The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1867 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 28512Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #55981 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 01:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If [theoretically] a movie destroys an home user's subwoofer, in normal use, I see it as the movie's fault.


That’s giving way too much credit to way too many users. Lol
d-rail34 likes this.
Polyrythm1k is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #55982 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 01:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DesertDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1156 Post(s)
Liked: 3056
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
20Hz you say? There's not a single commercial cinema sub in production which extends flat to well below 20Hz*, so your claim infrasonic bass reproduction is the intent of the content creators implies they aren't really concerned with the sound for the commercial cinemas but rather for the [I'm guessing < .1%] of the home market with flat response, with low distortion, at the seated position, well below 20Hz, at reference playback level. I disagree: They are focused on commercial cinema sound.
FYI, they used this system for the theaters they set up for Apocalypse Now The Final Cut. As this movie shows, I don't think you can infer intent from what's shown in theaters either. A theater release might limit the artistic intent due to the limits of producing <20 hz at high levels in a space that big. It's much easier to do in a home theater environment. From reading the write ups on Apocalypse Now, they wanted to do a lot with sound that wasn't possible at the time. They pushed surround sound and wanted more bass to give the tactile feel.

Directors want to do stuff with sound that's currently not possible or not easy to do in a theater setting (or home). I worked with a horror movie director awhile back that wanted to be able to use binaural sound and low frequencies to help alter what the viewer was feeling. I can't give details due to NDA but I did write a proof of concept prototype for it to try to work around the limits of theaters. It made for a really cool demo with the scenes he shot for it. I can say for sure that he'd love to be able to use the frequency range my system is capable of as a creative device. So just because they're hamstrung by the current state of theaters doesn't mean it's their artistic intent.

#IHateNalleh
The struggle is real for Generation Xplain Digital to the Analog and Analog to the Digital.
Klipsch RF-7III, RC-64III
SI HS-24mkIII BOSS-Sac
Sony 85X900F, Denon 8500, nVidia Shield, Apple TV
DesertDog is offline  
post #55983 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 01:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
So have you tried any of the BEQ demo clips to see if you can hear/feel things from our perspective?
This is like the third time you've asked a variation of this. Why do you keep asking this over and over again when I have already given you my answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
Maybe you should try this demo clip with BEQ applied to the second audio track here and see if you notice the difference with some added bass weight applied..
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Why? I've never questioned if applying EQ to a movie can have audible consequences or not. If people like it that's fine, but it is not what I personally seek.

I don't seek what is most pleasing; I seek what is most accurate. Like I say in my signature, if one's goal is high fidelity then one does not dial in the bass to what they dig best, they dial it in to what instrumentation says is the most accurate, faithful, reproduction level that most closely mimics what the content creators experienced themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
Maybe you should try actually 'listening' to the BEQ demo clips provided? instead of putting all that time and effort into creating your own 'flat' graphs.. this is something that's been tried and tested already by many people with zero complaints.. If you can't hear a difference between the two audio tracks on the First Man demo clip, then stick with you what you prefer (ie: no bass)
Once again: No thanks, it is not for me and my pursuit of high fidelity, especially now that I have evidence it creates a 5dB error at 20Hz according to my First Man measurements at least, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets even worse below that. YMMV.
mrtickleuk likes this.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 02:17 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #55984 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 02:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
I've already gone through my phase of "Oh my god, subs can make the room shake!" when I played around with sub harmonic synthesizers in my youth. Then I got older and realized: "Wait, this isn't accuracy and it is not what the artist intended I should hear; this is goofing around." YMMV.
Bill Wolfer likes this.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 02:12 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55985 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 02:24 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
FYI, they used this system for the theaters they set up for Apocalypse Now The Final Cut.
"Frequency Response 13–30 Hz ±4 dB" at 4m, according to them not a third party, and not at the seated position, and with unspecified output level and distortion limits. Probably using more typical 3dB tolerances it is around 16/17 - 30Hz +/- 3dB, so hardly "infrasonic" in my book just because it can go a scooch under 20Hz, if you are right on top of it at least.


