The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1662 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49831 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 10:42 AM
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Watched Fury and Saving Private Ryan this weekend. Both hit the mark with lots of great surround and Atmos. Got Deadpool on tap for this week and looking to get John Wick and Hacksaw Ridge (Amazon has both less than 17 bucks right now).

Not much of a Matrix guy, but with what I've been hearing about it through these threads it may be one to get.

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post #49832 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Keith et al...

Thanks again for the kind words for the work that we did on Fury.

Paul and I mixed the film originally.

Paul did the home theater Atmos remaster. And he also did the Atmos mixes on ZDT and the Spider-Man trilogy.

For a vast majority of films and broadcast shows (>95%) the mix is handled by two mixers

One does dialog and music, the other sound effects, backgrounds/ambiences and foley. It’s becoming quite common for sound designers to also mix on the effects side of the desk.

Occasionally we have a third mixer that will mix only music. And on other shows one mixer will handle it all..

But again it’s mostly two mixers on.

I mostly sit in the dialog/music chair...

Most of the Atmos remixes are done by one person....

As I have mentioned before the catalog releases do tend to be very active and “atmos-y” for various reasons.

Most obviously it’s becuase the focus is very much about mixing for the format. In addition when your hands are tied to 5.1 or 7.1 stems you tend to move the surrounds up into the ceiling, so they become active for a large majority of the run time of the film.
As ever, Marc, your insights are, to someone obsessed with movies like me, always illuminating. Thanks for taking the time. When it all comes together, like it does in Fury, movie watching is really a very deep joy.
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post #49833 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
As I have mentioned before the catalog releases do tend to be very active and “atmos-y” for various reasons.

Most obviously it’s becuase the focus is very much about mixing for the format. In addition when your hands are tied to 5.1 or 7.1 stems you tend to move the surrounds up into the ceiling, so they become active for a large majority of the run time of the film.
Marc -- Thanks as always for your valuable insights. What I have quoted above explains a lot. I thought your remixing of the originally non immersive Zero Dark Thirty using the TrueHD Atmos codec was stunningly effective. I also give high marks to whoever remixed the original Blade Runner from its 2007 vintage BD's 5.1 to TrueHD Atmos standards. Despite the film's age, its soundtrack is demonstration quality.

In stark contrast, the TrueHD Atmos track on the UHD HDR quality version of the recently released Annihilation disappointed me. My disappointment stemmed not from the effectiveness of the immersive effects when they were used, they suited me just fine, but by them not being used in scenes, which it seemed to me called for them. I should add that your TrueHD Atmos mix for Power Rangers didn't seem to suffer from this failing.
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post #49834 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 03:10 PM
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I wonder if this trend you’ve noticed has anything to do with that the movies you mentioned have pretty stellar tracks to begin with. Better stems or something like that I wonder?
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post #49835 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
I find this fascinating. When @Joshz was setting up his ScAtmos system, he reported being unable to use DEQ due to it's action to the ceiling speakers throwing off center extraction. While Chris' says that shouldn't be happening... confirmed by Dean's experience. And now completely different results being reported by Aron.

