The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1871 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56101 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
If you haven’t tried it you can’t have an opinion on it.
Of course you can have an opinion, as I said in my previous post.
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post #56102 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I was trying to say that I believe 4ft is not too close if MLP is that distance from sides and rears.

Someone may have put that many speakers in such a small space but if they give an honest assessment I can’t believe there is any benefit to six ceiling speakers so close together and so close to the LCR. I really don’t see how wides spaced two feet from LCR will provide any benefit at all.

At a total max I would go with 4 Atmos ceiling speakers and no wides... but two spaced further from LCR and rears is bear in my opinion and from my own experience with my room.

The big concern is placing the ceiling speakers too close to LCR. Having wides is not going to degrade the sound field but having front row ceiling speakers too close to LCR or rear ceiling too close to rears will very likely make it seem like the sound is coming from LCR/rears vs Atmos ceiling.


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Thanks.

The distances of the speakers that I mentioned were from the main listening position, not how far they are from each other. The 5 ft distance from the front wides is a diagonal line from the center of the listening position to the speakers. If you want to know the distance of the speakers from each other, the front wides will be 3 ft from the LCR which are 3 ft from the side surrounds which are 3 ft from the rear surrounds. Do you still think they will be too close for 9.1.6 vs. 7.1.4?

Also, in Dolby's 9.1.6 layout diagram, they have the rear overhead speakers right over the rear surrounds.
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post #56103 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

The distances of the speakers that I mentioned were from the main listening position, not how far they are from each other. The 5 ft distance from the front wides is a diagonal line from the center of the listening position to the speakers. If you want to know the distance of the speakers from each other, the front wides will be 3 ft from the LCR which are 3 ft from the side surrounds which are 3 ft from the rear surrounds. Do you still think they will be too close for 9.1.6 vs. 7.1.4?

Also, in Dolby's 9.1.6 layout diagram, they have the rear overhead speakers right over the rear surrounds.
My opinion is that you will not get any benefit from the wides and they may be distracting visually since they will likely be very visible while watching movies/tv. I would also still go with one set of Atmos ceiling speakers.

The goal of Atmos is to create a hemisphere of sound around the listening position but you also need separation of speakers. That is why you want the "bed" speakers (LCR, surround and rears) just at or slightly above ear level with one row of seating to allow for differentiation from the ceiling Atmos. Go sit in your room and visualize all the speakers and think about them creating a sound hemisphere. Due to reflections I am certain that you do not need wides and 99% sure that you do not need more than one row of ceiling speakers since they will start to interfere with rears and LCR.

You can always wire for wides and if you think you are missing something (you won't) you can add them later. For Atmos Ceiling speakers I would mount them one foot in front of your ears as my experience has been that this position provides the best directional cues and if you mount them 3-4 ft in front of your ears sound will appear to come from your LCR due to reflections (in your size room).

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post #56104 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 06:07 PM
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What are the angular separations between the fronts and wides, and between wides and surrounds?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
The distances of the speakers that I mentioned were from the main listening position, not how far they are from each other. The 5 ft distance from the front wides is a diagonal line from the center of the listening position to the speakers. If you want to know the distance of the speakers from each other, the front wides will be 3 ft from the LCR which are 3 ft from the side surrounds which are 3 ft from the rear surrounds. Do you still think they will be too close for 9.1.6 vs. 7.1.4?
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post #56105 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 08:43 PM
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Just realizing how common it is for people to "upmix" 5.1 content into Atmos. Anyone happen to know if my Onkyo TX-NR646 is worthy of attempting this? Here are the Onkyo TX-NR646 modes:

AllCh Stereo
Direct
Dolby Atmos
Dolby D (Dolby Digital)
Dolby D+ (Dolby Digital Plus)
Dolby Surround
Dolby TrueHD
DSD
DTS
DTS 96/24
DTS Express
DTS-HD HR (DTS-HD High Resolution Audio)
DTS-HD MSTR (DTS-HD Master Audio)
DTS Neo:6
DTS Neural:X
DTS:X
ES Discrete (DTS-ES Discrete)
ES Matrix (DTS-ES Matrix)
Full Mono
Game-Action
Game-Rock
Game-RPG
Game-Sports
Mono
Multich (Multichannel)
Orchestra
Pure Audio (European, Australian and Asian models)
Stereo
Studio-Mix
T-D (Theater-Dimensional)
TV Logic
Unplugged

