The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1820 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #54571 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by timvb15 View Post
I hope this isn’t a silly question but when measuring the height for surrounds at 1.2m where do you measure from? The base of the speaker? The middle of the speaker? The middle of the tweeter? In my case Polk RC65I.

Seen as I’ll be using 4 atmos in ceiling speakers in a 5.1.4 set up is 1.2m height for the surrounds still ok or should I mount them a little lower?
The actual precision at the inch level is not important. You can use whatever reference you want, I used the tweeter. Atmos is a forgiving audio sound system, just try to get close to the recommended angles. The angles will tell you the needed height. Use all the height you can, do not lower the overhead speakers and keep the ear-level speakers low enough for good separation between ear layer and ceiling layer.

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post #54572 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Good to know.

Any titles not on dfa973's list?
Do note that my list was not about FW usage (I do not have FW, so can't test), but for floating and moving 3D sound objects in midair, "inside the room", not sounds that just appear and disappear high or low. The kind of movies where the sound mixer really did his job to reconstruct the scene with audio objects.

Think "3D movies with negative parallax" but less cheesy...

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post #54573 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KapaaIan View Post
So I am in a really early (like, still need to clean the part of the basement I need to finish early) planning stages for a dedicated room. Time and effort isn't much of an issue (and family members will be doing most of the work). Room will be furred out to be ~16.3ft L, 11.2ft W and 7ft H. No architectural anomalies.

While the ultimate speaker selections will come down the line, I think I have the basics of how things will be set up. Trying to work this all through my head has been consuming a bit too much of my thought process lately but I think I'm in a good place now with most things.

The part I am still are the ceilings. The heat death of Auro-3D seems to indicate that I don't need to worry about configuration for it (though I may put speaker wires to those locations just in case something else comes along that wants speakers in those locations) that leaves Atmos. The ceiling is currently a painted wood but will (probably) get replaced.

So my question is, ceiling mounted bookshelf or in ceiling speakers? From my research/thoughts, the pros of the in ceiling seem to be aesthetics and safety (since the ceiling is relatively low) and more space between speakers and listening position. Cons are lower quality vs comparable priced bookshelf, harder to upgrade/replace. The bookshelf speakers will generally be higher quality but closer to the ground, but (relatively) easy to swap out.

Am I missing something? I feel like the dispersion for the in-ceiling speakers would be better (being flatter in the ceiling) but at the same time, they may not be aimable enough themselves (like with the Klipsch in ceilings). All wiring for all potential speakers ever will take place before any are bought so trying to answer this in some way....
So a major factor with your room is going to be the 7ft ceiling height which is really low even by domestic room standards. That means (1) you're going to want to save every inch of space which means in-ceiling will be preferred over a bookshelf speaker hanging down and (2) dispersion / coverage angles / aim will be critical if you want to get even coverage and avoid hot-spotting.

I wouldn't worry about the quality issue -- Atmos speakers don't get THAT much content and you can get decent quality in-ceilings for not that much $$. Another benefit you didn't mention is acoustics, where flush-mounted speakers have a an advance of not having to worry about boundary interference (SBIR). A con you didn't mention is the increased difficulty in aiming, where if you need to aim the typical down-firing in-ceiling speaker might not be good enough and you want to make sure that you get an angled speaker.
+1

Also, I have almost exactly the same dimension of room as you and went with all monitor audio gold speakers for base level and atmos in ceiling. They are inceiling and amiable tweeters. Loving the sound

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post #54574 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
+1

Also, I have almost exactly the same dimension of room as you and went with all monitor audio gold speakers for base level and atmos in ceiling. They are inceiling and amiable tweeters. Loving the sound
Thanks for the replies. Yeah, as I was typing I thought to myself "hmm, 7 feet, minus 10-12 inches for the speaker, minus another 6 for angle and potential porting.."

