The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1534 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 24905Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #45991 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 03:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Studios don't mix films.. mixers do. The real, only practice effect the studios directly have on how a film sounds has to do with the amount of money they have budgeted to post sound... they also have a strong voice in who the mixers will be, but that usually has more to do with the relationship the mixer has with the director and/or producers.
Is HTTYD2 an exception to that rule?
javanpohl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #45992 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,809
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Just my own $0.02 - some of the more serious experts on the thread like sdurani or maikeldepotter can discuss the details in depth - but my feeling is that the "huge gap" has to do with not wanting to compromise the integrity of the soundstage between L/C/R where the vast majority of the sound you'll hear is dedicated, even in a high channel count setup with a Trinnov processor. Our human hearing is far more sensitive to those locations than, say, object passthrough for left screen or right screen speakers in all but the largest home theaters.
Those speakers don't really address what I'm talking about. So-called "Wide" speakers (more like front side surrounds really) appear to be an invention to fill gaps between the front speakers and the side speakers. Of course, to really make it complete, you'd want wall rear side walls and rear back walls with a rear center (I think DTS: X offers all these as potential locations for speakers whereas Atmos doesn't seem to like a rear center at all even though it's probably necessary to lock the location for off-axis listeners, assuming films would actually use that location as most do very little with it in 6.1 soundtracks).

I'm talking about more along the lines of 70mm soundtracks that had 5 speakers behind the screen (far left, mid left, center, mid right, far right) all in a straight line. Most of the diagrams I'm seeing for front wide put it halfway between the side surrounds and the front of the room on the side walls or in a straight line back from the left front. In any case, any speakers not in a straight line from the center speaker aren't going to be useful for panned dialog.

Here's a good picture of what I'm referring to in a theater Atmos type environment that uses a full 5 speakers across the front screen ((http://i.imgur.com/X4vco9k.jpg).

That type of setup can easily pan between positions along the screen with hard points at 5 distinct locations (making it lock in for more audience positions on a large screen than just 3 speakers where people sitting off the center axis are going to have position errors due to stereo phantom imaging being offset by them not sitting in the center). Obviously, the more speakers that can hard transition a pan, the less the seating location matters (this applies to any speaker panning). And that's what's great about Atmos and DTS:X. They can discretely pan to individual speakers between a lot of locations instead of having to rely on phantom imaging which only works best in the center. It also means something like a rocket flying into the back of the room doesn't just jump from the front to side to back, but moves along the wall at every point there's a speaker with phantom bits in-between. This sounds more smooth than relying on phantom stereo pans between simple arrays. The point is that having 5 speakers behind (or likely over or under in a home environment) means you could have panned dialog that sounds accurate for more listening locations than near the center. But this is only going to matter for very large screens at home. I have a 93" screen at 9 feet and 5 speakers would probably be way too much. A 200" screen? Maybe.

It's probably only really important for large theaters which is why you're only seeing that typically deployed in that environment, although I can imagine a well designed "sound bar" that's only used for a center would probably work some serious magic for Atmos at home if a receiver offered that option. But without panned dialog, it's probably moot for most applications since most mixes (as you have already noticed with Audessey receivers that support "wide" and move more sound effects there) do very little with points along the actual screen for sound in general, let alone dialog. But try watching something like Cars or Gravity and you should find them used a LOT more (it might be helpful to have a definitive list of movies that support a lot of panned dialog; I know I've seen more, but with 700+ movies, my memory is pretty foggy which ones had it and which ones didn't offhand).

Quote:
I don't think that T4 is as dismal as many make it out to be, but it's really more of a fanfic type re-imaging than a real connection to the classic first two films. They really should have stopped after Judgment Day.
By T4 I meant Transformers 4 (and it being the first blu-ray with an Atmos soundtrack), not Terminator 4.

As for the Terminator series, I actually liked the basic time travel plot to Gensys (that would be T5 I suppose if you wanted to call it that), but I think the actors playing John and Sarah Connor sucked as did that bad guy (magnetic dude terminator). That's what made it hokey. If they had a more believable terminator and better actors, the time travel aspects (not to mention watching Arnold kick his own younger butt were pretty novel). It'd be interesting to see what James Cameron does (if anything) once he gets the rights back to the Terminator series.