Should I force one of those when listening to 5.1 (DD or DTS) content?
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post #56106 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ergalthema View Post
Just realizing how common it is for people to "upmix" 5.1 content into Atmos. Anyone happen to know if my Onkyo TX-NR646 is worthy of attempting this? Here are the Onkyo TX-NR646 modes:



AllCh Stereo

Direct

Dolby Atmos

Dolby D (Dolby Digital)

Dolby D+ (Dolby Digital Plus)

Dolby Surround

Dolby TrueHD

DSD

DTS

DTS 96/24

DTS Express

DTS-HD HR (DTS-HD High Resolution Audio)

DTS-HD MSTR (DTS-HD Master Audio)

DTS Neo:6

DTS Neural:X

DTS:X

ES Discrete (DTS-ES Discrete)

ES Matrix (DTS-ES Matrix)

Full Mono

Game-Action

Game-Rock

Game-RPG

Game-Sports

Mono

Multich (Multichannel)

Orchestra

Pure Audio (European, Australian and Asian models)

Stereo

Studio-Mix

T-D (Theater-Dimensional)

TV Logic

Unplugged



Should I force one of those when listening to 5.1 (DD or DTS) content?


Yes. Dolby surround(DSU) or dts nueralx are great. Sometimes as good as a real atmos/dtsx track. Assuming of course you have the speakers for it.
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post #56107 of 58892 Old 10-08-2019, 11:44 PM
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I am using Neural X for non-atmos content and I finally got around to painting out my in ceiling speakers yesterday and was surprised how much content was directed to them. At a normal seating distance the sound just seems to envelope me, but up close I was very aware of how much sound they are putting out.
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post #56108 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L View Post
I am using Neural X for non-atmos content and I finally got around to painting out my in ceiling speakers yesterday and was surprised how much content was directed to them. At a normal seating distance the sound just seems to envelope me, but up close I was very aware of how much sound they are putting out.
Yup, the Neural:X upmixer is more aggressive than DSU - sometimes TOO aggressive (puts sounds on the height plane where they do not belong). But otherwise, it is fine and anyway, its a matter of taste.
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post #56109 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 03:35 AM
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Just a short statement from my side to this BEQ discussion as a sound engineer. Usually and for stereo recordings you cut off all frequencies below 50 Hz because they cause unwanted low frequency noise which is not wanted in a mix. On many mixing consoles you find a button per channel for a HPF at this frequency mentioned.

This might be different with an LFE channel - think of what that stands for: Low Frequency Effects. This might be ok for some EFFECTS purposes but not for other channels. In my opinion a quite academic discussion.
Just my 2 cents...


For the up-mixer discussion, if you have the chance, try the Auromatic. You don't need the Auro 3D layout for this, it also works with an Atmos layout. This sounds best for me and gives the best results.

Now it's my 5 cents...
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post #56110 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
If you haven’t tried it you can’t have an opinion on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Of course you can have an opinion, as I said in my previous post.
Certainly not a valid one.. How many people have an opinion on a film they've never seen? or a song they've never heard? I've never swam with sharks so I wouldn't go guessing what their experience was like.. Just because you drive a car, you wouldn't tell a Formula One driver he drives it incorrectly and/or attempt to give advise would you? It's a bit like a console gamer telling a War Veteran how close to realism they think their game of Battlefield is.. They'd just laugh.. Same applies with BEQ

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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
What are the angular separations between the fronts and wides, and between wides and surrounds?

His room is 12ft long and about as wide so not much room for wides but especially not enough “room” for multiple rows of Atmos ceiling (top) speakers.


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post #56112 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Yup, the Neural:X upmixer is more aggressive than DSU - sometimes TOO aggressive (puts sounds on the height plane where they do not belong). But otherwise, it is fine and anyway, its a matter of taste.


I have a Marantz 7704 - it seems to default to Neural:X. How can I switch it to DSU?
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post #56113 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 05:51 AM
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I have a Marantz 7704 - it seems to default to Neural:X. How can I switch it to DSU?
IR Remote - Sound Mode group - Movie button - until you select the desired combination
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post #56114 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
I have a Marantz 7704 - it seems to default to Neural:X. How can I switch it to DSU?



Should look something like this. When you press it, you’ll have a few choices on screen. Scroll up/down, or keep pressing “movie” until you get what you want.
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post #56115 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post

Should look something like this. When you press it, you’ll have a few choices on screen. Scroll up/down, or keep pressing “movie” until you get what you want.


