The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1728 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #51811 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
A point which I don't see in Keith's response is that you counted "Height 1" twice in your image. The "Height 1" speaker binding posts receive the same (but amplified) signals as the "Height1 " preamp outputs.
Good catch Selden. I didn't look too hard at the attachment coz the answer to the query is pretty standard stuff for anyone who has gotten into Atmos AVRs. Easy for someone coming to it for the first time to be confused.
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post #51812 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by musicallife View Post
Question about my Atmos setup At the risk of sounding 'dumb', here is my question

The atmos content I find is mostly 7.1.x , I am going to setup 5.1.4 for my home theater. Will 5.1.4 send the signal to all 4 Atmos speakers even when 7.1 content is played?
Don't quite understand your question. Atmos content isn't really labelled 7.x.x or 5.x.x - Atmos will use all the speakers your system is set up for. So if you have 9.1.6 for example, and an AVR that can process 9.1.6, Atmos will use all 15 speakers plus the sub. If OTOH you had an AVR limited to a 5.1.4 setup, then Atmos would use that setup instead. No information is discarded or lost - the information is 'split' between all the speakers in the system.

If you are using non-Atmos content - eg discs labelled 5.1 or 7.1 - then you can choose one of the upmixers (Dolby Surround Upmixer -- DSU -- or DTS Neural:X) which will upmix the regular non-Atmos content to the speakers you have. This means that your overhead speakers will make noise even when the content is pre-Atmos (for most of us that is the vast majority of our discs).

If your system is 5.1.4, all upmixed content will go to all speakers regardless of whether the content is originally 5.1 or 7.1. The aim of upmixing is to extract signals from the 'base format' (5.1 for example) and send the extracted signals to all the speakers in the system. So 5.1 can be upmixed to 7.1 or 5.1.2, 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 etc. If the content is already 7.1 and you have a 7.1 system, then no upmixing is needed because you have a speaker for each channel anyway.

Only discs labelled 'Atmos' will use the speakers in your Atmos setup (5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2, 7.1.4) without any upmixing being needed.

So the bottom line is: check the disc for the format it is recorded in. If it is Atmos, set your player to bitstream output and Atmos will 'find' all your speakers and use them. If the disc is labelled 5.1 or 7.1, use one of the upmixers if you want all your speakers, including overheads, to play sound.
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post #51813 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I can meet the angle requirement if I go with smaller speakers as suggested just above. I am in no hurry to change anything here but if/when I get the urge for a new AVR I think I would definitely want to consider Wides seriously. I have some 'spare' channels on one of my two miniDSP DDRC-88A units for Dirac-ing the Wides, so I'd just need an additional 2ch amp (and the speakers of course). Thanks for the encouragement!
I have a very narrow room (10.5 x 22). Do you think there would be any benefit to wides at all? There would be no way to timbre match them really as I'm running TD15's for my mains. These would have to be a 6" speaker to fit and not stick out a mile into the room when angling towards listening position.

I'm running pre atmos currently and am in the middle of a theater reno where I'm redoing seating position, columns, etc for Atmos upgrade and have been going back and forth on the positioning of the speakers. I have 2 rows of seating but the main row sees most all of the use.

I'm leaning towards 7.1.6 but in current use I don't see a lot of benefit from rear surrounds. I am also put off by those who state when using 6 overhead speakers that the centers get the majority of the signal. What's the point of running 6 up top if you're only using 2 of them?

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post #51814 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
I have a very narrow room (10.5 x 22). Do you think there would be any benefit to wides at all?
Sure, placing them midway between your Fronts and Surrounds will bridge that gap.
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What's the point of running 6 up top if you're only using 2 of them?
A couple of titles have been described that way. Are you assuming all Atmos mixes are like that? It would be like looking at complaints about particular Atmos titles that have practically no height info and asking what's the point of running height speakers at all.
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post #51815 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
^^^ If you want to go to more than 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 you need a unit with 9 channels of amplification and 11.2 channel processing. This would give you 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 'internally' and with the addition of an external 2 channel amp you could expand to 7.1.4 or 5.1.6 (11 channels in total). This is how my Marantz 7010 allows me to have a 7.x.4 setup (although I actually externally amplify all my channels, using the AVR more like a pre-pro).

