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post #56041 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:44 AM
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Interesting Read https://www.academia.edu/16781233/Qu...or_film_DRAFT_

Quantitative analysis of sound in a horror film

It is interesting that a horror film such as
Behold the Noose
includes sounds inthe frequency range 1-20 Hz because infrasound has been associated with theproduction or enhancement of subjective paranormal experiences:
The inability of most people to ‘hear’ infrasound means that its effects upon
a person are largely unexpected and therefore more likely to be attributedto other causes, and in some instances where the percipient is in a hauntedlocation or involved in the pursuit of ghost-hunting such effects arefrequently blamed upon a paranormal agent or cause (Parsons 2012: 155).Studies on psychological effects of infrasound report subjects feeling ill-at-ease,anxious, troubled, or terrified; while reported physiological effects include nausea,vertigo, ear-pressure, and feelings of pressure in the upper chest and throat (seeLandström 2000, Moller and Pedersen 2004, and Parsons 2012 for reviews ofthese findings). Paranormal researchers suggest that such effects when reportedin the context of poltergeist activity or hauntings are in fact produced by natural orman-made sources of infrasound: Tandy and Lawrence (1998) and Tandy (2000)attributed reported paranormal phenomena to infrasound at a frequency of ~19Hz, while subjects reported similar experiences in the presence of infrasound in
an artificially created ‘haunted’ room (French
at al. 2009).Close analysis of the data matrix underpinning the spectrogram in Figure 1 (b)reveals that in
Behold the Noose
infrasound features in the soundtrack at variouspoints and is associated with the unfortunate deputy. In the first part of sectionII.A (19.3-73.9s) sounds with frequencies in the range 10-20 Hz are a constantfeature of the soundtrack as the dispatcher sends the deputy to look for themissing girl. At three points in this section the range of low frequency noise usedincreases to 5-20 Hz: these moments occur at 27.3s, 43.4s, and 55.9s and allbegin and end when the deputy talks to his dispatcher. There are no soundsbelow 20 Hz when the dispatcher speaks. This pattern is not present after 73.9swhen the dispatcher warns the deputy to take care because there might be
‘ghosts’ at the farmhouse and the deputy laughs off the suggestion.
On arrival atthe farmhouse the deputy exits his vehicle and retrieves his shotgun from thetrunk (123.7-146.7s) and during these actions there is an increase in amplitude infrequencies in the range 8-20 Hz. It is very clear from the sound design andediting in this section that the use of low frequency sound is deliberate, and isintended to create a tense, brooding atmosphere in general and to make usanxious for the deputy in particular even though there are no horrific images oraction to disturb us.Section II.B uses very low frequency sounds to increase tension as the deputysearches the grounds. Beginning at 160.0s running until 233.5s, there areincreases in the amplitude of frequencies in the 10-20 Hz and 1-5 Hz ranges.These sounds are intermittent throughout this sequence increasing anddecreasing in amplitude as the deputy makes his way through the grounds butpeak at the most emotionally intense moments (i.e. the shot of the bloody sheet,
the ‘false shock’ of the escaping birds, and the reveal of the body hanging in the shed). In section III the amplitude of sounds with frequencies below 5 Hzincreases from the moment the deputy discovers the skull in a jar to a peak whenthe deputy hears the noises that draw him outside and to his doom. Infrasound ishere used as part of the sustain in this section of the film and, unlike the use ofinfrasound in section II.B, not part of the attack. A final use of infrasound occursin section IV.A
as the deputy is stabbed and runs until the trumpets of ‘WitchLynching’ punctuate the soundtrack (
435.3-458.4s), and includes sounds in therange 1-20 Hz along with increased amplitude in the sub-bass range (20-60 Hz).Infrasound in these sequences is associated with moments of heightened anxietyand (eventually) violence featuring the deputy, building on the earlier use of lowfrequency sound to prime the audience to deliver the required shocks.In the sequences described above the peak amplitude of infrasonicfrequencies is just below the peak level of the film (normalised to a peak volumeof 0.0 dB). For example, sounds below 5 Hz in section III have a true-peakamplitude of -2.06 dB and so it is reasonable to assume that these are soundsthat could be experienced by an audience. However, determining their effect ismore difficult: it is clear from the above description the filmmakers use infrasoundat various points of
Behold the Noose
with conscious intent but the degree towhich this psychologically or physiologically impacts the audience is unknown.Theatres are being equipped with infrasonic systems in order to make lowfrequency noise a part of the cinema experience (Symonds 2007), but there havebeen no systematic studies of the use or effects of infrasound in film soundtracks
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post #56042 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:15 AM
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It’s not just about hearing but also feeling the bass.

