The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1753 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #52561 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 09:51 AM
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Rest easy....I just ordered the Crown DCI4/300n amp and JBL 705i speakers. No sense counting ROI at this point....its AVS. The new setup will be 7.x.4.

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+1
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post #52562 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 10:32 AM
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post #52563 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 10:52 AM
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But my real point is your 'meh'. This is exactly what you will get if you talk to 99% of people and mention 5.1. They have a soundbar and are happy with it. You are forgetting that everyone on AVS is an enthusiast, so what is applicable to the public at large, is not applicable to the members here.

Your suggestion that studios will abandon Atmos because most consumers aren't interested in it is no different to suggesting that they would abandon 5.1 for the exact same reason - most consumers aren't interested in it. The latter didn't happen, and neither will the former.
Very well put, and 100% agree.
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post #52564 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 11:25 AM
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So probably not Dolby then?
While some are just dual-mono, others include matrixed surround-sound: DPL II frequently provides dialog in the center speaker channel with effects in the other speakers.

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post #52565 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 11:26 AM
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post #52566 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 11:30 AM
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Atmos is here to stay and not comparable to 3D


More and more manufacturers are offering it in their products.
You see Atmos listed as a feature in SMART PHONES now.
In 4K UHD Blu-rays it's the standard soundtrack for companies like Disney, Sony, Lionsgate who will remix everything into the format.
Netflix, iTunes just added it fairly recently.


ATSC 3.0...video games on the XBOX One and PC...


The list goes on.
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post #52567 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Isn't all of that also true of 5.1? Do you feel that every 5,1 mix is stellar, and was so from the very beginning? My experience is different: I have literally hundreds of 5.1 movies which are average, and which make little use of the surround channels. Does that mean 5.1 is not worthwhile as well?

Now that object mixing is here to stay, I can't really understand a decision to rip all the Atmos stuff out to go backwards to the last century. Different strokes I guess...
Yep. The mix is the key element in a TrueHD Atmos mix, as it is in every other codec. I got another horrible example of that from Disney last night (what else is new?) when I watched my UHD HDR TrueHD Atmos version of Incredibles 2. The film is terrific and I was well entertained but its supposedly immersive audio was an epic fail. The soundtrack delivered little if any audio to my overhead speakers. I've heard a few supposedly immersive soundtracks, which woefully underutilize my system's Atmos speakers but Incredibles 2 represented a new low. Why won't Disney do TrueHD Atmos right? your guess is as good as mine.
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post #52568 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 01:20 PM
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Yep. The mix is the key element in a TrueHD Atmos mix, as it is in every other codec. I got another horrible example of that from Disney last night (what else is new?) when I watched my UHD HDR TrueHD Atmos version of Incredibles 2. The film is terrific and I was well entertained but its supposedly immersive audio was an epic fail. The soundtrack delivered little if any audio to my overhead speakers. I've heard a few supposedly immersive soundtracks, which woefully underutilize my system's Atmos speakers but Incredibles 2 represented a new low. Why won't Disney do TrueHD Atmos right? your guess is as good as mine.
+1. I watched that movie last week and felt the same. The mix overall isn't bad, but it is supposed to be immersive. And there were plenty of (missed) opportunities to light up the overheads, although to be fair they were utilised at least some of the time. Disney really does seem to have almost entirely lost the plot. By way of contrast I also watched Mission Impossible: Fallout this week and, boy, do the overhead shine in some of the scenes! The helicopter scenes towards the end of the movie are a master-class of how to do it.
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post #52569 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Disney really does seem to have almost entirely lost the plot
You mean that company who owns Marvel, Star Wars, and countless other titles that could be bombastically Atmos? Talk about a worse case scenario. Why couldn't it be Lionsgate or some other studio that rains on the Atmos parade. No, it has to be the juggernaut holding the huge bag of goodies - the perfect storm
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post #52570 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 01:41 PM
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You mean that company who owns Marvel, Star Wars, and countless other titles that could be bombastically Atmos? Talk about a worse case scenario. Why couldn't it be Lionsgate or some other studio that rains on the Atmos parade. No, it has to be the juggernaut holding the huge bag of goodies - the perfect storm
TBH they're not all terrible. But yeah, WTF!
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post #52571 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 04:45 PM
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I got another horrible example of that from Disney last night (what else is new?) when I watched my UHD HDR TrueHD Atmos version of Incredibles 2. The film is terrific and I was well entertained but its supposedly immersive audio was an epic fail. The soundtrack delivered little if any audio to my overhead speakers. I've heard a few supposedly immersive soundtracks, which woefully underutilize my system's Atmos speakers but Incredibles 2 represented a new low. Why won't Disney do TrueHD Atmos right? your guess is as good as mine.

