The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1829 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #54841 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 11:03 AM
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@milanjv

I would definitely go with four overhead speakers.

IMO the front ones should be moved forward to fill in the angular gap between them and the front speakers.

And I'd move the rear ones as far back as possible to improve ft/rr overhead panning.

Also, I'd be careful not to place them two widely; when I first moved to Atmos I had the overheads high on the side walls (12' wide room), and I didn't get satisfying overhead effects.

I moved them inward 2' and that helped a lot.

Nice room!
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post #54842 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.
Put your back pair behind and not above the couch like mine and you will be ok
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post #54843 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
@milanjv

I would definitely go with four overhead speakers.

IMO the front ones should be moved forward to fill in the angular gap between them and the front speakers.

And I'd move the rear ones as far back as possible to improve ft/rr overhead panning.

Also, I'd be careful not to place them two widely; when I first moved to Atmos I had the overheads high on the side walls (12' wide room), and I didn't get satisfying overhead effects.

I moved them inward 2' and that helped a lot.

Nice room!
As long as his atmos heights are in line with the front left and right. He looks to have a wide room, like myself, in which case the atmos ceiling speakers may be as wide as the towers
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post #54844 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.

Congratulations, you have a gorgeous room!

I would respond to your query by remarking that it would be a shame to stint on overhead speakers with only a single pair given the level of attention and investment that you have clearly made to this point. That second set will complete the upper plane and result in better coverage front to back overhead.

Noah has given you some good advice and, regarding speaker placement, I would recommend that you take into consideration the range of elevation angles shown in the diagram below:


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post #54845 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 03:21 PM
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New 2019 Denon receivers are supporting both height virtualizers: DTS Virtual:X and Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization. For folks that cannot place height speakers above them, I wonder how effective these virtualizers are compared to upfiring speakers.
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post #54846 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
New 2019 Denon receivers are supporting both height virtualizers: DTS Virtual:X and Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization. For folks that cannot place height speakers above them, I wonder how effective these virtualizers are compared to upfiring speakers.
I don’t know, but it’s bound to be more immersive than a soundbar trying to emulate Atmos...
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post #54847 of 55029 Old 06-25-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I don’t know, but it’s bound to be more immersive than a soundbar trying to emulate Atmos...
Sure, both virtualizers allow up to 7 speakers to do the height effect. A soundbar can't compete with that, even if it has upfiring drivers.
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post #54848 of 55029 Old 06-26-2019, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.

Can you put something like SVS Prime Elevation speakers on (or in) the wall/cabinet behind the sofa - that would work better than directly above.


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post #54849 of 55029 Old 06-26-2019, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sure, both virtualizers allow up to 7 speakers to do the height effect. A soundbar can't compete with that, even if it has upfiring drivers.
Yeah, soundbars without surround speakers generate a sound field that is very "frontal" and no amount of DSP virtual "height" and virtual "surround" processing, front-side or front-height speakers will put you in a sound "bubble" like a proper 5.1 or 7.1 setup will do. The uneven room furniture, windows, doors, and room size will break or distort the side walls or ceiling expected reflections, reflections that will fail to "envelop" you.
All these tricks are just more proof that practically nothing will replace an actual physical speaker mounted in the required place that is expected to be the originating source of the sound.
Yes, DTS Virtual:X or Dolby Speaker Virtualizer are better than what was available 20 years ago, DSP's are cheap, the software is cheap, but a trick remains a trick.
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post #54850 of 55029 Old 06-26-2019, 04:44 PM
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@kbarnes701 : You sir, have been a literal inspiration to me! I've recently upgraded to an Atmos system, and am reading this massive thread backwards to get caught up.

My curiosity got the best of me, and I clicked on his Cowshed Cinema build link, and read through all 37 pages. Well done, indeed!

And while I have a living room rather than a shed, I have benefited from Mr Barnes' many posts, in that today, I toed in my Atmos speakers towards the MLP, and sat down and watched Blade Runner: The Final Cut 4K restoration in Atmos. OMG.

