The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1870 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56071 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Ok mr high fi. So you keep saying high fi is your goal.
Correct. That's my right and as I've said repeatedly I mean

A. within my budget/room constraints [I guess also neighbor complaint constraints.]

B. I have not not, nor ever have, achieved perfect reproduction; this is simply a goal I strive for

C. YMMV. There's no rule everyone has to have the same goals.
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post #56072 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
And you have designed your system to be dead flat in sound reproduction from 4Hz -20kHz, you aren't using any "house curve" or anything, and there are no transducers. Yes?
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Also what infrasonic mic did you use to achieve this flat room response down to 4Hz when you designed it? Do you have room curves to show us this response taken at the listening chair?

I do


Just my 2 subs. No EQ below 30Hz, and measured with a MiniDSP UMIK-1 calibrated by CSL to 5Hz


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post #56073 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
I do
Then the same question to you: Please follow my video's spoken instructions on how to set your volume and please tell me what's the lowest frequency you hear? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_rFT1UNp7tE
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post #56074 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Then the same question to you: Please follow my video's spoken instructions on how to set your volume and please tell me what's the lowest frequency you hear? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=_rFT1UNp7tE
I'd try it, but your reluctance to try 'our stuff' maybe puts people off from trying 'your stuff'? Maybe richardsim7 might be more forgiving to your requests? But I can see by his FR you're not going to get the answer you're looking for

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post #56075 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
I'd try it, but your reluctance to try 'our stuff' maybe puts people off from trying 'your stuff'? Maybe richardsim7 might be more forgiving to your requests? But I can see by his FR you're not going to get the answer you're looking for


I did...
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post #56076 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 07:12 PM
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Let me know if I'm asking this in the wrong thread.

I've got a pretty decent 5.2 setup, with JBL Studio 590 towers all the way around, including a center behind my 65" Samsung QLED (yes, I know that seems weird, but it works surprisingly well.) Now I want to upgrade to Atmos.

The problem is that my TV has to go in a corner, due to the layout of the room. For 5.2, it works fine, as I'm able to put towers on either side of the TV (along with the one behind the TV) and my surrounds are out to the sides at roughly +/- 80 degrees from center.

I'd like to upgrade to 7.2.4. I can't install in-ceiling speakers for a variety of reasons (it's the family room, and there's another room above, so I can't run wire through an attic, and it would get expensive quick to run wires without it being unacceptable to my wife, who has been surprisingly tolerant of five huge towers in said family room.)

The SVS Prime Elevations look like they would work great for the front top speakers, which I could install roughly over my front L/R. Yes, they'll end up pointed at a point about 3' in front of my TV. But when I watch movies, I pull a single chair to a spot about 6' in front of the TV, so I think it will work fine.

But what about rear top speakers? They'll have to be much further away from each other than the fronts. Will that create a weird distortion in the "sound bubble"? I'd think that sounds panning from top front to top rear would go from very focused to more diffuse. But maybe that's not a problem?
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post #56077 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
But I can see by his FR you're not going to get the answer you're looking for
Microphones can hear 5Hz at 80 dBSPL. Humans can not. [See the attached graphic.]

Although they can often hear all sorts of "tells" there's loud infrasonic sound going on in the room (they just can't sense the infrasound directly), and this can be confusing and cause cognitive bias. These noises include:

- port chuffing (on vented designs) aka "port noise complaint". Get it?,
- upper harmonics of the fundamental (distortion),
- sympathetic vibrations, like objects/dishware/silverware/remotes on the coffee table in the room rattling,
- cord chaffing external,
- cord chaffing internal (woofer cones make just as much sound internally as they do externally, and if that wire to the driver isn't secured and/or wrapped in a tube of spongy foam it can slap against a solid object . . . ),
- motor assembly/voice coil former scraping,
- excursion limit distortion (my colleagues liked to call this "stamping", LOL ) . . .
- changes in the lower audible frequencies being simultaneously reproduced via Doppler distortion
- changes in the lower audible frequencies being simultaneously reproduced via intermodulation distortion
- changes in the lower audible frequencies being simultaneously reproduced via excessive cone motion distortion
- changes in the lower audible frequencies being simultaneously reproduced via driver output compression


