The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1536 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #46051 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Picked up Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 and realized the 4K disc has Atmos but the 3D is on the Blu-ray with DTS-HD 7.1. Are there any 3D Blu-ray Discs with Atmos sound tracks that anyone’s aware of? Stinks that I have to choose between 3D and Atmos at home for Guardians Vol 2. Not sure which way to watch it. Maybe I’ll just do both.
Not that I know of. And I still don't know if ripping the UHD discs is possible yet, much less merging that audio track with the 1080p 3D video track. Fortunately ("perspective") it seems as though that Atmos mix isn't anything to really write home about.

BTW, I was assuming you meant "3D BD discs (for Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2) with Atmos sound tracks"

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post #46052 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
There is no "reflection" at such low frequencies. You have to approach the problem using a wave model. Again, see Toole for detailed information and references.
Of course there is. You can't excite a room mode without a reflection. Bass traps work precisely by absorbing part if that wave so less reflects back to create a standing wave. DBAs work by cancelling out the wave instead so there's nothing left to reflect. Honestly, you seem hung up on language and talk little about your reasoning. I'm still waiting to hear why you think putting speakers (other than subs) in the corners of the room are a good idea. You never answered the question.

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You can have a perfectly flat magnitude response that is highly distorted in the time domain.
Given the important transient harmonics are at higher frequencies, how likely is that going to significantly matter in a typical listening room for deep bass from a subwoofer crossed at 80Hz?

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You don't see any advantage in controlling acoustics of the playback room and removing detrimental reflections? Well, I do.
I was talking about your suggestion that putting speakers (not subs) in the corners is the "best approach" for speaker setups. I was not talking about removing room reflections there..... I honestly don't know if you're even serious at this point when you distort what I said so much.
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post #46053 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Is there a guide to how far from the side walls the Atmos speakers should be?
Ok, I know my question is pedestrian, but I am gonna start cutting holes this weekend. I googled around and looked at the Atmos guide online published by Dolby, but I did not see (maybe I missed it) how to figure how far to place the speaker in from the side walls on the ceiling.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-4-setups.html

Come in a foot and call it good? Measure the angle to the MLP? Roll dice? Tarrot cards?

Come on super smart people, take a break from the high-level theory stuff and help a simpleton out.

(5.1.4, long rectangular family room, 9' ceiling, MLP 12' from display on boundary wall, 13' wide, one nice ported sub.)
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post #46054 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Ok, I know my question is pedestrian, but I am gonna start cutting holes this weekend. I googled around and looked at the Atmos guide online published by Dolby, but I did not see (maybe I missed it) how to figure how far to place the speaker in from the side walls on the ceiling.



https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-4-setups.html



Come in a foot and call it good? Measure the angle to the MLP? Roll dice? Tarrot cards?



Come on super smart people, take a break from the high-level theory stuff and help a simpleton out.



(5.1.4, long rectangular family room, 9' ceiling, MLP 12' from display on boundary wall, 13' wide, one nice ported sub.)


They are supposed to be aligned with your L/R main speakers, ideally. It's not obvious, but this is shown by a dotted line in the diagrams on Dolby's site. Where are the L/R mains located in your room?
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post #46055 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Ok, I know my question is pedestrian, but I am gonna start cutting holes this weekend. I googled around and looked at the Atmos guide online published by Dolby, but I did not see (maybe I missed it) how to figure how far to place the speaker in from the side walls on the ceiling.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-4-setups.html

Come in a foot and call it good? Measure the angle to the MLP? Roll dice? Tarrot cards?

Come on super smart people, take a break from the high-level theory stuff and help a simpleton out.

(5.1.4, long rectangular family room, 9' ceiling, MLP 12' from display on boundary wall, 13' wide, one nice ported sub.)
This document https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf says:


The horizontal width should be about the same as the horizontal separation of left and right speakers placed at ±30 degrees.
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post #46056 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by midblue View Post
They are supposed to be aligned with your L/R main speakers, ideally. It's not obvious, but this is shown by a dotted line in the diagrams on Dolby's site. Where are the L/R mains located in your room?
Awesome, thanks.

I don't have any sound in the living room yet; my basement build got bogged down in HVAC and budget hell, so I got the itch and ordered some gear for the living room last week.