But Transformers? I'd be in favor of a reboot or a TV Spin-off that isn't so darn focused on tiny gears and blowing crap up constantly. As a kid, I actually liked the original cartoon series and still have (mint) all my old Transformer toys from the early '80s. But the movies really didn't work for me. It was hard to even recognize Soundwave or Megatron, particularly in robot form they looked little or nothing like the cartoon versions and don't get me started on Mr. Labouf as an actor (I could forgive the acting of Megan Fox because she was so hot then, but I digress....
MagnumX is online now  
post #45993 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 8,648
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2222 Post(s)
Liked: 2827
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Is HTTYD2 an exception to that rule?

Why would that title be an exception in particular.

It's not a 100% rule.

But the director is the one who has the most say on the dub stage... until they don't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
FilmMixer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #45994 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
My view is that it is a bit more nuanced than your boxing analogy would have it.

If you are watching a film and your attention is distracted from the story by the sound design--whether on the one hand because it is disjointed from the action or on the other hand due to its prominence--that is less than ideal.


But if, as in the example I cited in my post above (City of Ghosts), you are drawn into the storytelling by the mix and only realize how well it was done after reflecting on the viewing experience--that is subtle craftsmanship at its finest.
Pretty sure George Lucas would strongly disagree with you.

Last edited by javanpohl; 08-21-2017 at 04:13 PM.
javanpohl is offline  
post #45995 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Why would that title be an exception?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
In terms of dynamics, bass, volume levels of the music the sequel is incredibly tame compared to the first. I believe they both had the same director and Randy Thom did both, right? There was a video floating around of the director where he said they got some criticism for the music and sound effects overpowering the story (I'm going off of memory here so that's not verbatim.) Now, I don't know if that means "criticism from the studio" but that seems like a reasonable assumption.
javanpohl is offline  
post #45996 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 8,648
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2222 Post(s)
Liked: 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
In terms of dynamics, bass, volume levels of the music the sequel is incredibly tame compared to the first. I believe they both had the same director and Randy Thom did both, right? There was a video floating around of the director where he said they got some criticism for the music and sound effects overpowering the story (I'm going off of memory here so that's not verbatim.) Now, I don't know if that means "criticism from the studio" but that seems like a reasonable assumption.
Where did I ever say the studio didn't have any say over the mix? I was making a generalized statement... which accounts for over 95% of situations I've seen in my 27+ years in the business..

They set the post sound budget, hire the sound crew (or approve it if the film maker has a previous relationship...)

With few exceptions do we see a producer/studio during the final mix... we almost always have a final playback for them (so they can see the final mix against the final cut of the picture... sometimes they give notes, sometimes you get none...

If they felt the first film was too loud, they certainly have an opinion they can share with the director...

I said they aren't the ones making the day to day decisions... companies like Disney, Dreamworks, Pixar... they make films much more by committee than most other studios in town...

I know Dean Dubois.. if he got a criticism that the first film was too loud/dynamic, he is the kind of director to heed that kind of critique.... (which i find personally valid for a film made for kids..) if he didn't he wouldn't be back for the third film..

Again... my original point was that there is a sound crew (mixers, supervising sound editors, sound designers, editors, etc..) who is responsible for creating the sound track... not the studios who finance and release them.
FilmMixer is offline  
post #45997 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
And that's where it's just your opinion. Your job doesn't apply except in that you tend to avoid dialog panning when you're working. Once you start "noticing" that people on the left of the screen are coming from the middle of the screen, it's hard to "un-notice" it and that's is the opposite of the effect of people being so used to dialog coming from the middle that it seems "weird" when it comes from the left of the screen or whatever.
I'm just gonna quote this one little part because I wanted to jump into this discussion with you because, over the years, I've gone back-and-forth on whether or not I prefer "voices coming from wherever the character is speaking" vs "anchoring dialogue into the center" and there's one important reason why you might NOT want to have the dialogue going from speaker-to-speaker through the listening environment: tonal shifts between speakers. To me, THAT can be far more distracting than dialogue not coming from where the character is. Our ears are particularly sensitive to the human voice and a good portion of the human voice is made up by frequencies that are heavily influenced by the room itself. The one movie scene that comes to mind is in Dr Strange where he goes on that initial inter-dimensional trip when he first meets The Ancient One. Her voice starts moving all through the soundscape as he's floating through space. The timbre changes from speaker to speaker, in my rig, were really distracting, and I even have the same speaker model for all of my surrounds and atmos channels.
javanpohl is offline  
post #45998 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
"For example, in Power Rangers (spoiler alert......). When the kids are in the pit and Zordon is taking to them... I initially presented that as him coming out of the overheads (where he is logically located based on where the kids look...).