https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=h...gif&f=1&nofb=1

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post #56078 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggtuary View Post
But what about rear top speakers? They'll have to be much further away from each other than the fronts. Will that create a weird distortion in the "sound bubble"? I'd think that sounds panning from top front to top rear would go from very focused to more diffuse. But maybe that's not a problem?
It may not be ideal but when you calibrate the added distance is measured and accommodated for in electrical delay differences applied, so I don't think it will be much of a problem.
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post #56079 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Microphones can hear 5Hz at 80 dBSPL. Humans can not....
How many times do you have to be told? Infrasonic sound in movies is felt, not heard.

in·fra·son·ic
/ˌinfrəˈsänik/
adjective
adjective: infrasonic
relating to or denoting sound waves with a frequency below the lower limit of human audibility.
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post #56080 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 08:55 PM
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The first sentence is the one I wish to point out but I'm including the rest for its interesting info:

"Infrasound

The threshold for infrasound is around 140dB at 20Hz increasing to about 162dB at 2 Hz and to 175-180dB for static pressure. Due to the ethical issues regarding testing human subjects, experiments on dogs were conducted at levels of 170dB at a frequency of 0.5 Hz. Curiously the dogs stopped breathing because of lung ventilation due to the high intensity pressure changes, although the 0.5 Hz frequency of the sound acted as an artificial respirator and the dogs showed no ill effects afterwards.Many of the most profound effects of sound are attributed to infrasound in the region of 7Hz. This corresponds with the median alpha-rhythm frequencies of the brain.It is also commonly alleged that this is the resonant frequency of the body’s organs and hence organ rupture and death can occur at high intensity exposures."

Source
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post #56081 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 09:02 PM
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So after who knows how many days since the Home Atmos thread has been seen , the discussion at hand has gone absolutely nowhere!

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post #56082 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
...- sympathetic vibrations, like objects/dishware/silverware/remotes on the coffee table in the room rattling,...
I don't understand your premise. If an earthquake or Saturn V launch occurred near your location, I would expect your dishes would rattle.

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post #56083 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
{Expletives redacted, infraction received willingly} I don't understand your premise. If an earthquake or Saturn V launch occurred near your location, I would expect your dishes would rattle.
I can't find science on the infrasound threshold level of what makes objects rattle in the room, and in my case they are often eating surfaces like spoons, cups, saucers, etc [so there's no way I'm putting Blu-tac or other inedible gluey things on them to hold them down, by the way] but the point is the rattle sounds instructs me there's loud infrasound present from my sub but I don't feel (nor hear) anything other than the dishware rattling. [When it is pure infrasound without any content at ~20Hz and above which is audible, if over threshold]

As for what levels are necessary for humans to sense it directly, here are a bunch of studies overlapped and they all show roughly the same pattern: a really big increase in necessary SPL to invoke human perception as the frequency of the infrasound descends:


https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.ne...-Figure3-1.pnghttps://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...63578d7da2d4c4

There's a problem though that they may be using very different methodologies. For example:

- Some may be performed in an anechoic chamber with zero other sounds whereas others may have typical room rumble (masking sounds obscuring the target sound) present.

- Some may only present the sound to the ears while others to the whole body.

- If it is the whole body, how thick was the clothing? I would think a person wearing a business suit would be less sensitive to a person wearing a light T-shirt, for example.

- Some studies use test tones like sine waves and others use bands of limited range pink noise.

- Was the SPL measured in the room or exactly at the entrance of the ear canal?

- How accurate is the frequency response of their transducers?

- Most of these studies are focused on worker safety, not home theater entertainment

- some aren't asking the "listener" (feeler?) if they are sensing it, instead they are using electrodes sensing bodily functions like eye movement and also disturbances in balance

- some are waiting to see what makes the feeler nauseous . . .