I'd agree with Dean's comment that this appears to be a mistake/oversight, notwithstanding Chris indicating it's supposed to be that way. While those listening at reference level don't need DEQ, many don't always listen that loud, so most will be using DEQ (to good effect on the remaining channels). Considering how many listen at say MV -10, it's not surprising the number of reports of underwhelming Atmos overhead performance, since it's being disadvantaged.
Sorry if this conversation ended and I am late to the party, but for people who listen at non reference, what are some possible ways to help minimize this issue. Would it be a combination of either turning off DEQ and raising bass levels or leaving DEQ on and turning up the DEQ offset to minimize it and bump the top speakers. I personally listen around -9db and have noticed the top speakers not performing as expected but when I do atmos demos that are mainly top speaker heavy it sounds fine (helicopter demo).
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post #49836 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Sorry if this conversation ended and I am late to the party, but for people who listen at non reference, what are some possible ways to help minimize this issue. Would it be a combination of either turning off DEQ and raising bass levels or leaving DEQ on and turning up the DEQ offset to minimize it and bump the top speakers. I personally listen around -9db and have noticed the top speakers not performing as expected but when I do atmos demos that are mainly top speaker heavy it sounds fine (helicopter demo).
FWIW, I listen at less than reference mostly, and I have DEQ turned off and Audyssey set to Flat, and my subs boosted 4-6db. I like the way it sounds overall this way.
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post #49837 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
FWIW, I listen at less than reference mostly, and I have DEQ turned off and Audyssey set to Flat, and my subs boosted 4-6db. I like the way it sounds overall this way.
Mark
Yeah I may need to try that, but I already bump the subs 4-5db with DEQ on lol
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post #49838 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Yeah I may need to try that, but I already bump the subs 4-5db with DEQ on lol
Go to 11!
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post #49839 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Sorry if this conversation ended and I am late to the party, but for people who listen at non reference, what are some possible ways to help minimize this issue. Would it be a combination of either turning off DEQ and raising bass levels or leaving DEQ on and turning up the DEQ offset to minimize it and bump the top speakers. I personally listen around -9db and have noticed the top speakers not performing as expected but when I do atmos demos that are mainly top speaker heavy it sounds fine (helicopter demo).
The demos were meant to be loud and draw attention to the tops. Not all content was mixed to have that same effect.

If you want sound from the tops to be louder all the time, you'll probably have to turn them up.

For the bass at volumes below reference, I find a Harman curve to work well.

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post #49840 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 06:57 PM
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I have 5.1.4 connected at the moment. I want to mitigate not having the correct sound level using Dynamic EQ. If I run Audyssey XT32, should I set to normal volume I use (60) and then use DB meter to adjust the top to same DB all around?

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post #49841 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 09:07 PM
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Hey folks, looking for some advice about upgrading to Atmos.

I currently run a 5.1 system with a matched set of Atlantic Technology HT speakers. I reached out to Atlantic Technology via online chat to ask about which of their speakers would match best with my system when I'm ready for Atmos. (In my room I can do either the Dolby-enabled "bouncers" or direct-firing height speakers -- in-ceiling is the only option off the table due to the more complicated install).

The AT rep's advice was that their 44-DA "bouncers" would outperform a regular set of their fronts or surrounds mounted high and angled to the MLP. I thought that was surprising. Seems the conventional wisdom is that all else equal, high-mounted direct-firing speakers outperform bouncers. And it makes sense; the bouncers are basically a workaround for situations where proper placement of direct-firing height or in-ceiling speakers isn't feasible (that's how I understand it anyway).

Perhaps the most interesting thing he said was that bouncing the sound off of the ceiling and floor is crucial for the optimal Atmos effect. I had never really heard that before. I mentioned that a commercial movie theater produces Atmos with a series of high-mounted, direct-firing speakers, not by bouncing sound off the ceiling. He said they actually take those speakers and angle them in many different directions to create the bounce effect.

At that point I was getting pretty dubious, and feeling like the guy was trying to sell me a set of the 44-DA's even though proper height speakers ought to sound better.

Curious to hear what folks think about the AT guy's take.
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post #49842 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 09:28 PM
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I'm curious about sound objects. The bed layer, can these so sound objects? Or does this function and is the same as traditional sound channel?

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post #49843 of 58868 Old 05-29-2018, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by davearm View Post
Hey folks, looking for some advice about upgrading to Atmos.



I currently run a 5.1 system with a matched set of Atlantic Technology HT speakers. I reached out to Atlantic Technology via online chat to ask about which of their speakers would match best with my system when I'm ready for Atmos. (In my room I can do either the Dolby-enabled "bouncers" or direct-firing height speakers -- in-ceiling is the only option off the table due to the more complicated install).