My mains get here Monday and the set up is not ideal in my living room; they need to go in a bookshelf about ear level. I was going to set up the front three and take some measurements when they get here. I have a little left-to-right placement flexibility, but I was planning on trying to get the L/R equidistant from the MLP, which would put them about 6-12" from the boundary wall on the side. I can move them closer to the display by up to about 2 feet each, if necessary.
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post #46057 of 54456 Old 08-24-2017, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by a68oliver View Post
This document https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf says:


The horizontal width should be about the same as the horizontal separation of left and right speakers placed at ±30 degrees.
Awesome, thanks for that link! It looks like some great info in there.
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post #46058 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Of course there is. You can't excite a room mode without a reflection. Bass traps work precisely by absorbing part if that wave so less reflects back to create a standing wave. DBAs work by cancelling out the wave instead so there's nothing left to reflect. Honestly, you seem hung up on language and talk little about your reasoning.
At low frequencies wavelengths are longer than room dimensions. You don't get far with the classic mirror image model. You can't "break up" low frequency "reflections" by pointing your sub in a certain direction. Wavelengths are too big. Read Toole and things should become clearer. I can't give you a lecture on that in a forum post when others need a couple of hundred pages in a book to explain it. Better sit down and read such a book. I've provided references. I'm afraid it doesn't get easier than that.
Here's a good introduction: http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/...production.pdf

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I'm still waiting to hear why you think putting speakers (other than subs) in the corners of the room are a good idea. You never answered the question.
It's not me not answering but you not listening, so I'll repeat: by flush mounting L and R in corners I remove very early reflections that cause imaging problems and spectral distortion. In other words, I prevent reflections from occurring because it's easier than eliminating unwanted acoustical energy once it is out in the room.

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Given the important transient harmonics are at higher frequencies, how likely is that going to significantly matter in a typical listening room for deep bass from a subwoofer crossed at 80Hz?
Very likely. Here's just a random example from a user that posted measurements of L from the listening position. Note the excess phase group delay peaks (= non-minimum phase regions):



Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I was talking about your suggestion that putting speakers (not subs) in the corners is the "best approach" for speaker setups. I was not talking about removing room reflections there..... I honestly don't know if you're even serious at this point when you distort what I said so much.
You've said this:

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The corners of the room are among the absolute worst possible place to put a speaker (save perhaps a sub for reinforcement purposes, although I find standing waves makes that a bad location as well without correction).
So what were you talking about if it wasn't room reflections? Standing waves from the back and side wall? Flush mounting in a room corner takes care of that as well because there can't be any such standing waves with the speaker in or very close to those boundaries. So I still don't follow why putting speakers in a room corner is "the absolute worst possible place to put a speaker". It can be one of the best IF correctly implemented.
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post #46059 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 02:48 AM
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Not all Atmos setups suggest that the ceiling speakers be in-line with with the front L & R's, check with the speaker manufacturer and installation manual. For example, Atlantic Technology recommends that their IC OBA's are positioned to the sides.

http://atlantictechnology.com/wp-con...ual_150116.pdf
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post #46060 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
Not all Atmos setups suggest that the ceiling speakers be in-line with with the front L & R's, check with the speaker manufacturer and installation manual. For example, Atlantic Technology recommends that their IC OBA's are positioned to the sides.

http://atlantictechnology.com/wp-con...ual_150116.pdf
I see just a vague "to the sides" recommendation in that document, not a specific placement recommendation, although their picture seems to suggest they could be farther apart than the front main speakers.

It's probably still best to go by Dolby's recommendations if you can. They're the ones who designed Atmos, after all.
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post #46061 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Thanks for the link. That's very interesting. Looks like the implementation problem is to either get two pairs of speakers at the mid-points of the F and R walls, or a symetrical arrangement of 4 speakers on each wall. It looks like the new Dirac method of using the bass speakers as active room correction (can't remember the name) is another way of going for similar results with a multi-sub arrangement. I've got two floor-level 12" at the front, which i am going to move to a: x__2x__x arrangement, two floor-level 12' subs under the side surrounds at 90 degrees and one 18" in the center rear. All in a 12' x 14' room. I could do a 4 x 4 array on front and rear walls if the DBA "concentricity" would work with the speakers vertically arrayed at the wall floor and ceiling junction (need to put them above the screen).