What is your home system setup like? What type of subs/speaker set up do you listen on? Just trying to understand your point of view.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
My Yamaha TSR-7810, an introductory level Atmos AVR
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
my modest SVS sub
Not sure why it's such a big secret.. took about 2 mins to find these.. Do Yamaha AVR's EQ the sub correctly I know there were issues some time ago with them not applying EQ below 63hz IIRC

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Do you have room curves to show us this response taken at the listening chair?
Can you post a graph of your flat response please? Do you use REW for measurements or just rely on the YPAO to EQ?
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post #56043 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by varun432 View Post
Behold the Noose
It's a short, apparently, independently distributed by what I'm guessing is a small web based distributor, not a full length film by a major label.

I haven't watched it but here:

I also posted the movie "20Hz", IIRC, in another one of these debates. SCARY but I liked it. [I have to be in the right mood for these sorts of flicks though.]

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post #56044 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 10:06 AM
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Not sure why it's such a big secret.. took about 2 mins to find these..
Sorry, since I never claimed to have good deep bass extension and thought I made it pretty darn clear that I didn't when asked about it:

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Fisher Price and Mattel. Why would it matter since my understanding of Fletcher-Munson equal loudness and the threshold of hearing is not from my own testing, if that's what you think, it is from research?
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I said I have junk. It does not play single digit bass. What else do you need to know?
It never occurred to me that knowing specifically what low-end gear with poor bass extension I was currently using was of much significance.

I'm probably older than you [although I don't share my age over the web so don't bother asking] and, believe it or not, this system I've had for about one year isn't the only one I've ever owned or experienced, but since I rent in an apt. building it doesn't make sense to me to invest in anything other than a temporary, bare bones setup since I'm not allowed to play stuff at full level, in fact I leave my sub completely off most of the time because bass is the part of the music/movies which migrates through walls [and generates warning notices from the landlord] the most easily.

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Do Yamaha AVR's EQ the sub correctly I know there were issues some time ago with them not applying EQ below 63hz IIRC
Oh, I get it now. You needed to know specifics in order to slam my gear with a slight. Now I understand. I disapprove of trash talk/belittling other people's gear and look down on such behavior. But that's just my opinion.

To answer your question, not that I think you really care and instead merely wanted an angle to belittle my gear, I'm not sure how Yamaha handles the bass. I have not looked into it. I know my Audyssey based Marantz prepro is said to EQ down to 10Hz if it feels it goes that low, but I'm not currently using it.

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Can you post a graph of your flat response please?
No, sorry, in this temporary place I'm renting I've not had any interest in bothering to measure nor play around with it and largely listen to near-field monitors un-EQ'd most of the time anyways (and also headphones), plus I don't currently own an infrasonic range mic. [The fact that so many in forums use UMIKs, Behringer, Dayton, etc. limited bandwidth mics I personally think is a big mistake (if one is concerned with infrasonic bass), but I'll save that for another thread] Plus I have never referred to my system as having a "flat response" in the first place. My current room acoustics are quite poor too, by the way.

