The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1821 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #54601 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by usc1995 View Post
There is nothing wrong with using bipole speakers as surrounds in Atmos. Dolby and others specifically recommend against using DIPOLE speakers as they are too diffuse and can blur the sound preventing the ability to identify the objects in the 3D space. Perhaps @batpig can repost the section of the Dolby instructions concerning dipoles as it was way back in this thread.
Here it is!
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post #54602 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Speaking of speakers-if my side surrounds are mounted a bit higher then I would like even though I do get separation from surround and ceiling, is it ok to slightly angle the surrounds down a bit by putting a rubber piece that came with the center speaker at the back of the surrounds. Won’t make a huge difference but figure any little bit helps. Plus I’ll do the same to the front part of my center since it’s under tv and slightly lower then tower tweeters and head so it will be angles up. Here are the pics. Hopefully the reflections won’t be screwed up and DIRAC can take care of the angles and reflections being not straight.
Just go ahead and do whatever you have in mind and then run another calibration and see for yourself if there is any difference. This is the principal advantage of having your own home theaters. You can do whatever you want. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I have definetly heard of people angling the center channel up slightly if under a tv but I’m just wondering if anybody else has ever slightly angled a surround speaker downward?

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post #54603 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I have definetly heard of people angling the center channel up slightly if under a tv but I’m just wondering if anybody else has ever slightly angled a surround speaker downward?
Downward to the MLP level, not the floor, no?
We do it all the time since you need surrounds to be a little higher than ear level so the heads/persons next to the MLP do not obscure the surrounds. See the attached drawing.
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post #54604 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 04:50 AM
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Here it is!
Go to 17:50 and again at 21. Not just his opinion I have been seeing the same things from many others. Ironically I found all this while brand new bi's were shipping out to me. I returned them un opened ordered some monos to replace my older bi's and will see how it goes. I don't think dolby mixes with bi's either. I was in the process of a speaker upgrade so my bi's are entry level and 10 years old and I want to match my new LCR so sent them back am I am going for for 4 monos to run in 16 ohm off the same R and L channel one at each row.

I think the room matters especially if the surrounds are super close but overall I think the bi's will be fading and more wall mounted mono's will be in atmos system futures. Running a 7.2.4 I think it will make sense for me with the small mono rears I have but will have to see. With atmos being so direct and precise I think the spread sound of a bipole would be ok but not really the intended by atmos mixers.


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post #54605 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 05:07 AM
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Hey guys so I’m building my first true surround sound home theatre set up this weekend and I’m pretty excited! After years of home theatre in a box or sound bars I’m going up to the big leagues!

It’s a 5.1.4 Setup

Denon AVR X4500H 9.2 channel

Martin Logan 12 inch Dynamo 1000w Sub

Klipsch RP5000F towers for fronts

Klipsch RP600M Bookshelves for rears

Klipsch RP 500SA upfiring speakers for my 4 Height channels

I’m using the center channel feature from my Sony A9F OLED TV for now to see how it performs.

Eventually I’ll get a true center ch speaker if it don’t cut it
Also I’m renting an apt so I didn’t go in ceiling! Also it’s a vaulted ceiling with big wooden beams and drop panels. I was able to get the Atmos effect with my soundbar so I should be fine with the improved more powerful speakers.

I was going to go budget and ended up spending a little more but this is pretty much going to be my setup in the long haul on the audio side.

If anyone has some of these components and some advice it would be greatly appreciated!

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post #54606 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Sleeve View Post
I don't think dolby mixes with bi's either.
Dolby is NOT against bipoles at ear level. Note that it says nothing about bipoles at ceiling level - where you need the greatest dispersion you can get from a speaker! Look for BMR speakers - ideal for ceiling level.
You can get away with a low-dispersion ceiling speaker if you have enough distance between the ear level and ceiling so the narrow dispersion can envelop all the listeners.
With not so much height at you disposal and with usual low-dispersion speakers at the ceiling level you are forced to aim the speakers toward the listeners instead toward the floor.


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I think the room matters especially if the surrounds are super close but overall I think the bi's will be fading and more wall mounted mono's will be in atmos system futures. Running a 7.2.4 I think it will make sense for me with the small mono rears I have but will have to see. With atmos being so direct and precise I think the spread sound of a bipole would be ok but not really the intended by atmos mixers.
Bipoles are fine for Atmos. Really.
The nearer the surround speaker is to the listener, the greater the need for dispersion - hence the bipoles come handy.
The same goes for the ceiling layer - a low height ceiling calls for very good dispersion monopoles (not cheap) or bipoles (cheaper).