"15 to 30 Hz.” - John Meyer, President & CEO, Meyer Sound [unspecified tolerances, distance, room loading, output level, distortion - m. zillch]

Sounds interesting though and maybe a BD I'd buy.

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 02:28 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55986 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 02:46 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,770
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2625 Post(s)
Liked: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
FYI, they used this system for the theaters they set up for Apocalypse Now The Final Cut

Interesting; they must use have to use a lot of them as a pair of ported 18's is insufficient for a lot of HT's (at least for the creazies around here), let alone a cinema.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #55987 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 02:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
paulst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 639
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
This is like the third time you've asked a variation of this. Why do you keep asking this over and over again when I have already given you my answer?

Once again: No, it is not for me and my pursuit of high fidelity, especially now that I have evidence it creates a 5dB error at 20Hz according to my measurements and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets even worse below that. YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
You have not completed even a cursory investigation into the available content.

Because you keep banging on with the same ****, over and over again with no real understanding of what's going on with regard to BEQ, you mention the 5db discrepancy of a 2ch AC3 track in a deleted scene compared to the full Atmos track and yet it's still something you've not listened to in the first place, just because you made a graph, means absolutely nothing.. all you're doing is wasting peoples time reading your dross over and over again.. either sample it first hand or shut up about it.. I'm trying not to go out out of my way and be impolite, it's the last thing I want, but you haven't a clue how a BEQ'd track sounds have you? I've sampled a so called 'high fidelity' 'flat response' for many years (like many of us have) it's easily re-created with both REW and Audyssey, it doesn't even come close to a BEQ'd track. No matter how you try and twist it by saying it's 'high fidelity, adding cinema specs and Youtube videos'. The fact you refuse to try it, says it all.. ignorance is bliss for you, just a shame ;(

All we originally wanted was an answer to why the disks are being filtered in the first place, all you've done is added your own variation of BS at every opportunity to complicate matters over and over again..

Sorry to those reading this but it's about time something was said

LG OLED65B8 ~ HTPC ~ Oppo BDP-93 ~ PS3 ~ PS4 ~ Toshiba HD-XE1 ~ Harmony One
Marantz SR7011 ~ M&K LCR 851 & CS35 ~ 2x4HD ~ PSA S1811 x 2 ~ Behringer NX3000D & BOSS
PC - i7 4790k & GTX970
HTPC - i5 4690k & GTX1060


Last edited by paulst; 10-05-2019 at 04:21 PM.
paulst is offline  
post #55988 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:11 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
all you've done is added your own variation of BS at every opportunity to complicate matters over and over again..
Thank you for your kind and polite words. Be advised I will continue to post in exactly the same manner as I have been.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
m. zillch is offline  
post #55989 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
either sample it first hand or shut up about it.
No.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55990 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,122
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1720 Post(s)
Liked: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've already gone through my phase of "Oh my god, subs can make the room shake!" when I played around with sub harmonic synthesizers in my youth. Then I got older and realized: "Wait, this isn't accuracy and it is not what the artist intended I should hear; this is goofing around." YMMV.

What is defined as “accurate”? Which mix is supposedly the one with the “artists intent”? A good example is the Master and Commander DVD vs blu-ray.