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Do you use REW for measurements or just rely on the YPAO to EQ?
Answered above.
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post #56045 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch
It's a short, apparently, independently distributed by what I'm guessing is a small web based distributor, not a full length film by a major label.
And that fact magically eliminates artistic intent?

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post #56046 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 10:39 AM
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And that fact magically eliminates artistic intent?
Well since I've made a movie that goes down to 1 Hz this proves 1 Hz is perceptible?

There are also movies with intentional ultrasonics. This also does not prove much of anything other than that there are some people who think it matters, who make films.

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post #56047 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 11:02 AM
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Artistic intent isn't limited in theory by a frequency range, although in practice it is by playback equipment limitations or the instrumentation used in its composition.

Some sound designers and/or mixers may take into consideration playback equipment (at theaters or at home) when designing/mixing sound, but other may not care and include full bandwidth tracks for the people who can play them. This is still artistic intent, and should be included by definition in the search for high fidelity, even if it's not currently achievable for some reason or another.

Electronic music artists are among the least concerned for typical music conventions/limitations , and have experimented at the very extremes of the audible range. Recently I posted in the Ultimate Bass thread a track called Veronex Cypher by UK artist Bola which has the following graphs:




He's actually asking for the listener to play content at very high levels at around 3-4hz for nearly 90 secs straight. Maybe he's crazy, maybe he wasn't aware of the infrasonic content (doubt it) but it's what's on record. Not all his music is like this, but he has a some tracks with high amounts of infrasonics. The quest for high fidelity as a pure concept has ended before it even has started for the majority of mortals.

The irony of this is that people with ultra high capable systems (which do exist, many of the frequent this site) and people with transducers and similar devices are closer to the artistic intent than people who stopped at 20hz. It seems to me that you're then one who is limiting artistic intent at 20hz, and it's not truly searching for high fidelity, and whatever it means in reality.

And, for the record, if you have crap as a system, then I have triple crap. We all try to enjoy movies/music to the extent of our capabilities, but I wouldn't easily dismiss ULF content, especially on the notion that it doesn't have a true artistic intention or because it's unplayable or inaudible.

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post #56048 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 11:02 AM
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Oh, I get it now. You needed to know specifics in order to slam my gear with a slight. Now I understand. I disapprove of trash talk/belittling other people's gear and look down on such behavior. But that's just my opinion.

To answer your question, not that I think you really care and instead merely wanted an angle to belittle my gear, I'm not sure how Yamaha handles the bass. I have not looked into it. I know my Audyssey based Marantz prepro is said to EQ down to 10Hz if it feels it goes that low, but I'm not currently using it.


No, sorry, in this temporary place I'm renting I've not had any interest in bothering to measure nor play around with it and largely listen to near-field monitors un-EQ'd most of the time anyways (and also headphones), plus I don't currently own an infrasonic range mic. [The fact that so many in forums use UMIKs, Behringer, Dayton, etc. limited bandwidth mics I personally think is a big mistake (if one is concerned with infrasonic bass), but I'll save that for another thread] Plus I have never referred to my system as having a "flat response" in the first place. My current room acoustics are quite poor too, by the way.
No not at all, I'm always curious as to what equipment people use regardless, I've heard a Yamaha system (AVR) and have never considered them to be inferior sounding, even back when the YPAO didn't EQ below 63hz (which is easily fixed with external EQ device like an AntiMode) But it seems the newer models have a 4 band PEQ now from what I've read? So perfectly adept to EQ most subwoofers.. Like I said I'm just curious Not trying to belittle anything.. Also, I've never heard any SVS that sounded crap (I've had a few myself) so no doubt you have a perfectly capable subwoofer IMO.. which model is it?

