The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1868 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56011 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Are you ignoring room gain and EQ?
Large rooms like commercial theaters don't have room gain.
---

Here's what most are shooting for.

ISO 2969:


Although this curve takes into account sitting 2/3rds back and the greater reverberation element, as measured by pink noise and an RTA which hears all those reflections too. So this is not exactly like our home FR plots.

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post #56012 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 07:31 PM
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There's a more detailed graphic and it shows a slight difference for the x-curve depending on the size of the auditorium:


https://www.lafontaudio.com/dossiers/images/xcurve.jpg
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post #56013 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Large rooms like commercial theaters don't have room gain.
Mixing rooms do. Didn't you say you were trying to match the experience in the mixing room as closely as possible? Isn't that the pinnacle of fidelity?

Why aren't commercial theaters flat to the single-digits? Because they don't want them to be, or because it's impractical in such a large space? Is that intent or just the reality of physics and finances?

Edit to add: What about the fact that Dolby Cinema seats have transducers to produce ULF?

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post #56014 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Mixing rooms do.
Oh they use these Meyers VLFC Very Low Frequency Control devices, the current topic of our conversation, in mixing rooms too? That was not my understanding.

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What I wrote stands: "flat well below 20Hz". You noticed the word "well", right? And flat means flat, not reduced 3 or 4 dB. It does not equal 3 dB down at 16Hz, nor 4dB down at 13Hz. Plus these are the 4m distance readings. I don't expect anyone to be sitting within 12 feet of these things when they go to a cinema.
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Are you ignoring room gain and EQ?
---

I've had enough with the hostility and "gotcha" mentality showing an incredibly rare device used in only a handful of theaters for maybe one movie, that for all I know is only flat to 20, no better, then 3dB down at 16Hz, 4dB at 13Hz, and this assumes you are 12 feet away or less. Good night.
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post #56015 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I almost posted about exactly this in this thread at least 3 times this week, but was hesitant to open up another off-topic can of worms in here. Oh well, the can's open now!
I figured it was on topic since it's talking about the master process for Atmos titles.

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Oh they use these Meyers VLFC Very Low Frequency Control devices, the current topic of our conversation, in mixing rooms too? That was not my understanding.
Directly from the article I post:

"After the months at Zoetrope, we took two VLFCs over to the Dolby mix studio and they played with them, adding not just low frequency, but textures, like a pulsing sound. After a couple months, they were adding depth with low frequency."

Earlier in the article they talk about having them at Coppola's private studio too where they were doing the initial mixing.
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post #56016 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Oh they use these Meyers VLFC Very Low Frequency Control devices, the current topic of our conversation, in mixing rooms too? That was not my understanding.
Just because you move the goalposts a few times doesn't mean the previous topics aren't still in play. You are choosing not to answer questions in my post that I am legitimately asking so I can understand your goals, because some of it is seeming contradictory.

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20Hz you say? There's not a single commercial cinema sub in production which extends flat to well below 20Hz*, so your claim infrasonic bass reproduction is the intent of the content creators implies they aren't really concerned with the sound for the commercial cinemas but rather for the [I'm guessing < .1%] of the home market with flat response, with low distortion, at the seated position, well below 20Hz, at reference playback level. I disagree: They are focused on commercial cinema sound.
This includes Dolby Cinema with transducers, right?
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post #56017 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 08:33 PM
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Why are we still discussing commercial cinema sound when the movies are going to be remixed (the directors, mixers, and editors KNOW this) specifically for home use (Blu-ray and UHD)?

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post #56018 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
There's not a single commercial cinema sub in production which extends flat to well below 20Hz
Oops. My bad, how incredibly sloppy of me not to specify when I wrote commercial cinema sub in production I meant in use in a commercial cinema sized room. You boys got me there.
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post #56019 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Didn't you say you were trying to match the experience in the mixing room as closely as possible?
No I did not (mean to) say I was trying to match the experience in the mixing room. They listen in several rooms of varying sizes, and also headphones under certain circumstances I'd think. I want to hear it as they intended the audience to experience it in a commercial cinema.

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post #56020 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Isn't that the pinnacle of fidelity?
Since the target playback room has completely different acoustics, I'd say no. YMMV.
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post #56021 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:30 PM
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Why aren't commercial theaters flat to the single-digits? Because they don't want them to be, or because it's impractical in such a large space?
Because they understand Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves and the threshold of hearing. So they don't do single digit bass in their production rooms either nor their private homes.

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post #56022 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:34 PM
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Because they understand Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves and the threshold of hearing.

It’s not just about hearing but also feeling the bass.

What is your home system setup like? What type of subs/speaker set up do you listen on? Just trying to understand your point of view.


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post #56023 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Is that intent or just the reality of physics and finances?
Intent.
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post #56024 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
It’s not just about hearing but also feeling the bass.

What is your home system setup like?
Fisher Price and Mattel. Why would it matter since my understanding of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness and the threshold of hearing is not from my own testing, if that's what you think, it is from research?

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post #56025 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:43 PM
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Fisher Price and Mattel. Why would it matter since my understanding of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness is not from my own testing, if that's what you think, it is from research?

I’m specifically wondering about your inferred point that theaters should not produce sounds below the threshold of hearing.... that it does not add anything to the experience. Is that your position?


