The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1828 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #54811 of 55188 Old 06-19-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
What is going on with your "s" key, Dan?

It's random. I have no idea. It used to work through the AVS mobile site on my Android phone (Chrome), but apparently not now. I'm using Firefox at the moment on my PC. Windows 10.



All I was saying was that Dolby needs to be publicly called out in the industry press for their anti-consumer decision on disallowing Neural: X upmixing on their channel based tracks. This is pure and simple corporate pettiness. There is no technical reasoning behind it at all. Maybe if they received pressure on that front and through the dealers, they might back off.

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post #54812 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 04:08 AM
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So I finally got my Atmos speakers (DIYSG Volt 10's) up on the ceiling and got my system all calibrated yesterday with Audyssey. I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle. Aside from the few Dolby demo clips on the Atmos Demo Blu-rays where they intentionally pan stuff around into the overhead speakers and what not it's hard to really hear what's being brought to the table in a given Atmos track. For example, I listened to a number of tracks from the Hans Zimmer - Live in Prague Blu-ray and I could maybe tell the difference between listening to just the "core" 7.1 TrueHD and using Atmos. My Denon x6500 takes about 5 seconds to switch between playing the core only and enabling Atmos (or the reverse) which given the limits of auditory memory and the subtleness of the change I think I can hear a bit more spaciousness to the sound with Atmos enabled using the extra 4 speakers, but I'm willing to concede it could be the placebo effect also because I want to hear it.

I wish Denon gave me the ability to mute the other speakers with a menu option so I could really hear what's coming out of them for any given Atmos content, that the switch between playing just the 7.1 core and Atmos decoding was faster, and that there was the option to use the DSU to take 5.1 or 2.0 sources to only 7.1 or to 7.1+4 so that the effect of the extra 4 height channels with the DSU could be A/B'd.
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post #54813 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 07:20 AM
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The AMOS effect has been very subtle (my experience) in a lot of movies. The effect in Forrest Gump was almost non-existent until the Vietnam scenes, and then I was dodging bullets during the fire fight, and looking for cover when the air strike flew over my head after dropping napalm on me. In Mad Max, the voices in his head danced all over the ceiling.

It reminds me of 3D choices made by directors, either subtle, or in-your-face.

I'm all-in.
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post #54814 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So I finally got my Atmos speakers (DIYSG Volt 10's) up on the ceiling and got my system all calibrated yesterday with Audyssey. I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle. Aside from the few Dolby demo clips on the Atmos Demo Blu-rays where they intentionally pan stuff around into the overhead speakers and what not it's hard to really hear what's being brought to the table in a given Atmos track. For example, I listened to a number of tracks from the Hans Zimmer - Live in Prague Blu-ray and I could maybe tell the difference between listening to just the "core" 7.1 TrueHD and using Atmos. My Denon x6500 takes about 5 seconds to switch between playing the core only and enabling Atmos (or the reverse) which given the limits of auditory memory and the subtleness of the change I think I can hear a bit more spaciousness to the sound with Atmos enabled using the extra 4 speakers, but I'm willing to concede it could be the placebo effect also because I want to hear it.

I wish Denon gave me the ability to mute the other speakers with a menu option so I could really hear what's coming out of them for any given Atmos content, that the switch between playing just the 7.1 core and Atmos decoding was faster, and that there was the option to use the DSU to take 5.1 or 2.0 sources to only 7.1 or to 7.1+4 so that the effect of the extra 4 height channels with the DSU could be A/B'd.

I understand where you're coming from. When Atmos for the HT first hit, many users were underwhelmed (in part due to under-use of the effects by production teams who had not yet fully bought in to the concept of immersive audio) and wanted to crank up the trim on their overhead speakers to make the output more distinctive. But that is counterproductive for most purposes. The subtlety is not a defect but a feature, similar to the blending of output from your surround speakers. Except when an audio object is intended to emanate from or pass through a point directly overhead, you should not be able to isolate the output of a single speaker. Rather, you should feel yourself immersed in a bubble--or, more accurately, a hemisphere--of sound.

There are some very good examples of mixing where the overhead effects come into the foreground at some intervals; one almost universally cited is Gravity (Diamond Edition). You can search this thread for other titles that have been recommended for the quality of the immersive mix (whether you will find the movies themselves worth watching is another question altogether).
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post #54815 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
There are some very good examples of mixing where the overhead effects come into the foreground at some intervals; one almost universally cited is Gravity (Diamond Edition).
That's certainly an expensive version of Gravity to buy now. I'll give some of the other highly regarded Atmos equipped titles a spin.
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post #54816 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
...I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle...