The AT rep's advice was that their 44-DA "bouncers" would outperform a regular set of their fronts or surrounds mounted high and angled to the MLP. I thought that was surprising. Seems the conventional wisdom is that all else equal, high-mounted direct-firing speakers outperform bouncers. And it makes sense; the bouncers are basically a workaround for situations where proper placement of direct-firing height or in-ceiling speakers isn't feasible (that's how I understand it anyway).



Perhaps the most interesting thing he said was that bouncing the sound off of the ceiling and floor is crucial for the optimal Atmos effect. I had never really heard that before. I mentioned that a commercial movie theater produces Atmos with a series of high-mounted, direct-firing speakers, not by bouncing sound off the ceiling. He said they actually take those speakers and angle them in many different directions to create the bounce effect.



At that point I was getting pretty dubious, and feeling like the guy was trying to sell me a set of the 44-DA's even though proper height speakers ought to sound better.



Curious to hear what folks think about the AT guy's take.


Sorry, but I think the guy from AT was taking some creative liberties, and should not be giving advice. I’ve read a lot of literature including Dolby’s white papers and what he said about how it works, and especially in theater is just wrong.
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post #49844 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
Marc -- Thanks as always for your valuable insights. What I have quoted above explains a lot. I thought your remixing of the originally non immersive Zero Dark Thirty using the TrueHD Atmos codec was stunningly effective. I also give high marks to whoever remixed the original Blade Runner from its 2007 vintage BD's 5.1 to TrueHD Atmos standards. Despite the film's age, its soundtrack is demonstration quality.

In stark contrast, the TrueHD Atmos track on the UHD HDR quality version of the recently released Annihilation disappointed me. My disappointment stemmed not from the effectiveness of the immersive effects when they were used, they suited me just fine, but by them not being used in scenes, which it seemed to me called for them. I should add that your TrueHD Atmos mix for Power Rangers didn't seem to suffer from this failing.
Entirely agree. So far, some of the best Atmos tracks have been on re-visited movies. Blade Runner is probably the best example I have in my collection. Of the new movies, I agree with you about Power Rangers too, but then the mixes Marc has worked on have all been very good IIRC. He's one of the mixers who seemed to 'get' Atmos right from the off.
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post #49845 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
@kbarnes701
I wonder if this trend you’ve noticed has anything to do with that the movies you mentioned have pretty stellar tracks to begin with. Better stems or something like that I wonder?
Could be. I am not tech savvy enough wrt to how the process works to know but it's entirely possible, I guess, that in the process of deciding which movies to remix to Atmos, they take movies that were pretty good, sound-wise, to begin with.
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post #49846 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by camd5pt0 View Post
I'm curious about sound objects. The bed layer, can these so sound objects? Or does this function and is the same as traditional sound channel?
Having trouble parsing your questions. The home version of Atmos is 7.1 channels plus audio objects (sounds that are assigned locations in 3D space rather than being mixed into channels). Objects can move around OR remain fixed at a certain location (i.e., objects can mimic channels).
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post #49847 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 08:22 AM
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With home Atmos all bed channels are converted to objects with fixed coordinates to better utilize spatial coding. This is also why a 7.1 bed with objects can be contained in a 5.1 DD+ stream. You still get a 7.1 bed even with a 5.1 mix down because those rear surrounds are objects.
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Having trouble parsing your questions. The home version of Atmos is 7.1 channels plus audio objects (sounds that are assigned locations in 3D space rather than being mixed into channels). Objects can move around OR remain fixed at a certain location (i.e., objects can mimic channels).
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post #49848 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 08:25 AM
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Having trouble parsing your questions. The home version of Atmos is 7.1 channels plus audio objects (sounds that are assigned locations in 3D space rather than being mixed into channels). Objects can move around OR remain fixed at a certain location (i.e., objects can mimic channels).
Ok thanks,I wasn't sure if sound could jump around in the 3d space on the 7.1 channel, as in 7.1 can be objects as well.
So it's important to have as many object speakers, as this is where the new tech flexes is muscle as I understand it.