But of course, monopoles are far more popular and common.

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post #54607 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbino421 View Post
Also I’m renting an apt so I didn’t go in ceiling! Also it’s a vaulted ceiling with big wooden beams and drop panels. I was able to get the Atmos effect with my soundbar so I should be fine with the improved more powerful speakers.
Vaulted ceiling and Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers (DAES) do not match very well - it will be tricky!!!!

I don't know what soundbar did you have, but you can go ahead with your setup only if the previous soundbar was a DAES 3/5.1.2 or 5.1.4 model that I hope it worked in your room very well, because if it was the "Atmos/DTS virtualization" model you will be pretty disappointed - DAES will not work very well with the vaulted ceiling.

A vaulted ceiling is better matched with classic speakers at the ceiling level, not DAES, but you can try, of course, it's your time and your money.

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post #54608 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbino421 View Post
Also I’m renting an apt so I didn’t go in ceiling! Also it’s a vaulted ceiling with big wooden beams and drop panels. I was able to get the Atmos effect with my soundbar so I should be fine with the improved more powerful speakers.
Vaulted ceiling and Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers (DAES) do not match very well - it will be tricky!!!!

I don't know what soundbar did you have, but you can go ahead with your setup only if the previous soundbar was a DAES 3/5.1.2 or 5.1.4 model that I hope it worked in your room very well, because if it was the "Atmos/DTS virtualization" model you will be pretty disappointed - DAES will not work very well with the vaulted ceiling.

A vaulted ceiling is better matched with classic speakers at the ceiling level, not DAES, but you can try, of course, it's your time and your money.
Yeah the trick with my ceiling is position of the modules, there are some flat spots up there in the center. I had a Samsung K950 Atmos bar that was 5.1.4 with the separate rears/heights. It worked pretty well for what it was! I was able to hear heights like I was supposed to up top. I have to to believe these would be an improvement? If not I have to live with it for now as I have no choice for the time being but at least I won’t have to buy extra surrounds later for expansion as I can use them also.

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post #54609 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 04:15 PM
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Can someone give me some examples of films with Atmos with a 9.2.6 encoded
I know the Disney disc are 7.2.4 locked
How many film make use of beyond 7.2.4?
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post #54610 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by howard68 View Post
Can someone give me some examples of films with Atmos with a 9.2.6 encoded
I know the Disney disc are 7.2.4 locked
How many film make use of beyond 7.2.4?
You're not going to find "9.2.6 encoded" tracks. You're just going to have the "real" Atmos tracks with healthy use of objects that will scale to any speaker layout.

Some examples of Atmos tracks which scale effectively to >11ch speaker layouts (there are more, these are just ones I've experienced and came to mind):

- Gravity (Diamond Luxe edition only)
- Blade Runner 2049
- Blade Runner (4K remaster)
- Mad Max Fury Road
- Venom (4K only)
- Spider-Man Homecoming (4K only)
- Deadpool
- Logan (4K only)
- The Matrix (4K remaster)
- Mission Impossible: Fallout
- Lucy (4K only)
- Baby Driver (4K only)
- Power Rangers
- The Great Wall
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post #54611 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by howard68 View Post
Can someone give me some examples of films with Atmos with a 9.2.6 encoded
I know the Disney disc are 7.2.4 locked
How many film make use of beyond 7.2.4?
You're not going to find "9.2.6 encoded" tracks. You're just going to have the "real" Atmos tracks with healthy use of objects that will scale to any speaker layout.

Some examples of Atmos tracks which scale effectively to >11ch speaker layouts (there are more, these are just ones I've experienced and came to mind):

- Gravity (Diamond Luxe edition only)
- Blade Runner 2049
- Blade Runner (4K remaster)
- Mad Max Fury Road
- Venom (4K only)
- Spider-Man Homecoming (4K only)
- Deadpool
- Logan (4K only)
- The Matrix (4K remaster)
- Mission Impossible: Fallout
- Lucy (4K only)
- Baby Driver (4K only)
- Power Rangers
- The Great Wall
Fury (4k)
Star Trek: Into Darkness (4k)
Superman: The Movie (4k)
Unforgiven (Blu-ray)
War for the Planet of the Apes (4k)

To name a few more.

Trinnov owners with fairly large Atmos systems should help contribute to a thread that lists Atmos movies that are >7.1.4 if there isn't one already.