So we completely matched the picture. It just sounded weird, disjointed and disconnected.... we all agreed and I presented him in the surrounds and used some verb in the OHs... it kept him closer to the main characters yet still had the impact of him being off screen... "
You know... I'm pretty sure that exact scene is what influenced me to reconfigure my atmos speaker set-up (yet again) to be more "overhead", because I thought I was supposed to be getting more overhead sound info (my overheads were really far apart front-and-back). Might not only have been that one scene that prompted my change, but it's still kind of funny that his voice wasn't supposed to sound like it was coming from overhead after all.
javanpohl is offline  
post #45999 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,809
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I'm just gonna quote this one little part because I wanted to jump into this discussion with you because, over the years, I've gone back-and-forth on whether or not I prefer "voices coming from wherever the character is speaking" vs "anchoring dialogue into the center" and there's one important reason why you might NOT want to have the dialogue going from speaker-to-speaker through the listening environment: tonal shifts between speakers.
I agree is very important, but there are things you can generally do (or at least try) to fix that issue. One is to use matching drivers (or even matching speakers when possible). That generally (negating manufacturing consistency issues) means it generally will at least start out the same from the speaker. Next, you've modern day room/speaker correction systems that you can measure at one or more listening locations. It will then attempt to match whatever you're using (even if they're not the same model or manufacturer) to a nice flat curve (or with something like Dirac, whatever manual curve you want to feed it). This should at least get many systems in the ballpark if not precise tonal matching.

I'm using PSB Image B15 speakers (+/- 1.5dB from 70-20kHz) across the front (L/C/R) sitting right underneath my 93" screen. I've then got PSB Image S50 (which use the same exact drivers) on the sides about two feet above the listening position (the S50 is a side-wall mounted speaker with angled drivers facing about 30 degrees outward towards the room on the front and back of the speaker wired as bipoles so they image, but not too pin-point (this lends itself to both mono surround and 5.1 and up configurations). I've got another B15 in the back of the room (6.1 configuration) with a Definitive Technology PF-1500 15" 250 Watt sub about two feet into the room on the left side up against an end table (that's what gave me flat frequency response right down to 21Hz before it starts to drop off). With Yamaha's YPAO system engaged (with some manual corrections using a SPL meter and manual measurements), even the pink noise sounds consistent around the room. In other words, the dialog's tonal/timbre characteristics remains pretty constant even if they pan.

I've been weighing whether to even try ceiling speakers or bounce type (PSB makes a new Imagine XA speaker that does the latter) as the side surrounds already put aircraft, etc. above my head and cars and the like even with the screen (Alan Parson's ON AIR's "Blue Blue Sky" walks right around the room pretty consistently). I may try to find a dealer I can drive to that could lend me a pair when I get my next receiver to try it out first. I really am not crazy about mounting speakers on the ceiling in that room, although I could put them right over the couch using the center wall beam box, but that would be almost right in line with the existing side surrounds and given the lack of sensitivity to height differences compared to lateral ones, I'm afraid it wouldn't sound all that different in that location. A bounce from the front equipment racks (which are the right height on the top with the 7' ceiling) might work better as that would fill the gap between the front and side surrounds overhead and I could put a pair on the back of the room box for the rear height and let them image phantom for the overhead couch area (along with side surrounds. I could move the side surrounds lower, but that would put them awfully close to the side listening locations and no longer in line with the center of the 93" screen.

Given I only have a half dozen Atmos titles right now out of around 700 movies, I'm not terribly worried about it at the moment and I'm waiting for HDMI 2.1 to come out first anyway before I get a new receiver.

Last edited by MagnumX; 08-21-2017 at 05:15 PM.
MagnumX is online now  
post #46000 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 04:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I agree is very important, but there are things you can generally do (or at least try) to fix that issue. One is to use matching drivers (or even matching speakers when possible). That generally (negating manufacturing consistency issues) means it generally will at least start out the same from the speaker. Next, you've modern day room/speaker correction systems that you can measure at one or more listening locations. It will then attempt to match whatever you're using (even if they're not the same model or manufacturer) to a nice flat curve (or with something like Dirac, whatever manual curve you want to feed it). This should at least get many systems in the ballpark if not precise tonal matching.

. . . .

I've been weighing whether to even try ceiling speakers or bounce type (PSB makes a new Imagine XA speaker that does the latter) as the side surrounds already put aircraft, etc. above my head and cars and the like even with the screen (Alan Parson's ON AIR's "Blue Blue Sky" walks right around the room pretty consistently).
That's really weird. I once heard a demo of a 5.1 set-up of PSB speakers at (the now closed) Audio Visionaries in Colorado Springs. The demo was of an outdoor concert (audio only) and there was this amazing phantom image of a plane flying overhead. So, yeah, I agree they do do that very well!