I am very intrigued by the idea of high quality bookshelf/monitors around the whole room too. I'm contemplating building an in place "stand/shelf" that runs the whole edge of the room at 24-30 inches off ground allowing for really easy adding. I had been contemplating using Ascend mini-towers all around but as an IT professional seeing a website with "Copyright 2004" makes me leery.
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post #54575 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by KapaaIan View Post
Yeah, as I was typing I thought to myself "hmm, 7 feet, minus 10-12 inches for the speaker, minus another 6 for angle and potential porting.."
I would put up with the slightly reduced height just to have the advantage of being able to aim the height speakers for best (on-axis) frequency response and coverage of the listening area, which is not possible with in-ceiling speakers pointing straight down at an arbitrary spot on the floor where no one is sitting.
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I am very intrigued by the idea of high quality bookshelf/monitors around the whole room too.
With subwoofers handling the low frequencies, I would just get 11 or 13 of the same bookshelf speakers for consistent sound around the whole room.
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post #54576 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 09:52 AM
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You should check out the RSL C34E inceiling speakers. They are an angled design and are very good sounding, shallow depth and can be aimed at the MLP. They are also inexpensive.

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post #54577 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KapaaIan View Post
Yeah, as I was typing I thought to myself "hmm, 7 feet, minus 10-12 inches for the speaker, minus another 6 for angle and potential porting.."
I would put up with the slightly reduced height just to have the advantage of being able to aim the height speakers for best (on-axis) frequency response and coverage of the listening area, which is not possible with in-ceiling speakers pointing straight down at an arbitrary spot on the floor where no one is sitting.
Quote:
I am very intrigued by the idea of high quality bookshelf/monitors around the whole room too.
With subwoofers handling the low frequencies, I would just get 11 or 13 of the same bookshelf speakers for consistent sound around the whole room.
Don’t know what you are talking about when he can save heights and angle the tweeters with proper placement and dispersion. My MA CT280-IDC do this perfectly.

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post #54578 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timvb15 View Post
I hope this isn’t a silly question but when measuring the height for surrounds at 1.2m where do you measure from? The base of the speaker? The middle of the speaker? The middle of the tweeter? In my case Polk RC65I.

Seen as I’ll be using 4 atmos in ceiling speakers in a 5.1.4 set up is 1.2m height for the surrounds still ok or should I mount them a little lower?
The speaker height is typically referenced to the "acoustic center" of the speaker. In most cases you can just use the tweeter as a proxy for that since the high frequencies are the most directional.

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post #54579 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:32 AM
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Speaker question

I am considering an unusual speaker set-up/use. I am moving in a couple of months to a new house and my TV/theater room will be appox. 16 x 14. I currently have 7.1 speaker set up and planning converting to 7.4.1 atmos. My current surrounds are Infinity ES250s. Each ES250 has 2 sets of drivers that can be setup/wired to work as 2 independent speakers/channels firing at 45 degrees. My seating will be about 9 feet from TV leaving 7 feet behind. I am considering using one set of ES250s for both surround and back channels. If I position each speaker about 3 - 3.5 feet behind my seating position (mounted on side wall) and wire for each speaker for surround and back. On set of drivers will be firing angled towards LP (surround) and the other set of drivers will be firing at back wall (surround back). Do you think this will be effective or too much of a compromise? In theory it should work but my main concern is both channels originating from the same position not feeling/having enough separation.
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post #54580 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:44 AM
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This post is so big and I am not having luck in the speakers area but BECAUSE of atmos mixing bipole surrounds are not the way to go according to most audiophiles and Dolby. I am thinking of using two 8ohm surround speakers in parallel ON EACH SIDE for the R and L surrounds, so 4 surround speakers total aimed directly at my two rows of three and dumping the bipole speakers. My amp Denon AVRX6500h will now see 16 ohms on both surround channels. Who is changing out the bipoles and what do you think of parallel wiring the sides?