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post #56026 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Fisher Price and Mattel. Why would it matter since my understanding of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness is not from my own testing, if that's what you think, it is from research?

It would help to understand if you experience, in your home, the pure joy of a system that can produce “relatively” clean 10-20Hz bass at “relatively” high SPL or if you have no subs and are using flat panel tv speakers.

Maybe that is the disconnect from us “bass heads”?


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post #56027 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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I’m specifically wondering about your inferred point that theaters should not produce sounds below the threshold of hearing.... that it does not add anything to the experience. Is that your position?
Don't have it handy but papers by Feidler(?) and others have found the seated position in commercial theaters are incapable of deep bass flat well below ~20Hz or so. . . . I don't think he used 27 2x18" woofer subs though.
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post #56028 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:50 PM
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Don't have it handy but papers by Feidler(?) and others have found the seated position in commercial theaters are incapable of deep bass. I don't think he used 27 2x18" woofer subs though.


I’m not talking commercial I mean any home theater, tv room or commercial stage or theater. You inferred that only audible frequencies matter.


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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Because they understand Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves and the threshold of hearing. So they don't do single digit bass in their production rooms either nor their private homes.
Seems presumptuous

https://nofilmschool.com/2017/06/dis...ses-infrasound

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post #56030 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 09:53 PM
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It would help to understand if you experience, in your home, the pure joy of a system that can produce “relatively” clean 10-20Hz bass at “relatively” high SPL or if you have no subs and are using flat panel tv speakers.

Maybe that is the disconnect from us “bass heads”?
Since I answered your question, now please answer mine. What is the lowest frequency you hear in my video with your system set for flat playback response and no tactile transducers? [You must select HD 1080 mode to get the single digits]

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Since I answered your question, now please answer mine. What is the lowest frequency you hear in my video with your system set for flat playback response and no tactile transducers? [You must select HD 1080 mode to get the single digits]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rFT1UNp7tE

I don’t think you answered my question about your system but...
I am out of town now but will do the test late this week...
but unless I am superhuman I should not hear anything below 20-22Hz.


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I don’t think you answered my question about your system but...
I said I have junk. It does not play single digit bass. What else do you need to know?
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Since I answered your question, now please answer mine. What is the lowest frequency you hear in my video with your system set for flat playback response and no tactile transducers? [You must select HD 1080 mode to get the single digits]
From that video I could hear down to 17 hz and feel down to 4 hz with my system.
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post #56034 of 58884 Old 10-05-2019, 10:09 PM
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From that link I only quickly scanned we only learn (the claim) "Check out how filmmakers use these almost inaudible frequencies to quietly unnerve moviegoers."

A) The said they are audible, not inaudible. "Almost inaudible" = audible

B) No movies and the specific frequencies they use are mentioned

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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From that video I could hear down to 17 hz and feel down to 4 hz with my system.
And you have designed your system to be dead flat in sound reproduction from 4Hz -20kHz, you aren't using any "house curve" or anything, and there are no transducers. Yes?

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From that video I could hear down to 17 hz and feel down to 4 hz with my system.
Also what infrasonic mic did you use to achieve this flat room response down to 4Hz when you designed it? Do you have room curves to show us this response taken at the listening chair?

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
From that link I only quickly scanned we only learn (the claim) "Check out how filmmakers use these almost inaudible frequencies to quietly unnerve moviegoers."

A) The said they are audible, not inaudible. "Almost inaudible" = audible

B) No movies and the specific frequencies they use are mentioned
Are you trying to say that they don't want to use or look to use inaudible frequencies? You're mistaken on that. The director I mentioned that I worked with was using it and from the Apocalypse Now article:

“When you see the B-52 strikes in this new version, you hear them and then you feel them,” he [Coppola] adds. “It’s the difference between just hearing something and being inside a room that’s shaking. You get scared when the room is shaking.”

“Not only could they monitor and hear into the Infrasonic for the very first time, they could feel it in a way so that they could creatively design, make it a part of the story. ‘Do we want the rumble to roll out, or do we want it to kick you in the chest?’ With a full-frequency, linear system, you can do that.”

So they are definitely looking to use sound for feel and not hearing.

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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
From that link I only quickly scanned we only learn (the claim) "Check out how filmmakers use these almost inaudible frequencies to quietly unnerve moviegoers."

A) The said they are audible, not inaudible. "Almost inaudible" = audible

B) No movies and the specific frequencies they use are mentioned
The article covers both bullet points
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Are you trying to say that they don't want to use or look to use inaudible frequencies? You're mistaken on that. The director I mentioned that I worked with was using it and from the Apocalypse Now article:

“When you see the B-52 strikes in this new version, you hear them and then you feel them,” he [Coppola] adds. “It’s the difference between just hearing something and being inside a room that’s shaking. You get scared when the room is shaking.”

“Not only could they monitor and hear into the Infrasonic for the very first time, they could feel it in a way so that they could creatively design, make it a part of the story. ‘Do we want the rumble to roll out, or do we want it to kick you in the chest?’ With a full-frequency, linear system, you can do that.”

So they are definitely looking to use sound for feel and not hearing.
I'm not seeing a frequency being mentioned. How do I know it is not a loud thump at 20Hz for those B52, I guess bombs?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
The article covers both bullet points
Name the movie and the frequency please.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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