When a movie comes out with neutered bass In the 4K UHD Atmos version vs the previously released 1080p blu-ray which one is accurate ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
farsider3000 is offline  
post #55991 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 4,478
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2156 Post(s)
Liked: 1035
I have a small room (12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high) and am planning a 9.1.6 setup. LCRs will be about 7 ft away, front wides 5 ft away, and side and rear surrounds will be 4 ft away from the main listening position. All speakers will be monopoles. Is a 4 ft listening distance too close for the side and rear surrounds? Will they be too localizable even after calibrating everything?
Kain is offline  
post #55992 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Interesting; they must use have to use a lot of them as a pair of ported 18's is insufficient for a lot of HT's (at least for the creazies around here), let alone a cinema.
27 by my count are used here, but it is an outside venue I guess.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55993 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:30 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
What is defined as “accurate”?
That's not always easy to tell, but that doesn't mean arbitrarily monkeying around with an EQ is achieving accuracy, it is only achieving personal preference, which is not my goal. YMMV. [ I guess I'm the only one here who doesn't seek preference; I seek high fidelity.] If the master is unavailable to compare to the copy this doesn't mean everything is up for grabs, it just means we don't know the answer and restoration can only be a guess. I personally choose not to guess, especially when I have good reason to believe there are many and common false sources for infrasonic content which are actually mistakes/noise. YMMV.

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 03:57 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55994 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,122
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1720 Post(s)
Liked: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I have a small room (12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high) and am planning a 9.1.6 setup. LCRs will be about 7 ft away, front wides 5 ft away, and side and rear surrounds will be 4 ft away from the main listening position. All speakers will be monopoles. Is a 4 ft listening distance too close for the side and rear surrounds? Will they be too localizable even after calibrating everything?

I do t think 4 ft is too close for rears or surrounds but I will say you don’t need 6 ceiling speakers or wides in such a small room... will elaborate in a minute


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
galonzo likes this.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
farsider3000 is offline  
post #55995 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
paulst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 639
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Thank you for your kind and polite words. Be advised I will continue to post in exactly the same manner as I have been.
If that's the best you can do to my reply.. You're welcome I wouldn't expect anything less, it's your subjective personal preference All you had to to do was try it, to have a valid opinion..

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
No.
Like I said, ignorance is bliss

LG OLED65B8 ~ HTPC ~ Oppo BDP-93 ~ PS3 ~ PS4 ~ Toshiba HD-XE1 ~ Harmony One
Marantz SR7011 ~ M&K LCR 851 & CS35 ~ 2x4HD ~ PSA S1811 x 2 ~ Behringer NX3000D & BOSS
PC - i7 4790k & GTX970
HTPC - i5 4690k & GTX1060


Last edited by paulst; 10-05-2019 at 04:22 PM.
paulst is offline  
post #55996 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Sure, and the intent is certainly not to boost any of that stuff. Like I said previously, if everything went perfectly none of that stuff would get boosted, and only beneficial ULF which corresponds with the actions on-screen and that adds to the experience would. Of course that isn't always possible, but I think most of us have found that any negative effects are few and far between, while the beneficial effects are much more frequent. In the rare cases where a proper balance hasn't been struck, I revisit and tweak things. However, as I've gained more and more experience, I can often identify these sort of things on the peak spectrum and adjust my approach right from the start.
Thanks. I have a question. How do you identify and differentiate an infrasonic noise which is accidental from an infrasonic sound which is intentional (but filtered downward by them) during a chaotic scene with multiple sound sources?

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 05:01 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #55997 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 03:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,122
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1720 Post(s)
Liked: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I have a small room (12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high) and am planning a 9.1.6 setup. LCRs will be about 7 ft away, front wides 5 ft away, and side and rear surrounds will be 4 ft away from the main listening position. All speakers will be monopoles. Is a 4 ft listening distance too close for the side and rear surrounds? Will they be too localizable even after calibrating everything?

Okay more opinion based on my 23.5ft long room. I feel that my middle row of Atmos is a bit overkill and in a 12ft long room there would not be enough separation between each row and the front row ceiling speakers would be too close to the LCR.

I just helped a friend with a 12ft long room and we designed with one row of Atmos.

My thoughts are the same for wides in a small room. They will be too close to the L/R and surround speakers. I don’t even know if they are needed in my room.