You seem like you're quite a helpful chap on these forums, offering some good advice in the Marantz and Yamaha AVR owners threads, it's just in this thread you come across as a bit obsessive trying to get your point across without actually trying it for yourself (talking BEQ).. No harm in sampling a little bit is there? You never know, you might like it But you won't know until you try it

Anyways, no offense intended
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post #56049 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 11:41 AM
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without actually trying it for yourself (talking BEQ).. No harm in sampling a little bit is there? You never know, you might like it
Rather understandably, you don't seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact that unlike the vast majority of people, I don't seek what I like visually and aurally. That's called "preference". Instead what I seek is high fidelity, warts and all, to the master. I seek what I have reason to believe is an accurate, faithful, high fdelity recreation of the signal on the master tape as I have reason to believe was the way the artist intended theater goers to hear it. [ ERm, master hard drive I guess these days, not "tape".]

Say theoretically I listened to a BEQ track and thought, "Wow, this sounds fantastic. It sounds exactly like a Saturn V take off in real life, and I'd know, I've heard one in person!" [Not true. Remember, this is just a theoretical event.] Would I then use it? NO! For reasons which may very well be creative intent, we aren't dead sure, the film/music creators make decisions about EQing music and films I wish to replicate, as exactly as I can within my budget and room constraints. [There are also voice coil safety concerns at play in some instances.]

You seem to want the sound of a Saturn V rocket in your living room. I get that.

I want the sound of the processed and manipulated recording of a Saturn V rocket played in my living room because that's what was intended for the commercial theater goers to hear.

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post #56050 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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But it seems the newer models have a 4 band PEQ now from what I've read?
The main channels each have 7 independent parametric bands each, of freq/Q/.5 dB increments of cut/boost, with a lowest center frequency setting of 15.6 Hz. The sub channel has 4 bands, also with 15.6Hz being the lowest center freq..
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post #56051 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:08 PM
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which model is it?
This one, which I load with pi placement (actually, it is also within a quarter wave length of a room corner I believe), I'm near-field, and my room is small:

I have never measured mine nor attempted EQ, which I will, some day, when I care about the room.

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post #56052 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:23 PM
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Rather understandably, you don't seem to be able to wrap your head around the fact that unlike the vast majority of people, I don't seek what I like visually and aurally. That's called "preference". Instead what I seek is high fidelity, warts and all, to the master. I seek what I have reason to believe is an accurate, faithful, high fdelity recreation of the signal on the master tape as I have reason to believe was the way the artist intended theater goers to hear it. [ ERm, master hard drive I guess these days, not "tape".]

Say theoretically I listened to a BEQ track and thought, "Wow, this sounds fantastic. It sounds exactly like a Saturn V take off in real life, and I'd know, I've heard one in person!" [Not true. Remember, this is just a theoretical event.] Would I then use it? NO! For reasons which may very well be creative intent, we aren't dead sure, the film/music creators make decisions about EQing music and films I wish to replicate, as exactly as I can within my budget and room constraints. [There are also voice coil safety concerns at play in some instances.]

You seem to want the sound of a Saturn V rocket in your living room. I get that.

I want the sound of the processed and manipulated recording of a Saturn V rocket played in my living room because that's what was intended for the commercial theater goers to hear.
Yes but going the variations of the different audio tracks within the same movie (ie: DVD to BD to UHD versions) surely you're confidence in artistic intend is slowly starting to wither? I personally think they're stitching us up at every opportunity with inferior audio tracks, otherwise all audio tracks would be the same surely?

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This one, which I load with 2-pi placement, I'm nearfeild, and my room is small:
I had the previous model (an SB12+) cracking little sub for it's size.. I've also had an original PB12+ (2006 model), a PC13 Ultra and then two SB13 Ultras.. every one put a smile on my face.. you can't go wrong with SVS IMO, It's just being UK based, the prices have doubled over the years (I paid £875 for my original PC13U, before being discontinued their rrp increased to £1800 ) so now PSA are the best for buck over here.. currently running two PSA S1811 and I doubt they'll be going anywhere soon (unless I need to downsize for whatever reason but I certainly hope not)
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post #56053 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:49 PM
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My NAD preamp, Monitor Series 1300, has a Bass EQ button, BTW. And I have tried that.