Last edited by javanpohl; 08-21-2017 at 05:02 PM.
javanpohl is offline  
post #46001 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 05:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2403 Post(s)
Liked: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post

There is no story in Michael Bay movies so you might as well have impressive surround sound. How many on here bought T4 just to hear Atmos and couldn't have cared less about its (dismal) story telling?
Agreed. I watched T4 as my first Atmos movie back in 2014, and it was the biggest, coolest experience so far. The grin on my face afterwards is one seen probably less than 5 times since. This was how sound was supposed to be. Finally!

I have lost count over how many Atmos BD's i have seen since, where i just shake my head afterwards, and think: what a waste! So many lost opportunities regarding the sound, it is almost comical.

Another cool example of dialog panning is a pre-Atmos movie called:

Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole.

This has a very active, cool soundtrack, and has several scenes were two main caracters(owls) talk to each other, one of them on screen and the other out of screen, moving around the room. And guess what: their voices comes from where they are, either on or of screen. And the camera switches between them several times, and the sound follows EXACTLY what happens in the scene. Guess how big my grin was ? Awsome

Wasn't it George Lucas who said sound is 50% of the movie? I agree 100% !
Marc Alexander and am2model3 like this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
post #46002 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 05:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
grendelrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Agreed. I watched T4 as my first Atmos movie back in 2014, and it was the biggest, coolest experience so far. The grin on my face afterwards is one seen probably less than 5 times since. This was how sound was supposed to be. Finally!

I have lost count over how many Atmos BD's i have seen since, where i just shake my head afterwards, and think: what a waste! So many lost opportunities regarding the sound, it is almost comical.

Another cool example of dialog panning is a pre-Atmos movie called:

Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole.

This has a very active, cool soundtrack, and has several scenes were two main caracters(owls) talk to each other, one of them on screen and the other out of screen, moving around the room. And guess what: their voices comes from where they are, either on or of screen. And the camera switches between them several times, and the sound follows EXACTLY what happens in the scene. Guess how big my grin was ? Awsome

Wasn't it George Lucas who said sound is 50% of the movie? I agree 100% !
Love that movie, if anyone picks up, get the 3D release, its amazing.
Marc Alexander and Nalleh like this.
grendelrt is offline  
post #46003 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 05:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,344
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1592 Post(s)
Liked: 961
For you gamers, it was just announced that Rise of The Tomb Raider will get an update and support Dolby Atmos on the new Xbox One X. Im very excited that console games will support Atmos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LG65C9, XBOX ONE X, PS4PRO, APPLE 4K, SONY STRDN1070, TAKE CLASSIC 5.1
helvetica bold is offline  
post #46004 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 05:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 8,648
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2222 Post(s)
Liked: 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
You know... I'm pretty sure that exact scene is what influenced me to reconfigure my atmos speaker set-up (yet again) to be more "overhead", because I thought I was supposed to be getting more overhead sound info (my overheads were really far apart front-and-back). Might not only have been that one scene that prompted my change, but it's still kind of funny that his voice wasn't supposed to sound like it was coming from overhead after all.

Spoilers....

The first scene of the film with Zordons breathing.... that is an object that pans from OHs to the front center...

That's a good scene to hear how the timbre is matching between your OHs and the fronts.

And all of the other dialog in that scene is panned to match the actors locations.

In the rest of the film all of Zordon and Alpha 5s dialog pans based on where they are on camera (with a few exceptions where the camera move/picture edit are too jarring, or the example I gave earlier where it didn't sound correct...).
Scott Simonian and javanpohl like this.
FilmMixer is offline  
post #46005 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 06:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Love that movie, if anyone picks up, get the 3D release, its amazing.
One of the most underrated films of the past decade, I think. Agreed the 3D is glorious and that that is a GOOD example of the voices moving around through the channels.

And since this is sorta sound related: Joel Edgerton as metal beak is one of the best voice acting jobs I think I've ever heard. It's performances like that that make me think there should be an oscar category for voice/mo-cap work.
javanpohl is offline  
post #46006 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 06:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
grendelrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 557 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
One of the most underrated films of the past decade, I think. Agreed the 3D is glorious and that that is a GOOD example of the voices moving around through the channels.

And since this is sorta sound related: Joel Edgerton as metal beak is one of the best voice acting jobs I think I've ever heard. It's performances like that that make me think there should be an oscar category for voice/mo-cap work.
I really want to rewatch it now, I wonder how it will sound using Dolby Surround upmixer....
am2model3 likes this.
grendelrt is offline  
post #46007 of 54916 Old 08-21-2017, 07:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2403 Post(s)
Liked: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Spoilers....

