The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1243 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37261 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
And they all suck and overrated. Seriously. I like electronic music but all of them? Talk about bland, forgettable "music".
Yeah, but it's about time that elevators got better music, with some overhead effects isn’t it? Going up ... going down... it'll be a whole new experience.
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post #37262 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I thought I did?

Anyway...

Chemical Brothers, The Prodigy, Crystal Method.... three MUCH better choices.
Now you're talking. And Daft Punk, and M8.
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post #37263 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
My main point was covering the minimal configuration of Dolby Height speakers for most home theater setups. You could certainly go larger -- I have a set of wide surrounds but am pretty maxed out at 9.1.6 for my ultimate man cave. Maybe in 7 years when I move to the Caribbean or some other place warm -- I can go hog wild.
Yes. About the height speakers. In your earlier post, you referred to 6 overheads (3 pairs) as being 'ideal', now you call that 'the minimal configuration'. Not the same thing in my book. The minimal configuration is one pair. And for getting the maximum of Atmos at your home, you need all 5 pairs of overheads (at respectively 30, 55, 90, 125, and 150 degrees elevation). Unfortunately, the maximum current (affordable) AVRs/processors allow is only two pairs of overheads.

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post #37264 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
? He is saying that the same sound can be processed in different ways. That makes perfect sense to me. We could have the sound of a bell, for example. Process that sound with reverb, and without reverb. That's the same sound, processed differently.
The sound is what leaves the speakers, or even what the speakers are told to reproduce even if it's in the electric domain still. If processed differently it won't be the same sound. ( I'm amazed that this needs to be written, it ought to be obvious. )

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post #37265 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Relative. 28 million dollars probably paid for the catering on Transformers 4. That movie took over $1 BILLION. I picked the best example that Auro has to offer. And it's still peanuts. My bad - I should have picked the Engine-Earz Experiment as my example
I don't understand why the obsession about money. People should obsess about quality.

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post #37266 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
The sound is what leaves the speakers, or even what the speakers are told to reproduce even if it's in the electric domain still. If processed differently it won't be the same sound. ( I'm amazed that this needs to be written, it ought to be obvious. )
ISWYM now. It's a semantic difference. We are both right.
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post #37267 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 02:45 AM
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I don't understand why the obsession about money. People should obsess about quality.
There's no objective measure of quality in this context. The point I was making was to compare the success of Atmos with the success of Auro. In that definition of success, commercial success is what I was discussing, not the putative comparative quality of the output. And by this definition, in this context, a billion-dollar movie beats some "obscure" music content.

I am not commenting on the 'quality' of the music, or indeed that of the movie - just their commercial success.
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post #37268 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Given, Transformers will definitely reach more people and generate more money, but as mentioned, as far as DJs go, Tiesto is at the top of the heap. He was the third highest paid DJ in 2014 and made 28 million dollars, doing over 300 shows. Only David Guetta (30m) and Calvin Harris (66m !) made more.

2015:
Calvin Harris = $66m
David Guetta = $37m
Tiesto = $36m
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
And they all suck and overrated. Seriously. I like electronic music but all of them? Talk about bland, forgettable "music".
Couldn't agree more! Talk about inversed proportional... I just don't get it what people love about these Tomorowland deejays.

I like my Kraftwerk and minimal synth though!

It's the room, stupid!

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post #37269 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Why stop at 7 speakers for the horizontal pane? For the cinema Dolby specifies a minimum of 1 speaker every 30 degrees for optimal Atmos. For an ideal Atmos set-up at home I would therefore at least include wides and 2nd pair of side surrounds.
Which amounts to 11 listener level speakers. IMO, for a tipical home set-up, 7.1.4 is very good. 9.1.6 is perfectly adequate for a 2-row HT. After that, the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard! Maybe a pair of screen heights could be a good investement if you have a large projection screen, but for the rest?

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post #37270 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post
I will try just one more time to explain what is going on when you switch from FH to TF and RH to TR.



The rendering is not making the image narrower or wrong etc. It is trying to put the sound in the right place with the speakers it has available. If you happen to prefer the sound in the wrong place by telling it the wrong speaker position, that is your choice.
This is what I am thinking. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With height speakers set as height, it is making the image narrower than if the speakers were designated as tops; it is also making it more spatially correct.