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post #54581 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post
I am considering an unusual speaker set-up/use. I am moving in a couple of months to a new house and my TV/theater room will be appox. 16 x 14. I currently have 7.1 speaker set up and planning converting to 7.4.1 atmos. My current surrounds are Infinity ES250s. Each ES250 has 2 sets of drivers that can be setup/wired to work as 2 independent speakers/channels firing at 45 degrees. My seating will be about 9 feet from TV leaving 7 feet behind. I am considering using one set of ES250s for both surround and back channels. If I position each speaker about 3 - 3.5 feet behind my seating position (mounted on side wall) and wire for each speaker for surround and back. On set of drivers will be firing angled towards LP (surround) and the other set of drivers will be firing at back wall (surround back). Do you think this will be effective or too much of a compromise? In theory it should work but my main concern is both channels originating from the same position not feeling/having enough separation.
I have the JBL variant of this surround speaker! And never get to talk about it, haha. The manual talks about doing this exact thing. I know that was pre-Atmos\"down with dipoles", but in this capacity, the speaker will be performing as more of a bipole surround.

If your front facing side will be firing at a 90-110° (or so) angle to your LP, you'll get that accurate directional side surround field. Then the rear facing side points away from the LP and bounces sound off the back wall. I think it'll sound good and convincing from my experience and in my opinion.

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post #54582 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 10:57 AM
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Thanks..I think it will work as well and hoping someone that has tried will chime in. I don't recall seeing any posts about this specific usage.
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post #54583 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:00 AM
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Thanks..I think it will work as well and hoping someone that has tried will chime in. I don't recall seeing any posts about this specific usage.
I'm presently using a single JBL P520WS in this way in the rear of my setup...the right and left sets of drivers wired to the corresponding output channels. Works out better than I gave it credit before the attempt.

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post #54584 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:36 AM
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I'm presently using a single JBL P520WS in this way in the rear of my setup...the right and left sets of drivers wired to the corresponding output channels. Works out better than I gave it credit before the attempt.

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Thanks and that makes me feel more optimistic. I may try on speaker stands first for a while before mounting on wall to see how it works.
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post #54585 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post
I am considering an unusual speaker set-up/use. I am moving in a couple of months to a new house and my TV/theater room will be appox. 16 x 14. I currently have 7.1 speaker set up and planning converting to 7.4.1 atmos. My current surrounds are Infinity ES250s. Each ES250 has 2 sets of drivers that can be setup/wired to work as 2 independent speakers/channels firing at 45 degrees. My seating will be about 9 feet from TV leaving 7 feet behind. I am considering using one set of ES250s for both surround and back channels. If I position each speaker about 3 - 3.5 feet behind my seating position (mounted on side wall) and wire for each speaker for surround and back. On set of drivers will be firing angled towards LP (surround) and the other set of drivers will be firing at back wall (surround back). Do you think this will be effective or too much of a compromise? In theory it should work but my main concern is both channels originating from the same position not feeling/having enough separation.
It's not perfect but it should work fine. Try to experiment with placement as you may need to tweak the exact position and height of the speaker to find the sweet spot where you get a nice distinction between surround (side) and rear effects. If the rear wall where they are aiming is flat and reflective you should get a decent sensation of discrete rear effects.

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post #54586 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:47 AM
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Ceiling speaker volume adjustment

Hi all, I posted this in the Monitor audio thread a while back and couldn’t seem to get any feedback.

I have 4 Monitor Audio CT280-IDC in ceiling speakers as part of my 5.1.4 setup.

The speakers were not cheap and are considered well above average to very good as far as in ceilings go.

Anyways, the speakers have a button on the inside of the unit itself just under the grill that says -3, 0 and +3. I’m guessing that this is for setting individual speaker levels for the in ceiling itself. Currently they are all at 0.

Does anyone have any experience with their speakers having this and maybe tweaking it? If I like my atmos above sounds “hot” I guess I would turn them up?

Currently with my NAD 758 once I have run DIRAC, there is no way to change the individual speaker levels so maybe this is when this would be used (ie post room calibration)?

