The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1535 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #46021 of 54994 Old 08-22-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Oddly, there are people that have gone out of their way to restore the original Star Wars as it was seen in movie theaters (no 5.1/6.1 sound either).
Speaking of which, have you read about how they made the silver screen edition (the best one)? They got a hold of an original 35mm reel of A New Hope, and cleaned up the film and used a DSLR to take a picture of each frame, and put them all together "slide-show" style. Pretty crazy https://www.engadget.com/2016/02/18/...despecialized/
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post #46022 of 54994 Old 08-22-2017, 04:16 PM
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Are you aware that there are no proven audible differences between uncompressed "Master Audio" or "TrueHD" and the "compressed/lossy" versions? Every blind test I've ever seen fails to show better than guessing. In truth, you've missed nothing on that front. I don't bother including Master Audio or TrueHD on my digital files (I store everything on a hard drive and watch with Kodi so I don't get menus and forced previews and can send everything around the house without having to search for a disc) due to the excessive space they take up unless they have 7.1 on them.
Meh, with a revealing system you can often tell. More than a few times I started watching a disc and found the sound strident - when I checked, playback had defaulted to the lossy track, not lossless.

There are likely many factors involved this this, but in total with a good system and room, there is a difference

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post #46023 of 54994 Old 08-22-2017, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Meh, with a revealing system you can often tell. More than a few times I started watching a disc and found the sound strident - when I checked, playback had defaulted to the lossy track, not lossless.

There are likely many factors involved this this, but in total with a good system and room, there is a difference
Yeah, I've heard the same thing from many people before and not just soundtracks (i.e. AAC vs WAV, etc.). Not ONE could ever prove their claim in a double blind test. I'll leave it at that.
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post #46024 of 54994 Old 08-22-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Yeah, I've heard the same thing from many people before and not just soundtracks (i.e. AAC vs WAV, etc.). Not ONE could ever prove their claim in a double blind test. I'll leave it at that.


Many would envy your inability to hear differences between formats on a well recorded/mastered audio track. I assume you hear no difference between formats either, vinyl LP, CDs, etc.
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post #46025 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 12:49 AM
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Many would envy your inability to hear differences between formats on a well recorded/mastered audio track. I assume you hear no difference between formats either, vinyl LP, CDs, etc.
You would assume wrong in regards vinyl, etc. I have a high quality 2-channel system (Carver ribbons bi-amped with a custom crossover network and sonic holography preamp) and what I'd call an entry-level high-end vinyl rig. But equating that with something like high bit-rate AAC or DTS is not even in the same realm. Vinyl has serious deficiencies compared to CD that are easily detected (let alone all the surface noise, different mastering mixes, etc. that make them inherently different sounding). Even so, a good vinyl rig comes much closer to CD quality than I imagined it would. Lossy compression algorithms only job is to save space without compromising sound quality. At reasonably high bit rates they do a really great job. They do such a great job that as I've previously said, I have YET to see ONE person prove they can detect any significant difference beyond guessing at the higher bit-rates in repeated double blind tests (such as ABX based testing). Claiming you can hear a difference and proving it are two different things.

Am I extra skeptical? I used to follow audiophile magazines, etc. for several years and I've invested quite a bit in my own 2-channel system, but no testing over the years showed differences in many areas that audiophile magazines claimed there were differences where the science sounded extremely suspect.

Frankly, some of the audiophile claims over the years I've seen in Stereophile magazine and others are so RIDICULOUS it's hard to believe. Here's a few of the more ridiculous ones that they claimed worked in all opposition to science, physics and frankly the imagination with ZERO proof to back any of it up (but hey, it sells advertising space, so it's all good right?)

1>Painting the edges of CDs with a green marker pen somehow improves their sound. The data isn't on the edges so what was it supposed to be doing? I remember Stereophile saying they had no idea but they could hear a difference. Push them to a double blind test? Suddenly, where did it go? But hey, what's the harm in painting all your CD edges green and paying $50 for a 50 cent marker? It's called SNAKE OIL.

2>Putting a heavy mat on the spindle motor somehow improves sound. These motors weren't designed for heavy loading in most cases so at best, what's it supposed to be doing? At worst, it was shown to increase errors as it can no longer track as fast.

