The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1492 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #44731 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Atmos is not post processing. It is a decoder. You decode an Atmos signal.

It won't add things to the heights that aren't meant to be there. It won't add anything. It simply decodes an Atmos signal.

What you're talking about is using DSU (Dolby Surround Upmixer) to upmix a 5/7.1 signal to then use heights.
Thx.
So,
what is described in my audio processor manual, quote:
'Note: Many movie soundtracks are recorded with 5.1 discrete channels, so post processing is required in order for playback in a 7.1 or 5.1.2 channel system to utilize all of the channels. Choosing Dolby Atmos or DTS Neural-X for example, will generate the extra rear or top/height channel signals necessary. Without post processing applied, only the original 5.1 channels will play, leaving the rear or top/height channels silent.'

and

'A processing mode that can be used to decode Dolby Atmos encoded streams or as a post-processing mode to generate content for all channels in your chosen configuration. For example, a stereo signal could be up-mixed to a 3D audio experience with 5.1.2 using Dolby Atmos. As a post-processing mode, Dolby Atmos may be applied to streams of all types except DTS:X. The Dolby Atmos mode encompasses decoding capability for all Dolby Digital streams up to and including Dolby TrueHD.'

.... is the DSU?

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post #44732 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Extreman View Post
Thx.
So,
what is described in my audio processor manual, quote:
'Note: Many movie soundtracks are recorded with 5.1 discrete channels, so post processing is required in order for playback in a 7.1 or 5.1.2 channel system to utilize all of the channels. Choosing Dolby Atmos or DTS Neural-X for example, will generate the extra rear or top/height channel signals necessary. Without post processing applied, only the original 5.1 channels will play, leaving the rear or top/height channels silent.'

and

'A processing mode that can be used to decode Dolby Atmos encoded streams or as a post-processing mode to generate content for all channels in your chosen configuration. For example, a stereo signal could be up-mixed to a 3D audio experience with 5.1.2 using Dolby Atmos. As a post-processing mode, Dolby Atmos may be applied to streams of all types except DTS:X. The Dolby Atmos mode encompasses decoding capability for all Dolby Digital streams up to and including Dolby TrueHD.'

.... is the DSU?
That manual is badly written, they are describing DSU except for when they mention Dolby Atmos encoded streams.
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post #44733 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
That manual is badly written, they are describing DSU except for when they mention Dolby Atmos encoded streams.
I'm sorry, but this really confused me. Would you be kind enough to break this down a little more?

I'm trying to confirm a few things before pulling the trigger on gear.
Please tell me if I'm wrong:
If I buy an ultra HD player, the audio (whatever it is, stereo, atmos) will be bit streamed (HDMI) to my Marantz pre that will decode and convert the digital info to analog. I can set the Marantz to upmix any signal to become Atmos or 5.1.4?

If that's right, I do want to confirm the player is only passing whatever signal it has and is not processing any audio?

I got the folks over in the oppo thread really angry because I don't see a benefit in any ultra players dac if all they will do is pass by bitstream. This is why I bought the Marantz, cause now it will do all those tasks. Am I right about that?

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post #44734 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
I'm sorry, but this really confused me. Would you be kind enough to break this down a little more?

I'm trying to confirm a few things before pulling the trigger on gear.
Please tell me if I'm wrong:
If I buy an ultra HD player, the audio (whatever it is, stereo, atmos) will be bit streamed (HDMI) to my Marantz pre that will decode and convert the digital info to analog. I can set the Marantz to upmix any signal to become Atmos or 5.1.4?