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post #56084 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
So after who knows how many days since the Home Atmos thread has been seen , the discussion at hand has gone absolutely nowhere!
Fair enough. I have started a new thread on infrasound science here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post58653052
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post #56085 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
I did...
You shouldn't waste your time on him, I certainly won't anymore..
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post #56086 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
You shouldn't waste your time on him, I certainly won't anymore..
Actually put downs and insults directed at me being a "waste of time" should be in the other thread if it is about the perception of infrasonic sound. This is an Atmos thread.
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post #56087 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I was trying to say that I believe 4ft is not too close if MLP is that distance from sides and rears.

Someone may have put that many speakers in such a small space but if they give an honest assessment I can’t believe there is any benefit to six ceiling speakers so close together and so close to the LCR. I really don’t see how wides spaced two feet from LCR will provide any benefit at all.

At a total max I would go with 4 Atmos ceiling speakers and no wides... but two spaced further from LCR and rears is bear in my opinion and from my own experience with my room.

The big concern is placing the ceiling speakers too close to LCR. Having wides is not going to degrade the sound field but having front row ceiling speakers too close to LCR or rear ceiling too close to rears will very likely make it seem like the sound is coming from LCR/rears vs Atmos ceiling.


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I have to agree. My space is almost double the op's at 18'x24' and I 've used wides for a decade but with 4 atmos speakers in the ceiling ( my system is 9.2.4 with wides support) I do not miss the wides. I flip back and forth occasionaly using the wides, but I loose the Atmos speaker and feel the sense of space is better with Atmos vs. wides. In a 12x12 space I would think 4 Atmos speakers would be fine.
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post #56088 of 58879 Old 10-06-2019, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggtuary View Post
Let me know if I'm asking this in the wrong thread.

I've got a pretty decent 5.2 setup, with JBL Studio 590 towers all the way around, including a center behind my 65" Samsung QLED (yes, I know that seems weird, but it works surprisingly well.) Now I want to upgrade to Atmos.

The problem is that my TV has to go in a corner, due to the layout of the room. For 5.2, it works fine, as I'm able to put towers on either side of the TV (along with the one behind the TV) and my surrounds are out to the sides at roughly +/- 80 degrees from center.

I'd like to upgrade to 7.2.4. I can't install in-ceiling speakers for a variety of reasons (it's the family room, and there's another room above, so I can't run wire through an attic, and it would get expensive quick to run wires without it being unacceptable to my wife, who has been surprisingly tolerant of five huge towers in said family room.)

The SVS Prime Elevations look like they would work great for the front top speakers, which I could install roughly over my front L/R. Yes, they'll end up pointed at a point about 3' in front of my TV. But when I watch movies, I pull a single chair to a spot about 6' in front of the TV, so I think it will work fine.

But what about rear top speakers? They'll have to be much further away from each other than the fronts. Will that create a weird distortion in the "sound bubble"? I'd think that sounds panning from top front to top rear would go from very focused to more diffuse. But maybe that's not a problem?
You are in the correct thread, it's just been hijacked for a few days by a couple of members who do not know when to quit.

The spacing of the rears may be handled by your AVR depending on whatever sound correction method it uses, it will account for delays if you place the mic in the listening position.
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post #56089 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
On the contrary, Fury (2014), one of the movies @FilmMixer said he worked on actually gained bass/ULF in its UHD Blu-Ray Atmos release.
The good thing is that @FilmMixer shows consistency in his mixes as far as bass content is concerned. Not sure if this observed bass gain could be intentional though, and whether it is an artifact of the re-mix: A 2 dB increased in the 30-60 Hz region will hardly be noticeable, and while an increases of 5 and 10 dB at resp. 20 and 10 Hz are dB are more significant, the resulting SPL levels (50 to 60 dB at reference level) seem still too low to be heard or felt at these frequencies (I think).