(Apologies for tacked-on post - the editor wasn't responding when I tried to add this to the original post).
the attachment was a picture of Denon 4100/4200 ( i dont have any AVR yet )

if "HEIGHT1R" and "HEIGHT1L" = are two seperate channels, which make it 0.0.2

and "PRE OUT HEIGHT 1" and "PRE OUT HEIGHT 2" = are the same signal as HEIGHT1R and HEIGHT1L, which makes the situation stay at 0.0.2

what hole/port on, where do you plug in an external stereo amp ? to make it 0.0.4 seperate channels ?

because as far as i understand, you have set up 4 height speakers, but 2 of them emit the same sound, and so the other 2
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post #51816 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sure, placing them midway between your Fronts and Surrounds will bridge that gap. A couple of titles have been described that way. Are you assuming all Atmos mixes are like that? It would be like looking at complaints about particular Atmos titles that have practically no height info and asking what's the point of running height speakers at all.
So if one had to choose between rears and wides, which direction would make the most sense in my scenario?

I guess I'm not completely familiar with the ins and out of Atmos. I understand some titles have less information in the heights than others; what I've been led to believe is that when running 6 overheads; the default signal is sent to 2 and not all 6. If this not standard procedure than that's a different story.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #51817 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by upgradehomesetup View Post
the attachment was a picture of Denon 4100/4200 ( i dont have any AVR yet )

if "HEIGHT1R" and "HEIGHT1L" = are two seperate channels, which make it 0.0.2

and "PRE OUT HEIGHT 1" and "PRE OUT HEIGHT 2" = are the same signal as HEIGHT1R and HEIGHT1L, which makes the situation stay at 0.0.2

what hole/port on, where do you plug in an external stereo amp ? to make it 0.0.4 seperate channels ?

because as far as i understand, you have set up 4 height speakers, but 2 of them emit the same sound, and so the other 2
Connection issues are best dealt with in the thread specific to your AVR and are off topic here. Briefly, if you have connected the Height 1 L&R speaker terminals to one set of overhead speakers, you need to connect the external amp to the Height 2 preouts and then connect the speaker terminals on the external amp to the second set of overhead speakers.

Understand that your unit can only process 9.x channels at one time - 7 of these can be amplified by the AVR internal amps and the other two by the external 2 channel amp. So that is FR, C, FL, SR, SL and TFL and TFR via the internal amps (adding up to 7) and TRL and TRR (the other two) via the external amps.
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post #51818 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
I have a very narrow room (10.5 x 22). Do you think there would be any benefit to wides at all? There would be no way to timbre match them really as I'm running TD15's for my mains.
In addition to what Sanjay said... I wouldn't worry about 'timbre matching' if you are using some form of room EQ (eg Audyssey). That will sort out any tonal differences between speakers.
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post #51819 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Don't quite understand your question. Atmos content isn't really labelled 7.x.x or 5.x.x - Atmos will use all the speakers your system is set up for. So if you have 9.1.6 for example, and an AVR that can process 9.1.6, Atmos will use all 15 speakers plus the sub. If OTOH you had an AVR limited to a 5.1.4 setup, then Atmos would use that setup instead. No information is discarded or lost - the information is 'split' between all the speakers in the system.

If you are using non-Atmos content - eg discs labelled 5.1 or 7.1 - then you can choose one of the upmixers (Dolby Surround Upmixer -- DSU -- or DTS Neural:X) which will upmix the regular non-Atmos content to the speakers you have. This means that your overhead speakers will make noise even when the content is pre-Atmos (for most of us that is the vast majority of our discs).

If your system is 5.1.4, all upmixed content will go to all speakers regardless of whether the content is originally 5.1 or 7.1. The aim of upmixing is to extract signals from the 'base format' (5.1 for example) and send the extracted signals to all the speakers in the system. So 5.1 can be upmixed to 7.1 or 5.1.2, 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 etc. If the content is already 7.1 and you have a 7.1 system, then no upmixing is needed because you have a speaker for each channel anyway.

Only discs labelled 'Atmos' will use the speakers in your Atmos setup (5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2, 7.1.4) without any upmixing being needed.

So the bottom line is: check the disc for the format it is recorded in. If it is Atmos, set your player to bitstream output and Atmos will 'find' all your speakers and use them. If the disc is labelled 5.1 or 7.1, use one of the upmixers if you want all your speakers, including overheads, to play sound.
Awesome!! very well explained. Thanks a lot.
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post #51820 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
So if one had to choose between rears and wides, which direction would make the most sense in my scenario?



