The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1663 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 26358Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #49861 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 06:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
J_P_A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 5,182
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 577
I tried the ATMOS up mixer on some music last night for the first time, and I've got to say I was amazed at how well it works. I started off listening while I was filling nail holes in my ATMOS speaker boxes, and I realized I didn't hear much in the way of vocals from them with my head just inches away. The processor does a fantastic job of putting the vocals up front, and moving everything else around the room.

I'm usually let down by "upgrades" to my AV equipment, but so far this one is really delivering.

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!
The Plains Theater Has Begun
Pro Designed Room - Measurements Before/During/After Treatments.
J_P_A is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #49862 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 07:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
Aren't most non-ceiling/non-3D-Sound soundtracks DTS anyway? Those are the ones we'd want to upmix, right? So Dolby's decision wouldn't matter as only applies to it's Dolby content, correct?
Yes - you will still be able to use DSU on DTS tracks it seems, but not be able to use Neural:X on TrueHD tracks. I only use DSU anyway so it doesn't really affect me. Unless, of course, DTS retaliates

Meanwhile, I won't be updating my AVR firmware anyway unless the unit stops working without it
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49863 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 07:07 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
How long until Dolby restricts HDR10 or HDR10+ the same way?

This is the crap that is ruining this hobby's future. Overcomplicating an already too complicated market for the average consumer.

Dolby might kill the very market its trying to control.
I wonder what their reasoning is - does anyone know why they are taking this step? On the face of it, it seems petty to restrict the use of upmixers that we all already have in our units. I personally only use DSU since I prefer it to Neural:X, but I'd still like to have the choice. I rarely do FW updates on equipment that is working properly anyway, so nothing will change at this end, but I'd like to know why Dolby felt the need to take this step. If DTS retaliate and forbid DSU on DTS tracks, then I would be forced back into the situation from a couple of years ago when we could only use DSU on Dolby tracks and Neural:X on DTS tracks - before the AVR manufacturers (or D&M specifically) fixed it with a FW update.
VideoGrabber likes this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #49864 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 08:02 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
You guys always cost me money! Despite a solemn pledge to myself not to double-dip on UHD movies I already own on Blu-ray, I find myself incapable of resisting The Matrix. And this comes one day after I succumbed to Gladiator, and a few days after Fury. All thanks to the great reviews I am seeing here. I wonder if there is effective therapy for Duplicodippus Irrationalis?
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49865 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 08:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
showmak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 565
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked: 117
You want one hour and forty minute of immersive audio and crazy bass? Watch The Hurricane Heist (2018).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5360952/
sikclown likes this.

__________________________________________________
Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX929, Yamaha Aventage RX-A3050, Front Mains: Jamo C109, Surrounds: Jamo C103, FH/RH: Jamo C93, Center: Jamo C10 CEN and Subwoofer: Jamo J112 SUB (5.1.4)
showmak is offline  
post #49866 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 09:33 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 21,016
Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4471 Post(s)
Liked: 5819
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wonder what their reasoning is - does anyone know why they are taking this step? On the face of it, it seems petty to restrict the use of upmixers that we all already have in our units. I personally only use DSU since I prefer it to Neural:X, but I'd still like to have the choice. I rarely do FW updates on equipment that is working properly anyway, so nothing will change at this end, but I'd like to know why Dolby felt the need to take this step. If DTS retaliate and forbid DSU on DTS tracks, then I would be forced back into the situation from a couple of years ago when we could only use DSU on Dolby tracks and Neural:X on DTS tracks - before the AVR manufacturers (or D&M specifically) fixed it with a FW update.
Like you, I generally use the Dolby Surround upmixer in preference to DTS Neural:X. I think they both work well but generally prefer DSU, even for DTS audiotracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You guys always cost me money! Despite a solemn pledge to myself not to double-dip on UHD movies I already own on Blu-ray, I find myself incapable of resisting The Matrix. And this comes one day after I succumbed to Gladiator, and a few days after Fury. All thanks to the great reviews I am seeing here. I wonder if there is effective therapy for Duplicodippus Irrationalis?
I bought the UHD HDR Gladiator disk and although its soundtrack is DTS:X MA 7.2.4 and not TrueHD Atmos, it provides wonderfully immersive audio.