3>Shakti stones (magical stones you put around your room to make the music sound better). While there are room treatments you can buy that can help improve dampening and what not in your room, a couple of magic stones placed here and there aren't one of them. But darn did they sell a bunch of stones to a lot of people.

4>High-end interconnect cables. Ah, nothing like spending $5000 on a pair of magical interconnect cables that do literally nothing. Talk about throwing money in the garbage. You still see lots of overpriced cables at places like Best Buy that perform no better than a $3 cable.

5>High-end DACs. While there are measurable differences in some of these high-end DACs and they generally are improvements (or they'd be harder to sell without a marketing angle), the real problem is that humans are hard pressed to hear 0.5dB differences in sound levels, let alone 0.05dB differences. The average loudspeaker has variation of around 6dB (+/- 3dB being one of the most common goals) at various parts of the frequency spectrum and room interactions can cause even larger dips and peaks, especially around the bass region. Instead of spending $3000 on a high-end DAC, maybe some people could have put the money into room treatments or room correction systems (or even better speakers) that would get your far more bang for your dollar.

These aren't things pushed to average people. They are pushed to so-called "audiophiles" because that's where the money is. But advertising is always a great thing at all price levels. Words like "organic" or "natural" sell things much better than "synthetic" or "contains preservatives". The same is true in audio products. "Identical to the master audio track" sells better than "uses a lossy compression method" even if they sound the same to human ears. But once people pay for things, they can get very defensive about how they just spent their money. Do you think someone who spent $5000 on interconnect cables wants to hear they just wasted their money? No, I have little doubt many would rather believe in the Easter Bunny than hear that.

But feel free to believe anything you want. I'm simply pointing out an alternative to those that think because something is marketed it's automatically a real improvement. A lot of snake oil has been sold over the years by touting the benefits of questionable products. There's no harm in having a lossless audio track, of course, but expecting an obvious improvement might lead to disappointment.
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post #46026 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 01:47 AM
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I had heard of Swatmos, zatmos, scatmos, etc.
Actually, i think i am the only one doing SWAtmos


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post #46027 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The corners of the room are among the absolute worst possible place to put a speaker (save perhaps a sub for reinforcement purposes, although I find standing waves makes that a bad location as well without correction).
It's a bit more complicated than that. Modal effects depend on the source (speaker) location AND the listener location. I do have my L and R speakers in corners (flush mounted) because this eliminates certain reflections which I believe to be highly detrimental to imaging. Furthermore I gain a couple of dB max. output.
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post #46028 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 08:29 AM
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It's a bit more complicated than that. Modal effects depend on the source (speaker) location AND the listener location. I do have my L and R speakers in corners (flush mounted) because this eliminates certain reflections which I believe to be highly detrimental to imaging. Furthermore I gain a couple of dB max. output.
You do gain output in the bass region (hence it's a favorite traditional place for subwoofers, especially ones that could use a boost), but that boost is also then no longer in the frequency response curve for the speakers and hard to control. But it's not the speaker or listening location that's the problem in the corner, but the proximity of the walls creating very early reflections that tend to either cancel each other out (or at lower frequencies reinforce each other), creating frequency response havoc and spaced gaps that vary by frequency similar to having a dipole speaker too close to the back wall. Move the speaker out from the wall and any frequency interaction is time delayed more and more where cancellation effects becomes less and less of an issue. Generally, this tends to "muddy" the sound compared to being away from the wall (i.e. I have my dipole ribbons over 4 feet from the rear wall in my two channel system).
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post #46029 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You do gain output in the bass region (hence it's a favorite traditional place for subwoofers, especially ones that could use a boost), but that boost is also then no longer in the frequency response curve for the speakers and hard to control.
Let's assume satellites are crossed over at 80Hz. You will and should have usable output down to 40Hz. That's very much in the modal region.

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But it's not the speaker or listening location that's the problem in the corner,
It is a problem because that's when modal effects are at maximum.