The first scene of the film with Zordons breathing.... that is an object that pans from OHs to the front center...

That's a good scene to hear how the timbre is matching between your OHs and the fronts.

And all of the other dialog in that scene is panned to match the actors locations.

In the rest of the film all of Zordon and Alpha 5s dialog pans based on where they are on camera (with a few exceptions where the camera move/picture edit are too jarring, or the example I gave earlier where it didn't sound correct...).
Yup, i noticed all those, and more. Exellent job on that movie, demo material for sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Love that movie, if anyone picks up, get the 3D release, its amazing.
Forgot to mention, but yes, the 3D on that one is right up there with Avatar, top notch
Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
I really want to rewatch it now, I wonder how it will sound using Dolby Surround upmixer....
It is even more glorious with DSU Already in the opening scene you could swere it was native Atmos

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
post #46008 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 02:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,833
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
If you look at the diagram on the most recent page, there are 24 speakers in the home version shown, but a HUGE GAP at the screen. You can just see all the dotted angles have this open spot there because there is just one center speaker. The theater version only has 3 with 2 more being optional.
It's a bit more complicating and a lot more confusing than that. The diagram I believe you are referring to (the one I posted) has the L/R speakers against the side wall. This is quite different from other diagrams in the Atmos Home Theater guidelines, where L/R speakers are flanking the screen, where we would normally expect them. In the latter case, the number of screen speakers (L/R included) goes up to 7, which obviously is 2 more than what theatrical Atmos offers.

I posted that diagram to draw attention to the Lscreen/Rscreen speakers, which also appear in the up-coming AC4 codec, and to make a (wild) suggestion that those could enable more consistent left-right on-screen sound steering on screens with different sizes (viewing angles). However, I don't believe anyone with a high-channel count lay-out is using this diagram as a guideline for speaker positions.

The issue here is that being a room-referenced codec, the Atmos renderer 'expects' the L/R speakers to be in the front corners of a square room (edit: better described by corners of a horizontal rectangle). In this diagram Dolby has chosen to translate that into a +/- 45 degrees position but 'forgot'(?) to widen the screen accordingly (edit: apparently, this screen was added by someone, the original Dolby diagram does not show a screen). Initially, the remapping function of the Trinnov Altitude put the L/R speakers at that same wide position. Later on, Trinnov added an Atmos_Narrow lay-out, which puts the L/R speakers at 30 degrees azimuth and consequently pushes all screen speakers closer together. I believe this is the preferred lay-out for optimal Atmos playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
my feeling is that the "huge gap" has to do with not wanting to compromise the integrity of the soundstage between L/C/R where the vast majority of the sound you'll hear is dedicated, even in a high channel count setup with a Trinnov processor. Our human hearing is far more sensitive to those locations than, say, object passthrough for left screen or right screen speakers in all but the largest home theaters.
As explained above, there is no "huge gap" if you use the Atmos_Narrow lay-out or if your viewing angle is +/- 45 degrees.

Quote:
FWIW with my own 11.4.6 Trinnov, I did an experiment in my 20x15x9 room where I took the opening scene of Unbroken and configured my L/R mains (+/- 25 degrees) as L/R screen speakers and my L/R wides (45 degrees) as mains, and I found that there was little activity taking place on those screens compared to, say, wides. The same with Lucy BTW. The gap IMO is more important for front to wide transition, where our hearing is sensitive, than between the mains.
I am not sure if those examples are representative of the average activity of those speakers. All of the Atmos trailers (on the Sept2015 disc, including the audio-only clips) show LOTS of activity in all 7 'screen speakers'.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 08-22-2017 at 09:23 PM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #46009 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 02:24 AM
Member
 
gerchy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SI
Posts: 131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I have lost count over how many Atmos BD's i have seen since, where i just shake my head afterwards, and think: what a waste! So many lost opportunities regarding the sound, it is almost comical.
I agree. So much more could be done with all available speakers.
Watched Sing yesterday. It felt good!
In Power Rangers, where one guy landed on the car's roof, I flinched!
I get scared quickly, I guess.