I hope you don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste your review of it here:

---

Oh boy oh boy oh boy, oh boy.

On Roger's recommendation at the weekend I bought the 4K remastered, with Dolby Atmos sound, version of Blade Runner The Final Cut on UHD disc.

If you haven't seen Blade Runner in remastered 4K with Dolby Atmos, you haven't seen Blade Runner!

From the very first notes of the wonderful Vangelis score, you know you are in for something very special.

The 4K remaster reveals details and textures you have never seen before. I audibly gasped at the early flyovers of 2019 Los Angeles - never before have I seen such crisp detail, adding a new sense of reality to these images. HDR proves its mettle with the inkiest of blacks, fabulous shadow detail and crisp whites. In a highly graded movie like this, WCG doesn't get much opportunity to shine. But it's the sheer retrieval of detail that wowed me the most. A fabulous effort on the part of Warner Bros.

But if the image quality blows you away, just wait till you hear the Atmos re-mix. From the first seconds of the movie, your jaw will drop as various flying craft pass over your head, come in low from left and right, circle the room. Disembodied voices from advertising vehicles swoosh over your head, and move perfectly in line with what you are seeing on screen as they come in from Top Front Right, to all over the entire overhead soundstage, to disappear via Top Rear Left. In the Tyrell Corporation building, announcements hover above you, coming from the ceilings in the space you are watching on screen.

The score has elements continuously mixed overhead and with the ear level speakers to give a fuller presentation than you have ever heard before, and elements of the score have been remixed with sound effects to create a slightly surreal, 'other world' feeling. Perfect.

Out in the streets, the intensity of the sounds of the large crowds of people swirl all around you, with astonishing clarity, enabling you not to just hear a general 'hubbub' of voices, but dozens of individual voices combining to make the whole.

And the rain! For a movie in which the rain never stops, the Atmos remix adds an entire new dimension, literally. Take the scene where Deckard is sitting in his vehicle and revel in the sound of heavy rain forcefully hitting the roof of the vehicle as he checks in with control. You are just in the vehicle with him. And every other time the action moves to a rain-filled scene, you are totally immersed with the sound of the relentless rain beating down from above and from all around.

In one scene, Deckard and Rachel make a visit to Sebasitan's flat and they take the elevator. The camera remains on the ground floor and as Deckard and Rachel talk as the elevator takes them up several floors, you distinctly hear their conversation and the elevator motor sounds rise gradually from floor level, to mid level to the very top of the screen.

I could go on for pages about this Atmos mix. The overhead speakers are engaged almost constantly throughout the entire movie, whether with small ambient noises, elements of the score, light ambient sounds, or whether full-bodied, full-blooded sounds of flying vehicles, rainstorms, thunder, sound effects and more. This is a go-to disc to demonstrate why you installed Atmos in the first place.

If you enjoy this movie - and who doesn't? - and you don't have the 4K restoration, I urge you to go out right now and buy it. You will not be disappointed!

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---

It was all that, and I don't even have a cow shed! Thank you, Mr Barnes!
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post #54851 of 55029 Old 06-26-2019, 06:05 PM
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I just ran 4 speaker lines in my attic for an Atmos run. I currently have 2 Paradigm CI Pro P80-A's and will be purchasing 2 more in the near future.
These are the angled-sound field models.
So this means that I'm going to be starting with a 7.1.2 system, and completing it with a 7.1.4 config.
I will be having only 2 holes cut in the ceiling tomorrow and I'm wondering which position I should start with.
Should I do front Atmos (45 degrees), or rear Atmos (135 degrees) first?
Thanks.
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post #54852 of 55029 Old 06-26-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LiamSevier View Post
I just ran 4 speaker lines in my attic for an Atmos run. I currently have 2 Paradigm CI Pro P80-A's and will be purchasing 2 more in the near future.
These are the angled-sound field models.
So this means that I'm going to be starting with a 7.1.2 system, and completing it with a 7.1.4 config.
I will be having only 2 holes cut in the ceiling tomorrow and I'm wondering which position I should start with.
Should I do front Atmos (45 degrees), or rear Atmos (135 degrees) first?
Thanks.