That would help out immensely.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

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post #54612 of 54936 Old 06-05-2019, 09:45 PM
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Disney disc are 7.2.4 locked
Sorry to jump in but what do you mean by that and how is this known? It’s the first I’ve heard about it so I am curious to hear more.

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post #54613 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 12:43 AM
 
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You're not going to find "9.2.6 encoded" tracks. You're just going to have the "real" Atmos tracks with healthy use of objects that will scale to any speaker layout.
Do we know if this dumbed down version, "7.2.4 only functional", is a Disney home movie thing or a Disney movie thing in general? That is, do they only limit us in the home release versions of the movie yet give support for more speakers in the commercial cinematic release we experience at commercial theaters?
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post #54614 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 01:50 AM
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Do we know if this dumbed down version, "7.2.4 only functional", is a Disney home movie thing or a Disney movie thing in general? That is, do they only limit us in the home release versions of the movie yet give support for more speakers in the commercial cinematic release we experience at commercial theaters?
Apparently, yes, in cinema the Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm movies do not seem to lack anything (dynamic range, bass, etc.), only HT releases are crippled.

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post #54615 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 02:17 AM
 
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Apparently, yes, in cinema the Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm movies do not seem to lack anything (dynamic range, bass, etc.), only HT releases are crippled.
A fixed reduction in the number of Atmos speakers is my specific question of interest, not bass, dynamic range, nor other aspects of sound quality.
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post #54616 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 04:30 AM
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A fixed reduction in the number of Atmos speakers is my specific question of interest, not bass, dynamic range, nor other aspects of sound quality.
Atmos is not speaker bound, but object bound.
Cinema Atmos has support for many more objects than Home Atmos.
I have not seen any Home Atmos (TrueHD encoded, not DD+) soundtrack that has more than 15 objects and 1 LFE channel (no more than a total of 16 objects, even via TrueHD) - example:

Captain Marvel 2019 4K Bluray
Code:
Audio #1
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : MLP FBA 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID                                 : A_TRUEHD
Duration                                 : 2 h 3 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 4 613 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 7 317 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 3.99 GiB (15%)
Title                                    : TrueHD Atmos (Bluray)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Number of dynamic objects                : 13
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

I also never seen a DD+Atmos soundtrack with more than 16 objects - example:

The Highwaymen 2019 Netflix
Code:
Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : E-AC-3 JOC
Format/Info                              : Enhanced AC-3 with Joint Object Coding
Commercial name                          : Dolby Digital Plus with Dolby Atmos
Codec ID                                 : A_EAC3
Duration                                 : 2 h 12 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 448 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 424 MiB (8%)
Title                                    : English
Language                                 : English
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Complexity index                         : 16
Number of dynamic objects                : 15
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE
Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm sound mixers prefer to snap objects near the physical channels and to keep them there about 90% of the time. Hence the "fixed" layout and lack of activity on other (supplementary) speakers that are available to the renderer.

It seems that the "fixing" occurs when the movie gets prepared for digital/disc distribution and get's converted to a "streaming ready" status, where the objects that are present in the Cinema Atmos are remixed for Home Atmos, optimized for streaming/broadcasting via Dolby Digital Plus Atmos or Dolby Digital Plus JOC (Joint Object Coding).

Probably being lazy, the production house is using the same mix for the UHD Bluray TrueHD+Atmos soundtracks, hence the reduced dynamic range and bass (yes, I know that it does not interest you, but is a direct consequence of the "fixing" process).

Based on this "evidence", we can say that the Home Atmos mixes done by Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm contain the same objects as the Cinema version but clumped (joint) into clusters that are located (snapped) to specific speakers locations (just TM, or TF+TR, etc. if we talk about the ceiling layer).

The production house should not use the same mix for both streamings via DD+ and disc via TrueHD, just because DD+ is more limited by bandwidth than TrueHD, so the objects carried by TrueHD should not be clumped and fixed for a predetermined speaker layout, even if both codecs are limited by the same 16 objects/channels - as seen in the wild. Maybe TrueHD supports more than 16 objects/channels count, but right now no one is using more...
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post #54617 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyways, the speakers have a button on the inside of the unit itself just under the grill that says -3, 0 and +3. I’m guessing that this is for setting individual speaker levels for the in ceiling itself. Currently they are all at 0.
I highly doubt it boosts the overall level, that would be done in the processor. Typically these switches are a high frequency and/or low frequency adjustment to let you compensate for funky acoustics with architectural speakers by shaping the response slightly.