My UHD HDR Fury disk is out for delivery, so I plan to watch it today or this evening. Even the DTS-HD MA 5.1 version sounded great when I upmixed it to 7.2.4., so I'm really looking forward to hearing it in all its lossless TrueHD Atmos 7.2.4 glory.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB and Terra Server 24 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+; Apple TV 4K
gwsat is offline  
post #49867 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 09:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
usc1995's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by showmak View Post
You want one hour and forty minute of immersive audio and crazy bass? Watch The Hurricane Heist (2018).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5360952/


Is it in Atmos on the BD or is it only on the UHD?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
usc1995 is offline  
post #49868 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 09:50 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You guys always cost me money! Despite a solemn pledge to myself not to double-dip on UHD movies I already own on Blu-ray, I find myself incapable of resisting The Matrix. And this comes one day after I succumbed to Gladiator, and a few days after Fury. All thanks to the great reviews I am seeing here. I wonder if there is effective therapy for Duplicodippus Irrationalis?
A good reality check is to ask yourself how many times you have rewatched your existing copy... If it is several times, then an upgrade might make sense, if not then it probably doesn't make sense unless the existing disc was very bad and that was the reason not to rewatch (unlikely)...
Uppsalaing is offline  
post #49869 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 09:52 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by usc1995 View Post
Is it in Atmos on the BD or is it only on the UHD?
Atmos on both: BD & UHD.
showmak likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #49870 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 09:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
usc1995's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos on both: BD & UHD.


Great! I will try and get it from Netflix then. I really wish they rented UHDs....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
sdurani and Ted99 like this.
usc1995 is offline  
post #49871 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 10:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
showmak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 565
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked: 117
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos on both: BD & UHD.
@usc1995

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Hu...lu-ray/203256/

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Hu...lu-ray/204061/

Enjoy it
sdurani likes this.

__________________________________________________
Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX929, Yamaha Aventage RX-A3050, Front Mains: Jamo C109, Surrounds: Jamo C103, FH/RH: Jamo C93, Center: Jamo C10 CEN and Subwoofer: Jamo J112 SUB (5.1.4)

Last edited by showmak; 05-31-2018 at 10:23 AM.
showmak is offline  
post #49872 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 10:36 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I bought the UHD HDR Gladiator disk and although its soundtrack is DTS:X MA 7.2.4 and not TrueHD Atmos, it provides wonderfully immersive audio.
Yes, so I read. My original copy has a fairly average track IIRC so the DTS:X should be a significant improvement. I saw this movie at the cinema and recall it as sounding good at the time. I'm told the PQ is a step up on the UHD disc as well.


My UHD HDR Fury disk is out for delivery, so I plan to watch it today or this evening. Even the DTS-HD MA 5.1 version sounded great when I upmixed it to 7.2.4., so I'm really looking forward to hearing it in all its lossless TrueHD Atmos 7.2.4 glory.[/QUOTE]

You are in for a real treat. The tank battle scenes are truly awesome. Just listen out for those shells over your head and see if you can resist the urge to duck

K
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49873 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 10:38 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
A good reality check is to ask yourself how many times you have rewatched your existing copy... If it is several times, then an upgrade might make sense, if not then it probably doesn't make sense unless the existing disc was very bad and that was the reason not to rewatch (unlikely)...
Yes, good call. I generally watch most of the discs I buy multiple times anyway, and the ones I am double-dipping right now are some of my favorite movies. I love Fury, Gladiator and The Matrix, so while the expense isn't trivial, I am sure I will forget the cost as I revel in the upgrades to PQ and SQ.
Jive Turkey likes this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49874 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 12:01 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sony is releasing Bad Boys I & II collection in 4K UHD on September 4th: "Presented in unique, must-own packaging, both films are fully restored from their original camera negatives and presented with High Dynamic Range and all-new Dolby Atmos audio tracks."
More temptation
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49875 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 12:15 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
More temptation
As much for the "fully restored from their original camera negatives" as the new Atmos re-mix.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #49876 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 01:08 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 14,826
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4808 Post(s)
Liked: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
Aren't most non-ceiling/non-3D-Sound soundtracks DTS anyway? Those are the ones we'd want to upmix, right? So Dolby's decision wouldn't matter as only applies to it's Dolby content, correct?
Most streamed soundtracks use some form of Dolby encoding, though. The restriction can be gotten around if the soundtrack is decoded from Dolby to multichannel LPCM in the player device, but many players only decode to 2.0. not to 5.1 or 7.1.
Uppsalaing likes this.

Selden

Marantz SR7009 avr + MM9000 amp --> Atmos 7.1.4
Fronts=NHT 2.9+AC2, FH+TM=DefTech PM1000, LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is offline  
post #49877 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 01:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Most streamed soundtracks use some form of Dolby encoding, though. The restriction can be gotten around if the soundtrack is decoded from Dolby to multichannel LPCM in the player device, but many players only decode to 2.0. not to 5.1 or 7.1.
Interesting and very good point... The Apple TV decodes to multichannel PCM, so I suppose that might help...
It seems as if Dolby wants to do with Atmos what it has done with Dolby Vision... i.e. control the chain from source/mastering to display/playback...