7.3.4 with an old Sony ES gear. :-)

Last edited by gerchy; 08-22-2017 at 02:30 AM.
gerchy is online now  
post #46010 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2403 Post(s)
Liked: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
It's a bit more complicating and a lot more confusing than that. The diagram I believe you are referring to (the one I posted) has the L/R speakers against the side wall. This is quite different from other diagrams in the Atmos Home Theater guidelines, where L/R speakers are flanking the screen, where we would normally expect them. In the latter case, the number of screen speakers (L/R included) goes up to 7, which obviously is 2 more than what theatrical Atmosphere offers.
Technically the diagram you posted is not from Dolby, it's a homemade one, and altough it has all the speakers, it not correct. Not even symmetrical, look at the front heights, and the dotted line to each front LR speakers.
maikeldepotter likes this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
post #46011 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,833
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Technically the diagram you posted is not from Dolby, it's a homemade one, and altough it has all the speakers, it not correct. Not even symmetrical, look at the front heights, and the dotted line to each front LR speakers.
You are right! I too noticed the asymmetry, but that was after I (re-)posted it.

Below are the originals.

So not Dolby is to blame for this part of the confusion, as in the right diagram you can still picture a screen as wide as the front wall, which places Lf/Rf just outside the borders, albeit still in this very peculiar position on the side walls...

Thanks!

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2017-08-22 om 17.11.05.png
Views:	83
Size:	139.1 KB
ID:	2271238
Nalleh likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #46012 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
For you gamers, it was just announced that Rise of The Tomb Raider will get an update and support Dolby Atmos on the new Xbox One X. Im very excited that console games will support Atmos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
this is great news! I need to upgrade my sound system to atmos. Do you know how to get atmos from pc gaming? does it currently require windows 10 to get atmos? or can my nvidia card output PCM 5.1 or 7.1 and then dolby surround upmix to atmos?
am2model3 is offline  
post #46013 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:21 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,548
Mentioned: 191 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6957 Post(s)
Liked: 5934
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The issue here is that being a room-referenced codec, the Atmos renderer 'expects' the L/R speakers to be in the front corners of a square room.
For the Atmos renderer, those speaker locations represent the front corners of the lower plane, to the extent that objects cannot be rendered forward of those speakers or to the sides of those speakers. But in practical terms, the speakers themselves are typically not placed in the front corners of the room, either in movie cinemas or home theatres; which Dolby was aware of when inventing Atmos.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #46014 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 194
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Agreed. I watched T4 as my first Atmos movie back in 2014, and it was the biggest, coolest experience so far. The grin on my face afterwards is one seen probably less than 5 times since. This was how sound was supposed to be. Finally!

I have lost count over how many Atmos BD's i have seen since, where i just shake my head afterwards, and think: what a waste! So many lost opportunities regarding the sound, it is almost comical.

Another cool example of dialog panning is a pre-Atmos movie called:

Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole.

This has a very active, cool soundtrack, and has several scenes were two main caracters(owls) talk to each other, one of them on screen and the other out of screen, moving around the room. And guess what: their voices comes from where they are, either on or of screen. And the camera switches between them several times, and the sound follows EXACTLY what happens in the scene. Guess how big my grin was ? Awsome