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
but the proximity of the walls creating very early reflections that tend to either cancel each other out (or at lower frequencies reinforce each other), creating frequency response havoc and spaced gaps that vary by frequency similar to having a dipole speaker too close to the back wall. Move the speaker out from the wall and any frequency interaction is time delayed more and more where cancellation effects becomes less and less of an issue. Generally, this tends to "muddy" the sound compared to being away from the wall (i.e. I have my dipole ribbons over 4 feet from the rear wall in my two channel system).
Very early reflections can be controlled by specific dispersion patterns, flush mounting and absorption. At lower frequencies the proximity to the walls will have an insignificant effect because wavelengths are much longer than distance to the wall. That's not the case when you have speakers placed out in the room. See for example https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...de_ed_2015.pdf (they show the effect but draw the wrong conclusions) or Toole, "Sound Reproduction".

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post #46030 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 09:35 AM
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Actually, i think i am the only one doing SWAtmos


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Yeah... well... he was just saying that he heard of it.
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post #46031 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 09:51 AM
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Yeah... well... he was just saying that he heard of it.

Just felt the need to point out it is rare..... very rare.....

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post #46032 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 09:52 AM
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Just felt the need to point out it is rare..... very rare.....
Yes. You're very special.
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post #46033 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 09:56 AM
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your Super Hyper Edition ATMOS setup is impressive! Hats off to you!
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post #46034 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 10:58 AM
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Yeah... well... he was just saying that he heard of it.
SWatmos? Never heard it.
Just imagined it, and gave it a name, that's all.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...l#post50390897

People who actually did hear it are rare indeed.
I know but one and that's @Nalleh .
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post #46035 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 11:44 AM
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Let's assume satellites are crossed over at 80Hz. You will and should have usable output down to 40Hz. That's very much in the modal region.
Usable, yes. But that doesn't mean it will be desirable in all rooms even for subs. I had huge variations in frequency response at different listening locations, some as much as 12db. Moving the sub 3 feet forward and pointing it at a pentagon shaped end table broke up the standing waves and gave me flat response within 3db at all listening locations and only two peaks to correct with the parametric EQ on the receiver. More isn't always better. I have flat response to 21Hz now +3/-0 below 100Hz..

Yes, you could make speakers that would do OK in the corners by design and some possible room treatments, but why bother in most cases? Most speakers are not ideal in the corners so unless the room presents no other option, it wouldn't be my first choice or even 4th choice
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post #46036 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 12:01 PM
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Yes. You're very special.
Yes, my mama has always said i'm special

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your Super Hyper Edition ATMOS setup is impressive! Hats off to you!
Thanks
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post #46037 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Usable, yes. But that doesn't mean it will be desirable in all rooms even for subs. I had huge variations in frequency response at different listening locations, some as much as 12db. Moving the sub 3 feet forward and pointing it at a pentagon shaped end table broke up the standing waves and gave me flat response within 3db at all listening locations and only two peaks to correct with the parametric EQ on the receiver. More isn't always better. I have flat response to 21Hz now +3/-0 below 100Hz..
Minimizing strong and early reflections is desirable in any room. Putting subs in corners not so much. You can't "break up" standing waves. Smooth sub response isn't everything. You also want to look at the time domain and at multiple points within the listening area.

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Yes, you could make speakers that would do OK in the corners by design and some possible room treatments, but why bother in most cases? Most speakers are not ideal in the corners so unless the room presents no other option, it wouldn't be my first choice or even 4th choice
It's not only "OK" but also superior to any other approach. Only few do it though because the industry doesn't offer (m)any options and people make buying decisions that aren't guided by sound quality but first and foremost by looks, WAF, fashion, ego, etc.pp.
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post #46038 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 02:10 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Picked up Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 and realized the 4K disc has Atmos but the 3D is on the Blu-ray with DTS-HD 7.1. Are there any 3D Blu-ray Discs with Atmos sound tracks that anyone’s aware of? Stinks that I have to choose between 3D and Atmos at home for Guardians Vol 2. Not sure which way to watch it. Maybe I’ll just do both.