Equipment: Epson 9300W projector, Panasonic UB-424, AppleTV4K, Procella Audio Speakers...
Uppsalaing is offline  
post #49878 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 01:33 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 14,826
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4808 Post(s)
Liked: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
Interesting and very good point... The Apple TV decodes to multichannel PCM, so I suppose that might help...
It seems as if Dolby wants to do with Atmos what it has done with Dolby Vision... i.e. control the chain from source/mastering to display/playback...
But remember this actually has nothing to do with Atmos. It's just for upmixing non-Atmos soundtracks to make use of overhead or Front-Wide speakers. That's why decoding to LPCM is a viable (although inconvenient) option. Decoding Atmos to LPCM eliminates the Atmos objects. That might be desirable in some cases, though, when an Atmos soundtrack doesn't use the overheads as much as you'd like.
Uppsalaing likes this.

Selden

Marantz SR7009 avr + MM9000 amp --> Atmos 7.1.4
Fronts=NHT 2.9+AC2, FH+TM=DefTech PM1000, LCR+TM amped
Selden Ball is offline  
post #49879 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 01:36 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 27,231
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7742 Post(s)
Liked: 7044
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
As much for the "fully restored from their original camera negatives" as the new Atmos re-mix.
Absolutely. I love both those movies but the versions I have are less than brilliant. With a full picture restoration AND Atmos, they are going to be an awesome watch. So much movie goodness appearing lately....
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #49880 of 56220 Old 05-31-2018, 05:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,372
Mentioned: 413 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2798 Post(s)
Liked: 11943
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Atmos advice speaker setup


Hi, would a Front Height / Top middle / Rear Height give the same "Atmos" effect compared to Top Front / Top Middle / Top Rear ?
Or will it not matter for Dolby ?


Thanks.
The answer to this question depends on how you define "Front Height" and "Top Front". It seems like most people here define them based on whether they are on the front wall or the ceiling, but really, without knowing the dimensions of the room and where the MLP is in the room, that definition really tells us very little about the angles of the speakers relative to the MLP, which IMO is the most important aspect of speaker placement.

Denon receivers appear to make slightly different assumptions on angle between the two:


What that translates to as far as real-world performance depending on whether you select "Front Height" or "Top Front" in a Denon receiver for a pair of speakers in a particular location, I'm not exactly sure. What I do know from my own testing is that having Atmos speakers at the ideal 45 degree azimuth and 45 degree elevation angles sounds significantly more immersive and fluid for moving objects. This is regardless of whether, at those angles, they end up on your front wall, side wall, or ceiling. Where they end up will depend on the dimensions of the room and the position of the MLP. IMO that is the single best location for that speaker in that room, and which barrier it falls on, or whether it is in line with the mains, none of that matters.

I've been wanting to start a good discussion on this. I think it is a hugely important matter, as I see countless numbers of new setups where people are placing speakers based on them needing to line up with the mains, and are ending up with compromised setups because of it. As many people have observed, it is really difficult to end up with an Atmos setup that doesn't sound great, but this is AVS. Here we don't shoot for "sounds great", we shoot for "sounds the best it possibly can".

IMO the "lining up with the mains" is complete nonsense. That only tells you the lateral distance from the MLP, essentially only a single leg of the right triangle which defines the angle. What good is that, and why is that even remotely important? We hear sounds coming from an angle relative to us, therefore that is what matters.

Here's my Atmos speaker placement advice. Go to the MLP. Turn 45 degrees. Go up 45 degrees. Where are you pointing? That's where the speaker should go, if possible. Period. End of story.
inspector and CBdicX like this.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is offline  
post #49881 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 05:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The restriction only applies to licensed upmixers (Neural:X, Auro-Matic) and height virtualizers (Virtual:X). Does not apply to proprietary upmixers (AnthemLogic, Yamaha DSP modes, Logic7 Immersive, etc).

Discussed around 6 weeks ago in another thread, starting at post # 500: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post56063188
I was wondering if you (or anyone else, for that matter) has seen the actual License Terms? I ask because of what I saw that Gene DellaSala posted:

Quote:
Here at Audioholics, we got our hands on a copy of a new mandate from Dolby that was recently sent to ALL of their licensee partners with the following guidelines:

o Native Dolby Atmos content shall NOT be up-mixed, surround or height virtualized by any 3rd party competitor upmixer (ie. DTS or Auro-3D).

o Channel-Based DD/DD+, Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and 7.1 codecs shall not be height virtualized by any 3rd party upmixer (ie. DTS). (This implies height virtualization without height speakers. DTS has this capability but Auro-3D does not).
I can't say I'm very concerned about the first part, since I'm not aware of any AVR that can re-upmix Native Atmos content in the first place. And why would you want to?