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post #54587 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:50 AM
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Don’t know what you are talking about when he can save heights and angle the tweeters with proper placement and dispersion. My MA CT280-IDC do this perfectly.
Don't know what you mean by "perfectly" when the Top Front speaker is typically placed 45° forward of the listeners but your CT280-IDC can pivot only 18°. So even at maximum pivot, the speaker is still going to end up pointed at a spot on the floor a couple feet forward of the listeners.
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post #54588 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyways, the speakers have a button on the inside of the unit itself just under the grill that says -3, 0 and +3. I’m guessing that this is for setting individual speaker levels for the in ceiling itself. Currently they are all at 0.
I highly doubt it boosts the overall level, that would be done in the processor. Typically these switches are a high frequency and/or low frequency adjustment to let you compensate for funky acoustics with architectural speakers by shaping the response slightly.

Or you could have just googled your speaker where it's clearly stated right in the description that this is a HF adjustment: https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/supp...all/ct280-idc/

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True 3-way design provides rich midrange detail, higher system output, greater power handling, and superior vocal intelligibility and sound localisation. Optimum imaging and set-up are established via the pivoting IDC, high frequency (+3 dB /0 dB / -3 dB) level adjustment, and boundary compensation (on / off) controls.
The boundary compensation switch will be for bass (turning it "on" will reduce the bass to compensate for bass buildup from being closer to a boundary, e.g. if the speaker is installed near a corner).

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post #54589 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I would put up with the slightly reduced height just to have the advantage of being able to aim the height speakers for best (on-axis) frequency response and coverage of the listening area, which is not possible with in-ceiling speakers pointing straight down at an arbitrary spot on the floor where no one is sitting. With subwoofers handling the low frequencies, I would just get 11 or 13 of the same bookshelf speakers for consistent sound around the whole room.
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Don’t know what you are talking about when he can save heights and angle the tweeters with proper placement and dispersion. My MA CT280-IDC do this perfectly.
Don't know what you mean by "perfectly" when the Top Front speaker is typically placed 45° forward of the listeners but your CT280-IDC can pivot only 18°. So even at maximum pivot, the speaker is still going to end up pointed at a spot on the floor a couple feet forward of the listeners.
Yes, but being great at dispersion means it will blend nicely with the back atmos ceilings and provide a great height effect without losing ceiling height-they are truly great in ceiling. Speakers
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post #54591 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyways, the speakers have a button on the inside of the unit itself just under the grill that says -3, 0 and +3. I’m guessing that this is for setting individual speaker levels for the in ceiling itself. Currently they are all at 0.
I highly doubt it boosts the overall level, that would be done in the processor. Typically these switches are a high frequency and/or low frequency adjustment to let you compensate for funky acoustics with architectural speakers by shaping the response slightly.

Or you could have just googled your speaker where it's clearly stated right in the description that this is a HF adjustment: https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/supp...all/ct280-idc/

Quote:
True 3-way design provides rich midrange detail, higher system output, greater power handling, and superior vocal intelligibility and sound localisation. Optimum imaging and set-up are established via the pivoting IDC, high frequency (+3 dB /0 dB / -3 dB) level adjustment, and boundary compensation (on / off) controls.
The boundary compensation switch will be for bass (turning it "on" will reduce the bass to compensate for bass buildup from being closer to a boundary, e.g. if the speaker is installed near a corner).
So, if I have my back two (rear) in ceiling speakers only about 2 inches from the back wall I should turn the boundary compensation switch “on”?

And still not sure what the HF switch is supposed to do and if I should just leave that at 0-any suggestions?

Here is a picture of my in ceiling speaker placement
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Yes, but being great at dispersion means it will blend nicely with the back atmos ceilings and provide a great height effect without losing ceiling height-they are truly great in ceiling. Speakers
What do you mean by "great at dispersion"? Is their dispersion wide enough to provide coverage to all listeners even when pointed away from the listening area? Is their dispersion consistent enough so that off-axis response sounds similar to on-axis response?
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post #54593 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Yes, but being great at dispersion means it will blend nicely with the back atmos ceilings and provide a great height effect without losing ceiling height-they are truly great in ceiling. Speakers
What do you mean by "great at dispersion"? Is their dispersion wide enough to provide coverage to all listeners even when pointed away from the listening area? Is their dispersion consistent enough so that off-axis response sounds similar to on-axis response?
Yes. Good thing about the 3 way drivers. Worth the money.