If that's right, I do wan to confirm the player is only passing whatever signal it has and is not processing any audio?
When set to bitstream, the signal is not manipulated by the BD or HDR player, it is the avr that reads the signal and sends the format it is in. If the disc has Atmos, and the avr can reproduce Atmos, then that's what you get. If the signal is not Atmos, an avr with Atmos ability should be able to artificially produce an Atmos sound field, but it won't be as good as a true Atmos sound track.
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post #44735 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
When set to bitstream, the signal is not manipulated by the BD or HDR player, it is the avr that reads the signal and sends the format it is in. If the disc has Atmos, and the avr can reproduce Atmos, then that's what you get. If the signal is not Atmos, an avr with Atmos ability should be able to artificially produce an Atmos sound field, but it won't be as good as a true Atmos sound track.
Ok, that's the way I understand it. (Thanks by the way). So, is there any reason one ultra HD player is better than another in regards to audio if all it will ever be used for is physical content movies?
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post #44736 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
Ok, that's the way I understand it. (Thanks by the way). So, is there any reason one ultra HD player is better than another in regards to audio if all it will ever be used for is physical content movies?
In regards to audio, no. They will either send the whole audio bitstream to the AVR, or they won't (and then they are broken)
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post #44737 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 04:20 PM
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In regards to audio, no. They will either send the whole audio bitstream to the AVR, or they won't (and then they are broken)
Well, some believe certain players handle the delivery of the sound track better than others. When I had the Panasonic UB900, I noticed an improvement in sound versus my older Sony BD player. This may also hold true for different HDR players.
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post #44738 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Well, some believe certain players handle the delivery of the sound track better than others. When I had the Panasonic UB900, I noticed an improvement in sound versus my older Sony BD player. This may also hold true for different HDR players.
Bitstream? It's a pass through.
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post #44739 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post
Bitstream? It's a pass through.
What can I say, I noticed a difference
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post #44740 of 58884 Old 04-22-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post
Bitstream? It's a pass through.
What can I say, I noticed a difference
What content have you noticed a difference on? Specifically non Atmos content that was upmixed to atmos.

I'm always looking for more, but I've never seen anything upmixed, to Atmos, yet. Maybe someone has found something. I would definitely want to try it. Game? Movie? Software?
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post #44741 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by funky54 View Post
If I buy an ultra HD player, the audio (whatever it is, stereo, atmos) will be bit streamed (HDMI) to my Marantz pre that will decode and convert the digital info to analog. I can set the Marantz to upmix any signal to become Atmos or 5.1.4?
You seem to be getting confused by some of the terminology. You don't 'upmix' to Atmos 5.1.4. Atmos is 'baked in' if you will, just like DTS HD MA 7.1 or Dolby TrueHD for example. Upmixing is when you have more speakers than are catered for in the content. So if you have 7 speakers and your content is 5.1 then you can upmix it to 7.1 so that all your speakers are used. Similarly, if you have 4 speakers on your ceiling and you play a 5.1 content disc, then the upmixer (in this case DSU) will send sound to all of your speakers, including the overheads. The upmixer algorithm works out what to send to where. But if you play an Atmos soundtrack on that system, there is no upmixing required since the content is already dedicated to all the speakers anyway.

To send Atmos content, you need to bitstream the signal out.

Any help?
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post #44742 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 05:30 AM
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post #44743 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 05:56 AM
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I go away for a few weeks and look who's back
LOL. I just made what I thought was a flying visit to check up on all you lot, and guess what? I am sucked right back in.

In my year off I've learned not to post I suppose, so I doubt if I will ever be as prolific as I was, but if I am here and can offer anything, I will. I still owe AVS and the likes of Sanjay, Batpig, Jerry, etc etc a huge debt for the knowledge I have acquired over the years. It has meant I can discuss my new HT build with my installer on much more of a one-to-one basis and that is helping us both deliver exactly what I am looking for.

I still love Atmos and can't wait to hear it in my new, much bigger, much taller room. Not long to go - end of May is my scheduled completion date and the guys are bang on target so far.

Nice to chat with you again too

BTW, this is my cowshed. Look at the height of that ceiling and imagine Dolby Atmos speakers up there!
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post #44744 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
LOL. I just made what I thought was a flying visit to check up on all you lot, and guess what? I am sucked right back in.

In my year off I've learned not to post I suppose, so I doubt if I will ever be as prolific as I was, but if I am here and can offer anything, I will. I still owe AVS and the likes of Sanjay, Batpig, Jerry, etc etc a huge debt for the knowledge I have acquired over the years. It has meant I can discuss my new HT build with my installer on much more of a one-to-one basis and that is helping us both deliver exactly what I am looking for.