I've also owned in the past an Allison Electronic Subwoofer, if you guys know what those are, which had a similar bass roll-off correction EQ but it was variable. This general concept is not new although the exact implementation varies.

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post #56054 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:57 PM
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Say theoretically I listened to a BEQ track and thought, "Wow, this sounds fantastic. It sounds exactly like a Saturn V take off in real life, and I'd know, I've heard one in person!" [Not true. Remember, this is just a theoretical event.] Would I then use it? NO! For reasons which may very well be creative intent, we aren't dead sure, the film/music creators make decisions about EQing music and films I wish to replicate, as exactly as I can within my budget and room constraints. [There are also voice coil safety concerns at play in some instances.]
You know your SVS sub has built in protection to avoid this don't you? You shouldn't be able to damage the sub or VC if you played that scene all day, plus if you have warranty, then surely you're safe to do as you please?

See this vids for example (SB13U).. I've never had excursion like this ever, it's clear he hasn't EQ'd the sub, but regardless it's clearly capable of driving that hard.. the second one actually blows the metal grille off


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post #56055 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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You know your SVS sub has built in protection to avoid this don't you? You shouldn't be able to damage the sub or VC if you played that scene all day, plus if you have warranty, then surely you safe to as you as you please?



See this vids for example (SB13U).. I've never had excursion like this ever, it's clear he hasn't EQ'd the sub, but regardless it's clearly capable of driving that hard.. the second one actually blows the metal grille off



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgmVGTYXolM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVjiOrjQ6oM


Why bother responding in this thread any longer. He doesn’t even run his subwoofer most of the time per his own admission. Seems to defeat the whole high fidelity argument, cutting out a lot of the low end by having the sub off
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post #56056 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:06 PM
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You know your SVS sub has built in protection to avoid this don't you?
Yes I know it is said to have such protection but I suspect it may just be for peak excursion, not super long sustained, two and a half minutes+, Saturn V rocket 20Hz (or lower) take off sound. That's a wacky scenario which almost never occurs in most movies and as I explained earlier voice coil safety has an element of "duration of dangerous content" to it.

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post #56057 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Why bother responding in this thread any longer. He doesn’t even run his subwoofer most of the time per his own admission. Seems to defeat the whole high fidelity argument, cutting out a lot of the low end by having the sub off
I think everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves by realising what they're missing out on Even my mate who has a B&W PV1 sub can tell the difference on the First Man demo clip (and his sub survived), someone with an SB-2000 should easily be able to.. Every person that realises what a game changer BEQ is, is another member who won't go back Some just need a bit more convincing than others

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post #56058 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
I think everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves by realising what they're missing out on Even my mate who has a B&W PV1 sub can tell the difference on the First Man demo clip, someone with an SB-2000 should easily be able to.. Every person that realises what a game changer BEQ is another member who won't go back Some just need a bit more convincing than others


Yeah but most of those people don’t have a stubborn pompous attitude. If you haven’t tried it you can’t have an opinion on it.
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post #56059 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Why bother responding in this thread any longer. He doesn’t even run his subwoofer most of the time per his own admission. Seems to defeat the whole high fidelity argument, cutting out a lot of the low end by having the sub off
I don't always listen at Reference level either.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #56060 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I don't always listen at Reference level either.
You don't need to, your regular MV should be enough (although the demo clips are -10db below so you'd have to compensate for that)

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post #56061 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Yes I know it is said to have such protection but I suspect it may just be for peak excursion, not super long sustained, two and a half minutes+, Saturn V rocket 20Hz (or lower) take off sound. That's a wacky scenario which almost never occurs in most movies and as I explained earlier voice coil safety has an element of "duration of dangerous content" to it.
you're not going to melt a voice coil with that sort of content
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post #56062 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
You know your SVS sub has built in protection to avoid this don't you? You shouldn't be able to damage the sub or VC if you played that scene all day, plus if you have warranty, then surely you safe to as you as you please?