Front...... you could consider using the rears in a 5.1.4 just for fun.
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post #54853 of 55029 Old 06-27-2019, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Wolfer View Post
@kbarnes701 : You sir, have been a literal inspiration to me! I've recently upgraded to an Atmos system, and am reading this massive thread backwards to get caught up.

My curiosity got the best of me, and I clicked on his Cowshed Cinema build link, and read through all 37 pages. Well done, indeed!

And while I have a living room rather than a shed, I have benefited from Mr Barnes' many posts, in that today, I toed in my Atmos speakers towards the MLP, and sat down and watched Blade Runner: The Final Cut 4K restoration in Atmos. OMG.

I hope you don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste your review of it here:
Wow, Bill, thank you so much. You are making me blush! I am so pleased you are enjoying your Atmos though! I feel duty bound to say that I could never have achieved in my own cinema what I have if it hadn't been for the endless help and advice I have received from many of the AVS members in this thread and in others. I always hesitate to say who these guys are because you can never mention them all and even if you tried you'd inevitably forget some. They know who they are, but a special shout-out to some who have become friends as well as forum members - Sanjay (sdurani), Jerry (AustinJerry), Roger (roger dressler), Stu (sdrucker) especially and many more. Thanks guys - I couldn't have done it without you.

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post #54854 of 55029 Old 06-27-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So I finally got my Atmos speakers (DIYSG Volt 10's) up on the ceiling and got my system all calibrated yesterday with Audyssey. I have to say that so far the Atmos effect is pretty subtle. Aside from the few Dolby demo clips on the Atmos Demo Blu-rays where they intentionally pan stuff around into the overhead speakers and what not it's hard to really hear what's being brought to the table in a given Atmos track. For example, I listened to a number of tracks from the Hans Zimmer - Live in Prague Blu-ray and I could maybe tell the difference between listening to just the "core" 7.1 TrueHD and using Atmos. My Denon x6500 takes about 5 seconds to switch between playing the core only and enabling Atmos (or the reverse) which given the limits of auditory memory and the subtleness of the change I think I can hear a bit more spaciousness to the sound with Atmos enabled using the extra 4 speakers, but I'm willing to concede it could be the placebo effect also because I want to hear it.

I wish Denon gave me the ability to mute the other speakers with a menu option so I could really hear what's coming out of them for any given Atmos content, that the switch between playing just the 7.1 core and Atmos decoding was faster, and that there was the option to use the DSU to take 5.1 or 2.0 sources to only 7.1 or to 7.1+4 so that the effect of the extra 4 height channels with the DSU could be A/B'd.
If you like Blade Runner (original) and if you have UHD capability get the Atmos remixed 4k version of the movie. It is an Atmos tour de force and you will most definitely hear what Atmos can really do, right from the opening scenes of the movie.
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post #54855 of 55029 Old 06-27-2019, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.
Nice digs!

And yes, it will matter, go for it. I have something similar (my setup is in my signature).
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post #54856 of 55029 Old 06-27-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Wow, Bill, thank you so much. You are making me blush! I am so pleased you are enjoying your Atmos though! I feel duty bound to say that I could never have achieved in my own cinema what I have if it hadn't been for the endless help and advice I have received from many of the AVS members in this thread and in others. I always hesitate to say who these guys are because you can never mention them all and even if you tried you'd inevitably forget some. They know who they are, but a special shout-out to some who have become friends as well as forum members - Sanjay (sdurani), Jerry (AustinJerry), Roger (roger dressler), Stu (sdrucker) especially and many more. Thanks guys - I couldn't have done it without you.
I forgot to mention that you have also inspired me to start treating my room. I worked in recording studios for years, so I'm familiar with it, but I've been lazy when it comes to my own space. I've got the makings of two 24 x 48 absorption panels on the way. Cheers!
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post #54857 of 55029 Old 06-29-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
My Yamaha RX-A3070 has Two Speaker Patterns available,
So the 4 presence speakers are configured as Overhead for ATMOS/Dolby Surround (Speaker Pattern 1)
and configured as Height for DTS:X/Neural:X (Speaker Pattern 2)
I didn't realize this was a thing--is it still? I just popped in the blu-ray to Train to Busan which is DTS:X, and my Yamaha RX-A3070 showed that my four overheads were receiving sound. I set them to "Heights" but I'm not sure I heard any difference in the sound coming from my on-ceiling speakers. What am I missing?