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post #49849 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by camd5pt0 View Post
Ok thanks,I wasn't sure if sound could jump around in the 3d space on the 7.1 channel, as in 7.1 can be objects as well.
So it's important to have as many object speakers, as this is where the new tech flexes is muscle as I understand it.
From the time stereo was invented 80 years ago, we've heard sounds image between speaker locations. If you have enough channels, you don't need objects to make sounds "jump around in 3D space". Question is, how many channels is enough? 9.1.6? More?

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post #49850 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 11:29 AM
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Sony is releasing Bad Boys I & II collection in 4K UHD on September 4th: "Presented in unique, must-own packaging, both films are fully restored from their original camera negatives and presented with High Dynamic Range and all-new Dolby Atmos audio tracks."

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post #49851 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yepimonfire View Post
With home Atmos all bed channels are converted to objects with fixed coordinates to better utilize spatial coding. This is also why a 7.1 bed with objects can be contained in a 5.1 DD+ stream. You still get a 7.1 bed even with a 5.1 mix down because those rear surrounds are objects.
I think you have oversimplified the process. Home Atmos does not convert all bed channels to objects. Channels always remain present in the delivered bitstreams, if for nothing else, legacy support.

Please review "25.3.3 Spatial coding in the authoring chain" of the Dolby_Atmos_Production_Suite_guide.pdf, captioned below, for further details.

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25.3.3 Spatial coding in the authoring chain

Spatial coding is present at two distinct stages in the Dolby Atmos authoring chain: during monitoring of the mix, and when encoding the Dolby Atmos master file set.

At the first stage (monitoring and mastering), spatial coding occurs as a real-time emulation process running on the Dolby Atmos Renderer during monitoring of the mix. Here, the mixer can listen to the effect of spatial coding while making adjustments to the mix for near-field presentation. The Dolby Atmos Renderer software generates a Dolby Atmos master file set (including the top-level .atmos file), which still carries the full set of up to 128 signals, and therefore contains the mixing decisions for home theater or VR, but has not yet been processed by spatial coding.

At the second stage (encoding), spatial coding is finally applied to the original beds and objects as part of the encoding process by a software tool (such as Dolby Media Encoder). This tool reads the .atmos (or .damf) file, applies spatial coding to create the same clustered objects heard during the first stage of Dolby Atmos authoring, and then encodes the clustered objects into the delivery codec format (in the Dolby Media Encoder, the delivery codec format is specified in the job setup). The Encoder generates a coded bitstream that consists of objects and one or more bed channels. The encoded bitstream can then be delivered to consumer playback devices.

Supported delivery codecs include:

• Dolby TrueHD: In this case, the spatially coded objects are losslessly delivered to consumer playback devices. Typically, the Dolby TrueHD encoder creates a bitstream containing the spatially coded objects, a 7.1-ch render of the objects, and 5.1-ch and 2-ch downmixes. The 7.1, 5.1 and 2-ch presentations are backward-compatible with legacy Dolby TrueHD decoders. A Dolby Atmos-capable Dolby TrueHD decoder losslessly reverses the downmixes and render to recreate the original spatially coded objects. Dolby TrueHD also supports independent 7.1, 5.1, and 2-channel presentations of 7.1.

• Dolby Digital Plus: In this case, the spatially coded objects are rendered to a backwards compatible 5.1 or 7.1 core mix and side metadata is generated to extract the individual objects from the mix. The core mix is encoded with Dolby Digital Plus in a backward compatible manner and can be played back directly by older Dolby Digital Plus decoders. This is a lossy process due to the downmixing process, as well as the subsequent lossy coding of the base mix.