If you want to put that many speakers I would recommend treating the heck out of your walls with acoustic panels since any reflection will not allow you to distinguish between the six ceiling speakers / wides vs LCR .... wides are also not used very extensively in today’s releases but hopefully it will improve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
galonzo likes this.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
farsider3000 is offline  
post #55998 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 04:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 4,478
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2156 Post(s)
Liked: 1035
Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Okay more opinion based on my 23.5ft long room. I feel that my middle row of Atmos is a bit overkill and in a 12ft long room there would not be enough separation between each row and the front row ceiling speakers would be too close to the LCR.

I just helped a friend with a 12ft long room and we designed with one row of Atmos.

My thoughts are the same for wides in a small room. They will be too close to the L/R and surround speakers. I don’t even know if they are needed in my room.

If you want to put that many speakers I would recommend treating the heck out of your walls with acoustic panels since any reflection will not allow you to distinguish between the six ceiling speakers / wides vs LCR .... wides are also not used very extensively in today’s releases but hopefully it will improve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks. Will think about it more but someone here on AVS did 9.1.6 in a 12 ft x 12 ft room. Have a look here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...2x12-room.html

Whatever I end up doing, I will be heavily treating the room especially since it is concrete all around.

By the way, in your first post, were you trying to say 4 ft is too close to the sides and rears or isn't too close?
Mashie Saldana likes this.
Kain is offline  
post #55999 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,122
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1720 Post(s)
Liked: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks. Will think about it more but someone here on AVS did 9.1.6 in a 12 ft x 12 ft room. Have a look here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...2x12-room.html



Whatever I end up doing, I will be heavily treating the room especially since it is concrete all around.



By the way, in your first post, were you trying to say 4 ft is too close to the sides and rears or isn't too close?

I was trying to say that I believe 4ft is not too close if MLP is that distance from sides and rears.

Someone may have put that many speakers in such a small space but if they give an honest assessment I can’t believe there is any benefit to six ceiling speakers so close together and so close to the LCR. I really don’t see how wides spaced two feet from LCR will provide any benefit at all.

At a total max I would go with 4 Atmos ceiling speakers and no wides... but two spaced further from LCR and rears is bear in my opinion and from my own experience with my room.

The big concern is placing the ceiling speakers too close to LCR. Having wides is not going to degrade the sound field but having front row ceiling speakers too close to LCR or rear ceiling too close to rears will very likely make it seem like the sound is coming from LCR/rears vs Atmos ceiling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
galonzo likes this.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
farsider3000 is offline  
post #56000 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,949
Mentioned: 685 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3968 Post(s)
Liked: 16367
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Thanks. I have a question. How do you identify and differentiate an infrasonic noise which is accidental from an infrasonic sound which is intentional (but filtered away by them) during a chaotic scene with multiple sound sources?
Well, for one thing, all those things you listed that could happen on a set, if they do happen I've never experienced them make it to the final mix at any perceivable level, even after BEQ. Honestly, not once. I think your list might be a little extreme

I think an important thing to consider is that it is only the strongest ULF that exists in the mix that what will end up strong enough to be perceptible. In most mixes, the vast majority of that strongest ULF is what we would consider beneficial content. If there is what we would consider detrimental content, it is almost always much lower in level and doesn't end up perceivable. Now, of course, on the rare mix where there is none of that beneficial content, the strongest ULF in the mix will end up being car door slams or music infrasonics. Those are the mixes that I try to identify ahead of time and avoid boosting that detrimental content. It's really not anywhere near as dire as you're imagining, though, with Moe in the mixing room, Larry on the boom, and Curly as the foley artist.
galonzo and d-rail34 like this.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is online now  
post #56001 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
richardsim7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,543
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1671 Post(s)
Liked: 2254
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
And why have we seen this phenomenon to occur quite regularly with legacy mixes that have been up-mixed into immersive ones?

On the contrary, Fury (2014), one of the movies @FilmMixer said he worked on actually gained bass/ULF in its UHD Blu-Ray Atmos release








galonzo, paulst, aron7awol and 3 others like this.
richardsim7 is offline  
post #56002 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mrtickleuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Birmingham, UK - you know, the original one!
Posts: 8,943
Mentioned: 222 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6223 Post(s)
Liked: 9052
Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
What is defined as “accurate”? Which mix is supposedly the one with the “artists intent”? A good example is the Master and Commander DVD vs blu-ray.