That's disappointing. I'm hosting a movie night soon for the neighbors and their kids and that's what they want to watch. THEY will probably be blown away by the presentation, but I'll notice. I just won't say anything and they'll still be happy.

COME ON, DISNEY...
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post #52572 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 05:44 PM
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I don't really agree with much of what you wrote, and see no real comparison with 3-D which is a 60 year old technology resurrected as opposed to an entirely new ground-breaking technology just invented. Object mixing is here to stay and has already become the de facto standard in Hollywood, involving massive investment and retraining, so I can't see them deciding to just abandon it and go backwards.

But my real point is your 'meh'. This is exactly what you will get if you talk to 99% of people and mention 5.1. They have a soundbar and are happy with it. You are forgetting that everyone on AVS is an enthusiast, so what is applicable to the public at large, is not applicable to the members here.

Your suggestion that studios will abandon Atmos because most consumers aren't interested in it is no different to suggesting that they would abandon 5.1 for the exact same reason - most consumers aren't interested in it. The latter didn't happen, and neither will the former.

I agree, maybe my post was not detailed enough.

I do not see Hollywood abandoning Atmos, my observation was consumer home based.

Any business model that does not meet consumer expectations is not going to thrive. It is here to stay in the theaters for sure and will be on the home use disks.


But consumer implementation will be low because it falls short of expectations, like you said, most will get a Atmos soundbar and say they have Atmos for the prestige of it.....it sells, so it will stay.



Unfortunately when it comes to mixes we are hostage, for now, to the directors intent...…..what the consumers want is not being met.


Its like any finicky "Artist".....they have a vision and since its a watch it or watch nothing option, people watch it, but even here amongst the upper end of the spectrum, we all pretty say the same thing, implementation could be better and more. Regular consumers are not impressed...………


That's the part I was talking about with 3-d and Atmos,....pretty much all the lackluster content is because of the artist/director, not a limitation of the tech. They have a "Vision" of what Atmos should be, just like the regular consumer has a vision of what it should be, most consumers are Meh on the content the artists vision is producing.


Atmos is here to stay and I have it, like it and will get as much as possible...….


But it is falling way short of consumers expectations because of the directors/artists vision...….thank goodness this tech is widely available and becoming decentralized...…..I will be even getting the Atmos mixing dolby tools once I move to my new place.



When you have a consumer base that is hungry for "Bull horns from the heavens"....a content creator will come a long and produce to that market...….



Even when stereo music became available, many shunned it for quite a while and only a handful of artists took advantage of it...….Atmos is ripe for some one to take full advantage of it, right now it is wonderful for a few seconds, but Meh overall,....the consuming masses are disinterested as it has no bang, no flair...….nothing stands out in a good mix, because for a producer, a ideal Atmos mix sounds just like 2 people talking in a room normally does. Do you ever think when conversating,..WOW, this is soo cool, I can hear the person talking to me from all over.around me. No, it just sounds normal,......so with the current producers mindset, the perfect mix will be normal at best, no one is going to jump up and down over that.



Where the frontier of Atmos currently is cutting edge are the few clubs around the world that feature real time Atmos mixing, they are able to see first hand instant crowd reactions to content, what people like and what they never even notice.


Nolan is a perfect example, while many consider Dunkirk to be a poster child for horrible clipped audio, he understands what sells, he does not use Atmos. While I am not a huge fan of his audio, he has a good grasp on what consumers want, so he offered up his vision that catered to that and won a award for what many in the sound community consider a mess when it comes to the audio.


The consumer base is ripe for bullhorns from the heavens and until that time, at best, Atmos will be Meh to most consumers. Its not a problem with the tech, as always it is the artist/directors that are the problem as much as they are the reason for a movies success, is the same they are the reason for Meh Atmos opinions. Atmos the tech is outstanding, Atmos the content is Meh, why ?....directors and artists vision.

