heard carp's JTR coax comp horns (though not with music). I've also heard another local guys JTR compression horns. I was warned going into it that we are not talking about the typical "yeuch" horns of the past (or the cheap ones we are expecting to hear). So I walked in prepared to hate them regardless of how they sounded.

We are talking about completely different things here. They sound absolutely amazing. So much so that I'm looking into switching to them....I wish we could have gotten around to some music but I already took up a lot of his time. I have no doubt they would sound just as awesome.

Get out there a bit buddy and try to find someone near you with a great hi-end pair. You will be surprised.
OK, thanks. I have to admit it's been a while, although more recent than Scott's "90s", since I listened to any horns and they may well have progressed. What I recall hearing was lumpy frequency response and searing treble. Maybe the ones I heard were atypical? Or maybe just old designs.
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post #33360 of 55439 Old 11-17-2015, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't even think you know what you're on about anymore.
It was you, not me, who referenced the 90s when talking about speaker design. I am guessing you must believe there has been no advance in speaker design or technology in the last two decades. Are your speakers 90's designs and you're just trying to defend them? There's no need to defend them - if you like them that is all that matters.
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