Wasn't it George Lucas who said sound is 50% of the movie? I agree 100% !
I would love to hear star wars and indiana jones in atmos!! I would love to hear my games in Atmos as well! I really need to upgrade my system to atmos! i am looking to do so and would love to hear transformers 4 in atmos! I have transformers5 ultra hd 4k blu ray on preorder. What are you thoughts on listening to non-atmos movie discs that upmix to atmos via dolby surround? I'm sure it might be not as strong; but i have read the upmix to atmos sounds great as well? I'm looking at doing 5.1.4. Should i stick with 5.1.4 or go 7.1.4? I was thinking for atmos sound; 5.1.4 is enough? What is your sound setup?
I listened to a $20-30k demo projector room of dolby atmos, with goldenear tritons, 7.4.4 system; it was really impressive. there was a cave scene; and it sounded like we were in a cave, it was spectacular. There was a boat scene from master commander, and we could hear the creaks of the boat as if we were deep in the hull.
The "dome" of atmos sound was apparent, vs. 5.1 dolby digital ring of sound that i am used to. (I'm on 5.1 dolby digital, compressed! lol. I haven't even been listening to dolby true HD; should have upgraded 8 years ago.)
So i'll go from dolby digital 5.1 optical; bypass DolbyTrueHD, and go straight to Atmos! haha wild upgrade huh? I'm looking at the denon 9.2 receiver, capable of 11.2 with powered amps. they hit a big sale, went from 1499 to 799!
am2model3 is offline  
post #46015 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,833
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For the Atmos renderer, those speaker locations represent the front corners of the lower plane, to the extent that objects cannot be rendered forward of those speakers or to the sides of those speakers. But in practical terms, the speakers themselves are typically not placed in the front corners of the room, either in movie cinemas or home theatres; which Dolby was aware of when inventing Atmos.
Yes, I should have said 'front corners of a horizontal rectangle'.
sdurani likes this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 08-22-2017 at 08:41 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #46016 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 08:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
Lonewolf7002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 566
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 448 Post(s)
Liked: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
After considerable experimentation, some of it with very capable dedicated center speakers, I've had great success in my theater room with tower speakers in phantom mode. I recognize that comb filtering can be an issue and proper setup is essential, but I now use my best, most capable speakers for front and center duties, and they now sound superior to any dedicated center I've owned. I'm currently using Golden Ear Triton 5's, which image very well, but I've also used this method with other speakers and dialogue comes right where it's supposed to and the Triton's superior imaging make the voices exceptionally realistic. I personally will never go back to a horizontally oriented center speaker.
For years I didn't have the room to properly set up my surround system and either used two or four speakers. When I moved into the place I am in now last fall, I saw that the foam surround in my center channel had crumbled and fallen apart. So again I've been living with no center channel. Since I always sit in the center of my couch to watch content, and never have people over to watch movies with, I have not missed having my center channel speaker. My left/rights image well and I felt nothing was missing. When I have people over to video game and sit on either ends of the couch we are usually chatting and trash talking, so if voices seem a little off center no one would ever notice anyway. I finally got around to ordering and replacing the foam surrounds and put my center channel back into service a couple of days ago. I haven't had much time to listen with it in, but so far I don't feel like I have gained anything by having it. I didn't need to use it, I just hated having it sit there. For people with bigger screens and wider seating arrangements and actually have people over to watch with, the center becomes more important. But I agree with you that it's not "always" needed and you can get by fine without.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
RE: If your paying attention to the panning (or lack of it) the director has failed to properly tell their story.

Sounds like a boxing analogy where if you don't notice the referee, then he or she has usually done a great job. The same with Dolby Atmos or any other sound mix for that matter? In other words - - if you're not overly paying attention to the sound theatrics then it's fully integrated with the story you are trying to tell and that is the primary focus.
There are those that buy equipment to watch movies, and there are those that buy movies to watch their equipment. We all know people like that. There's room for both. Back in the day when 4:3 screens were still popular I had a buddy who bought a big rear projector. He always watched widescreen movies stretched to fill the whole screen and everything looked out of wack. He would not watch a movie with black bars because he "didn't spend the money on a big screen to only watch half of it". Personally, I buy equipment to stay out of the way. When the movie comes on, I don't want to see a TV or hear the speakers. I want to get lost in the movie and have everything else disappear. Some people need the LFE to hit the lowest notes possible with everything and hear their overheads at all times or they are disappointed with the lack of vision from the people who made the movie. I'm just glad not everything is made into a demo showcase, it would get tiring after a while.
ggsantafe likes this.

Samsung KS8000, Denon AVR-X3300W, Xbox One X, Samsung UBD-K8500 4K bluray player, Himedia Q5 Pro android box
Lonewolf7002 is offline  
post #46017 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 09:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2403 Post(s)
Liked: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
I would love to hear star wars and indiana jones in atmos!! I would love to hear my games in Atmos as well! I really need to upgrade my system to atmos! i am looking to do so and would love to hear transformers 4 in atmos! I have transformers5 ultra hd 4k blu ray on preorder. What are you thoughts on listening to non-atmos movie discs that upmix to atmos via dolby surround? I'm sure it might be not as strong; but i have read the upmix to atmos sounds great as well? I'm looking at doing 5.1.4. Should i stick with 5.1.4 or go 7.1.4? I was thinking for atmos sound; 5.1.4 is enough? What is your sound setup?
I listened to a $20-30k demo projector room of dolby atmos, with goldenear tritons, 7.4.4 system; it was really impressive. there was a cave scene; and it sounded like we were in a cave, it was spectacular. There was a boat scene from master commander, and we could hear the creaks of the boat as if we were deep in the hull.
The "dome" of atmos sound was apparent, vs. 5.1 dolby digital ring of sound that i am used to. (I'm on 5.1 dolby digital, compressed! lol. I haven't even been listening to dolby true HD; should have upgraded 8 years ago.)
So i'll go from dolby digital 5.1 optical; bypass DolbyTrueHD, and go straight to Atmos! haha wild upgrade huh? I'm looking at the denon 9.2 receiver, capable of 11.2 with powered amps. they hit a big sale, went from 1499 to 799!
No need to worry: there are A LOT of non-Atmos movies that sound WAY better than many native Atmos movies using Dolby Surround Upmixer. So even if a movie is not in Atmos, it can be awsome
I would go for as many speakers as possible, so 7.1.4 if you can swing it, but 5.1.4 is good too. And better than 7.1.2.
4 overheads is important for best effect !