I still love Atmos and can't wait to hear it in my new, much bigger, much taller room. Not long to go - end of May is my scheduled completion date and the guys are bang on target so far.

Nice to chat with you again too

BTW, this is my cowshed. Look at the height of that ceiling and imagine Dolby Atmos speakers up there!
Welcome back! I take it that Cowshed = New Home Theater ?

Nice space! Do you plan on sound treatments? A Trinnov for 32 Atmos channels? Separate power supply and going green with solar panels on the roof? (Possible across the pond?) Screen size? Probably located towards the front of your picture (long ways)?

Elevator to accommodate guests? Vacation package (priced reasonably, of course) for out of town/country visitors with special discount for AVS Forum Members, including tour of local pubs, restaurants with Dolby Atmos movies nightly?
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post #44745 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 10:23 AM
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BTW, this is my cowshed. Look at the height of that ceiling and imagine Dolby Atmos speakers up there!
Nice! That height would be ideal for adding (narrow) Top Middles and not having to worry about speaker localization.

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post #44746 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Clovis559 View Post
What content have you noticed a difference on? Specifically non Atmos content that was upmixed to atmos.

I'm always looking for more, but I've never seen anything upmixed, to Atmos, yet. Maybe someone has found something. I would definitely want to try it. Game? Movie? Software?
Atmos/DTS:X results from information encoded (superimposed) in the Dolby True HD/DTS HD MA bitstream. It is "physical" bits (so to speak). Upmixing, in contrast, expands the existing bitsream info to utilize other channels than what was originally recorded. On the Yamahas, the Exhanced DSP can SIMULATE or "enhance" the non-Atmos?DTS:X bitstream to provide an immersive "Atmos/DTS:X-like" audio experience. But only Atmos or DTS:X are actually Atmos or DTS:X -- no upmixing can "create" Atmos or DTS:X. (But that Enhanced DSP can be damn close or "better". The latter depends on your environment and your perception.)

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You seem to be getting confused by some of the terminology. You don't 'upmix' to Atmos 5.1.4. Atmos is 'baked in' if you will, just like DTS HD MA 7.1 or Dolby TrueHD for example. Upmixing is when you have more speakers than are catered for in the content. So if you have 7 speakers and your content is 5.1 then you can upmix it to 7.1 so that all your speakers are used. Similarly, if you have 4 speakers on your ceiling and you play a 5.1 content disc, then the upmixer (in this case DSU) will send sound to all of your speakers, including the overheads. The upmixer algorithm works out what to send to where. But if you play an Atmos soundtrack on that system, there is no upmixing required since the content is already dedicated to all the speakers anyway.

To send Atmos content, you need to bitstream the signal out.

Any help?
Well stated and totally consistent with my comment above.

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LOL. I just made what I thought was a flying visit to check up on all you lot, and guess what? I am sucked right back in.

In my year off I've learned not to post I suppose, so I doubt if I will ever be as prolific as I was, but if I am here and can offer anything, I will. I still owe AVS and the likes of Sanjay, Batpig, Jerry, etc etc a huge debt for the knowledge I have acquired over the years. It has meant I can discuss my new HT build with my installer on much more of a one-to-one basis and that is helping us both deliver exactly what I am looking for.

I still love Atmos and can't wait to hear it in my new, much bigger, much taller room. Not long to go - end of May is my scheduled completion date and the guys are bang on target so far.

Nice to chat with you again too

BTW, this is my cowshed. Look at the height of that ceiling and imagine Dolby Atmos speakers up there!
I have been trying to "break off" for months. Not quit, just rein in (I'm sure some wish I would ). But with constant new upgrades (on my part), new HT developments and releases in this realm, and my being physically limited during most of this time by a bad knee and consequent replacement, I keep being "forced" back. And what a boon for a near invalid! But so very, very addictive.

I agree with all you said.

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post #44747 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 11:02 AM
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Welcome back! I take it that Cowshed = New Home Theater ?
Thanks and yes it is. There's a link in my sig if you care to take a look. I believe you can browse without registering.

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Nice space! Do you plan on sound treatments?
Oh yes. We are soundproofing it too, so a ton of Rockwool has already gone into it, along with various other soundproofing measures.