OTOH, the processing of channel-based DD/DD+/TrueHD content could be a genuine concern. But the way it was posted at Audioholics limits only "height virtualizing", and not upmixing, or surround virtualizing. I.e., limiting those restrictions to systems not actually having height speakers in the first place. There seems to be two distinct sets of restrictions in place, but that may be bogus, due to faulty reporting.

I'm not seeing any of that differentiation being mentioned here.
stikle, kbarnes701 and chi_guy50 like this.
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #49882 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 05:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by usc1995 View Post
Great! I will try and get it from Netflix then. I really wish they rented UHDs....
One possible caution is that this is from Lionsgate, and they have been known to release a separate rental-disc version, with Atmos stripped off, on many of their films.
Ted99 and mrtickleuk like this.
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #49883 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 07:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
IMO the "lining up with the mains" is complete nonsense. ...why is that even remotely important?
I believe the intent is that when a sound originates in the front-base, and proceeds overhead to the back, that the image tracks linearly. It doesn't perceptually "bow out" or "skew in". Is that nonsense?

Quote:
Here's my Atmos speaker placement advice. Go to the MLP. Turn 45 degrees. Go up 45 degrees. Where are you pointing? That's where the speaker should go, if possible. Period. End of story.
I assume after you've done that for the front pair, you rotate and repeat for the rear pair. Then what do you do about the .6 pair in the middle? Perhaps the story has an Epilogue?
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #49884 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 08:05 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
I'm not aware of any AVR that can re-upmix Native Atmos content in the first place. And why would you want to?
Matrix upmixing could be useful when playing back pre-rendered 7.1.4 Atmos tracks on layouts that have additional speakers and/or include Wides. DTS:X has this functionality built into their decoder, which will come in handy whenever they go past their 11.1 limit (e.g., scaling a DTS:X 7.1.4 soundtrack to a 9.1.6 layout).
Quote:
But the way it was posted at Audioholics limits only "height virtualizing", and not upmixing, or surround virtualizing. I.e., limiting those restrictions to systems not actually having height speakers in the first place. There seems to be two distinct sets of restrictions in place, but that may be bogus, due to faulty reporting.

I'm not seeing any of that differentiation being mentioned here.
You quoted a link I posted to another thread where I mentioned that the upmix restriction wasn't required until 2019, because the licensing guidelines explicitly state that cross codec upmixing and surround virtualization for non-Atmos content is permitted for 2018. However, 3rd party height virtualizing is not permitted effective immediately. None of it will be permitted starting 2019.
VideoGrabber likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #49885 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 09:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Matrix upmixing could be useful when playing back pre-rendered 7.1.4 Atmos tracks on layouts that have additional speakers and/or include Wides.
Yes, I think I wasn't looking at that quite right when I wrote my comment, since that's exactly what I'm planning to do in my setup under construction: take 7.x.4 to 9.x.6. The .6 via ScAtmos, and extracting wides from F&S centers, and combining that with actual objects in the wide position with true Atmos content. Since I'm doing that adhoc, it wouldn't be impacted, but I can see how packaged solutions could be very desirable. I appreciate the correction.

Quote:
You quoted a link I posted to another thread where I mentioned that the upmix restriction wasn't required until 2019, because the licensing guidelines explicitly state that cross codec upmixing and surround virtualization for non-Atmos content is permitted for 2018. However, 3rd party height virtualizing is not permitted effective immediately. None of it will be permitted starting 2019.
I did take the time to read thru that entire 6-week interval, but I must have missed this specific point. But I'm glad to at least see it confirmed that the license explicitly permitted it for 2018. Thanks for that.

I am confused though how they could justify removing it from 2018 AVRs in a 2019 firmware update, which usually also incorporate bug fixes. I guess they could do so if they partitioned it as an independent option, so you could only get some Dolby-exclusive enhancement by agreeing to accept the downgrade too. But for folks waiting on some promised future update, like Auro 13.1 support (? not really following the X8500), tying that to a Dolby downgrade doesn't seem either fair or reasonable.
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #49886 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 09:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,372
Mentioned: 413 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2798 Post(s)
Liked: 11943
Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
I believe the intent is that when a sound originates in the front-base, and proceeds overhead to the back, that the image tracks linearly. It doesn't perceptually "bow out" or "skew in". Is that nonsense?
Yes, that is nonsense, because being in line with the mains does not determine whether the object sounds like it is moving linearly. It will track linearly only if the angular separation of the speakers matches the assumptions made by the renderer. My main point on the whole "in line with the mains" issue, and to me, what proves that it is nonsense, is that it simply does not define the angle of the speaker. In almost every room, the only way to hit the proper angles and be in line with the mains would be to suspend the speaker in mid-air, and that's just impractical. But really, what benefit does being in line with mains have, anyway? The renderer can't possibly make an assumption that speakers are in line with the mains, because that would result in angles that vary from room to room, and the renderer has to make angular assumptions. I feel like this may need some illustrations to explain fully; maybe I'll have to take the time to draw some up at some point.