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post #46062 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Thanks for the link. That's very interesting. Looks like the implementation problem is to either get two pairs of speakers at the mid-points of the F and R walls, or a symetrical arrangement of 4 speakers on each wall. It looks like the new Dirac method of using the bass speakers as active room correction (can't remember the name) is another way of going for similar results with a multi-sub arrangement. I've got two floor-level 12" at the front, which i am going to move to a: x__2x__x arrangement, two floor-level 12' subs under the side surrounds at 90 degrees and one 18" in the center rear. All in a 12' x 14' room. I could do a 4 x 4 array on front and rear walls if the DBA "concentricity" would work with the speakers vertically arrayed at the wall floor and ceiling junction (need to put them above the screen).
In most cases DBA will be (much) better than other active absorption approaches (like Dirac Unison) because sources are arranged in a way they can be optimally optimized. Unison on the other hand probably also optimizes the crossover region which will make a huge audible difference. Not much is known about spatial robustness though.

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post #46063 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In most cases DBA will be (much) better than other active absorption approaches (like Dirac Unison) because sources are arranged in a way they can be optimally optimized.
SBA on one wall and a massive amount of absorption on the opposite wall seems more popular though. I would have done that if I had the space.

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post #46064 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 09:47 AM
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In most cases DBA will be (much) better than other active absorption approaches (like Dirac Unison) because sources are arranged in a way they can be optimally optimized.
OK. Accepted. Again with the need for concentricity: The screen means that I have to do a 4 x 4 matrix on the front wall with the four speakers vertical arrangement at the wall bottom and top. But, I could do the rear wall with two speakers at the wall mid-point. Does this violate the rule of concentricity? In my small room, self cancelling room nodes through geometry is very attractive. Also, 12" speakers in an in-wall enclosure is unlikely to have a deep bass expansion. Suppose one has the front and rear wall matrices and a fifth 18" sub in the near field? New problems?

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post #46065 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
SBA on one wall and a massive amount of absorption on the opposite wall seems more popular though. I would have done that if I had the space.
That approach is cheaper and adds higher frequency absorption to the room (which can be desirable). On the other hand you'll loose a ton of space.

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post #46066 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
OK. Accepted. Again with the need for concentricity: The screen means that I have to do a 4 x 4 matrix on the front wall with the four speakers vertical arrangement at the wall bottom and top. But, I could do the rear wall with two speakers at the wall mid-point. Does this violate the rule of concentricity? In my small room, self cancelling room nodes through geometry is very attractive. Also, 12" speakers in an in-wall enclosure is unlikely to have a deep bass expansion. Suppose one has the front and rear wall matrices and a fifth 18" sub in the near field? New problems?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Bass_Array for low frequency source placement. The closer you adhere to the spacing the better the outcome.
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post #46067 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
In my small room, self cancelling room nodes through geometry is very attractive. Also, 12" speakers in an in-wall enclosure is unlikely to have a deep bass expansion. Suppose one has the front and rear wall matrices and a fifth 18" sub in the near field? New problems?
Hi Ted,

I have a feeling we could delve into multi-sub ideas for your room for quite a while longer. I'd invite that opportunity. But I think it would be better somewhere other than in this Atmos area. If you have a thread about your room, where we can see the physical layout and such, that would be ideal. Got thread?
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post #46068 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 11:44 AM
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External amp to run Atmos ceiling speakers

I've got a Denon AVR-X6200W and looking to purchase a used amp to drive my top rear ceiling speakers. My price range is about 2 to 3 bills and my knowledge of amps is nil. I'm looking for an amp with 12 volt trigger to tie into the Denon. I've been looking at older Parasound HCA's or Rotel RMB's. I'm sure there are tons of others equal but I don't what brand or model to also look for. Please help...

I'd sure appreciate some input for options I can look into for satisfying my need for the external amp. Looking forward to your input. I'm also posting this in the 2015 Denon thread as well. Thanks.
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post #46069 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 12:56 PM
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^ alternate possibilty

my amps for ATMOS (and Scatmos) may or may not have triggers . .

but I've opted for a first rate "smart strip' from APC that can trigger them , and a few other things , when I turn on the X5200 as the "master'.

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Controlle...PC+smart+strip

HTH

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post #46070 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 01:39 PM
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^ alternate possibilty

my amps for ATMOS (and Scatmos) may or may not have triggers . .

but I've opted for a first rate "smart strip' from APC that can trigger them , and a few other things , when I turn on the X5200 as the "master'.

https://www.amazon.com/APC-Controlle...PC+smart+strip

HTH
Are you 'turning off' your X5200 or 'standby'? Does that smart strip work somewhat like the CEC function in tv's and AVR's?
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post #46071 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 02:10 PM
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good question . .

the x5200 "on" is always pushed to be "on' and the remote kicks it (master) an everything else (on controlled outlets) into action,

the other amps also need to be in an "on" mode

so do I assume the power is always there, it seems to be for the master . . which controls power to the controlled outlets

I the 2 triggers for the 2x4HD unit and my SSR for the inukes from the denon.

my ATI amp is also on the strip and that's all on a dedicated 20 amp line.

so for so good

but you make me want to go back and review that all ...