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post #52573 of 58868 Old 12-07-2018, 05:47 PM
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I handle strategic relationships for a production library company that is part of Universal Music Group. For every "commercial" song in a movie, there are several pieces of production music (all that other music, also used in sports programming, commercials, corporate video etc etc etc)

One thing many post houses (for all types of video) are really getting into today is music delivered in STEMS format, basically its like a master with every instrument normally on a different track. In the past the music was delivered in Stereo with some edits. The STEMS give them the ability to do more things with the music, a lot more things, this is because sound is becoming even more important in movies today (and other content).

In virtual reality there is "3D sound/360 sound" which is basically atmos on steroids. They can even attach a particular sound/instrument to a visual item and have that sound move with that item This opens up a lot of possibilities for atmos or atmos like content for movies, gaming etc.

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post #52574 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 02:48 AM
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That's disappointing. I'm hosting a movie night soon for the neighbors and their kids and that's what they want to watch. THEY will probably be blown away by the presentation, but I'll notice. I just won't say anything and they'll still be happy.

COME ON, DISNEY...
It's not too bad really. Turn up the MV a bit -- the overheads are used but not enough. Overall the sound is pretty good though. Just not as good as it could have been.
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post #52575 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 02:59 AM
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But consumer implementation will be low because it falls short of expectations, like you said, most will get a Atmos soundbar and say they have Atmos for the prestige of it.....it sells, so it will stay.
See @PeterTHX 's comments above. Atmos is being implemented everywhere.

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Atmos is ripe for some one to take full advantage of it, right now it is wonderful for a few seconds, but Meh overall
This is not my experience here in my HT. I have about 130 Atmos discs and almost all of them have fabulous sound. Many of them are stellar. Object based mixing has brought huge, audible improvements IMO and I hear them in almost every Atmos movie I own. Sure, the use of the overhead speakers is often disappointing to some extent, but Atmos is about so much more than sounds from above. For me it is the precision with which sounds are placed in the three-dimensional space that impresses me the most. But I am massively keen on precise imagining and my room is treated to the nth degree, as well as being designed from the ground up, so maybe that explains why I can so readily hear the benefits of these object mixes.

As for the format dying out for home use because most consumers aren't interested, well you could apply that to the entirety of the HT spectrum, but it still won't be true or correct. 99% of consumers could care less about 5.1, but we still get it on every disc. 99% of consumers could care less about AVRs, but they still get sold. 99% of consumers could care less about UHD but it's here to stay. And so on and on. You seem to be missing the point that so long as there is sufficient demand, manufacturers will be there to meet it. That's why Ferrari still sell cars even though 99% of consumers aren't interested. That's why Panerai still sell $20,000 wristwatches. And so on.

If we are still around in 10 years time I'll set you a wager: I bet you $100 that in 10 years time Atmos will be the defacto audio format on Blu-ray/UHD and that all streaming services of any size or quality (eg Netflix, Amazon etc) will be offering it routinely.
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post #52576 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 03:41 AM
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Even when stereo music became available, many shunned it for quite a while and only a handful of artists took advantage of it...
Wow, is that really true? Sounds like fantastic hyperbole to me, but it was before I was born.

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post #52577 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 03:49 AM
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Wow, is that really true? Sounds like fantastic hyperbole to me, but it was before I was born.
It's sort of true (I was there). LPs were mono. Then stereo came along and still most LPs were mono. Bound to be the case - new technology can't be installed in studios all over the world overnight. Same with players - people had mono players. It took some time for people to shift to stereo. Eventually all LPs and all players were stereo. People loved it and adopted it and really, they had no choice because all LPs were being issued in stereo and all new players were stereo.

Atmos will be the same. Small start, then gradual industry-wide adoption as studios swap out their old gear for new, then it becomes the de facto standard, just as stereo did, and then 5.1 much later.

The argument that 'most people don't want it so it won't happen' is just plain wrong. It's never been right (see my case for niche cars, watches, everything above). Niche products exist everywhere you look. The demand isn't universal but it doesn't matter - those manufacturers in the game aren't aiming for universal adoption - they are trying to gain penetration in their chosen niche. People putting 11 or more speakers in their rooms will always be niche. Doesn't mean it will just go away. Never has, never will.