I guess I'm not completely familiar with the ins and out of Atmos. I understand some titles have less information in the heights than others; what I've been led to believe is that when running 6 overheads; the default signal is sent to 2 and not all 6. If this not standard procedure than that's a different story.

Rears are used much, much more than wides in Atmos mixes. Only use wides if you already have rears and your processor supports enough channels.


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post #51821 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
So if one had to choose between rears and wides, which direction would make the most sense in my scenario?
Rears (assuming your seating is not at or near the back wall). There are no Wide channels; never been any such thing in the history of movie sound. Those speakers are fed with objects (Atmos) or a combination of objects & matrix extraction (DTS:X). By comparison, Rears are channels; they exist on every Atmos, DTS:X and 7.1 soundtrack.
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post #51822 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Rears are used much, much more than wides in Atmos mixes. Only use wides if you already have rears and your processor supports enough channels.


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Rears (assuming your seating is not at or near the back wall). There are no Wide channels; never been any such thing in the history of movie sound. Those speakers are fed with objects (Atmos) or a combination of objects & matrix extraction (DTS:X). By comparison, Rears are channels; they exist on every Atmos, DTS:X and 7.1 soundtrack.
Thank you. Can the Denon 8500 do 9.1.4? If so, would this make more sense than 7.1.6?

I can't help but think the improved base layer would be more instrumental in creating a realistic sound stage than an additional 2 overheads?

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #51823 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 10:23 AM
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Can the Denon 8500 do 9.1.4? If so, would this make more sense than 7.1.6?
Yes and yes.
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I can't help but think the improved base layer would be more instrumental in creating a realistic sound stage than an additional 2 overheads?
Agreed; most of the information in an immersive soundtrack is in the base layer, so that's where I'd start adding speakers when going beyond 7.1.4.

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post #51824 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
Thank you. Can the Denon 8500 do 9.1.4? If so, would this make more sense than 7.1.6?



I can't help but think the improved base layer would be more instrumental in creating a realistic sound stage than an additional 2 overheads?

I found that when I added a middle row of Atmos ceiling speakers it provides better overhead effects since the middle row was directly overhead.

Wides are not used often but it’s up to personal preference and hard to know which is the best solution. I am adding wides as well and will test back and forth since my processor “only” supports 13 speakers plus subs. My next processor will support 15 speakers plus subs so I will have the wides and 6 Atmos ceiling speakers active.


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post #51825 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 11:42 AM
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I found that when I added a middle row of Atmos ceiling speakers it provides better overhead effects since the middle row was directly overhead.

Wides are not used often but it’s up to personal preference and hard to know which is the best solution. I am adding wides as well and will test back and forth since my processor “only” supports 13 speakers plus subs. My next processor will support 15 speakers plus subs so I will have the wides and 6 Atmos ceiling speakers active.


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Well heights are much easier to implement in my room than wides so I'll probably plan on 6 heights and then wire for wides and experiment to see which works better. When I first built the theater I wired for FW and FH, and stole the wiring from those two spots for TF/TR. Hindsight lol.

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post #51826 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 11:50 AM
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Well heights are much easier to implement in my room than wides so I'll probably plan on 6 heights and then wire for wides and experiment to see which works better. When I first built the theater I wired for FW and FH, and stole the wiring from those two spots for TF/TR. Hindsight lol.


Ha. Tell me about it. I wired for 7.1 back in 2011 and had to do some extensive time in my extremely hot attic and remodeled the entire front of my theater to get the six heights and wides wired. Not fun but worth it!

In ten years we will be saying “I wish I would have known about the new Dolby Atmos in-floor speakers so I could have pre-wired”


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post #51827 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Ha. Tell me about it. I wired for 7.1 back in 2011 and had to do some extensive time in my extremely hot attic and remodeled the entire front of my theater to get the six heights and wides wired. Not fun but worth it!

In ten years we will be saying “I wish I would have known about the new Dolby Atmos in-floor speakers so I could have pre-wired”


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My wife has accused me of having the theater torn apart more than it's together. I find myself upgrading a lot.

I initially wired it for component (if that tells you anything lol) with my first Panny pj. I then had to rewire for HDMI, then heights and wides, then more subs, then ................................. I really wish I had a HT crystal ball.

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post #51828 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 12:48 PM
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The "fun" of HT and DIY as a "hobby" is endlessly and thankfully (?) exacerbated by "What If?".

