The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1388 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #41611 of 54989 Old 09-01-2016, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Thanks but not exactly reasonably priced.
I apologize, I must have missed a post about financial considerations.

I thought there was a question about current DSP's having the possibility of doing 5.1.6, which it seems the Datasat can do.

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post #41612 of 54989 Old 09-01-2016, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Then speaker locations are all they can go by. Since commercial cinemas and home theatres tend to have speakers at room boundaries, describing the rendering as room-centric is not unreasonable (for all but the tragically technical). Half way between Mashie's front and rear walls is likely to be half way between his Front and Rear speakers. The same will be true for his local Atmos cinema.
Fair enough; it's where the speakers are that matters.

Though I believe only Trinnov and Yamaha determine that.

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post #41613 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
All 4 Hunger Games movies just announced for 4K UHD release on November 8th, all with Atmos mixes. The last 2 had theatrical Atmos mixes; Lionsgate went back re-mixed the first 2 in Atmos.

Catching Fire was also in Atmos.

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post #41614 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 06:47 AM
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Man...go for 7.1.4 if you can. Sounds like you could. It's worth it.

Any particular reason you are so far back from the screen? I'd move the listening position forward.

I am also upgrading the screen to 135" from 110" so put my seating at ~13' away and configuring the room accordingly.

If I do 7.1.4 I need to add an external amp. So wondering if it's worth spending money on external amp and two more CDT 5650 speakers when I only have one row of seating.

7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating?
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post #41615 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by deepak5 View Post
I am also upgrading the screen to 135" from 110" so put my seating at ~13' away and configuring the room accordingly.

If I do 7.1.4 I need to add an external amp. So wondering if it's worth spending money on external amp and two more CDT 5650 speakers when I only have one row of seating.

7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating?
It makes a huge difference even with one row seating. If you have the space for it 2 speakers and an amp are all it takes to go from good to great.
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post #41616 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Fair enough; it's where the speakers are that matters.
Posted as much, in reply to SoundChex:
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Since that diagram is for Dolby AC-4, it also applies to home Atmos. Except the numbers represent speaker locations, not the corners of the room. If the decoder has to render an object as far left as possible, it will send it to the left speaker; that's all it can do since it doesn't know where the actual left corner or left wall of the physical room is.
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Though I believe only Trinnov and Yamaha determine that.
Doesn't really matter, since none of that positional information is fed to the Atmos (or DTS:X) decoder.

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post #41617 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I found just the opposite. I went from 7.1.4 to 5.1.4. I really don't notice much, if any, difference. My surrounds are JBL 4722, so they throw a huge sound-stage which helps tremendously. It might be more perceivable with smaller surrounds.
I may have misunderstood deepak but I thinking he was asking about height speakers, going from x.x.2 to x.x.4. Molon seems to be talking about going from 5.x.x to 7.x.x on side surrounds. My comment was that even with one row seating having the height speakers in front and back of the MLP with proper separation over the side and rear surrounds adds a lot of area for placement of discrete sounds in the 360 space and also for increasing the level of immersion in ambient noise. Made a huge difference in my room for sure. No way would I take down 2 of my height speakers - I would definitely notice a difference.

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post #41618 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by deepak5 View Post
I am also upgrading the screen to 135" from 110" so put my seating at ~13' away and configuring the room accordingly.
Too bad, since that puts your seating almost in a null. Consider moving a couple feet forward for smoother frequency response.
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7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating?
2 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving from left-to-right above you. 4 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving left-to-right AND front-to-back above you. IF you can tell the difference between sounds in front of you vs sounds behind you, then 7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating.
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post #41619 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Too bad, since that puts your seating almost in a null. Consider moving a couple feet forward for smoother frequency response. 2 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving from left-to-right above you. 4 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving left-to-right AND front-to-back above you. IF you can tell the difference between sounds in front of you vs sounds behind you, then 7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating.
Sanjay, thanks for the response and it's very informative on 7.1.4. That helps me in understanding why I should go for 7.1.4 and which I am willing to go for sure . Also, any idea on which external amp should I go for? Frankly speaking, I don't want to spend much on the external amp.