When a movie comes out with neutered bass In the 4K UHD Atmos version vs the previously released 1080p blu-ray which one is accurate ?
The truth is that we don't know. It could be that the previously-released 1080p blu-ray was the one which had too much bass, and it was "corrected" for the later release. You would have to ask the people who created each one.

But if you use loaded terms like "neutered bass" then my opinion is that you seem to be starting with a pre-judged view of which you you believe is "right".

Also, they could both be wrong. The earlier release could have a bit too much bass, and the later release could have not enough bass.

We do not know for certain, we have feelings, memories of what it sounded like in the cinema, and a crowd-sourced view of things. This is all fine, but adding all those things up doesn't then produce facts, as much as we would like them to.

And of course, it goes without saying, you don't have to try something to have a view on it. Applies to many things in life. I know that I don't want to do a parachute jump. Anyone who tells me that I can't make that decision unless I do a parachute jump first, and then I can decide whether I liked it afterwards, would get short shrift.

_______________
Denon AVR-X4200W, Arcam Alpha 8P; 5.1.4 setup: Mission 702e, M7C1i, 77DS, 731. Rel T5 Sub. Monitor Audio CT165 4 Tops | LG OLED55C8PLA TV | Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-Ray

HDMI 2.0 4K modes | Dolby & DTS core+outer audio tracks on (UHD) Blu-Rays | Hello to Jason Isaacs

Last edited by mrtickleuk; 10-05-2019 at 05:41 PM.
mrtickleuk is offline  
post #56003 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
It's really not anywhere near as dire as you're imagining, though, with Moe in the mixing room, Larry on the boom, and Curly as the foley artist.
No, it was intelligent guy 1, 2, and 3. Intelligent guy 3, the Foley artist, knew it wasn't critical to turn off the room's oscillating fan and take their shoes off before they gently walk on a rubber mat like a sneaky ninja (since otherwise the thump of foot fall could cause an infrasonic thump and the fan a changing hum) because he knew it was all going to be filtered away after the mic. What he didn't anticipate though is that some home hobbyists were going to alter the mix by inserting a reverse EQ to not only undo the studio's filtration but possibly even jack up the 20Hz and below content even further than it was being filtered away.
m. zillch is offline  
post #56004 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 05:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,949
Mentioned: 685 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3968 Post(s)
Liked: 16367
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That's not always easy to tell, but that doesn't mean arbitrarily monkeying around with an EQ is achieving accuracy, it is only achieving personal preference, which is not my goal. YMMV. [ I guess I'm the only one here who doesn't seek preference; I seek high fidelity.] If the master is unavailable to compare to the copy this doesn't mean everything is up for grabs, it just means we don't know the answer and restoration can only be a guess. I personally choose not to guess, especially when I have good reason to believe there are many and common false sources for infrasonic content which are actually mistakes/noise. YMMV.
Again, I totally respect your desire for high fidelity, as far as reproducing what was heard in the mixing room.

But I guess I also take a step back and ask myself if I want what I hear to be "accurate" according to what was heard in the mixing room, or to use First Man as an example, more "accurate" as far as how the Saturn V rocket actually sounded. Now, of course, one could certainly argue that the mixer intended to filter the bass out "for effect", and there are certainly times where there are filters/modifications applied to sound effects "for effect". Is the launch in First Man one of those? Maybe, but that would seem like a very strange choice. If you watched that demo clip on your system having never seen the movie or knowing what the stock mix is like, with and without BEQ, even with modest subs, the perceivable difference between the two would be like someone is simply turning your subs on and off. It won't be over the top with BEQ, it will be balanced and feel normal. It actually feels abnormal with BEQ off, you're expecting some bass given what's happening on-screen, and there's just...nothing.