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post #46072 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 05:44 PM
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I've got a Denon AVR-X6200W and looking to purchase a used amp to drive my top rear ceiling speakers. My price range is about 2 to 3 bills and my knowledge of amps is nil. I'm looking for an amp with 12 volt trigger to tie into the Denon. I've been looking at older Parasound HCA's or Rotel RMB's. I'm sure there are tons of others equal but I don't what brand or model to also look for. Please help...

I'd sure appreciate some input for options I can look into for satisfying my need for the external amp. Looking forward to your input. I'm also posting this in the 2015 Denon thread as well. Thanks.
What speakers do you have? Are you going to use the same for the top rear channels? (I have the same receiver ).

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post #46073 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 07:29 PM
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What speakers do you have? Are you going to use the same for the top rear channels? (I have the same receiver ).
I have Missions all the way around for the bed. 705's up front, 703 & 702 centers(above & below tv) 704's for surrounds, 763i's for rears. Up top in the ceiling are Yamaha NSIC800WH. They blend really well since they have a soft dome just as the Missions have. Audyssey EQ helps of course. Got them off Amazon. Ordered my first pair a few months ago and just ordered my pair for the rear today.
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post #46074 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Hi Ted,

I have a feeling we could delve into multi-sub ideas for your room for quite a while longer. I'd invite that opportunity. But I think it would be better somewhere other than in this Atmos area. If you have a thread about your room, where we can see the physical layout and such, that would be ideal. Got thread?
No, I don't Roger, but perhaps I should to tap the wisdom of this forum. As soon as our Cat 4 Hurricane passes (I'm still here), I'll look for a good home.

Ted
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LSiC top front, Infinity 6" VOG. 4X 12" subs w/mini DSP on sub 1 and nearfield 18" from sub 2.
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post #46075 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
At low frequencies wavelengths are longer than room dimensions. You don't get far with the classic mirror image model. You can't "break up" low frequency "reflections" by pointing your sub in a certain direction. Wavelengths are too big.
You can change the room modes affected by turning the sub. This may or may not help your frequency response at your listening location (i.e. who cares if the bass response is uneven in the back of the room if no one is sitting there). In my case, however, I didn't just "point it" in a different direction as I indicated before. I pointed it at a semi-circular cabinet (end table) largely creating a new dispersion pattern leading to what I imagine were multiple wavefronts colliding at the listening couch instead of two primaries from two parallel walls. So instead of huge dips/peaks where the two primary wavefronts align and cancel, I have multiple primary interactions competing with one another, leading to the overall response being evened out to relatively minor amounts from 150Hz to 21Hz with two dips at 55Hz and 110Hz that can be corrected relatively easily compared to the massive variations I had when I put the subwoofer in any other position in the room (often 8-20dB across the listening couch alone).

Turning the subwoofer or placing it at different points in the room would change the response, but the dips were still too large between seating locations at various frequencies. Using the rounded end table more or less as the sonic equivalent of a diffraction grating is what solved my room problem with the subwoofer. Given the huge variances before, I think the term "breaking up the standing waves" is perfectly descriptive as that's exactly what pointing the subwoofer at a curved reflection surface did for the room.

Ultimately, what are my alternatives for this room short of changing the walls in it as you seem to think is ideal? A DBA won't work because of the bookshelves and windows. You either use a room correction system (assuming it's not so extreme that it CAN correct it) including room treatments or alter the sound dispersion somehow where the problem is (either through bass traps and room treatments or altering the pattern so it's not a big issue at the listening location. I did the latter). And this is what I was getting at. If you have a real house with a real room in it and you want to set up a "home theater" that doesn't cost two arms and two legs, you have actual limitations you can't just build another room to solve.

The main satellite speakers in my room are placed to align with the projection screen edges and center, not in its corners which would cause the sound stage be ridiculously wide compared to the movie on the screen and potentially lead to all kinds of phase issues caused by the sheer proximity to two different parallel wall surfaces to the sides of the speaker.