The "absence" of wides, annoying(?), wishful thinking(?). , industry failure ,

I set up my surrounds so I might have an option, depending on the source . . movies in particular

it came from discussions about a better sonic "tie" to the LCR - i.e. Dude! Where's my Wides. (pun intended)

it's not a "lot" of movement forward 20" or so, (CTC horn positioning)/ angulation closer to the LCR.

but i hadn't seen any ( basically NONE!) "mobile" surround set-ups even in my brief life here at AVS

so I just had to do it . . because : speakers ( and studs in the right place)

but those 15" SEOS horns will create an amazing sound field if given a chance

HTH
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post #51829 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 01:26 PM
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The "fun" of HT and DIY as a "hobby" is endlessly and thankfully (?) exacerbated by "What If?".

The "absence" of wides, annoying(?), wishful thinking(?). , industry failure ,

I set up my surrounds so I might have an option, depending on the source . . movies in particular

it came from discussions about a better sonic "tie" to the LCR - i.e. Dude! Where's my Wides. (pun intended)

it's not a "lot" of movement forward 20" or so, (CTC horn positioning)/ angulation closer to the LCR.

but i hadn't seen any ( basically NONE!) "mobile" surround set-ups even in my brief life here at AVS

so I just had to do it . . because : speakers ( and studs in the right place)

but those 15" SEOS horns will create an amazing sound field if given a chance

HTH
That's too funny. Matt and I designed one of the first iterations of that setup a few years back. It's a SEOS/TD6m combination. I originally built them for my FH. I'd love to move them to the FW position, but they'd stick way too far out into the room.

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post #51830 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 01:56 PM
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In ten years we will be saying “I wish I would have known about the new Dolby Atmos in-floor speakers so I could have pre-wired”
In concrete? Don't think so!
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post #51831 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 01:59 PM
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In concrete? Don't think so!

Well obviously they will have the on-floor micro mesh version made from graphene that you roll out under the carpet to cover the entire floor

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post #51832 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 05:10 PM
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Suggestions for future Atmos upgrade

I have not visited the audio forums in a while (time sucked up by projector forums), and I have tried to catch up as much as possible, so excuse me if this information is already available somewhere here or related thread. I wante to solicit some advice for my current setup.

I have a 7.2.4 setup, using a Marantz SR7010. I have a two rows of seating but the second row is against a rear wall. I installed 4 overhead speakers, one pair in front of first row, one in between the two rows. These are configured as TF and TR. Pretty good so far, obviously second row is not as immersive, but there is nothing I can do about that. I only care for Atmos/DTS:X, never looked into Auro.

IF I consider a future upgrade to add more speakers, what is the best option? I don't think front wides will be of much benefit as I have a scope screen and my L/R are near the corners of the room already, minimizing the gap, I think. Would front heights be better? Are they part of the atmos object layout? Do upmix logic pick them up? I think I read in the Denon forum that you can only configure 3 pairs of top speakers, please correct me if I am wrong. In which case I don't think I gain a whole lot.

Thanks again for any suggestions.
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post #51833 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I have a 7.2.4 setup, using a Marantz SR7010. I have a two rows of seating but the second row is against a rear wall. I installed 4 overhead speakers, one pair in front of first row, one in between the two rows. These are configured as TF and TR. Pretty good so far, obviously second row is not as immersive, but there is nothing I can do about that. I only care for Atmos/DTS:X, never looked into Auro.

IF I consider a future upgrade to add more speakers, what is the best option? I don't think front wides will be of much benefit as I have a scope screen and my L/R are near the corners of the room already, minimizing the gap, I think. Would front heights be better? Are they part of the atmos object layout? Do upmix logic pick them up? I think I read in the Denon forum that you can only configure 3 pairs of top speakers, please correct me if I am wrong. In which case I don't think I gain a whole lot.

Your Marantz SR7010 tops out at 11 channel processing, for either 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. The only way to add an extra pair of heights is to upgrade to the Denon X8500H receiver or Marantz AV8805 pre-pro. If you were to do that and set up 6 height channels, they would need to be either FH-TM-RH or TF-TM-TR. You cannot have Front Height and Top Front adjacent to one another and active simultaneously.

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post #51834 of 55459 Old 09-28-2018, 11:27 PM
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In ten years we will be saying “I wish I would have known about the new Dolby Atmos in-floor speakers so I could have pre-wired”

The forthcoming Dolby AC-4 codec makes provision for three "below the screen" speaker locations: Bottom Front Left|Center|Right (Bfl|Bfc|Bfr). However, there's no sign of any in-floor speakers . . . so maybe you'll be able to defer that particular self-recrimination for at least twenty years.