My setup? Well i started with 7.1.4(when i watched that T4 movie), but have upgraded some since. Read about it in the link in my signature
am2model3 likes this.

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
Nalleh’s HT
Nalleh is offline  
post #46018 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stikle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Sovereign State of Eastern Oregon
Posts: 1,528
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 945 Post(s)
Liked: 1110
Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
I would love to hear star wars and indiana jones in atmos!!

So would the rest of the world. That mix doesn't exist yet in the consumer space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
What are you thoughts on listening to non-atmos movie discs that upmix to atmos via dolby surround? I'm sure it might be not as strong; but i have read the upmix to atmos sounds great as well?

You're not upmixing to Atmos. Atmos is an object oriented format vs channel based. DSU upmixes 2.0 or greater channels to use all available speakers (except wides). DSU does quite an excellent job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
I'm looking at doing 5.1.4. Should i stick with 5.1.4 or go 7.1.4?

IMO, 7.x.4 is the best solution if your room is conducive to the correct speaker layout. The next best would be 5.x.4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
What is your sound setup?

See my signature link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
So i'll go from dolby digital 5.1 optical; bypass DolbyTrueHD, and go straight to Atmos!

That's not quite how it works. Atmos is carried over Dolby TrueHD (or DD+), so you actually still have to have a processor (AVR) capable of Dolby TrueHD before Atmos comes into play, and only on native Atmos authored content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
I'm looking at the denon 9.2 receiver, capable of 11.2 with powered amps.

You only need one extra 2 channel amp for under $140, RCA cables, and a 12v trigger to drive the extra 2 speakers.
am2model3 likes this.
stikle is offline  
post #46019 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 12:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked: 194
thank you both for your information! I really appreciate it.

wow, your Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1
that is incredible! I love the ingenuity! That is really compelling!
I had heard of Swatmos, zatmos, scatmos, etc.

I heard there are many movies that sound great with the upmix dolby suround or neural x! That is great. While it will be great in the future to hear star wars and indiana jones in atmos or dtsX; i can enjoy the upmix until then!

I am also interested in hearing upmix dolby surround / neural x for video games as well!

I should upgrade soon; hopefully in a month or so before all the new movies & games release! I want to hear better sound from them all! = )
am2model3 is offline  
post #46020 of 54916 Old 08-22-2017, 02:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,809
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1049 Post(s)
Liked: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
I would love to hear star wars and indiana jones in atmos!!
Oddly, there are people that have gone out of their way to restore the original Star Wars as it was seen in movie theaters (no 5.1/6.1 sound either).

Quote:
The "dome" of atmos sound was apparent, vs. 5.1 dolby digital ring of sound that i am used to. (I'm on 5.1 dolby digital, compressed! lol. I haven't even been listening to dolby true HD; should have upgraded 8 years ago.)
Are you aware that there are no proven audible differences between uncompressed "Master Audio" or "TrueHD" and the "compressed/lossy" versions? Every blind test I've ever seen fails to show better than guessing. In truth, you've missed nothing on that front. I don't bother including Master Audio or TrueHD on my digital files (I store everything on a hard drive and watch with Kodi so I don't get menus and forced previews and can send everything around the house without having to search for a disc) due to the excessive space they take up unless they have 7.1 on them.

Quote:
So i'll go from dolby digital 5.1 optical; bypass DolbyTrueHD, and go straight to Atmos! haha wild upgrade huh? I'm looking at the denon 9.2 receiver, capable of 11.2 with powered amps. they hit a big sale, went from 1499 to 799!
You won't really be bypassing anything as you get what you get on a Blu-Ray or Ultra Blu-Ray. Most do not have Atmos or DTS:X and they're backwards compatible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For the Atmos renderer, those speaker locations represent the front corners of the lower plane, to the extent that objects cannot be rendered forward of those speakers or to the sides of those speakers. But in practical terms, the speakers themselves are typically not placed in the front corners of the room, either in movie cinemas or home theatres; which Dolby was aware of when inventing Atmos.
I would certainly hope not. The corners of the room are among the absolute worst possible place to put a speaker (save perhaps a sub for reinforcement purposes, although I find standing waves makes that a bad location as well without correction).
am2model3 likes this.
MagnumX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off