So I think we're all just left wondering if the mixer really intended for that entire mix of First Man to sound that weak, and if so, why? Is it because they think microphones in 1969 weren't capable of recording infrasonics? Is it because there's no ULF on the moon? Is it because Neil Armstrong's grandson has a soundbar?

Obviously I'm kidding with that stuff, but it's just such an unusual mix in that respect, with essentially zero bass throughout the entire film, that it makes us wonder what is intentional and what is not? What is accurate and what is not? I think it totally depends on the context, and the circle of confusion means the type of absolute "accurate to what the mixer heard" standard you're chasing is out the window anyway. That doesn't mean you shouldn't chase it, but I guess we don't feel that standard is the "end all, be all" like you do.

So I think that sort of wonder and questioning of what is intentional is what spurred the initial discussion in here, knowing @FilmMixer posts in here, and wanting to get his take on this stuff. His opinion is just one opinion, but it offers a special insight and is valuable to know. The discussion has obviously at this point shifted and derailed this thread as it has turned into a debate on the merits of BEQ. But I don't think that was anyone's intention from the beginning (here we go trying to determine intent again), and didn't want it to offend anyone in here. At this point, it feels to me a lot like a political discussion, or sealed vs. ported, where I cringe when I see those discussions happening as they always seem to incite passion and make emotions run high. And like I said in my first post weighing in on this stuff, I don't really care where the various lines actually fall, because my goal is to maximize enjoyment above all else. If nothing else, I think it's tough to argue with that as a goal for a man living a short life on this Earth.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is online now  
post #56005 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 06:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,949
Mentioned: 685 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3968 Post(s)
Liked: 16367
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
No, it was intelligent guy 1, 2, and 3. Intelligent guy 3, the Foley artist, knew it wasn't critical to turn off the room's oscillating fan and take their shoes off before they gently walk on a rubber mat like a sneaky ninja (since otherwise the thump of foot fall could cause an infrasonic thump and the fan a changing hum) because he knew it was all going to be filtered away after the mic. What he didn't anticipate though is that some home hobbyists were going to alter the mix by inserting a reverse EQ to not only undo the studio's filtration but possibly even jack up the 20Hz and below content even further than it was being filtered away.
I know, I was totally joking. But seriously, they didn't have to anticipate any of that, because it seems if any of those things happened, they were removed during editing. They never made it to the mix at any level high enough to be perceptible. You can take my word for it based on the thousands of hours of experience I have watching mixes I've BEQed, or not. But if not, then I'll just challenge you to find an example. And after thousands of hours of watching BEQed content that you don't want to watch, if you do find one, I'll just point out that it was one fleeting moment out of thousands of hours and thus irrelevant as an issue in the real-world.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is online now  
post #56006 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 06:04 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
We do not know for certain, we have feelings, memories of what it sounded like in the cinema, and a crowd-sourced view of things. This is all fine, but adding all those things up doesn't then produce facts
But, but, but we all know exactly what an alien death ray sounds like so we know exactly how to correct it in a filtered mix. Don't give me any of this "I've never heard one/They don't exist" malarkey.
mrtickleuk likes this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 10-05-2019 at 06:33 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #56007 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 06:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DesertDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 171 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1156 Post(s)
Liked: 3056
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"Frequency Response 13–30 Hz ±4 dB" at 4m, according to them not a third party, and not at the seated position, and with unspecified output level and distortion limits. Probably using more typical 3dB tolerances it is around 16/17 - 30Hz +/- 3dB, so hardly "infrasonic" in my book just because it can go a scooch under 20Hz, if you are right on top of it at least.


"15 to 30 Hz.” - John Meyer, President & CEO, Meyer Sound [unspecified tolerances, distance, room loading, output level, distortion - m. zillch]

Sounds interesting though and maybe a BD I'd buy.
So now you're speculating on how it actually performed and saying their claim of having the studio and theater set up to go do to 13 hz is just a "scooch under 20 hz" and not infrasonic? Way to move the goal posts from "There's not a single commercial cinema sub in production which extends flat to well below 20Hz" when shown one. They set the theater up specifically for it with a bunch of those units. I'm going to go with their claim based on everything I've read about it over someone trying to twist it to fit their narrative.