Or you could have just googled your speaker where it's clearly stated right in the description that this is a HF adjustment: https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/supp...all/ct280-idc/

Quote:
True 3-way design provides rich midrange detail, higher system output, greater power handling, and superior vocal intelligibility and sound localisation. Optimum imaging and set-up are established via the pivoting IDC, high frequency (+3 dB /0 dB / -3 dB) level adjustment, and boundary compensation (on / off) controls.
The boundary compensation switch will be for bass (turning it "on" will reduce the bass to compensate for bass buildup from being closer to a boundary, e.g. if the speaker is installed near a corner).
So, if I have my back two (rear) in ceiling speakers only about 2 inches from the back wall I should turn the boundary compensation switch “on”?

And still not sure what the HF switch is supposed to do and if I should just leave that at 0-any suggestions?

Here is a picture of my in ceiling speaker placement
Does anyone else have experience with this? I wish I could isolate those speakers to find out but maybe I just have to run text tunes through the NAD 758 really loud to find out about the rear atmos boundary setting?

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post #54618 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I have definetly heard of people angling the center channel up slightly if under a tv but I’m just wondering if anybody else has ever slightly angled a surround speaker downward?
Downward to the MLP level, not the floor, no?
We do it all the time since you need surrounds to be a little higher than ear level so the heads/persons next to the MLP do not obscure the surrounds. See the attached drawing.
The surrounds wouldn’t be pointing at the ground-just angled downwards slightly (maybe 5 or so degrees) just because the shelf they are on is slightly higher mounted then ideal-just trying to make it optimal...

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post #54619 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Atmos is not speaker bound, but object bound.

Cinema Atmos has support for many more objects than Home Atmos.

I have not seen any Home Atmos (TrueHD encoded, not DD+) soundtrack that has more than 15 objects and 1 LFE channel (no more than a total of 16 objects, even via TrueHD) - example:





I also never seen a DD+Atmos soundtrack with more than 16 objects - example:



Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm sound mixers prefer to snap objects near the physical channels and to keep them there about 90% of the time. Hence the "fixed" layout and lack of activity on other (supplementary) speakers that are available to the renderer.



It seems that the "fixing" occurs when the movie gets prepared for digital/disc distribution and get's converted to a "streaming ready" status, where the objects that are present in the Cinema Atmos are remixed for Home Atmos, optimized for streaming/broadcasting via Dolby Digital Plus Atmos or Dolby Digital Plus JOC (Joint Object Coding).



Probably being lazy, the production house is using the same mix for the UHD Bluray TrueHD+Atmos soundtracks, hence the reduced dynamic range and bass (yes, I know that it does not interest you, but is a direct consequence of the "fixing" process).



Based on this "evidence", we can say that the Home Atmos mixes done by Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm contain the same objects as the Cinema version but clumped (joint) into clusters that are located (snapped) to specific speakers locations (just TM, or TF+TR, etc. if we talk about the ceiling layer).



The production house should not use the same mix for both streamings via DD+ and disc via TrueHD, just because DD+ is more limited by bandwidth than TrueHD, so the objects carried by TrueHD should not be clumped and fixed for a predetermined speaker layout, even if both codecs are limited by the same 16 objects/channels - as seen in the wild. Maybe TrueHD supports more than 16 objects/channels count, but right now no one is using more...

Technically Atmos is both channel and object “bound.”

You’re confusing the mix with the encoding.

You use one mix to create deliverables. The same DAMF or ADM is used to make ec3 and TrueHD streams. Nobody makes separate Atmos masters based on downstream delivery.

Home and cinema atmos use the same number of objects when mixing (up to 118.).

You can only deliver a maximum number of 16 spatially coded object using DD+ and TrueHD. You will never see more on those codecs. Initially there was some confusion on having more clusters available for delivery when the format launched, but the current codecs cannot support more than 16....

When you print a mix as 7.1.4 you aren’t “snapping” objects to speakers. If an object hovers between the over heads and the side surrounds it will still image there as some of the sound will be put into the overhead speakers and some in the the side surround channels.

The rendered is still doing the same thing it does when you have more speakers.

The reason for redeeming a mix to 7.1.4 has zero to do with preparing for downstream delivery. I know why they chose to do that on certain titles.

While I am not at liberty to discuss the reason behind the decision, sufficed to say it is what they decided to do on some tittles and actually takes a bit of effort to accomplish... last time I discussed it with someone in the know, I am not sure if that work flow will continue moving forward.

But its a different thing altogether than “snap to speaker” and it confuses the issue when using snap to describe outputting a mix as 9.1.6 or 7.1.4.