It is using the height layer speakers to image sounds in the right location. If the sound is supposed to be in front of the MLP closely related to the top front location with a height setup, the renderer will keep the majority of the sound in the FH and send a portion of the sound to the TR or RH. This will pull the location of the sound into the room and to a more accurate location.

What also happens, at least as I hear it, is that the overhead sounds are more diffuse and not as direct or powerful.

I started with FH and RH. The Atmos effect was more prevalent when designating the height as tops. Sound object location was off. I now have FH and TR. I switch between designating fronts as heights and tops and don't hear much difference when listening to regular content. I'm probably better off with the fronts set as height to get correct object positioning.
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post #37271 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GXMnow View Post
I will try just one more time to explain what is going on when you switch from FH to TF and RH to TR.

The rendering is not making the image narrower or wrong etc. It is trying to put the sound in the right place with the speakers it has available. If you happen to prefer the sound in the wrong place by telling it the wrong speaker position, that is your choice...

I have no problem with experimenting and seeing what you like, but to say that using FH is somehow doing something wrong is just bad information...
I get what you are saying.

Consider:
Dolby has put out guidelines for Top Speaker placement and their maximum angles for Tops are 30 and 150 degrees from MLP. With an 8' ceiling, the spread from front to back is a maximum of 16'9". I am assuming that anything that is within the 30/150 degree placement would render correctly to overheads? The spread is even further if your ceilings are 10' high then the maximum spread is 23'8".

What if:
Someone were placing their speakers at traditional height locations because they were not able to put them in/on ceiling but those locations still fell within 30/150 degrees from MLP.
Given this scenario, would the object be better represented by designating the FH/RH speaker locations as TF+TR in the AVR?

Do we know what the correct angle are for FH/RH?
Seems like if one is using FH/RH then those speakers should be quite far from the MLP?
I understand that their are many people with huge and spacious HT so I can't just generalize. I do apologize for that.

Would it be safe to say that if you have your speakers designated as FH+RH AND they fall well within the TF+TR parameters then the image will shrink as the renderer would assume that the speakers are further back than they are?

Just trying to fully understand. Thanks for your input on this subject.



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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
I wonder if this is speaker/room dependant or receiver dependant, because I've gotten the exact opposite result.
Using FH/RH settings over TF/TR in my setup gives me a more spacious and esp. extended, soundfield with my 3040.
But, I am also using just Height mounted speakers and not in-ceiling
I guess it would depend on the mix content. It seems clear now that FH+RH is intended for those who have long rooms. How long is your room?

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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
That is a clear explanation.

But what about this:

Imagine a sound intended by the mixer to be right above the center of the screen at FH elevation (30 degrees). If you have a FH overhead pair installed, this sound will be pan-potted right in-between those two. But if you only have TM overhead speakers installed, this same sound will jump to right above your head. The Atmos renderer will not pan-pot this sound between center speaker and TM speakers. That is, if I understand the explanation given by @sdurani a few pages back correctly. Did I?
So objects and channels don't phantom? Doesn't seem like it...

OK someone PM me about how to get the damn Test Tones! Arrrrgg.
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post #37272 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pletwals View Post
Which amounts to 11 listener level speakers. IMO, for a tipical home set-up, 7.1.4 is very good. 9.1.6 is perfectly adequate for a 2-row HT. After that, the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard! Maybe a pair of screen heights could be a good investement if you have a large projection screen, but for the rest?
With a 7.1.4 lay-out, Atmos only adds height to a standard 7.1 channel bed. If you want to enjoy the increased precision of object based sound playback, you need to have more speakers in the horizontal pane. The benefit of such higher granularity does not depend on the number of seats/rows IMO.

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post #37273 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 05:05 AM
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I guess it would depend on the mix content. It seems clear now that FH+RH is intended for those who have long rooms. How long is your room?
The room is 23x23
That's why I mentioned it, I'm sure, like a lot of things with sound, that the room will still play a part in what settings work best. And like one of the above posts, while it still seems, when using FH/RH that "fly overs" seem to start sooner and last longer using these settings in my room, RH compared to TR has much less of an impact on this as FH compared to TF does for me. But honestly, that may simply be that there's normally so much more going on for sound in the front as opposed to the rear in general.
It's a shame that the 3040 won't allow me to do FH & TM, I'm thinking, that would even be better, but oh well....use what you've got....
I may experiment with just TM over the weekend, but I'm guessing my room will be too big for just that, plus even with the old PLzII, Front Heights really did work well in my room, I'll probably miss them just as a matter of principle.