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post #54594 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
So, if I have my back two (rear) in ceiling speakers only about 2 inches from the back wall I should turn the boundary compensation switch “on”?
Maybe. If you think the bass is bloated from those speakers that's what it's for.

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And still not sure what the HF switch is supposed to do and if I should just leave that at 0-any suggestions?
This either emphases (+3) or de-emphasizes (-3) the high frequencies. If you think the speaker is too bright then switch to -3, if you think it's too dull than try +3.
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post #54595 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
So, if I have my back two (rear) in ceiling speakers only about 2 inches from the back wall I should turn the boundary compensation switch “on”?
Maybe. If you think the bass is bloated from those speakers that's what it's for.

Quote:
And still not sure what the HF switch is supposed to do and if I should just leave that at 0-any suggestions?
This either emphases (+3) or de-emphasizes (-3) the high frequencies. If you think the speaker is too bright then switch to -3, if you think it's too dull than try +3.
Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

The thing is, being atmos ceiling speakers that are basically ambient sounds and the crossover is 80HZ, I can’t see how any ambient speakers with a crossover that brings low freq to subs could be bass heavy or loud or played enough to be bright? Maybe I’m missing something though...

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post #54596 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Yes. Good thing about the 3 way drivers. Worth the money.
I get wanting to be happy with your purchase, but are there any measurements (from the manufacturer or otherwise) to back up your claims about dispersion?
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post #54597 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 02:58 PM
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Angling surrounds and centre speakers slightly

Speaking of speakers-if my side surrounds are mounted a bit higher then I would like even though I do get separation from surround and ceiling, is it ok to slightly angle the surrounds down a bit by putting a rubber piece that came with the center speaker at the back of the surrounds. Won’t make a huge difference but figure any little bit helps. Plus I’ll do the same to the front part of my center since it’s under tv and slightly lower then tower tweeters and head so it will be angles up. Here are the pics. Hopefully the reflections won’t be screwed up and DIRAC can take care of the angles and reflections being not straight.
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post #54598 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Speaking of speakers-if my side surrounds are mounted a bit higher then I would like even though I do get separation from surround and ceiling, is it ok to slightly angle the surrounds down a bit by putting a rubber piece that came with the center speaker at the back of the surrounds. Won’t make a huge difference but figure any little bit helps. Plus I’ll do the same to the front part of my center since it’s under tv and slightly lower then tower tweeters and head so it will be angles up. Here are the pics. Hopefully the reflections won’t be screwed up and DIRAC can take care of the angles and reflections being not straight.
Just go ahead and do whatever you have in mind and then run another calibration and see for yourself if there is any difference. This is the principal advantage of having your own home theaters. You can do whatever you want.
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post #54599 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 06:15 PM
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This post is so big and I am not having luck in the speakers area but BECAUSE of atmos mixing bipole surrounds are not the way to go according to most audiophiles and Dolby. I am thinking of using two 8ohm surround speakers in parallel ON EACH SIDE for the R and L surrounds, so 4 surround speakers total aimed directly at my two rows of three and dumping the bipole speakers. My amp Denon AVRX6500h will now see 16 ohms on both surround channels. Who is changing out the bipoles and what do you think of parallel wiring the sides?


There is nothing wrong with using bipole speakers as surrounds in Atmos. Dolby and others specifically recommend against using DIPOLE speakers as they are too diffuse and can blur the sound preventing the ability to identify the objects in the 3D space. Perhaps @batpig can repost the section of the Dolby instructions concerning dipoles as it was way back in this thread.


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post #54600 of 54988 Old 06-04-2019, 06:45 PM
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There is nothing wrong with using bipole speakers as surrounds in Atmos. Dolby and others specifically recommend against using DIPOLE speakers as they are too diffuse and can blur the sound preventing the ability to identify the objects in the 3D space. Perhaps @batpig can repost the section of the Dolby instructions concerning dipoles as it was way back in this thread.


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Not that it's wrong but just not optimal like is used to be with 5.1 mixes. Unless the speakers are on top of the listener people are reporting much better experiences over the last year or so with the monos.

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