Edit: My bad. I have looked at averages, and not at maximum levels in those graphs. The differences remain more or less the same, but the absolute levels at 20 Hz and 10 Hz put those frequencies in the audible resp. tactile range. This suggests a intentional alteration, and not an artifact.

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post #56090 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Large rooms like commercial theaters don't have room gain.
False.



[Toole]





This mistaken belief explains why much of what you've been saying is incorrect.
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post #56091 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The good thing is that @FilmMixer shows consistency in his mixes as far as bass content is concerned. Not sure if this observed bass gain could be intentional though, and whether it is an artifact of the re-mix: A 2 dB increased in the 30-60 Hz region will hardly be noticeable, and while an increases of 5 and 10 dB at resp. 20 and 10 Hz are dB are more significant, the resulting SPL levels (50 to 60 dB at reference level) seem still too low to be heard or felt at these frequencies (I think).

mm I think you might be misreading the graphs, as I understand it -10 is basically max SPL so 20Hz on the Atmos mix is about 113dB at reference
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Originally Posted by richardsim7 View Post
mm I think you might be misreading the graphs, as I understand it -10 is basically max SPL so 20Hz on the Atmos mix is about 113dB at reference
Which graphs are you referring to? I was looking at the graphs you posted, and I do not see a -10 dB but a -50 and -45 dB at 20 Hz ...

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post #56093 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Which graphs are you referring to? I was looking at the graphs you posted, and I do not see a -10 dB but a -50 and -45 dB at 20 Hz ...
For the Atmos release the average is about in the -45 dB and the peak is at about -12 dB at 20 Hz.
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post #56094 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
False.
...

This mistaken belief explains why much of what you've been saying is incorrect.
Perhaps you missed it. We have a new thread splintered off from this one for this topic since it is only peripherally related to Dolby Atmos. Would you like to repost in the correct thread or should I address your error here, backed with a reference to Toole himself?

"Fig. 11(b) shows an informative superimposition of all
50 front loudspeakers in the 18 cinemas ["typical 500 seat cinemas"].
These curves show the spectra of the direct sound in these venues, revealing
just how varied the playback of film sound is across a selec-
tion of loudspeakers and venues. They basically fill in the
shaded area of possibilities shown in Fig. 7(b). There was
no information about the loudspeakers. The lower boundary
is the two-woofer sound power prediction from Fig. 7(c),
identified as the “completely reflective cinema,” implying
that there is little additional “gain” associated with these
rooms, mainly losses due to absorption.
"

"The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems" - Toole, J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 63, No. 7/8, 2015 July/August

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post #56095 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Perhaps you missed it. We have a new thread splintered off from this one for this topic since it is only peripherally related to Dolby Atmos. Would you like to repost in the correct thread or should I address your error here, backed with a reference to Toole himself?
I see, you post 100 posts of nonsense in this thread, when I post once on the subject I'm told to post it somewhere else without even providing a link so the new thread can be found.


The quotation you gave is addressing a different figure, one that does not directly speak to the false statement you made. The figure I posted (known speakers known to have a flat, direct response showing room gain in cinemas) does, in fact, show your statement to be false.



In the new thread, do you explain away this figure?





You are advocating for (c). Toole is advocating AGAINST it.



Are you standing on your head and reading this paper upside down? That's the only way I can fathom your belief that it reinforces your point of view, when in fact, Dr. Toole is directly advocating against it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
For the Atmos release the average is about in the -45 dB and the peak is at about -12 dB at 20 Hz.
Thank you. I have edited my earlier post accordingly.

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post #56097 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
I see, you post 100 posts of nonsense in this thread, when I post once on the subject I'm told to post it somewhere else without even providing a link so the new thread can be found..
I did not tell you to post elsewhere, I asked if you'd like to or if I should just address it here.

I have added a link in that post since you seem to have read my other "99 posts of nonsense" but not number 100 where I provided a link.