Maybe think of it as similar to the fact that in a perfect world, all of your speakers would be equidistant from you, but we have delay and level-matching to compensate for the fact that it just isn't practical in most cases. You wouldn't go and compromise all of your speaker angles just to make them equidistant. The angles being correct is far more important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
I assume after you've done that for the front pair, you rotate and repeat for the rear pair. Then what do you do about the .6 pair in the middle? Perhaps the story has an Epilogue?
Yes, and that was intended to be an example for a simple .4 case. Of course, when you start getting into more complicated setups like multi-row setups, there are compromises that need to be made, where you can optimize for the most consistent soundstage for all seats, or optimize for the best soundstage for a single seat or row. In the simple .6 case you speak of, my interpretation of the ITU layouts is that the Top Middle pair should be 90 degrees to the left and right, and have the same 45-degree elevation angle.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is offline  
post #49887 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 09:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
I am confused though how they could justify removing it from 2018 AVRs in a 2019 firmware update, which usually also incorporate bug fixes.
The change is for all previous years' receivers and pre-pros. So, for example, if a manufacturer issues a firmware upgrade or bug fix for a 2017 or 2016 product, they should also update the product to the current licensing specifications. The idea being to have all licensed products conformed to the same/latest spec if possible.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #49888 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 09:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Here's my Atmos speaker placement advice. Go to the MLP. Turn 45 degrees. Go up 45 degrees. Where are you pointing? That's where the speaker should go, if possible. Period. End of story.
45 degrees azimuth & elevation is exactly where the DTS:X renderer assumes their Height speaker to be. But that's not the Atmos rendering assumption, since Atmos doesn't use angles nor does it render relative to listener location. So your placement advice is not quite "end of story". At least not for Atmos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
The renderer can't possibly make an assumption that speakers are in line with the mains, because that would result in angles that vary from room to room...
And that's exactly what happens with Atmos. For example: the Atmos rendering assumptions for the Top Front speakers are midway between the Fronts & Sides (front to back) and splitting the L/C/Rs (left to right). That's where the renderer thinks those speakers are; in every set-up, in every room. That's how the format maintains consistency when translating from room to room. If a sound is mixed to render 1/3rd of the way from front to back, then that's where it will render in an Atmos movie theatre and an Atmos home set-up; irrespective of listener location. As you said, this will result in angles that vary from room to room.
kbarnes701 likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #49889 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 10:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The change is for all previous years' receivers and pre-pros. So, for example, if a manufacturer issues a firmware upgrade or bug fix for a 2017 or 2016 product, they should also update the product to the current licensing specifications. The idea being to have all licensed products conformed to the same/latest spec if possible.
Wow. That's vastly worse than I had been imagining. I can see where that might be attractive to Dolby, or another license authority. I can't see where it would be to anyone else.

When I decide to purchase a product, I look at it's features and capabilities, and select something that meets my needs. I buy an AVR for example, not because it's a 30 pound box that occupies about 1 cubic foot (it's intrinsic characteristics), but because it can do specific things. Many of which are licensed capabilities. What (I think) you're suggesting is that simply by changing licensing terms after the fact, that ANY such capability can be taken away, at any time. And the end-user is left with a product that is worse than it was when they bought it. This is a new concept to me.

In the long run, I can't see how this would be good even for Dolby. Consumer animosity isn't exactly an asset.
Sanjay likes this.
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #49890 of 56220 Old 06-01-2018, 10:42 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 27,987
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7252 Post(s)
Liked: 6286
Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
What (I think) you're suggesting is that simply by changing licensing terms after the fact, that ANY such capability can be taken away, at any time. And the end-user is left with a product that is worse than it was when they bought it. This is a new concept to me.
Doesn't this happen on smart phones and other devices? I read about people complaining when a feature disappears.
Quote:
In the long run, I can't see how this would be good even for Dolby.
Makes for consistency in how their technologies operate. Not unreasonable. Personally, I don't agree with their decision, especially after a lifetime of them promoting the notion of codec-agnostic processing, but it is their decision to make.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off