Try upmixing non-Atnos material.

Some of the best sound I get is from live TV shows w/music, i.e. America's Got Talent, So You Think You can Dance, and best of all, Songland, which has live studio musicians.

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post #54817 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
That's certainly an expensive version of Gravity to buy now. I'll give some of the other highly regarded Atmos equipped titles a spin.
Gravity on Apple TV 4K also has the Atmos soundtrack. Albeit lossy of course.
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post #54818 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
That's certainly an expensive version of Gravity to buy now. I'll give some of the other highly regarded Atmos equipped titles a spin.

Definitely pricey. But if you are sufficiently interested, you can always rent the Blu-ray disc from 3D-BlurayRental.com for just $8.99 (two-way shipping included).

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post #54819 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 11:40 AM
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Gravity may be a 4k title being worked on. We'll see. It will most certainly contain the Diamond Luxe's Atmos track. No need to do yet another mix.
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post #54820 of 55188 Old 06-20-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pasender91 View Post
The Top .2 bed gets converted into 2 fixed objects at coordinates Y=0.5 (surround level on main room axis), this is information we can get from the Dolby documentation.
But what the documentation does not say is the Z coordinate for those 2 "Top bed objects".
The x,y,z coordinates for those two objects are:

x = .25 and .75 (quarter points from left to right)
y = .5 (mid-point front to back)
z = 1 (all the way up)
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post #54821 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So I finally got my Atmos speakers (DIYSG Volt 10's) up on the ceiling and got my system all calibrated yesterday with Audyssey. I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle. Aside from the few Dolby demo clips on the Atmos Demo Blu-rays where they intentionally pan stuff around into the overhead speakers and what not it's hard to really hear what's being brought to the table in a given Atmos track. For example, I listened to a number of tracks from the Hans Zimmer - Live in Prague Blu-ray and I could maybe tell the difference between listening to just the "core" 7.1 TrueHD and using Atmos. My Denon x6500 takes about 5 seconds to switch between playing the core only and enabling Atmos (or the reverse) which given the limits of auditory memory and the subtleness of the change I think I can hear a bit more spaciousness to the sound with Atmos enabled using the extra 4 speakers, but I'm willing to concede it could be the placebo effect also because I want to hear it.

I wish Denon gave me the ability to mute the other speakers with a menu option so I could really hear what's coming out of them for any given Atmos content, that the switch between playing just the 7.1 core and Atmos decoding was faster, and that there was the option to use the DSU to take 5.1 or 2.0 sources to only 7.1 or to 7.1+4 so that the effect of the extra 4 height channels with the DSU could be A/B'd.

Get yourself a copy of 4k Blade Runner 2049. Turn it up to 75 or more, and reassess.
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post #54822 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 08:47 AM
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I get ever more confused with all this. Currently running 7.2 with added front height (presence) and rear height (presence) speakers since Atmos came onto the scene. Wanting to put 1x pair of ceiling in and finally just picked up a pair of Kef130ER which are similar Uni-q to all my other Kefs. But do I run extra wire for these as the receiver will cope, or do I just rewire the Ceiling from (say) the Rear back surrounds and disable them, which never seem to do much?

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post #54823 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 10:17 AM
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I get ever more confused with all this. Currently running 7.2 with added front height (presence) and rear height (presence) speakers since Atmos came onto the scene. Wanting to put 1x pair of ceiling in and finally just picked up a pair of Kef130ER which are similar Uni-q to all my other Kefs. But do I run extra wire for these as the receiver will cope, or do I just rewire the Ceiling from (say) the Rear back surrounds and disable them, which never seem to do much?
What you are describing is a 7.1.6 setup -- a 7.1 ear level base layer with front heights + top middle + rear heights. Your Denon AVC-X8500H can run this complete setup so might as well wire them all up.

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post #54824 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
What you are describing is a 7.1.6 setup -- a 7.1 ear level base layer with front heights + top middle + rear heights. Your Denon AVC-X8500H can run this complete setup so might as well wire them all up.