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A Trinnov for 32 Atmos channels?
No I am happy with 7.1.4 for now. Although it's a fairly big space, it will only have a single row of 5 seats, and I think 4 on the ceiling is enough for that. I don't think there would be any audible benefit from a middle row overhead. Maybe even a negative as they would be directly overhead and that could be distracting. For those with multiple rows though, absolutely. My main benefit from Atmos will come, I believe, from the much higher ceiling than is usually found in a domestic room. Great for separation from the floor levels speakers and should really add to the impression of spaciousness.

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Separate power supply and going green with solar panels on the roof? (Possible across the pond?)
Separate power supply because it's just practical to do that - I don't think it will make any significant difference (we have 240v here remember). I did consider solar panels but in the UK there is no longer a government subsidy for installing them and without it, one will never break even on the cost compared with just using regular electricity.

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Screen size? Probably located towards the front of your picture (long ways)?
11.5 feet on the short end of the space. Seating distance 11.5 feet. Scope CIH screen with automated masking. (We haven’t used the full length of the space as we wanted a small gym at one end - hence the single row of seats). The cinema is coming in at about 21 feet long and 16 wide.

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Elevator to accommodate guests? Vacation package (priced reasonably, of course) for out of town/country visitors with special discount for AVS Forum Members, including tour of local pubs, restaurants with Dolby Atmos movies nightly?
Hahaha. Yes all of that other than the elevator
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post #44748 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 11:04 AM
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I have been trying to "break off" for months. Not quit, just rein in (I'm sure some wish I would ). But with constant new upgrades (on my part), new HT developments and releases in this realm, and my being physically limited during most of this time by a bad knee and consequent replacement, I keep being "forced" back. And what a boon for a near invalid! But so very, very addictive.

I agree with all you said.
Cold turkey is the only way! I am a recovering AVS-er, lapsed
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post #44749 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 11:08 AM
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I take it that Cowshed = New Home Theater ?
Tried to get him to call it Barnes' Barn, but the name didn't take.

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post #44750 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 11:22 AM
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Cold turkey is the only way! I am a recovering AVS-er, lapsed
<sigh>
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post #44751 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Well, some believe certain players handle the delivery of the sound track better than others.
People can "believe" all they like, they can believe the Earth is flat if they like - but the fact remains that it's a bitstream of data, and the exact same stream of bits come off the disc and are sent down the cable regardless of which player is being used. If not, and any given player can't read data off a disc, it's got much bigger problems
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post #44752 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 03:26 PM
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Hey guys need some guidance. I am running 7.1.2 now with two ceiling speakers placed around 4 feet in in front of mlp. I like it but want to go with two more in ceiling top back speakers. How important is it to have both sets of ceiling speakers in line with each other? What I would like to do is spread my top back ceiling speakers out more so than the top front speakers. The top front is probably 3 1/2 out from each side wall. I'd like to put the top back speakers very close to the side walls. My room is around 29' long so I have a good 10ft between top front and top back. I have a Yamaha 3040 if that helps.

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post #44753 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 04:31 PM
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The Atmos height channel information superimposed on the 7.1 HD bitstream, is this metadata (for decoder or DSU processing) or actual sound information?

And, if audio is bitstreamed, aren't those bits prone to timing errors, i.e. sensitive to jitter issues that may explain difference in SQ?

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post #44754 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 04:36 PM
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post #44755 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 04:47 PM
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You seem to be getting confused by some of the terminology. You don't 'upmix' to Atmos 5.1.4. Atmos is 'baked in' if you will, just like DTS HD MA 7.1 or Dolby TrueHD for example. Upmixing is when you have more speakers than are catered for in the content. So if you have 7 speakers and your content is 5.1 then you can upmix it to 7.1 so that all your speakers are used. Similarly, if you have 4 speakers on your ceiling and you play a 5.1 content disc, then the upmixer (in this case DSU) will send sound to all of your speakers, including the overheads. The upmixer algorithm works out what to send to where. But if you play an Atmos soundtrack on that system, there is no upmixing required since the content is already dedicated to all the speakers anyway.

To send Atmos content, you need to bitstream the signal out.