Thanks Everyone!
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Thanks Everyone!


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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
IR Remote - Sound Mode group - Movie button - until you select the desired combination


Thanks!
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post #56118 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
Certainly not a valid one..
He disagrees with the idea of BEQ on principle. Therefore, he doesn't need to experience it in order to have an opinion. It's not personal. He just doesn't want the content altered in any way.

FWIW, I'm with the BEQ folks. If the content is there on disk, I'm perfectly fine with trying to reverse engineer it back in. Especially when the subjective experience is much improved.
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post #56119 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by liverpool_for_life View Post
He disagrees with the idea of BEQ on principle. Therefore, he doesn't need to experience it in order to have an opinion. It's not personal. He just doesn't want the content altered in any way.
You are partly correct, but I have nothing against faithful art restoration to what I believe the artist intended, as I understand it. But since this is not Atmos related I responded in greater detail in the Infrasound science thread.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Usually and for stereo recordings you cut off all frequencies below 50 Hz because they cause unwanted low frequency noise which is not wanted in a mix.

Seriously, 50 Hz?

Sounds like inadequate gear if it can't deal with musical fundamentals, i.e. bass and bass guitar ~40 Hz, lowest piano note 27.5 Hz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
His room is 12ft long and about as wide so not much room for wides but especially not enough “room” for multiple rows of Atmos ceiling (top) speakers.

Those dimensions don't necessarily preclude wides; my room is 12' wide and my Wides nicely expand the front soundfield.
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post #56121 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 12:24 PM
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You are partly correct, but I have nothing against faithful art restoration to what I believe the artist intended, as I understand it. But since this is not Atmos related I responded in greater detail in the Infrasound science thread.
Fixed it for you. Your opinion is no different than the BEQ gang's, you just go the other way with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
.



Those dimensions don't necessarily preclude wides; my room is 12' wide and my Wides nicely expand the front soundfield.

It’s not the width but his depth of around 12’ That puts wides at only 3’ from his face. Seems like overkill to me but if it improves the sound then great.

I just don’t want speakers pointed at my face only 3’ away. Maybe they can be hidden behind fabric.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
It’s not the width but his depth of around 12’ That puts wides at only 3’ from his face.

If they're properly located at around 60 deg azimuth, they'll be mostly to the sides in the peripheral field of view.

Would definitely be problematic for non-centered listener though.

My wides are Mirage Omnipolar which are hard to localize because of the high ratio of reflected to direct sound, so not an issue.

If I had conventional speakers, I'd try pointing them upward.
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post #56124 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Seriously, 50 Hz?

Sounds like inadequate gear if it can't deal with musical fundamentals, i.e. bass and bass guitar ~40 Hz, lowest piano note 27.5 Hz.


As I already wrote, if you had been doing this by yourself you would know, that the people doing this professional have a completely different point of view and these low frequencies are better avoided. That what you experience as bass is in higher frequencies than 50 Hz. It is more between 60 and 100 Hz more broad speaking. If you look at the tables shown before a signal this low consumes a lot of energy and this is the reason why a subwoofer needs a lot of Watts to make a good subwoofer. And aren't you cutting off the surrounds and LCR usually at around 80 Hz or even higher.

Analyze music and you will see, there is not very much going on this low under 50 Hz. This is definitely not inadequate gear, this is it maybe from the POV of an audiophile but not from the POV of a sound engineer. We are talking about studio equipment here and these low frequencies are considered 'rumble' and should be avoided at all cost. Ask filmmixer if you like. You see this from a different point of view, which has nothing to do with reality of music production.



This does not apply to the LFE where these low frequencies are wanted. Don't misunderstand me here please.


Also, hearing full dynamics is the exception. All channels are sent through limters and compressors today. Sounds presumably better, but not my style. I love full dynamics. Using this kind of gear is the absolute exception for me but everybody likes them today. Also, mixes are compared from the studio with thousands, sometimes millions of dollars of equipment to the car stereo to mobile phones. This is a requirement from those people paying the money, to sound everywhere good. Personally, I don't like this approach.

I want to do the best mix and don't care about kitchen radios or car stereos. But again, I am the absolute exception in this sense.



Just to tell you some bit of background information, what is done and what are the constraints of mixes and why the result is sometimes not exactly according the academic and audiophiles believe and much different from people from the outside and non-professionals see this.