Thats what I was thinking. Hopefully give a bit more "up top"

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post #54825 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 11:01 AM
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Get yourself a copy of 4k Blade Runner 2049. Turn it up to 75 or more, and reassess.
I have it already. I watched it several months ago before I got Atmos setup. I'll have to re-watch it. I did try a bit of the Imagine Dragons - Smoke + Mirrors Live Blu-ray and the Atmos track on it adds a nice bit of an upper layer of ambience in the soundtrack with some occasional shift of musical and vocal effects into the upper speakers.
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post #54826 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 11:08 AM
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Thats what I was thinking. Hopefully give a bit more "up top"
Yes, very much so. The big downside of a front/rear height (presence) setup with Atmos is that the height speakers usually don't have enough elevation to really give an overhead effect. If they are mounted high on the front/rear walls the height speakers are likely only 15-20 degrees elevated, way too little for clear separation for the overhead layer. Putting a pair of Top Middle speakers directly above will give clear overhead effects, but I also would consider raising the height speakers up higher if they are only currently a few feet above the lower level speakers.

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post #54827 of 55188 Old 06-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So I finally got my Atmos speakers (DIYSG Volt 10's) up on the ceiling and got my system all calibrated yesterday with Audyssey. I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle. Aside from the few Dolby demo clips on the Atmos Demo Blu-rays where they intentionally pan stuff around into the overhead speakers and what not it's hard to really hear what's being brought to the table in a given Atmos track. For example, I listened to a number of tracks from the Hans Zimmer - Live in Prague Blu-ray and I could maybe tell the difference between listening to just the "core" 7.1 TrueHD and using Atmos. My Denon x6500 takes about 5 seconds to switch between playing the core only and enabling Atmos (or the reverse) which given the limits of auditory memory and the subtleness of the change I think I can hear a bit more spaciousness to the sound with Atmos enabled using the extra 4 speakers, but I'm willing to concede it could be the placebo effect also because I want to hear it.

I wish Denon gave me the ability to mute the other speakers with a menu option so I could really hear what's coming out of them for any given Atmos content, that the switch between playing just the 7.1 core and Atmos decoding was faster, and that there was the option to use the DSU to take 5.1 or 2.0 sources to only 7.1 or to 7.1+4 so that the effect of the extra 4 height channels with the DSU could be A/B'd.

Get yourself a copy of 4k Blade Runner 2049. Turn it up to 75 or more, and reassess.
Or mad max
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post #54828 of 55188 Old 06-22-2019, 11:02 AM
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Have a look at the following thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...mos-guide.html

sdurani states in that thread that there are only 6 speaker locations on the ceiling and that there is no way to do 8 speakers on the ceiling, at least not while adhering to Dolby's placement guideline. My question is, is this true? I mean "home" Atmos supports 24.1.10 so where do those 10 overhead speakers go if there are only 6 speaker locations on the ceiling?
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post #54829 of 55188 Old 06-22-2019, 11:45 AM
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I mean "home" Atmos supports 24.1.10 so where do those 10 overhead speakers go if there are only 6 speaker locations on the ceiling?

6 tops + 4 heights (ft & rr); I guess Dolby thinks of the heights as going on the walls so they'll be more aimed at the listening area

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post #54830 of 55188 Old 06-22-2019, 11:53 AM
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6 tops + 4 heights (ft & rr); I guess Dolby thinks of the heights as going on the walls so they'll be more aimed at the listening area
But is "commercial" Atmos the same? I mean commercial theaters with Atmos have long rows of ceiling speakers.

Edit: Saw your edit. Are you saying that they put them as heights so they are "easier" to aim at the listening area? So, if you have a long room, you actually could have them all on the ceiling?
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post #54831 of 55188 Old 06-22-2019, 12:36 PM
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But is "commercial" Atmos the same? I mean commercial theaters with Atmos have long rows of ceiling speakers.

Edit: Saw your edit. Are you saying that they put them as heights so they are "easier" to aim at the listening area? So, if you have a long room, you actually could have them all on the ceiling?

You can, but the farther away the speakers get from the MLP, the more you need to angle them toward the MLP area and not have them firing straight down. Look at the ceiling of a good Dolby Cinema. The ceiling speakers are not all firing down at the floor.


I think some of these Dolby diagrams are designed to help you fit the various speakers into a smaller home environment with less than ideal speakers. You would need to seek out aimable on-ceiling and on-wall speakers that would allow you do ceiling, front and rear wide array mounting easily. Normally, those cinema type speakers are on adjustable yolks and most consumer speaker brands do not make them this way.

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post #54832 of 55188 Old 06-22-2019, 02:42 PM
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I guess Dolby thinks of the heights as going on the walls so they'll be more aimed at the listening area
That's the way it is shown in the Atmos install guide. However, the Atmos renderer thinks that all 5 pairs are on the ceiling, equally spaced from front to back.
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post #54833 of 55188 Old 06-23-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
What you are describing is a 7.1.6 setup -- a 7.1 ear level base layer with front heights + top middle + rear heights. Your Denon AVC-X8500H can run this complete setup so might as well wire them all up.
After recently reading about how the Atmos mix in a movie like Saving Private Ryan seems to provide a better experience with a 7.1.4 setup than 7.1.6 (most sound is focused in the TM speakers with .6), would the FH + TM + RH configuration be the recommended setup for 6 overhead speakers?