For both Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital Plus bitstreams with a 7.1-ch core, the legacy 5.1 and stereo playback will be derived from the legacy layer of the mix. The 5.1 legacy layer is generated during encoding as a downmix from the 7.1 rendering of the spatially coded signals, using Dolby Pro Logic IIx or Lo/Ro downmix rules. For Dolby Digital Plus bitstreams with a 5.1-ch core, the 5.1-ch audio is generated during encoding by rendering the spatially coded signals to 5.1 channels. Stereo downmixing is performed based on downmixing of the 5.1 layer, according to standard two-channel downmixing equations.
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post #49852 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 01:48 PM
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Looks like Dolby wants to restrict the ways you can upmix Dolby tracks (2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc.). They want to restrict it in the way that you can ONLY use the Dolby Surround upmixer on Dolby tracks instead of also Neural:X and Auro-Matic (like it is now).

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post #49853 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 01:52 PM
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Unhappy Dolby to Restrict Non Native Up mixing on Atmos Products

New Dolby mandate that restricts how you will be able to up mix native Dolby content that will take effect on all NEW Atmos-based products (ie. receivers, processors and soundbars) coming in 2019 and current 2018 products that are able to receive firmware updates.
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post #49854 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 02:15 PM
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New Dolby mandate that restricts how you will be able to up mix native Dolby content that will take effect on all NEW Atmos-based products (ie. receivers, processors and soundbars) coming in 2019 and current 2018 products that are able to receive firmware updates.
At least one company, Datasat, has supposedly already implemented this intentional cross-codec constraint. See page 3: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...0&d=1526753399

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Last edited by sdrucker; 05-30-2018 at 04:36 PM.
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post #49855 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enovare View Post
New Dolby mandate that restricts how you will be able to up mix native Dolby content that will take effect on all NEW Atmos-based products (ie. receivers, processors and soundbars) coming in 2019 and current 2018 products that are able to receive firmware updates.
The restriction only applies to licensed upmixers (Neural:X, Auro-Matic) and height virtualizers (Virtual:X). Does not apply to proprietary upmixers (AnthemLogic, Yamaha DSP modes, Logic7 Immersive, etc).

Discussed around 6 weeks ago in another thread, starting at post # 500: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post56063188

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post #49856 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Looks like Dolby wants to restrict the ways you can upmix Dolby tracks (2.0, 5.1, 7.1, etc.). They want to restrict it in the way that you can ONLY use the Dolby Surround upmixer on Dolby tracks instead of also Neural:X and Auro-Matic (like it is now).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOR1qlcGdjc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enovare View Post
New Dolby mandate that restricts how you will be able to up mix native Dolby content that will take effect on all NEW Atmos-based products (ie. receivers, processors and soundbars) coming in 2019 and current 2018 products that are able to receive firmware updates.

Why so??? (Sorry, I didn't watch the vid., in case it's explained there.....)

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post #49857 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 08:45 PM
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How long until Dolby restricts HDR10 or HDR10+ the same way?

This is the crap that is ruining this hobby's future. Overcomplicating an already too complicated market for the average consumer.

Dolby might kill the very market its trying to control.

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post #49858 of 58868 Old 05-30-2018, 11:17 PM
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Atmos advice speaker setup


Hi, would a Front Height / Top middle / Rear Height give the same "Atmos" effect compared to Top Front / Top Middle / Top Rear ?
Or will it not matter for Dolby ?


Thanks.
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post #49859 of 58868 Old 05-31-2018, 01:28 AM
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It seems that Dolby knows it has DTS-X beat, and is now trying to corner the market with less than friendly overtures?
I agree, it will not be good to have one dominant force, and with Dolby Vision also sprinting out of the posts, we may see Dolby as the dominant player for the next few years..
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post #49860 of 58868 Old 05-31-2018, 02:12 AM
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Aren't most non-ceiling/non-3D-Sound soundtracks DTS anyway? Those are the ones we'd want to upmix, right? So Dolby's decision wouldn't matter as only applies to it's Dolby content, correct?
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