But if I move the seating couple of feet forward wouldn't that to be too close to the screen considering my new screen size is 135"?
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post #41620 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 08:32 AM
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But if I move the seating couple of feet forward wouldn't that to be too close to the screen considering my new screen size is 135"?
IF you've already bought the 135" screen, then you're stuck at an acoustically bad seating location (always choose screen size based on seating location, don't let seating location be dictated by screen size). If you haven't bought the screen yet, then your 110" screen will give you the exact same viewing angle (image size) if you move your seating to 1/3rd room length from the back wall. That location will give you much smoother frequency response (fewer/smaller peaks & dips) AND provide excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field.

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post #41621 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
It originates from a question I raised elsewhere on the forums a while ago about why we don't have 5.1.6 in addition to 7.1.4 and 9.1.2. I was told that the current DSP based AVR's/Processors couldn't handle more than two pairs of "Atmos speakers"/speakers with rendered sound only. Well a 7.1.4 wide setup actually has three pairs of speakers that only contains rendered sound so 5.1.6 should in theory have been a viable option.
I know it's at a radically higher price point, but the Datasat RS20i supports 5.1.6, despite being a DSP-based solution. So this is possible, though there may be practical cost constraints for the mass market AVR manufacturers to implement more flexible rendering.
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post #41622 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 08:59 AM
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IF you've already bought the 135" screen, then you're stuck at an acoustically bad seating location (always choose screen size based on seating location, don't let seating location be dictated by screen size). If you haven't bought the screen yet, then your 110" screen will give you the exact same viewing angle (image size) if you move your seating to 1/3rd room length from the back wall. That location will give you much smoother frequency response (fewer/smaller peaks & dips) AND provide excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field.
Thank you, will check it out today.
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post #41623 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I found just the opposite. I went from 7.1.4 to 5.1.4. I really don't notice much, if any, difference. My surrounds are JBL 4722, so they throw a huge sound-stage which helps tremendously. It might be more perceivable with smaller surrounds.
Pfft.

Things one says to justify the downsizing.


On a serious note. Having good speakers that image well is good but that doesn't mean that they replace having more vector points in a surround sound system for sound to be positioned within that soundstage.

5.1.4 is always worse than 7.1.4 audio. The reason for having a "better" 5.1.4 system than 7.1.4 is if that the room layout or other choices lead to a compromised system layout compared to a smaller number speaker system.



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I am also upgrading the screen to 135" from 110" so put my seating at ~13' away and configuring the room accordingly.
Ehhhh....
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Originally Posted by deepak5 View Post
7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating?
Yes!

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Too bad, since that puts your seating almost in a null. Consider moving a couple feet forward for smoother frequency response. 2 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving from left-to-right above you. 4 overhead speakers let you hear sound moving left-to-right AND front-to-back above you. IF you can tell the difference between sounds in front of you vs sounds behind you, then 7.1.4 makes a huge difference even with one row of seating.
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IF you've already bought the 135" screen, then you're stuck at an acoustically bad seating location (always choose screen size based on seating location, don't let seating location be dictated by screen size). If you haven't bought the screen yet, then your 110" screen will give you the exact same viewing angle (image size) if you move your seating to 1/3rd room length from the back wall. That location will give you much smoother frequency response (fewer/smaller peaks & dips) AND provide excellent rear-vs-side separation in the surround field.
And that's why I love you, Sanjay.
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post #41624 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 12:23 PM
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I know it's at a radically higher price point, but the Datasat RS20i supports 5.1.6, despite being a DSP-based solution. So this is possible, though there may be practical cost constraints for the mass market AVR manufacturers to implement more flexible rendering.
It is a shame, would have been very easy to pull off a 9.1.6 had 5.1.6 been an option on the mass market kit.

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post #41625 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 12:34 PM
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Ah. Yes, it IS odd how there is not much (none) for a 5.1.6 layout.