Any help?
It does help. But that's kinda what I knew. What I would like to understand better is the DSU. Is it just separating frequencies and randomly throwing surround mix across 6 speakers? (Surround L, SR, Front height, rear height) or is it smart somehow knowing what "should" go to front or rear heights and what should stay as surrounds?
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post #44756 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
Hey guys need some guidance. I am running 7.1.2 now with two ceiling speakers placed around 4 feet in in front of mlp. I like it but want to go with two more in ceiling top back speakers. How important is it to have both sets of ceiling speakers in line with each other? What I would like to do is spread my top back ceiling speakers out more so than the top front speakers. The top front is probably 3 1/2 out from each side wall. I'd like to put the top back speakers very close to the side walls. My room is around 29' long so I have a good 10ft between top front and top back. I have a Yamaha 3040 if that helps.
Being "inline" is minor. Due to the shape of my room (actually two rooms offset about 4 feet), inline is impossible. May be just me, but I can't tell that there is any issue. And actually, none of my presence speakers are the same distance from the walls, nor are the fronts and rears the same distance between them. (See my signature home theater thread for more info.)

However, placing the speakers too close to the walls can be an issue. I struggled a bit (per the above) to keep the rear speakers away from the walls. My closest is about 2 feet. IMO (and just opinion), one foot would be too close -- you will get reflection.

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The Atmos height channel information superimposed on the 7.1 HD bitstream, is this metadata (for decoder or DSU processing) or actual sound information?

And, if audio is bitstreamed, aren't those bits prone to timing errors, i.e. sensitive to jitter issues that may explain difference in SQ?
You need an Atmos decoder in your AVR to extract and insert the metadata appropriately as sound. (I indicated before that a DSU -- or a DSP for that matter -- does not handle this.

As for jitter, if that is an issue there is more to be concerned about. Not anything I've had to deal with -- ever. Anyone have a good answer for this?
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post #44757 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 05:58 PM
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The Atmos height channel information superimposed on the 7.1 HD bitstream, is this metadata (for decoder or DSU processing) or actual sound information?
Think of an Atmos soundtrack as containing two basic parts: data (audio) and metadata (instructions on what to do with the audio). Height channel information is never metadata (i.e., you're never listening to the instructions part of the digital signal).

Your question is conflating two different technologies: Atmos decoding and DSU processing. Atmos mixes have audio objects placed in the height speakers. DSU extracts ambient information from a 7.1 mix and places it in the height speakers. So, in both cases, the heights get "actual sound information" that is 100% from the soundtrack itself.
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And, if audio is bitstreamed, aren't those bits prone to timing errors, i.e. sensitive to jitter issues that may explain difference in SQ?
Doubt it would happen to encoded bitstreams, though possibly to decoded PCM signals.
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post #44758 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 06:09 PM
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How important is it to have both sets of ceiling speakers in line with each other?
Preferable but not critical. Preferable because the more symmetrical the placement, the greater consistency you'll have during playback. So when a sound pans from front to back, like a helicopter circling overhead, it won't appear to spread apart when it's behind you. Doesn't mean you can't spread your rear heights apart, just understand what sort of results you get.
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post #44759 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 06:18 PM
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What content have you noticed a difference on? Specifically non Atmos content that was upmixed to atmos.

I'm always looking for more, but I've never seen anything upmixed, to Atmos, yet. Maybe someone has found something. I would definitely want to try it. Game? Movie? Software?
Sorry, the difference in sound I mentioned was before I had my 5.1.4 set up. I noticed a heavier bass concentration from the Panasonic with my 5.1.
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post #44760 of 58884 Old 04-23-2017, 06:25 PM
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People can "believe" all they like, they can believe the Earth is flat if they like - but the fact remains that it's a bitstream of data, and the exact same stream of bits come off the disc and are sent down the cable regardless of which player is being used. If not, and any given player can't read data off a disc, it's got much bigger problems
Ok, then does a 5-year-old BR player have the exact same compontents as a 2017 HDR player. Say what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the UB900 sounded better to me than my 5 year old Sony BD player. Plus, what do you mean, the Earth isn't flat
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