Looking up see WTF a "flush mounted" "corner" speaker is, I'm getting images closer to this (http://www.lightsoundjournal.com/ima...ott_Photo2.jpg) which is NOT what is meant by a "corner" of the room if you have to insert angled walls to make it work! That is clearly a special case and NOT AT ALL related to what I was originally talking about (90 degree corners of actual real world rooms, not custom built walls to flush mount onto).

My "home theater room" is in a house built in 1973 when home theater didn't exist. To do this so-called "flush corner mount" thing would require modifying or putting in new walls in the room, which again is beyond the scope of most average people's home theater rooms (in my case there are two bookcases at the ends of the room and window in-between. I can't just alter the room willy-nilly without consequences.

Quote:
Read Toole and things should become clearer. I can't give you a lecture on that in a forum post when others need a couple of hundred pages in a book to explain it. Better sit down and read such a book. I've provided references. I'm afraid it doesn't get easier than that.
Here's a good introduction: http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/...production.pdf
I'll take a look, but it doesn't change the fact you're talking about something completely different than what I had in mind when I said "corner location" (as in an actual typical house 90 degree corner, not some odd shaped room or added walls).

Quote:
It's not me not answering but you not listening, so I'll repeat: by flush mounting L and R in corners I remove very early reflections that cause imaging problems and spectral distortion. In other words, I prevent reflections from occurring because it's easier than eliminating unwanted acoustical energy once it is out in the room.
If that photo I linked is what you're referring to as a "corner" of a room, then it's small wonder there's a pointless argument going on here. I wondered what you meant by "flush mount". I should have figured you'd be talking about a special situation 99.9% of the typical home doesn't have or use.

Quote:
Very likely. Here's just a random example from a user that posted measurements of L from the listening position. Note the excess phase group delay peaks (= non-minimum phase regions):
Other than "very likely" you didn't really address what I was getting at, which is how does the group delay from sub frequencies matter when the human brain detects the "tightness" of something like a bass drum not by the lowest frequency, but by the harmonics at much higher frequencies? Group delay at subwoofer frequencies are generally ignored by the human auditory system. This is why you can get by with ONE subwoofer instead of stereo subwoofers. The human auditory system can't tell direction (phase) of bass below about 80Hz and thus the group delay of the subwoofer is largely irrelevant. So AGAIN, what does group delay of the sub matter with a subwoofer placed in a corner location?

And what is this "random" measurement of a left speaker? What type of speaker? What kind of crossovers is it using (those greatly affect phase and group delay). Where is it located? That appears to be one speaker, not a subwoofer and satellite speaker in two different locations. I don't know what that graph has to do with the question of putting a subwoofer in a corner or not when it's crossed at 80Hz and has insignificant output above 160Hz.

Quote:
So what were you talking about if it wasn't room reflections? Standing waves from the back and side wall?
I had two things in mind. One is clearly stereo imaging. Unless your screen is wall to wall in your home theater, putting speakers in the corner of TYPICAL REAL WORLD ROOMS is going to cause mismatches for things like panned dialog effects and most music tracks played are going to have extremely wide sound stages for in-phase stereo sounds. The other is yes, room interaction. Typical speakers are not designed for corner placement (let alone using real world unmodified rooms) and just putting a typical loudspeaker in a corner location will probably NOT sound good. It may be impractical as well (real rooms have things like furniture and doorways and all kinds of things in them that build-to-order rooms typically do not).

Frankly, I think you knew full well what I was originally talking about and you still decided to engage in an argument anyway, knowing I was referring to normal rooms that do not have non-parallel wall setups. This is akin to using something like a semi-circular room (rounded on one end only) for a home theater. Yes, that might be nice for removing standing waves from the equation, but how many houses have rooms shaped that way?

Quote:
So I still don't follow why putting speakers in a room corner is "the absolute worst possible place to put a speaker". It can be one of the best IF correctly implemented.
So you're taking a general statement about typical home theater installations and twisting it until it fits a pretty large IF? I also can't help but notice you purposely left off the "among" part in your quote as it makes it appear to say something I didn't really say (implying THE absolute worst and instead of one among many of poor places to put (clearly typical) loudspeakers in a typical room).
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post #46076 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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@MagnumX Instead of following the references provided in order to deepen your understanding of acoustics you simply restate your opinions and misconceptions over and over just to win the argument. Quite a few of your claims are simply false and you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about. Example: I was taking about excess phase group delay to identify non-minimum phase regions which is different from discussing "normal" group delay. See https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/he...imumphase.html