Sorry for responding to an old post, but I'm new to Atmos, and I'm reading this massive thread backwards.
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post #54858 of 55029 Old 06-29-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
I have finally decided to setup atmos system and but I am unsure whether to go with 2 or 4 in ceiling speakers.

Room is big enough but I am not convinced that 4 would make a noticable difference given that seating is very close to the back wall.

I am posting few photos of the room in which I have marked with red positions that I will put the first pair of speakers, and with yellow positions for which I am not sure if speakers should be installed.

Would very much appreciate if anyone has experience with how much difference the second pair would make in similar positions.
If your receiver can do 5.1.4 I would do it. If you have to spend a lot to get to .4 then the .2 should be reasonable.

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post #54859 of 55029 Old 06-30-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Wolfer View Post
I didn't realize this was a thing--is it still? I just popped in the blu-ray to Train to Busan which is DTS:X, and my Yamaha RX-A3070 showed that my four overheads were receiving sound. I set them to "Heights" but I'm not sure I heard any difference in the sound coming from my on-ceiling speakers. What am I missing?
If you set them to overhead for DTS:X the sound will be mirrored into the lower speakers to try to pull the apparent location down. The height setting doesn't do that.
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post #54860 of 55029 Old 07-02-2019, 02:18 PM
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Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.
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post #54861 of 55029 Old 07-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.

The age-old wisdom (of this thread) applies: Mo' speakers, mo' better.

In your case, the added speakers would serve to create a height effect missing from your current configuration, which is a significant expansion. It opens the door to enjoyment of immersive audio in the form of Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and/or Auro3D sound tracks. This is potentially a more impactful improvement than front wide or even surround back speakers in a dedicated home theater.

If this is indeed to be the only pair you will deploy, then a good spot to target would be slightly in front of the main listening position, at around 80° elevation.

In short, this is a no-brainer: Just Do It!(™)
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post #54862 of 55029 Old 07-02-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.
WARNING!

Once you hear 7.2.2, you will crave 7.2.4!




(you have been warned)

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post #54863 of 55029 Old 07-02-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.
There may be a way to do four overhead or a combo of height and overhead. Can you provide a pic or two of the room?

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post #54864 of 55029 Old 07-03-2019, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.
What are the room dimensions (WDH)?

Like Dan says, a photo or drawing of the room with seating would be really helpful.

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post #54865 of 55029 Old 07-03-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Would adding two overheads be "worth it" in my dedicated theater vs. none at all? Currently have 7.2 running and would go to 7.2.2. No space for "wides" or "heights" and really no space for another pair of overheads - but the two I would ad would be in a "good" spot on the ceiling in relation to my fronts, surrounds and backs.

Thoughts?

Marantz 8805 with Triad Golds all around - and would do Triad Gold/8 Omni SE's in the ceiling.
My room layout is with the seating against a wall. To redo that would be a major room layout redo that I didnt want to undertake. In addition, my Denon only supports 7 ch so adding 2 ceiling speakers made sense. My existing setup was 5.2. Klipsch speakers and dual HSU 15" subs. A good setup to start. The addition of the 2 in ceiling speakers was really good. I have them aligned with the LR just a bit forward of the seating. They are set as Top Middle. Atmos tracks are great. Very noticeable improvement over just base level speakers.