I mean, what's the difference between 12ch and 12ch? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just shows the lack of versatile programming on these DSP chips. Odd but...semi-reasonable. We like to clamor on about how we'd like this or that. It'll come in time. I'm not too concerned about D&M and Onkyo dropping wides this year. I doubt that will be a permanent situation. Just more reason to enjoy what we have now and that works really, really well.

7.1.4
Just curious, but do the new Yamaha AVRs (still) support wides in place of rears? As someone who is currently making use of this layout, I am a bit concerned if mfg consensus becomes not to support it going forward.

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post #41626 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 12:39 PM
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Just curious, but do the new Yamaha AVRs (still) support wides in place of rears? As someone who is currently making use of this layout, I am a bit concerned if mfg consensus becomes not to support it going forward.
The manufacturers are not supporting wides instead of rears in 2016 products. Baffling!

I made the speculation that they may be holding out on us until the new flagship pre-amps and receivers show up next year. Perhaps wides will come back and maybe we'll get 9.1.4 as well.

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post #41627 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 01:11 PM
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Just curious, but do the new Yamaha AVRs (still) support wides in place of rears? As someone who is currently making use of this layout, I am a bit concerned if mfg consensus becomes not to support it going forward.
AFAIK no Yamaha has ever supported wides. It started with Audyssey partner mfgrs (Onkyo and Denon/Marantz) because of the introduction of Audyssey DSX upmix, and then Pioneer supported it in response, but IIRC Yamaha never did.

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post #41628 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 01:35 PM
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Just curious, but do the new Yamaha AVRs (still) support wides in place of rears? As someone who is currently making use of this layout, I am a bit concerned if mfg consensus becomes not to support it going forward.
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AFAIK no Yamaha has ever supported wides. It started with Audyssey partner mfgrs (Onkyo and Denon/Marantz) because of the introduction of Audyssey DSX upmix, and then Pioneer supported it in response, but IIRC Yamaha never did.
Yes. This is correct. No Yamaha product has ever supported wides.

At least not yet.
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post #41629 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 01:55 PM
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Fair enough.

I'm glad you're happy with your current system.
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post #41630 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 02:22 PM
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Fair enough.

I'm glad you're happy with your current system.
Don't think I am not agreeing with you buddy - I am. Your right, 7.1.4 is better. I was just pleasantly surprised at how well the codec adapted to the topology change. I wasn't expecting it.
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post #41631 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 02:31 PM
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Don't think I am not agreeing with you buddy - I am. Your right, 7.1.4 is better. I was just pleasantly surprised at how well the codec adapted to the topology change. I wasn't expecting it.
Heheh.

I know what you mean. 5.1 can sound pretty damn good which is why it's the most common. Plus it's cheaper and easier and all that but still very effective.

Just....not something I would live with if I had the choice. *shudders*
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post #41632 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 02:44 PM
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I am in the process of upgrading my media room and switching to Yamaha RXA3060 from Yamaha RXA1020. Mine is a 16x16 media room with only one row of seating (~14 foot away from the screen) and 7.1 currently.

For this setup I am thinking of going for 2 Atmos in-ceiling speakers (Klipsch CDT 5650 c ii). Wondering if 7.1.2 would be good enough for my setup, any advise? TIA.
I recently upgraded to a Yamaha RX-A3060 too. I had been using an RX-V3900 for years but wanted to upgrade from 7.1 to 7.1.4. I added four Focal in-ceiling speakers for the Atmos effect, as well as a two channel amp to drive two of the in-ceiling speakers.

I have been very happy with my new setup. Because there is so little native Atmos material available so far, I have found Yamaha's "Enhanced" DSP, aka "CinemaDSP HD3," extremely useful. This DSP matrixes conventional 5.1 and 7.1 input to 7.1.4. I have found the height effects it provides to be extremely convincing.

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post #41633 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 02:45 PM
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Try both Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X some time, @gwsat
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post #41634 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 03:15 PM
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Try both Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X some time, @gwsat
Scott -- I have used and liked Dolby Surround. Just now experimented with DTS Neural:X and liked it too. Thanks for the tip.