See this vids for example (SB13U).. I've never had excursion like this ever, it's clear he hasn't EQ'd the sub, but regardless it's clearly capable of driving that hard.. the second one actually blows the metal grille off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgmVGTYXolM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVjiOrjQ6oM
I used to have the SB13 and while I don't pay attention to the woofer movement, it would make some kind of mechanical noise if driven too hard.
mine had a magnet grill, not sure if it was hitting that or the mech limits.

however mine was used only for playing movies, not music.

As far as I know there was a time the same sledge amp is used on a PB13 and SB13. Same part number, if it had a HPF on the amp shouldn't there be a difference in the HPF values between the models? That's why I kind of think they don't have one. Question to verify with SVS of course.
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post #56063 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Yes I know it is said to have such protection but I suspect it may just be for peak excursion, not super long sustained, two and a half minutes+, Saturn V rocket 20Hz (or lower) take off sound. That's a wacky scenario which almost never occurs in most movies and as I explained earlier voice coil safety has an element of "duration of dangerous content" to it.
The demo clip is actually the first 5 mins of the movie so no Saturn V launch in there, you'd need to buy the movie to sample that
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post #56064 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
You don't need to, your regular MV should be enough (although the demo clips are -10db below so you'd have to compensate for that)
That's not what I meant. I meant that besides the blasphemy that I don't always use my sub for all content, dues to neighbors, which I agree is not "high fidelity", I also err from correct playback by not listening at Reference level.

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post #56065 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That's not what I meant. I meant that besides the blasphemy that I don't always use my sub for all content, dues to neighbors, which is not "high fidelity", I also err from correct playback by not listening at Reference level.
Doesn't matter, 'high fidelity' actually means hi-fi (ie: 2ch and no sub).. you don't have a 2ch system do you? Just man up and try it

Do a Google search for 'hi-fi systems' and see if any multi channel systems appear

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post #56066 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:38 PM
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"high fidelity

n.
The electronic reproduction of sound, especially from broadcast or recorded sources, with minimal distortion."

Failure to reproduce a frequency range of that content by failing to activate a subwoofer [or use large, full range speakers] is arguably not high fidelity because it introduces a variety of distortion.

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post #56067 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:39 PM
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Hi-fi systems https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=...4dUDCAs&uact=5

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post #56068 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 01:51 PM
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Where have all the moderators gone? Or is it fine that two or three members argue incessantly off topic for page after page?

I remember when this was the official dolby atmos thread home theater version.
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post #56069 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Failure to reproduce a frequency range of that content by failing to activate a subwoofer is not high fidelity because it introduces a variety of distortion.
Which one of us fails to activate a subwoofer? Hi-fi is an abbreviation of high fidelity however you look at it.. You can see what I mean't by obsession in refusing to accept now?.. I just feel sorry for those that subscribe to this thread hoping to see Atmos discussion Sorry people, clearly there's no convincing some people

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post #56070 of 58884 Old 10-06-2019, 02:18 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
"high fidelity



n.

The electronic reproduction of sound, especially from broadcast or recorded sources, with minimal distortion."



Failure to reproduce a frequency range of that content by failing to activate a subwoofer [or use large, full range speakers] is arguably not high fidelity because it introduces a variety of distortion.


Ok mr high fi. So you keep saying high fi is your goal. What steps have you taken to ensure that your experience is sooooo accurate above the subwoofer range? Is your room treated? Are you using studio monitors? Do you sit at a mixing board? I doubt your room is doing any favors.
I ask in this way because it seems like your thumbing your nose at everyone with your big pursuit for high fi. It’s hard to detect over the internet someone’s tone(no pun intended), and what they’re actually saying.
Atmos.(my post now contains atmos discussion lol)
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