We plan on moving in the next couple years. Maybe sooner. Next house I will probably do a 7.2.4, but the 5.2.2 works very well.
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post #54866 of 55029 Old 07-03-2019, 11:13 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to get some photos of the room online - may take a few days. Dimensions are roughly 18' D x 14' W x 7.5' H. Main "workaround" is a soffit/beam that is on the ceiling between the first and second row of seats - that "hangs" down about a foot. From my MLP in the front row - and where I would need to put the ceiling speakers behind the beam - it would probably block the sound a bit.

As for the front, as the poster above stated, I could align those two ceiling speakers with my front L/R, and place them slightly in front of the first row.
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post #54867 of 55029 Old 07-03-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambam View Post
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to get some photos of the room online - may take a few days. Dimensions are roughly 18' D x 14' W x 7.5' H. Main "workaround" is a soffit/beam that is on the ceiling between the first and second row of seats - that "hangs" down about a foot. From my MLP in the front row - and where I would need to put the ceiling speakers behind the beam - it would probably block the sound a bit.

As for the front, as the poster above stated, I could align those two ceiling speakers with my front L/R, and place them slightly in front of the first row.
I have a big soffit that runs front to back of the listening area which has a big I Beam, AC duct work and such. It aligns with my L speaker. I struggled what to do with this. I wound up putting one speaker in the soffit and the other in the ceiling. This makes the left speaker 1' lower than the right. The AVR Audyssey XT32 seems to do a good job accounting for this. It sounds just fine. I would not want a speaker on the other side of that where it would be blocked.
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post #54868 of 55029 Old 07-03-2019, 04:48 PM
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7.1.2 with Front Heights Only

This thread is a bit daunting in size and scope. So lieu of any more searches...

So it would be easy to add front heights to my room, but not so much overheads or anything else.

I'm considering upgrading my X1300H to a refurb 4400 to get me some "immersion." I have a built-in entertainment center that stops about 18" short of my 10' ceiling. My system is based around the Boston Acoustics' VR line. I'm very happy with them. When I moved into this home 14 years ago I had the rears and surrounds built in... giving me then a spare pair of their VR-MX surrounds now in a box in the garage. They're a quasi di-pole arrangement as one side has a woofer and tweeter and the other has a passive radiator and tweeter. See photo below with grills removed.

I was thinking of laying them on their backs on top of the entertainment center rather than the usual slight downward fire. Sort of emulating those Atmos speakers with a second set of drivers that fires to the ceiling. The reflected sound would basically be coming from the position of a top front rather than front height. But from everything I've read, with the absence of a top middle pair, I'm not sure how much better my room will sound vs. the ol' 7.1. And then I keep reading about so little content that makes good use of Atmos.

The speakers are essentially free. But will it be worth my $750 for the Denon if I only add those 2 "front height" speakers?



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post #54869 of 55029 Old 07-04-2019, 11:15 AM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by Sketcha View Post

And then I keep reading about so little content that makes good use of Atmos.

The speakers are essentially free. But will it be worth my $750 for the Denon if I only add those 2 "front height" speakers?

Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D are worth it. Don’t forget about the excellent job the upmixers do to Legacy sound tracks (DSU, Neural X, Auromatic). Get Mad Max Blu-Ray, constant use of the top speakers and the musical score shines through them.

Before investing in a new AVR, test the height effect. Disconnect the rear pair and instead configure the AVR as 5.1.2 with front heights/upfiring. Not a fan of firing at ceiling, but you can try this first and then run an Atmos demo disk of the helicopter clip and then mount them up high and run the same demo...even with two front heights the helicopter sounds right above your head, it will change your mind about up firing. I loved it and had to add two more speakers since I wanted panning from front to back to be imaged accurately. Using the Dolby demos like Amaze or the audio only rain demo will make it feel like the whole ceiling is raining. Please report back on your results. Happy 4th of July!


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post #54870 of 55029 Old 07-04-2019, 12:40 PM
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Please report back on your results. Happy 4th of July!

Will do.


Thanks!


And... you too!
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