I also think you should pick a different descriptor than”joint” when trying to discuss spatial coding and channel rendering (just as using “snapped” is incorrect )

It shouldn’t be confused with JOC.
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Sorry to jump in but what do you mean by that and how is this known? It’s the first I’ve heard about it so I am curious to hear more.
Folks with greater than 7.1.4 set-ups have confirmed that only 11.1 speakers light up with those titles. Another example: if you played the Atmos track for Saving Private Ryan on a full 34-speaker home Atmos layout, only 9 of those speakers would produce sound. The other 25 speakers would be silent. It is still an Atmos track, but it has been pre-rendered to 7.1.2 channels. You can confirm this yourself at home if you have 9.1.6 capability (your Wides, Top Fronts & Top Rears would be silent). Same with most (if not all) of the stuff coming from Disney.
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Technically Atmos is both channel and object “bound.”

You’re confusing the mix with the encoding.

You use one mix to create deliverables. The same DAMF or ADM is used to make ec3 and TrueHD streams. Nobody makes separate Atmos masters based on downstream delivery.

Home and cinema atmos use the same number of objects when mixing (up to 118.).

You can only deliver a maximum number of 16 spatially coded object using DD+ and TrueHD. You will never see more on those codecs. Initially there was some confusion on having more clusters available for delivery when the format launched, but the current codecs cannot support more than 16....

When you print a mix as 7.1.4 you aren’t “snapping” objects to speakers. If an object hovers between the over heads and the side surrounds it will still image there as some of the sound will be put into the overhead speakers and some in the the side surround channels.

The rendered is still doing the same thing it does when you have more speakers.

The reason for redeeming a mix to 7.1.4 has zero to do with preparing for downstream delivery. I know why they chose to do that on certain titles.

While I am not at liberty to discuss the reason behind the decision, sufficed to say it is what they decided to do on some tittles and actually takes a bit of effort to accomplish... last time I discussed it with someone in the know, I am not sure if that work flow will continue moving forward.

But its a different thing altogether than “snap to speaker” and it confuses the issue when using snap to describe outputting a mix as 9.1.6 or 7.1.4.

I also think you should pick a different descriptor than”joint” when trying to discuss spatial coding and channel rendering (just as using “snapped” is incorrect )

It shouldn’t be confused with JOC.

Is what he was saying true in that......say for example. You have the option to stream 4k Captain Marvel from say ATV vs. getting the 4k Blu Ray. Is there any substantial difference between the two? I know on all the 4k discs I rent and own, the Disney versions suck for lack of a better term. Have to turn the volume way up compared to other discs and it still sounds lacking. If Disney is being cost efficient and just mixing/mastering one version to be applied to disc and streaming the same I'd like to know. If that is true I won't go out of my way to obtain their discs any longer. With the billions they make you'd think they would want to drop the hammer on their 4k discs and make them all reference quality. They certainly are not. At least not imho.

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Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm sound mixers prefer to snap objects near the physical channels and to keep them there about 90% of the time. Hence the "fixed" layout and lack of activity on other (supplementary) speakers that are available to the renderer.
And we have evidence the theatrical releases experienced in commercial cinemas don't similarly snap objects, as you describe above, or we are just guessing they don't?
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The reason for redeeming a mix to 7.1.4 has zero to do with preparing for downstream delivery. I know why they chose to do that on certain titles.

While I am not at liberty to discuss the reason behind the decision, sufficed to say it is what they decided to do on some tittles and actually takes a bit of effort to accomplish
Are you at liberty to say if it is different for the home release version(s) from the commercial cinematic release? Thanks.
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
You’re confusing the mix with the encoding.
OK. For us, content consumers, the result that comes from our speakers is more important than the exact flow or stages.

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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
You use one mix to create deliverables. The same DAMF or ADM is used to make ec3 and TrueHD streams. Nobody makes separate Atmos masters based on downstream delivery.
OK. What about Cinema vs Home - the exact same mix is used to produce all the soundtracks (deliverables), including the Cinema?


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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
The reason for redeeming a mix to 7.1.4 has zero to do with preparing for downstream delivery. I know why they chose to do that on certain titles.

While I am not at liberty to discuss the reason behind the decision, sufficed to say it is what they decided to do on some tittles and actually takes a bit of effort to accomplish...
OK. So you know why.
But you can tell us how they do it?