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post #37274 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
The room is 23x23
That's why I mentioned it, I'm sure, like a lot of things with sound, that the room will still play a part in what settings work best. And like one of the above posts, while it still seems, when using FH/RH that "fly overs" seem to start sooner and last longer using these settings in my room, RH compared to TR has much less of an impact on this as FH compared to TF does for me. But honestly, that may simply be that there's normally so much more going on for sound in the front as opposed to the rear in general.
It's a shame that the 3040 won't allow me to do FH & TM, I'm thinking, that would even be better, but oh well....use what you've got....
I may experiment with just TM over the weekend, but I'm guessing my room will be too big for just that, plus even with the old PLzII, Front Heights really did work well in my room, I'll probably miss them just as a matter of principle.
Seems so interesting that a sound would start sooner and last longer. I would assume that no matter the speaker designation, the sound would start and stop at the exact same time...well of course the small delays caused by distance but the AVR's calibration features should correct all of that.

I have experienced the sound starting and finishing in different locations based on designation in AVR but never really experienced any delays or shortened lengths. This stuff is soooo interesting!

BTW, your setup is Bananas!! No wonder heights are working for you so well. You have them all over the place!!

Curious about overhead sounds. When I hooked up Heights, the overhead sounds never really sounded overhead but rather higher above. (OCD kicked in one day and I wanted to see for myself.)

Do you have access to the Encounter Demo? If so can you hear the Arc from side to side? That blew my mind!

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post #37275 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 05:48 AM
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Once you guys figure out how many speakers you need, where to put them and what levels they should be at, I recommend watching Goosebumps. A fun movie with an EXCELLENT Atmos track. Well placed and fits the screen action perfectly. A hint of what's to come once sound mixers get used to this awesome format.

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post #37276 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mumps View Post
Once you guys figure out how many speakers you need, where to put them and what levels they should be at, I recommend watching Goosebumps. A fun movie with an EXCELLENT Atmos track. Well placed and fits the screen action perfectly. A hint of what's to come once sound mixers get used to this awesome format.

Chris
Got this one for the family and we watched it last Saturday. Was pleased with the sound track. Movie was funny in parts but I was unfamiliar with the characters.

I probably need to slow down with the buying of BD and figure out how what subscription is best for renting. How can you tell if Atmos movies are available for rental and what's the best way to?

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post #37277 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 06:30 AM
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Hi

I can only see there is only one upcoming atmos bluray which is hunger game part 2. Other than that, atmos release are all UHD blu Ray . Do I miss something else ? What about the revenant?
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post #37278 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 06:35 AM
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Got this one for the family and we watched it last Saturday. Was pleased with the sound track. Movie was funny in parts but I was unfamiliar with the characters.

I probably need to slow down with the buying of BD and figure out how what subscription is best for renting. How can you tell if Atmos movies are available for rental and what's the best way to?
Hit and miss. Some Redbox movies have Dolby Atmos (ride along metadata) and others don't. Lionsgate rentals from Redbox have zero Dolby Atmos - conscious decision on their part from what I've heard.

3D Bluray Rental is probably the best rental company for the original Bluray discs with trailers and all added content. $6.99/month, one rental at a time and two rentals max per month. Prices go up from there.

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post #37279 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
I would install the in-ceiling, at least 18" off the back wall and then 9' from their to TF. 10' is from left to right is a little too far so bring them in about 6"-8" either way. I think that ~8'-9' would be ideal or in-line with Mains if your Mains are at the recommended 22-30 degrees from MLP. Designate them as TF+TR in your AVR and you will be set.

Just know that sound that supposed to be directly overhead, will be forward of the MLP if you have your couch on the wall. If you can bring your couch off the wall a little, then even better.
Hi Ron, If the inceiling are 18" off the back wall can they still be designated as TR. They will likely be inline with MLP and maybe even ahead of MLP, if MLP is 12" from back wall. The other option is to do something like this.