Just for your information.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
...And aren't you cutting off the surrounds and LCR usually at around 80 Hz or even higher.
That's a totally different subject, and part of bass management. Below 80 Hz is not cut off, it is crossed over and the lows are sent to the subwoofer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulst View Post
Certainly not a valid one..

[...]

Everyone can have an opinion on any subject in the world, but it's only a valid one if you've sampled it for yourself (IMO)
I'm glad for the smiley because it shows where we agree. This is more about meta-opinions, I think?

In my (meta)opinion, one can have an opinion without sampling for yourself. This is why I used my parachuting analogy, which I tried, unsuccessfully, to point you to. I know I won't like parachuting without "needing to try it for myself". This is based on knowing myself, knowing about the science of what will happen to my body and mental state (won't be good), and extrapolating very accurately. Therefore, the more people chant "just try it" and "your dislike of parachuting is invalid because you haven't tried it", the more it irks me. .

Reductio ad absurdum: "I don't want to eat poison because I know it will kill me". "Not valid until you've tried it!"

In your (meta)opinion, one cannot have an opinion without sampling for yourself. You used the movie criticism analogy with which I completely agree (except with Adam Sandler movies, I don't need to see any more to know* they are going to be completely without merit ), but I would just say I'm not fully sold on how it maps onto this subject. But I'm glad we can disagree respectfully at least




*ok, there's a small chance, and that's a bit of a joke as an example.
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post #56127 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 02:43 PM
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That's a totally different subject, and part of bass management. Below 80 Hz is not cut off, it is crossed over and the lows are sent to the subwoofer.

Not really if you think of the capacity and the frequency range of the speakers and if you think WHY this is done at all.
It is to protect satellite speakers of draining too much power in the low frequency range and give this range to specialized speakers having - thinking of main stream AVRs - much less power than a typical subwoofer.



Just think about it from a different perspective and you will see, it makes absolutely sense. Sure, it is Bass Management but why is there Bass Management in the first place?
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post #56128 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
In your (meta)opinion, one cannot have an opinion without sampling for yourself. You used the movie criticism analogy with which I completely agree (except with Adam Sandler movies, I don't need to see any more to know* they are going to be completely without merit ), but I would just say I'm not fully sold on how it maps onto this subject. But I'm glad we can disagree respectfully at least

*ok, there's a small chance, and that's a bit of a joke as an example.
I like your style In agreement with the Adam Sandler movies (although I'm still quite partial to Happy Gilmour and The Longest Yard) but that's where it ends for me But if there's even the tiniest chance you're in agreement then it should be something worth considering if you like 'real bass' and not that weak crappy bass you're getting from most of the disks
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post #56129 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Analyze music and you will see, there is not very much going on this low under 50 Hz. This is definitely not inadequate gear, this is it maybe from the POV of an audiophile but not from the POV of a sound engineer. We are talking about studio equipment here and these low frequencies are considered 'rumble' and should be avoided at all cost. Ask filmmixer if you like. You see this from a different point of view, which has nothing to do with reality of music production.

There may not be a lot, but it's there.

I thought rumble referred to spurious LF content; is the problem traffic, HVAC noise etc getting through to the studio?

I can understand that film mixers can get away with HP filtering as you described, because voices don't go that low, and LF effects are not recorded w/mic's but added synthetically anyway.

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post #56130 of 58892 Old 10-09-2019, 05:26 PM
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OMG, I can't f'ing believe this BEQ discussion is still going on.

I've read literally every single post in this Atmos thread, going back over FIVE YEARS, until the last few days. I just skimmed over a few pages of BEQ BLAH BLAH BLAH and it's STILL happening. A few of you are ruining this thread for your own petty arguments about the merits of BEQ.

CAN WE PLEASE PUT THIS TO BED AND TAKE IT TO THE BEQ THREAD. PLEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAASSSSEEEEEE

That poor guy who tried to ask an actual Atmos question has to wade through dozens of posts that have nothing to do with Atmos. And, yes, I understand that some of the tracks under discussion are Atmos tracks, BUT IT IS STILL NOT AN ATMOS ISSUE. IT IS A MIXING ISSUE.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, KILL THIS DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD AND TAKE IT ELSEWHERE.

I'm going to start aggressively reporting posts to mods if this doesn't cease. Enough is enough. It's been like a week of this. ENOUGH.

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