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last time I discussed it with someone in the know, I am not sure if that work flow will continue moving forward.
Let's hope that in the future there will be some improvement... but the latest Marvel title (Captain Marvel 2019) still did not sound "unleashed", about the same as Avengers: Infinity War 2018...
The Last Jedi 2018? The same.

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But its a different thing altogether than “snap to speaker” and it confuses the issue when using snap to describe outputting a mix as 9.1.6 or 7.1.4.

I also think you should pick a different descriptor than”joint” when trying to discuss spatial coding and channel rendering (just as using “snapped” is incorrect )

It shouldn’t be confused with JOC.
Sorry, English is not my native language, so some words or expressions are a bit weird...

But can you explain a bit more about the technique used to fix/preprint Atmos layouts?
How do you keep a native dynamic format to not render an object based on the available layout?

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Are you at liberty to say if it is different for the home release version(s) from the commercial cinematic release? Thanks.


In regards to what? A little confused by the question. Can you clarify please?

If you mean the mix in general than no, it’s no different than any other hone theater or near field mix. They take the stems and objects from the theatrical master and start from there...

There is no equivalent in cinema Atmos to pre rendering a mix to a static “channel” output such as 7.1.4 or 9.1.6... the software rendering solution allows you to change its output to monitor for different environments. But its a monitoring only function and has no bearing on anything else.



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For us, content consumers, the result that comes from our speakers is more important than the exact flow or stages.
Agreed. For us consumers, technical distinctions between mixing and encoding don't really matter. If you've got an Atmos soundtrack that is fixed at 7.1.4, it isn't going to make any difference where in the work flow it happened.
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How do you keep a native dynamic format to not render an object based on the available layout?
By pre-rendering the mix. Suppose you mixed an Atmos or DTS:X track for home video. You used as many objects as you wanted and monitored the mix on a 7.1.4 speaker layout. When it came time to transfer your finished mix to disc, the studio did not use your object-based mix but instead used the 7.1.4 speakers feeds that you were listening to. A pre-rendered version of your mix ended up on disc, even though you used plenty of objects while mixing.

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post #54627 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 12:58 PM
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And we have evidence the theatrical releases experienced in commercial cinemas don't similarly snap objects, as you describe above, or we are just guessing they don't?
It's an educated guess.

Since the only limited delivery system is the one for Home (streaming and disc), and logic tells us that the limited system requires compromises (hence the limited channels/objects count for Home vs Cinema) we can expect that the Cinema soundtrack delivered via DCP is free from fixed layouts or other objects/channels limitations - the Cinema renderer has full liberty for object placement in space based on the actual speakers layout.

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In regards to what? A little confused by the question. Can you clarify please?
This redeeming down to 7.1.4 you speak of here:
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The reason for redeeming a mix to 7.1.4 has zero to do with . . .
You are saying this process of redeeming the mix to only 7.1.4 occurs for some (or all) of the home releases from say Disney? Or people experiencing the same Disney movie originally in a commercial cinema also would be getting the same 7.1.4 limitation, albeit with differing decoding processes, remapping, speaker count, speaker layout, room acoustics, etc.?
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post #54629 of 54936 Old 06-06-2019, 01:12 PM
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By pre-rendering the mix. Suppose you mixed an Atmos or DTS:X track for home video. You used as many objects as you wanted and monitored the mix on a 7.1.4 speaker layout. When it came time to transfer your finished mix to disc, the studio did not use your object-based mix but instead used the 7.1.4 speakers feeds that you were listening to. A pre-rendered version of your mix ended up on disc, even though you used plenty of objects while mixing.

OK.
I can see now.
Such a waste of time and effort when the tools that you used for the mix will give you after you push some buttons the right soundtrack for the right device (in our case disc or streaming). Everything at your fingertips. No outputs, no cables, no capturing the pre-printed channels on another medium, no syncing again with the video, no another encoding session of fake objects that are in fact channels...

I don't know, but this is beyond @##$%&*...

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You are saying this process of redeeming the mix to only 7.1.4 occurs for some (or all) of the home releases from say Disney?
As far as I know they have been the only studio to encode some of their home titles this way. How many I don't know, or if it is all of them. However that is only my personal experience so if another studio has done the same I am unaware of it.

Quote:
Or people experiencing the same Disney movie originally in a commercial cinema also would be getting the same 7.1.4 limitation, albeit with differing decoding processes, remapping, speaker count, speaker layout, room acoustics, etc.?
There is no way to render the mix for the cinema into channels for exhibition.... no.

Cinema Atmos is always playback of the 10 channel bed + objects (up to 118...) There are no other options.
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