This was based on the suggestion that FH is likely going to be better given the configuration of my room. This way, all 4 speakers are on an edge of the corner angled to point to MLP.

FH is angled to MLP also because the angle betweeen MLP and FH is 21 degree which is too lower than the 30 degree recommendation. Thus i thought angling them would help.

Any thoughts?
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post #37280 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 06:56 AM
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Got this one for the family and we watched it last Saturday. Was pleased with the sound track. Movie was funny in parts but I was unfamiliar with the characters.

I probably need to slow down with the buying of BD and figure out how what subscription is best for renting. How can you tell if Atmos movies are available for rental and what's the best way to?
Netflix - I have yet to get a movie that has a Atmos mix on it for sale without one from Netflix. Of course with some releases you have to wait a month for them to become available. I've got Pan coming in a few days, curious how it sounds and if its as bad as some of the reviews I can always skip around and send it back Even with it dropping to $10, I just couldn't be that big of Atmos slut, made that mistake a few times already with some other purchases.
Goosebumps was a blind buy, look forward to checking it out this week too.

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post #37281 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:05 AM
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Hi Ron, If the inceiling are 18" off the back wall can they still be designated as TR. They will likely be inline with MLP and maybe even ahead of MLP, if MLP is 12" from back wall. The other option is to do something like this.





This was based on the suggestion that FH is likely going to be better given the configuration of my room. This way, all 4 speakers are on an edge of the corner angled to point to MLP.

FH is angled to MLP also because the angle betweeen MLP and FH is 21 degree which is too lower than the 30 degree recommendation. Thus i thought angling them would help.

Any thoughts?
I was going to suggest the 45 degree angle but didn't know how you would feel about it. Yes, that would work really nice. Still would designate them as TR.

Install the TF in-ceiling and in line like we discussed earlier as 14' is alot of ground to cover and you are sitting all the way in the back. Plus, there is nothing stopping you now from install your TF in-ceiling. The Rears were the problem and now you have a solution that both of us like.

Yes, this configuration would shift the TM image forward but with your couch being against the wall, what are you going to do? Would be nice to get that couch off the wall but you have to compromise.

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post #37282 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:09 AM
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That is, if I understand the explanation given by @sdurani a few pages back correctly. Did I?
What explanation?

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post #37283 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:13 AM
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Hit and miss. Some Redbox movies have Dolby Atmos (ride along metadata) and others don't. Lionsgate rentals from Redbox have zero Dolby Atmos - conscious decision on their part from what I've heard.

3D Bluray Rental is probably the best rental company for the original Bluray discs with trailers and all added content. $6.99/month, one rental at a time and two rentals max per month. Prices go up from there.
So $3.50 per movie with a max of 2 movies per month. That's very reasonable. Especially since there is not a boatload of Atmos BD movies coming out monthly. Some of these movies I've bought, I probably will never watch again in my life.

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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Netflix - I have yet to get a movie that has a Atmos mix on it for sale without one from Netflix. Of course with some releases you have to wait a month for them to become available. I've got Pan coming in a few days, curious how it sounds and if its as bad as some of the reviews I can always skip around and send it back Even with it dropping to $10, I just couldn't be that big of Atmos slut, made that mistake a few times already with some other purchases.
Goosebumps was a blind buy, look forward to checking it out this week too.
I have Roku 2 and Regular Netflix that we use to stream. Probably cheaper to upgrade that subscription where I can get BD than to start a whole new subscription with 3D Bluray?


Thanks Guys. I have 15 Atmos BD now and I am sitting here counting the cash that I have spent on "Immersive Audio", asking myself would I go down this rabbit hole if I new it was a rabbit hole... Answer... Bite me and give me Rabies!!

But I have to cut back. Getting a little expensive. Now all of this talk about having to upgrade to UHD is just saddening.

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post #37284 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Got this one for the family and we watched it last Saturday. Was pleased with the sound track. Movie was funny in parts but I was unfamiliar with the characters.

I probably need to slow down with the buying of BD and figure out how what subscription is best for renting. How can you tell if Atmos movies are available for rental and what's the best way to?
I'm the wrong one to ask on this subject. No brick & mortar rental business is left in my city and I don't stream. I am a BD purchaser as well.