And also I duplicate it here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post58653052
---

As I understand it, large venue commercial cinemas ["500 seat" variety] may exhibit things like room boundary reinforcement but not the PVG component of "room gain". Also the "leaky" nature of even many smaller rooms, where we might indeed expect it at least theoretically, it is often not as much as is calculated. It depends on how well sealed the room is and perhaps how stiff and non-flexing the walls/ceiling/floor are.

Perhaps @Floyd Toole can clarify this matter for us?

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post #56098 of 58879 Old 10-07-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Perhaps @Floyd Toole can clarify this matter for us?
That paper is pretty comprehensive, all you need to do is read it. Even just looking at the two charts I posted should be enough--actual measurements and average/estimated in-room responses. The middle line of 5 (b) is the steady state response you can expect in a "typically reflective cinema" when the speakers are calibrated to a flat, direct response. If you instead, as you suggest, calibrate to a flat steady state in-room response, the "consequence" is 5 (c), a direct sound with the bass sucked out of it to some degree. Floyd's whole argument throughout the paper is that is certainly not "Hi-Fi."
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post #56099 of 58879 Old 10-08-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Once again: No thanks, it is not for me and my pursuit of high fidelity, especially now that I have evidence it creates a 5dB error at 20Hz according to my First Man measurements at least, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets even worse below that. YMMV.
I've seen you make this statement several times now, but your not comparing apples to apples. The finished movie is BEQ'd and most agree it sounds great and is certainly entertaining. That bonus scene hasn't been BEQ'd and we are just assuming it's pure w/o filtering or editing and we just don't know that. The scene clearly didn't go through the same process that the movie did, but we don't know what it did go through, so we can't compare graphs made for 1 process with another.

For me, I have to believe that the director wants his movie to sound at it's absolute best. So for me, if they know about BEQ; they are watching their movies with Aaron's BEQs and wishing the studios would just let them make them that way to begin with. But again, we don't know. We do know that several high ranking directors have been outspoken with their disdain for the theatrical equipment available to them. It wouldn't surprise me if many lower level directors feel the same way, but won't say that in front of the microphones. They can't all just go start their own studios if execs take offense. Again we don't know, but I have to believe they want their movies to sound the best they can and we should all be able to agree on that.
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Audio: Denon AVR-X6500H 7.1.4 Atmos
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post #56100 of 58879 Old 10-08-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by searsmd View Post
I've seen you make this statement several times now, but your not comparing apples to apples. The finished movie is BEQ'd and most agree it sounds great and is certainly entertaining. That bonus scene hasn't been BEQ'd and we are just assuming it's pure w/o filtering or editing and we just don't know that. The scene clearly didn't go through the same process that the movie did, but we don't know what it did go through, so we can't compare graphs made for 1 process with another.

For me, I have to believe that the director wants his movie to sound at it's absolute best. So for me, if they know about BEQ; they are watching their movies with Aaron's BEQs and wishing the studios would just let them make them that way to begin with. But again, we don't know. We do know that several high ranking directors have been outspoken with their disdain for the theatrical equipment available to them. It wouldn't surprise me if many lower level directors feel the same way, but won't say that in front of the microphones. They can't all just go start their own studios if execs take offense. Again we don't know, but I have to believe they want their movies to sound the best they can and we should all be able to agree on that.
Discussion if the creators intend their movies to be listened to with discernible infrasonic [<20Hz] content, if their studio production facilities even had infrasonic monitoring capability above threshold or not to experience said content [Likely not in my opinion.], and if the infrasonic range of content found on the disc at a low, inaudible level is truly that content they supposedly "meant" for us to hear/experience, rather than a mixture of things including various forms of infrasonic noise such as plosives, anthropogenic noise, etc., intentionally filtered out for a wide variety of reasons including that it is detrimental to the higher, 20Hz and above audible range and in some instances possibly even harmful to some playback gear, is best addressed in the new thread I splintered off from this discussion earlier, dedicated to infrasonics, in my opinion, since several Atmos people complained it is off topic here.

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