BTW, early stereo records were awful. Producers justy put half the track in the left speaker and the other half in the right speaker, so you'd get lead and bass in the left and rhythm and drums in the right for example. Early Beatles stereo LPs were classics of this sort. The producers were learning. So most early stereo releases were very disappointing. Then the creators of the content learned about it and things rapidly improved. Sound familiar?
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post #52578 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 03:53 AM
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It's sort of true (I was there). LPs were mono. Then stereo came along and still most LPs were mono. Bound to be the case - new technology can't be installed in studios all over the world overnight. Same with players - people had mono players. It took some time for people to shift to stereo. Eventually all LPs and all players were stereo. People loved it and adopted it and really, they had no choice because all LPs were being issued in stereo and all new players were stereo.
Right, I'm happy with all of that, for the reasons that you explain.

What I massively doubt was the alternative reason he gave, it was because MOST ARTISTS hated it and were shunning it out of choice, and "only a handful" of artists wanted stereo sound. It is that which I think is ludicrous. It would be like claiming that most movie creators desperately wanted to stick with mono and I can only think of one (Kubrick). That's why I questioned it.

ps. I've heard "Beatles stereo". Awful I agree. Yes, part of a learning process.
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post #52579 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 04:16 AM
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See @PeterTHX 's comments above. Atmos is being implemented everywhere.




I still think you are not understanding where I am coming from....I agree with what you are saying.



I also said it was being implemented every where and is not going anywhere.



CONSUMERS are not implementing it every where, in fact, most have never heard of it and those that have are not purchasing any equipment.



Why, because they want bullhorns from the heavens...….so they say Meh to it.


I don`t say meh to it, I have it and will only be expanding my set up farther as it is great stuff...…...what I am saying is consumers drive the market too, especially on home equipment, at this point manufactures do not think it is important enough to even put on the front of a disk for the consumer to see, like was plastered all over the disks when DTS came around.



The general populations reaction to Atmos is meh...…..not mine......the next step is why, which is content as I explained, it simply does not meet their expectations, so they move on with life.


As for me, I am eying one of the new affordable .6 channel Atmos recievers…….it has moved to high on the list for me....
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Right, I'm happy with all of that, for the reasons that you explain.

What I massively doubt was the alternative reason he gave, it was because MOST ARTISTS hated it and were shunning it out of choice, and "only a handful" of artists wanted stereo sound. It is that which I think is ludicrous. It would be like claiming that most movie creators desperately wanted to stick with mono and I can only think of one (Kubrick). That's why I questioned it.

ps. I've heard "Beatles stereo". Awful I agree. Yes, part of a learning process.

I did not claim it was the artists, I said people....same group we have now that think anything other than 2 channel is wrong, consumers for the most part.


There were content creators that pushed for stereo and those that pushed against it, just like now,...Nolan being a perfect example, to him Atmos sound is parlor tricks to be used by directors with no talent, not my words, Nolans words, in a nutshell, he was way more PC about it.




But your post does bring up a key point, part of the learning process...….we are in the infant stages of Atmos, most of the content is bound to be poor implementation, which it is......none of it even comes close to the demo disks, which do wow consumers by the way. The tech is outstanding, implementation is what is lacking. That's why the general public walks away with a meh and implementation comes down to the content creators.....directors/artists.


The platform is very capable of delivering, utilization is not up to par yet with capabilities or expectations, so the consumers are not flocking to it.


Most of the cutting edge content right now is focused on ambience, making it sound like you are in a forest, or at a concert, the other side of the coin from bullhorns from above, which is what most consumers want.


I mean its easy to see the lack of quality content when people are buying Kraftwerk disks because they have some discreet panning and fly over objects happening in Atmos. Sales of that disk is probably about 95% over what it would be without Atmos. People are desperate for some great use of the heights that go beyond ambience, I like that is gives a pretty realistic sound of being in a environment, but you have to be into audio to appreciate that. The consumers wants fireworks exploding in those speakers non stop......or as stated, bullhorns from the heavens.....