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Picked up Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 and realized the 4K disc has Atmos but the 3D is on the Blu-ray with DTS-HD 7.1. Are there any 3D Blu-ray Discs with Atmos sound tracks that anyone’s aware of? Stinks that I have to choose between 3D and Atmos at home for Guardians Vol 2. Not sure which way to watch it. Maybe I’ll just do both.
Since I haven't watched 3D in about 4 years, the choice would be easy for me!
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post #46040 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 02:47 PM
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Picked up Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 and realized the 4K disc has Atmos but the 3D is on the Blu-ray with DTS-HD 7.1. Are there any 3D Blu-ray Discs with Atmos sound tracks that anyone’s aware of? Stinks that I have to choose between 3D and Atmos at home for Guardians Vol 2. Not sure which way to watch it. Maybe I’ll just do both.
Ghost in the Shell is 3d with Atmos.
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post #46041 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 03:58 PM
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Since I haven't watched 3D in about 4 years, the choice would be easy for me!


I VERY rarely watch 3D, but I decided to see Guardians Vol 2 in 3D in the theater when it came out and it is one of the few (and by few, I mean about 3 movies) where the 3D was done right. It enhanced the story without being gimmicky. It is therefore one of the rare times I can and would use the 3D on my projector. Just wish I didn’t have to sacrifice the Atmos experience for it!

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post #46042 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 04:59 PM
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Minimizing strong and early reflections is desirable in any room. Putting subs in corners not so much.
All I can say is that your recommendations go contrary to every single article I've ever read, which usually recommend trying the corner for subs for bass reinforcement (typically +3db per surface which means +9db for room dimensions it will work in which is 8x the linear output compared to anechoic. Not all room dimensions work well, however as you can end up with uneven response in the desired range.

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You can't "break up" standing waves.
Sure you can. I don't know where you are getting these strange ideas. You typically need to stop the sound waves from reflecting directly off parallel surfaces. This is why pointing my sub at at the corner of a pentagon shaped cabinet eliminated the severe standing waves in my room. The sound waves no longer had any direct path to reflecting off room boundaries causing only minor interactions by comparison.

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Smooth sub response isn't everything.
Only if you want accurate bass response instead of boomy on one note and very light on the next.....

Quote:
You also want to look at the time domain and at multiple points within the listening area.
The time domain is compensated for with an appropriate delay to match the mains. Ideally, you want even response at all listening locations.

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It's not only "OK" but also superior to any other approach.
What's supposed to be superior about it? By the time you damp out the early reflections you're pretty much behaving like there's no walls there. I see no obvious advantage at all. Corner loading can increase your bass output. Everything else is detrimental.

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Only few do it though because the industry doesn't offer (m)any options and people make buying decisions that aren't guided by sound quality but first and foremost by looks, WAF, fashion, ego, etc.pp.
I'd think the corners would likely be more acceptable to a woman than in the middle of the room. They generally want them to be invisible whereas guys generally don't even like speaker grills installed because they look cooler with the drivers exposed.
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post #46043 of 54994 Old 08-23-2017, 08:06 PM
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Is there a guide to how far from the side walls the Atmos speakers should be?
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post #46044 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Picked up Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 and realized the 4K disc has Atmos but the 3D is on the Blu-ray with DTS-HD 7.1. Are there any 3D Blu-ray Discs with Atmos sound tracks that anyone’s aware of? Stinks that I have to choose between 3D and Atmos at home for Guardians Vol 2. Not sure which way to watch it. Maybe I’ll just do both.
If you like nature documentaries, you might check out the following UHD BRD offerings from distributor Shout! Factory. As I recall, the Atmos soundtrack is also included on the 3D BRD that accompanies the retail UHD BRD:

Flight of the Butterflies (highly recommended)

Journey to Space

The Last Reef: Cities Beneath the Sea

Humpback Whales

Wonders of the Arctic

And last, but not least, one of my very favorite Atmos films: Enchanted Kingdom 3D (aka Nature 3D in the Japanese release, which is the one I have). This one is demonstration material IMHO.