The movie and disc are great though if you don't have them. This is the one movie that I'll confidently say is 100% artist intent. Coppola was involved with the remastering for "sensual sound" (I still can't get back that term ) and Atmos. It's what he wanted to do for the release in 79 but didn't have the technology to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Interesting; they must use have to use a lot of them as a pair of ported 18's is insufficient for a lot of HT's (at least for the creazies around here), let alone a cinema.
It looks like they used 12 of those plus another 6 of another one of their subs that have a 30-85 hz range. They have a blog post on it. There was also a good article on it if you want to read more.

Re-reading that article there was a part that I found interesting for all of this discussion:

Quote:
During the back and forth with the mixers, the Meyer team figured out how best to calibrate the subs so that they could print the LFE channel without losing headroom. Too much LF energy, and headroom is shot, forcing people to sometimes highpass the LFE channel to preserve their headroom.
I wonder if that's playing a part in these Atmos mixes. Could it be that some of the mixers or studios are being over cautious with headroom and adding the high pass filters?

#IHateNalleh
The struggle is real for Generation Xplain Digital to the Analog and Analog to the Digital.
Klipsch RF-7III, RC-64III
SI HS-24mkIII BOSS-Sac
Sony 85X900F, Denon 8500, nVidia Shield, Apple TV
DesertDog is offline  
post #56008 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 06:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,949
Mentioned: 685 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3968 Post(s)
Liked: 16367
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
I wonder if that's playing a part in these Atmos mixes. Could it be that some of the mixers or studios are being over cautious with headroom and adding the high pass filters?
I almost posted about exactly this in this thread at least 3 times this week, but was hesitant to open up another off-topic can of worms in here. Oh well, the can's open now!

In my mind, it definitely plays some part in this. For example, I looked at the mix for Power Rangers, and most of the channels (including LFE) have zero headroom. Now, Power Rangers is a pretty neutral mix volume-wise, and it's running out of headroom without having a ton of strong content <20Hz. So it can definitely become an issue, and if the choice comes between reducing overall volume, more clipping, or filtering out some ULF, it certainly wouldn't be surprising at all if some chose the latter. Especially with some of the "volume wars" we've seen with certain mixes eliminating the first option altogether.
DesertDog, galonzo and d-rail34 like this.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is online now  
post #56009 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 07:02 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,099
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6747 Post(s)
Liked: 4963
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
So now you're speculating on how it actually performed and saying their claim of having the studio and theater set up to go do to 13 hz is just a "scooch under 20 hz" and not infrasonic? Way to move the goal posts from "There's not a single commercial cinema sub in production which extends flat to well below 20Hz" when shown one. They set the theater up specifically for it with a bunch of those units. I'm going to go with their claim based on everything I've read about it over someone trying to twist it to fit their narrative.
What I wrote stands: "flat well below 20Hz". You noticed the word "well", right? And flat means flat, not reduced 3 or 4 dB. It does not equal 3 dB down at 16Hz, nor 4dB down at 13Hz. Plus these are the 4m distance readings. I don't expect anyone to be sitting within 12 feet of these things when they go to a cinema.
m. zillch is offline  
post #56010 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 07:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,949
Mentioned: 685 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3968 Post(s)
Liked: 16367
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What I wrote stands: "flat well below 20Hz". You noticed the word "well", right? And flat means flat, not reduced 3 or 4 dB. It does not equal 3 dB down at 16Hz, nor 4dB down at 13Hz. Plus these are the 4m distance readings. I don't expect anyone to be sitting within 12 feet of these things when they go to a cinema.
Are you ignoring room gain and EQ?
DesertDog, galonzo, paulst and 1 others like this.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips TR Curves
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Fusion-8 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
aron7awol is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off