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post #41635 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 03:21 PM
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Sorry, I misread it. Yes, 4 overheads are much better than 2 - absolutely.
No worries and thank you.
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post #41636 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 03:22 PM
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I recently upgraded to a Yamaha RX-A3060 too. I had been using an RX-V3900 for years but wanted to upgrade from 7.1 to 7.1.4. I added four Focal in-ceiling speakers for the Atmos effect, as well as a two channel amp to drive two of the in-ceiling speakers.

I have been very happy with my new setup. Because there is so little native Atmos material available so far, I have found Yamaha's "Enhanced" DSP, aka "CinemaDSP HD3," extremely useful. This DSP matrixes conventional 5.1 and 7.1 input to 7.1.4. I have found the height effects it provides to be extremely convincing.
Awesome! Thank you for the details!
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post #41637 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 03:50 PM
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The last HT Geeks podcast was all about mixing Atmos, both for home and commercial cinema. Great stuff.

The mixer in the video did the Atmos BD mix for John Wick, which is of course still known as one of the best. Also did the DTS:X mix for Ex Machina.

Link: https://youtu.be/v8Xto_1AjQs
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post #41638 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 03:53 PM
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Fair enough.

I'm glad you're happy with your current system.
Don't think I am not agreeing with you buddy - I am. Your right, 7.1.4 is better. I was just pleasantly surprised at how well the codec adapted to the topology change. I wasn't expecting it.
One row of seating or two?
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post #41639 of 54989 Old 09-02-2016, 10:15 PM
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I have a few queries directed @SoundChex

You speak quite a bit in regards to ATSC 3.0 utilizing the Dolby AC-4 standard, I believe? I'm a COMPLETE novice on all of this stuff so I'll probably have more inaccurate statements/questions than accurate lol. I've read a little bit about it but I guess I need someone to spell it out for me and what it all means.

Is all of that you speak about in relation to getting immersive audio (Atmos) to my cable STB? That's of course what I get my broadcasted content from, not an antenna or anything like that (although I'm not sure if those even have anything to do with it?) Do you think even 10% of our TV shows will actually support immersive audio in the next 5-10 years?, if not I guess it's all a moot point right?

My follow up question would be this; My STB says DD+ on the face of the device, and of course I've never seen DD+ actually show up on my AVRs display on any content, even paid VOD. I've read that it's not even sent out over cable/satellite content for whatever reasons?

Anyways, since DD+ can transmit Atmos (albeit at a compressed rate, but we are used to that right? Lol) in that container, and even over ARC no less on some selected displays, namely the newly released Sony Z9D, what do we need AC-4 for exactly?, If my previous notion that it's for immersive audio only is even right haha. Couldn't these broadcast companies begin delivering us immersive audio using the aforementioned DD+ container instead of all these ATSC 3.0/AC-4 standards?

EDIT: Just read that AC-4 is much better bandwidth wise than DD+, so I'm guessing that's the reason? Does that mean we will start seeing Dolby AC-4 on Netflix, for example, streams instead of DD+ in the future?

PLEASE enlighten me if you have the time, as I'm generally curious if my 2015 SR7010 might not be able to accept immersive audio via its HDMI input that any future STB I might own that uses AC-4 would be connected to and sending it.

Thank you, and for anyone else that might chime in, I appreciate it!

Last edited by Csbooth; 09-02-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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post #41640 of 54989 Old 09-03-2016, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Don't think I am not agreeing with you buddy - I am. Your right, 7.1.4 is better. I was just pleasantly surprised at how well the codec adapted to the topology change. I wasn't expecting it.
What is the thinking on topology for upmixed content (single row)? I can run 9.1.2 (TM) or 9.1.4 (TF & TR) and have been listening to everything upmixed to x.4. Then last night on a lark I watched something upmixed using only TM and it sounded terrific; extremely immersive and tight. Obviously using Atmos content there is a large difference (i.e., helicopter demo going around the room instead of back and forth in a side to side overhead fashion) so I will keep 9.1.4 for that. Maybe too much diffusion in 4 upmixed overheads vs 2? Anyone else try this and get a different result?
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