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post #51835 of 55459 Old 09-29-2018, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Your Marantz SR7010 tops out at 11 channel processing, for either 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. The only way to add an extra pair of heights is to upgrade to the Denon X8500H receiver or Marantz AV8805 pre-pro.
Or you can spend an additional ~$10K (or more) and get one of the high-end 16 channel devices....

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post #51836 of 55459 Old 09-29-2018, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Your Marantz SR7010 tops out at 11 channel processing, for either 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. The only way to add an extra pair of heights is to upgrade to the Denon X8500H receiver or Marantz AV8805 pre-pro. If you were to do that and set up 6 height channels, they would need to be either FH-TM-RH or TF-TM-TR. You cannot have Front Height and Top Front adjacent to one another and active simultaneously.
Yes, an eventual upgrade will be needed. But from everything I have read so far, it is very diminishing returns from 7.2.4 to add more channels. I will likely funnel my discretionary dollars to the video side where there is more bang for the buck.
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post #51837 of 55459 Old 09-29-2018, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
The forthcoming Dolby AC-4 codec makes provision for three "below the screen" speaker locations: Bottom Front Left|Center|Right (Bfl|Bfc|Bfr). However, there's no sign of any in-floor speakers . . . so maybe you'll be able to defer that particular self-recrimination for at least twenty years.





_

Can you provide a link from Dolby that discusses these “below the screen” speaker positions. I do not see any mention of it on the Dolby AC4 site.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5 for surround & ceiling
Subs: JTR Captivator S2, JTR Captivator S1, 2 Seaton Submersive (dual 15")
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #51838 of 55459 Old 09-29-2018, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
The forthcoming Dolby AC-4 codec makes provision for three "below the screen" speaker locations: Bottom Front Left|Center|Right (Bfl|Bfc|Bfr). However, there's no sign of any in-floor speakers . . . so maybe you'll be able to defer that particular self-recrimination for at least twenty years.





_

AC-4 is a new compression technology for broadcast and all I see mentioned is 5.1 plus heights. I don’t think this has anything to do with new speaker locations.


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7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5 for surround & ceiling
Subs: JTR Captivator S2, JTR Captivator S1, 2 Seaton Submersive (dual 15")
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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post #51839 of 55459 Old 09-29-2018, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
The forthcoming Dolby AC-4 codec makes provision for three "below the screen" speaker locations: Bottom Front Left|Center|Right (Bfl|Bfc|Bfr). However, there's no sign of any in-floor speakers . . . so maybe you'll be able to defer that particular self-recrimination for at least twenty years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Can you provide a link from Dolby that discusses these “below the screen” speaker positions. I do not see any mention of it on the Dolby AC4 site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
AC-4 is a new compression technology for broadcast and all I see mentioned is 5.1 plus heights. I don’t think this has anything to do with new speaker locations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Even ignoring the likely NHK specific 22.2 layout, it appears AC-4 offers eight delivery channel configurations for content distribution by broadcast, streaming, download, or disc (should we expect to see an AC-4 extension substream added to TrueHD soundtracks on BD?) However, as with previous codecs such as Atmos, it seems likely the number of speakers a processor can utilize for playback will be related to its price.



__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________
Source: ETSI TS 103 190-2 V1.1.1 (2015-09) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard Part 2: Immersive and personalized audio (link)


Other pertinent documents:
Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-2 (07/2018) Advanced sound system for programme production (link)
ETSI TS 103 190 V1.1.1 (2014-04) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard (link)

Notes:
REC 2051 has been revised since my original 2/2017 post. New version shown here.
ETSI docs may have been replaced by revised versions...?


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post #51840 of 55459 Old 10-01-2018, 10:10 PM
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New guy here and need opinions on my planned ceiling speaker placements (future proofingish).
I currently run a 5.2.2 config but would like to go to a 7.2.6 config in the distant future.

The plan is to install 6 speakers new speakers and keep the other two in place for the time being.
Then use the mid and rear pairs as front and rear Atmos for a 5.1.4
I have an inclined ceiling that starts at 8' and stops at 9' as represented by the hashed lines.
Sectional couch seating.


The room is 21x17 with 3 windows on the right and a 7' open archway on the left.


The circled As are the current ceiling speakers in place.


Does my planned atmos speaker locations acceptable?
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