Your experience might be different with the people you talk to, see daily or don`t see...….I am just putting out what I see and hear and with a retail store, I get to see a lot of people...………

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post #52581 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 04:54 AM
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we are in the infant stages of Atmos, most of the content is bound to be poor implementation, which it is......none of it even comes close to the demo disks, which do wow consumers by the way.
Disagree there. The Atmos track on the remastered UHD disc of the original Blade Runner exceeds the demo disks IMO. Just as one example.
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post #52582 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 04:58 AM
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The platform is very capable of delivering, utilization is not up to par yet with capabilities or expectations, so the consumers are not flocking to it.
Consumers aren't 'flocking to it' because the implementation isn't up to their expectations. They'e not flocking to it because a) most of them could care less about movie audio in the home, b) most don't want to festoon their living rooms with speakers, c) most of them have never even heard of Atmos and never will.

Consumers in general aren't 'flocking to' 5.1 either. I have a lot of friends and many more acquaintances. I am the only one with Atmos. I am one of the few who has even heard of Atmos. None of my friends (other than forum members or AV dealers) has anything more than a soundbar, and most of them have crappy soundbars too.

I can't quite get your obsession with consumers at large not 'flocking to' Atmos, or indeed to anything else discussed in these threads. Are consumers 'flocking to' REW or to Dirac Live? Of course not. Does that mean they will somehow disappear? Of course not.
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post #52583 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 09:07 AM
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i did not claim it was the artists, i said people....
False:
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even when stereo music became available, many shunned it for quite a while and only a handful of artists took advantage of it...
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post #52584 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 12:33 PM
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Is dolby atmos here for good?

Just wondering if you guys think dolby atmos will be around for good?
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post #52585 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 12:45 PM
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Sure.

It's backwards compatible with non-Atmos hardware, so it's not like Atmos is highly restrictive.

It is not similar to the quadraphonic vinyl disk technology of the 70s.
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post #52586 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 01:05 PM
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Seeing how it's been seemingly a challenge to get just 5.1, in a proper set up as a standard for simple living room home theater (1992) I would bet more towards atmos dissolving into "pseudo atmos" and most consumers looking up from their hand held devises and saying atmo what?

Music, more music.
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post #52587 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 01:08 PM
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Well I just ordered a Monolith 7x200 and another pair of Venere 1.5 to complete my 7.2.4 Atmos setup Hopefully it is worth the candle!

Dedicated Sonus faber HT 7.2.4 | FRONTS: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 CENTER: Sonus Faber Venere Centre FRONT WIDES: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 SURROUNDS: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 TF/TR - ATMOS-DTS:X: Sonus Faber Venere Wall (4) | RECEIVER: Marantz SR7010 AMPLIFICATION: Monolith 7x200 | SUBWOOFERS: Dual 18" Dayton RSS460 Custom Build | Behringer iNuke 6000DSP | Velodyne SMS-1 DISPLAY: JVC D-ILA RS-46 w/ 128" 16:9 1.4 TREATMENT: Custom Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels (11)
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post #52588 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 01:12 PM
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My concern is that even 5.1 setups are pretty rare. Go around all the people you know and how many of them even have 5.1? I can count 4 with one Atmos setup (5.2.2) How can they make it profitable? I have no idea.

Some very good shows lately come out with just 2.0 audio mix: The Bodyguard, Yellowstone, etc.
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Dedicated Sonus faber HT 7.2.4 | FRONTS: Sonus Faber Venere 2.0 CENTER: Sonus Faber Venere Centre FRONT WIDES: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 SURROUNDS: Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 TF/TR - ATMOS-DTS:X: Sonus Faber Venere Wall (4) | RECEIVER: Marantz SR7010 AMPLIFICATION: Monolith 7x200 | SUBWOOFERS: Dual 18" Dayton RSS460 Custom Build | Behringer iNuke 6000DSP | Velodyne SMS-1 DISPLAY: JVC D-ILA RS-46 w/ 128" 16:9 1.4 TREATMENT: Custom Bass Traps and Acoustic Panels (11)
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post #52589 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
False:




I am not going to argue, my bad for not being clear enough...….


There is a difference between "Using" and taking advantage of...….many used it, few took advantage. I hope that clears up what I meant.

Example of the difference below …….


ps. I've heard "Beatles stereo". Awful I agree. .
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post #52590 of 58868 Old 12-08-2018, 01:30 PM
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In think so, yes.., I love the overhead effects for movies

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