I still haven't wired up my room, but I have a picture of the speakers staged from a few months back. I've since added a pair of "middle" speakers. For position reference, the new TML is located between the red and green pictures on the wall.

I originally planned on creating multiple profiles with the MultEQ app including TF, TM, TR for Atmos movies and FH, RH (middles ignored) for DTS:X mixes. I recall reading that speakers assigned as top will have more sound coming from above, but the Saving Private Ryan story is disappointing to hear, and the TF, TM, TR might not always be best anyway. I'm curious as to how FH, TM, RH would compare with that movie.
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post #54834 of 55188 Old 06-23-2019, 02:56 PM
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After recently reading about how the Atmos mix in a movie like Saving Private Ryan seems to provide a better experience with a 7.1.4 setup than 7.1.6 (most sound is focused in the TM speakers with .6), would the FH + TM + RH configuration be the recommended setup for 6 overhead speakers?
No, because you still have a middle pair, which is where all the height info will end up (on those particular mixes). Without the middle pair, the height info will be split to the overhead speakers that are forward & rearward of you (whether you designate them Tops or Heights), giving you better overhead envelopment rather than hot spotting at the middle of the ceiling (again, on those particular mixes).

I'm guessing there are relatively few 7.1.2 Atmos mixes on home video. Certainly there are more 7.1.4 mixes. Plus ones that just don't use Wides. Unfortunately, these pre-rendered mixes are on some pretty high profile titles. But I don't know what percentage of home Atmos mixes are limited this way: minority, half, slight majority?

I'm just wondering if they represent enough home Atmos mixes to justify limiting home Atmos set-ups. If you want to do a 7.1.6 set-up, then maybe you shouldn't let a handful of 7.1.2 mixes worry you out of it. Just something to think about.
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post #54835 of 55188 Old 06-23-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
No, because you still have a middle pair, which is where all the height info will end up (on those particular mixes). Without the middle pair, the height info will be split to the overhead speakers that are forward & rearward of you (whether you designate them Tops or Heights), giving you better overhead envelopment rather than hot spotting at the middle of the ceiling (again, on those particular mixes).
Got it, makes sense. I appreciate the response.
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post #54836 of 55188 Old 06-24-2019, 08:44 PM
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Hey guys,
question about Atmos height surround side support on Marantz SR7012. I have setup as 5.1.4 using 9.1 speaker selection. 4 height speakers as Front height and side height.
When using native Atmos track or DSU, the info for active speaker indicate height surround side speaker is inactive and I validate no sound. Switching to native DTS-X, Neural-X and Auro-3D all use height surround side speaker.

Am I doing something wrong or Atmos just dont support height surround side? If so, does it support height surround rear? Simply changing the speaker configuration mapping height side to height rear in AVR resulted in speaker disabled; I believe need to re-run Audessey.
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post #54837 of 55188 Old 06-24-2019, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dexth77 View Post
Hey guys,
question about Atmos height surround side support on Marantz SR7012. I have setup as 5.1.4 using 9.1 speaker selection. 4 height speakers as Front height and side height.
When using native Atmos track or DSU, the info for active speaker indicate height surround side speaker is inactive and I validate no sound. Switching to native DTS-X, Neural-X and Auro-3D all use height surround side speaker.

Am I doing something wrong or Atmos just dont support height surround side? If so, does it support height surround rear? Simply changing the speaker configuration mapping height side to height rear in AVR resulted in speaker disabled; I believe need to re-run Audessey.

You have to define the speaker as rear - Atmos doesn't do side heights



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post #54838 of 55188 Old 06-25-2019, 12:53 AM
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You have to define the speaker as rear - Atmos doesn't do side heights


thx for confirming. Would it work fine from surround perspective? the speaker is physically side height.
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post #54839 of 55188 Old 06-25-2019, 04:24 AM
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Yes - that is exactly how I had mine - physically mounted above the surrounds but defined as rear heights in AVR. I believe you will get a better Atmos effect if they are mounted behind you though - I plan on moving mine as soon as I can get some motivation !!


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post #54840 of 55188 Old 06-25-2019, 09:04 AM
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I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.
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