This discussion leads nowhere and is also off-topic so I'll bow out. Again, if you're really interested in (psycho)acoustics I highly recommend these 4 books:

Everest "The master handbook of acoustics"
Toole "Sound Reproduction"
Blauert "Spatial Hearing"
Schnupp "Auditory Neuroscience"

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole

Last edited by markus767; 08-25-2017 at 11:35 PM.
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post #46077 of 54456 Old 08-25-2017, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I have Missions all the way around for the bed. 705's up front, 703 & 702 centers(above & below tv) 704's for surrounds, 763i's for rears. Up top in the ceiling are Yamaha NSIC800WH. They blend really well since they have a soft dome just as the Missions have. Audyssey EQ helps of course. Got them off Amazon. Ordered my first pair a few months ago and just ordered my pair for the rear today.
Nice speakers, I think for the ones you plan to use a 50w per ch is enough. I use a Russound R290DS (90w per ch), with the Audyssey calibration I think it gives me at least the same power as the top front speakers (at half volume of the Russound). But you have more options if you are willing to spend more, like buy a good 3 or 5 channel amp for your LRC, and then use the denon for the rest of the speakers. Hope this helps

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post #46078 of 54456 Old 08-26-2017, 07:32 AM
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I have an Denon X3300W only capable of 5.1.2 for atmos/dts-x. I just got a pair of svs prime elevation to use for height/atmos. My setup will either be front height positioned at the ceiling line on the wall above the tv OR should I do TOP MIDDLE which would also be along the wall at the ceiling joint but NOT in the ceiling (I have cathedral ceilings).

Which would be better to mount the speakers and use for Atmos/DTSX? FRONT HEIGHT or TOP MIDDLE? Either would be positioned on the wall where it hits the ceiling above 10ft high.

my amp's options:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3300W/E...SYvqscamxo.php
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post #46079 of 54456 Old 08-26-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
I have an Denon X3300W only capable of 5.1.2 for atmos/dts-x. I just got a pair of svs prime elevation to use for height/atmos. My setup will either be front height positioned at the ceiling line on the wall above the tv OR should I do TOP MIDDLE which would also be along the wall at the ceiling joint but NOT in the ceiling (I have cathedral ceilings).

Which would be better to mount the speakers and use for Atmos/DTSX? FRONT HEIGHT or TOP MIDDLE? Either would be positioned on the wall where it hits the ceiling above 10ft high.

my amp's options:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3300W/E...SYvqscamxo.php
Your prime considerations should be (1) first and foremost, the resulting elevation and azimuth angles relative to the MLP and (2) the positioning of your overhead speakers relative to the listener-level (5.1) speakers.

On the first count, you will want the FH elevation angle to be greater than 30°; if it is less than that, then I would prioritize TM. OTOH, ideally the overhead speakers should be roughly on a line with your FL/R speakers in terms of lateral placement. This would presumably not be an issue for mounting on the front wall, but the side walls could be another matter unless your room is quite narrow.

On the second count, your goal should be to achieve audibly significant separation between the listener-level and overhead speakers. This applies not just to vertical separation between the two planes but also (where the vertical separation is compromised) laterally. For example, someone mounting their speakers on the ceiling might move the TM (or RH) speakers into the room or further out toward the sides if the vertical separation from their respective surround speakers is less than ideal. In your case, you would have no recourse when mounting on the side wall--those speakers would be fixed in place on the furthest extremes of the room. If, say, your F/LR and/or surround speakers are a good distance away from the side walls, then any sounds panning from front to back would seem to veer to the sides when overhead. How much of a concern this represents would depend on your room's dimensions and exactly where you choose to place your listener-level speakers. For instance, if your room is narrow and your speakers are already at or near the side walls, then TM placed slightly in front of the MLP would probably return the best results.

See the attached diagrams for more guidance.



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post #46080 of 54456 Old 08-26-2017, 09:41 AM
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Just found this thread....merging in my post from a differrent forum:

So I'm going to try to change my living room setup into a Atmos. When we bought the house, there were allready in ceiling surrounds and surround wides. Not optimal location, but I went with it. They are pretty well located for Atmos. So my plan is to buy bookshelf surrounds and upfiring modules, and then use the in-celings for rear atmos. I think I'll have to just go with 5.1.4, since have in celing rear surrounds would be weird along with Atmos.

I think its not ideal to go with a mix of modules and in-ceilings, but for lack of a better plan......does this seem ok?







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