Chris
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post #37285 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Yes. About the height speakers. In your earlier post, you referred to 6 overheads (3 pairs) as being 'ideal', now you call that 'the minimal configuration'. Not the same thing in my book. The minimal configuration is one pair. And for getting the maximum of Atmos at your home, you need all 5 pairs of overheads (at respectively 30, 55, 90, 125, and 150 degrees elevation). Unfortunately, the maximum current (affordable) AVRs/processors allow is only two pairs of overheads.

I agree with you that 1 pair is minimum. And "ideal would be a matrix array of speakers every foot in both directions like a fish net of speakers

For a 80/20 rule where 80% would find it great, I figure for decent panning we need 3 sets of 2 speakers. 2 in front, 2 near the middle, 2 in back. This gives good mixing and panning from front to back, and side to side. This is the basis for the ground layer. Then to anchor the voices to the screen we add a 7th center speaker, although many use a phantom center and are happy.

For heights, I just see the same scenario, 2 in front, 2 near the middle, 2 in back. So a 7.2.6 system. After that anyone with an upgrade itch just starts filling in gaps between the pairs to lessen the panning jumps between pairs.
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post #37286 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What explanation?
This one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not noticeably, if at all.

If you have a single pair of heights above you, then any sounds intended to be heard above the listener will be rendered to those speakers, irrespective of which of the five possible designations you configure them for (the renderer has no other option above the listener).

Likewise, if you have two pairs of heights, any height sounds intended to be heard forward of the listener will be sent to one pair of speakers and any height sounds intended to be heard rearward of the listener will be sent to the other pair of speakers. To answer your question above: the same information will get sent to the second pair of heights, irrespective of whether you designate them TR or RH (the renderer has no other height option rearward of the listener).

The only way to hear a difference between TR and RH is by configuring both pairs, so the renderer has two data points rearward of the listener that it can pan between.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
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post #37287 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 08:11 AM
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Is it more important to have the non ceiling speakers at ear level or at the correct position? For example, my current LR surrounds are close to the ceiling. I can move them down if I place them a couple of feet BEHIND the MLP. Backs would still be further behind and at ear level. Thanks for any feedback. SJ
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post #37288 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
That is a clear explanation.

But what about this:

Imagine a sound intended by the mixer to be right above the center of the screen at FH elevation (30 degrees). If you have a FH overhead pair installed, this sound will be pan-potted right in-between those two. But if you only have TM overhead speakers installed, this same sound will jump to right above your head. The Atmos renderer will not pan-pot this sound between center speaker and TM speakers. That is, if I understand the explanation given by @sdurani a few pages back correctly. Did I?
This will depend on the mode set when they mixed the track. If they set the sound to top only or speaker snap, it will not pan, but if it is set in normal full pan mode, it can pan from wall speakers to top speaker to try to replicate the intended location the best it can on the speakers available. Limiting to wall only or top only is not used very often, and the snap to nearest speaker is mainly used for still objects when they want a solid single source for clarity, like a person talking from off screen. The sound is very clear and direct from a single speaker. If left in the normal default pan mode, a sound at the junction between the wall and ceiling, on any wall, will be rendered as a pan between the closest speakers. In a cinema, assuming the sound is not at any one speaker in any direction, it will be panned between the two nearest wall and two nearest ceiling speakers. I have not been able to test content like this on the home decoder to see how well it holds this, but it should do the same thing.

They do set limit to tops and speaker snap on demo and test content to place specific sounds in specific speakers for the wow factor. The smooth panning is much less obvious and produces a flowing sound field.
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post #37289 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Hopefully DTS:X should allow (and behave the same) with TF+TR, so everyone can migrate to TF+TR and leave the worries of FH+RH to (+)Auro folks..
Not that I'm into Auro... but I'm guessing future versions of Atmos might start including extra channels like height in conjunction with ceiling & hopefully floor speakers for the full 360. Perhaps the Auro folks didn't waste their time installing height speakers.
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post #37290 of 54965 Old 01-27-2016, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
This one:
I never said that the "sound will jump to right above your head" or made any other comments about panning from floor speakers to height speakers; just pointed out that configuring a single pair of heights meant that all the height information would be sent to those speakers.

Sanjay
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