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post #46045 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
If you like nature documentaries, you might check out the following UHD BRD offerings from distributor Shout! Factory. As I recall, the Atmos soundtrack is also included on the 3D BRD that accompanies the retail UHD BRD:

Flight of the Butterflies (highly recommended)

Journey to Space

The Last Reef: Cities Beneath the Sea

Humpback Whales

Wonders of the Arctic

And last, but not least, one of my very favorite Atmos films: Enchanted Kingdom 3D (aka Nature 3D in the Japanese release, which is the one I have). This one is demonstration material IMHO.

I realize this is an audio thread, but I figured I'd mention that all the Journey to Space reviews say that most of the footage is not 4K (some being even less than 1080?).
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post #46046 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ergalthema View Post
I realize this is an audio thread, but I figured I'd mention that all the Journey to Space reviews say that most of the footage is not 4K (some being even less than 1080?).
Yeah, I thought that one was the least impressive of the titles I listed.

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post #46047 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
All I can say is that your recommendations go contrary to every single article I've ever read, which usually recommend trying the corner for subs for bass reinforcement (typically +3db per surface which means +9db for room dimensions it will work in which is 8x the linear output compared to anechoic. Not all room dimensions work well, however as you can end up with uneven response in the desired range.
You really need to read something else than those "articles". Toole, "Sound Reproduction" for example. Or get an AES account. There are plenty of good papers on that topic. Welti did some good research.

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Sure you can. I don't know where you are getting these strange ideas. You typically need to stop the sound waves from reflecting directly off parallel surfaces. This is why pointing my sub at at the corner of a pentagon shaped cabinet eliminated the severe standing waves in my room. The sound waves no longer had any direct path to reflecting off room boundaries causing only minor interactions by comparison.
There is no "reflection" at such low frequencies. You have to approach the problem using a wave model. Again, see Toole for detailed information and references.

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Only if you want accurate bass response instead of boomy on one note and very light on the next.....
You can have a perfectly flat magnitude response that is highly distorted in the time domain.

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The time domain is compensated for with an appropriate delay to match the mains. Ideally, you want even response at all listening locations.
I'm referring to non-minimum phase behavior and not just simple time alignment of sub/main when talking about the time domain.

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
What's supposed to be superior about it? By the time you damp out the early reflections you're pretty much behaving like there's no walls there. I see no obvious advantage at all. Corner loading can increase your bass output. Everything else is detrimental.
You don't see any advantage in controlling acoustics of the playback room and removing detrimental reflections? Well, I do. Again, please read up on psychoacoustics so we can have a more meaningful discussion. I'd recommend Blauert, "Spatial hearing"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I'd think the corners would likely be more acceptable to a woman than in the middle of the room. They generally want them to be invisible whereas guys generally don't even like speaker grills installed because they look cooler with the drivers exposed.
Often people here like to use WAF when in reality they themselves don't like a particular idea for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality. For example near field subs. They can be made less intrusive than a couple of big black boxes scattered around the room. Another example would be a DBA. It can be completely hidden and offer superior bass reproduction. One would think DBA has become the norm in dedicated home theaters but it's rather an exception.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #46048 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
If you like nature documentaries, you might check out the following UHD BRD offerings from distributor Shout! Factory. As I recall, the Atmos soundtrack is also included on the 3D BRD that accompanies the retail UHD BRD:

Flight of the Butterflies (highly recommended)

Journey to Space

The Last Reef: Cities Beneath the Sea

Humpback Whales

Wonders of the Arctic

And last, but not least, one of my very favorite Atmos films: Enchanted Kingdom 3D (aka Nature 3D in the Japanese release, which is the one I have). This one is demonstration material IMHO.

Thanks for all the info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ergalthema View Post
I realize this is an audio thread, but I figured I'd mention that all the Journey to Space reviews say that most of the footage is not 4K (some being even less than 1080?).

Yeah actually I don’t have a 4K player so I was looking for 3D Blu-ray Discs that had Atmos sound tracks. 4K 3D with Atmos Discs should still play fine on my Xbox one S though. The guardians of the galaxy vol 2 4K disco played fine on my 1080p Projector through my Xbox one S and Marantz SR-6011 AVR.

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post #46049 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 10:18 AM
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@markus767 . What is "DBA", please?

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post #46050 of 54994 Old 08-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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@markus767 . What is "DBA", please?
Double Bass Array

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...s-concept.html
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