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post #57631 of 58861 Old 02-11-2020, 04:08 PM
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Hey check out these Dolby Atmos setup videos for Xbox One.
Discovered that 2 receivers can be connected to get 5.1.4 or 5.1.6 setups.
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post #57632 of 58861 Old 02-11-2020, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
AFAIK, the 4 main surrounds (Sides, Rears) are prerequisites for adding numbered surrounds (S1, S2, RS1, RS2). See chart below:

Thanks Sanjay, a little confusing at first. Ls1 and Ls2 are dependant on Lrs, but Lrs is dependant on Ls so dependance is inherited. I'll be putting in a question to Trinnov to see if their code line still has this dependency (probably does) but if not I'll post here just as an FYI.
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post #57633 of 58861 Old 02-11-2020, 08:49 PM
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After reading some more about the DTS:X Pro "Bottom" channels, which were apparently an outgrowth of a discovery using regular DTS music albums with speakers that went from the floor up (think line source behavior) and that the DTS:X Pro "bottom" channels are just copies of L/C/R mains, I decided to do some testing by moving my front wide speakers next to my L/R mains and turn them upside down (tweeter near floor) and then in combination with front heights "dialog lift" the stereo mode would be low, medium and high copies of itself. I figured this should reveal any HRTF related effects with various material.

I tried out DTS Music discs, 2-channel music discs, a binaural album and a whole bunch of Dolby Atmos an DTS:X demos and a few movie clips.

Conclusions:

- Very little difference with most DTS material I tried. I think I heard a few sounds a bit lower here and there, but they usually imaged lower even without the extra speakers (i.e. shutting them off to compare). More appeared lower using regular DTS decoding than Neural X and I'm guessing this is because Neural X has this tendency to want to lift large parts of the music sound stage overhead so any lower effects get pulled up to mid-level. With regular DTS decoding, you get bottom and middle with occasional higher effects from HRTF clues.

- Very little noticeable difference with the movie clips I tried (but they're far from conclusive as I just didn't have time to compare many).

-Binaural albums were not helped one way or another, IMO. If anything, they do best with surround speakers in a circle enabled (i.e. 5.1 or 7.1 bed only).

- 2-Channel music was a different story altogether. Loads of albums had content below ear level in 2-channel mode (and above as well as I had 3 layers of speakers running copies, bottom, ear level and front heights). One of the most impressive sounding (which was already impressive for 2-channel surround effects) was Billy Idol's Cyberpunk album. That album can do 90+ degree surround effects with 2 speakers alone. Throw in the extra bottom and top height channels and sounds were all over the place in the room! The down side is that "some" albums sounded a little fuzzier than before (e.g. Tori Amos' Scarlet's Walk) that uses some non-standard vocals to begin with. Many albums (e.g. Most Billy Joel albums) sounded pretty much the same as they did.

- Albums like Roger Waters' Amused To Death that already use Q-Sound seemed to be unaffected. I heard nothing different either way.


Overall Conclusion:

2-channel stereo albums are very interesting like that (kind of similar to my Carver dipole ribbon line-sources if they started lower to the ground, I think as they tend to image from just below ear level to near ceiling height depending on the material). Basically, the extra speakers are just giving some extra length to the starting points, I think. Theoretically, you should be able to get lower/higher sound with DTS music albums. Perhaps I simply had the wrong ones? Most tracks I heard had more going on in the surround areas than the front channels. It'd be interesting to hear low/mid drivers in the surround positions to see if the overall sound stage when from floor to ceiling. With just the front, these albums had very little to work with when they move at least half the sounds into the surround tracks.

I think if you've got the room and the Trinnov processor to make it even easier to set up, adding bottom speakers could contribute to the overall soundstage some of the time. I don't know if the new Neural X does anything additional or not in support of those speakers, but I'm guessing from the posts above that the initial discovery worked with regular DTS decoding and thus it really is more of a HRTF effect that gets more breathing room with taller speakers (in both directions). Bob Carver's new 8-foot floor to ceiling "Amazing" ribbon speaker would probably be ideal for this sort of effect naturally.


3.1.2 Tested:

While I was at it, I recall being told front height couldn't do ceiling effects on its own and I realized I could test this quite easily. So I ran the Atmos demos in 3.1.2 configuration and also ran Flatliners Atmos from iTunes which has crazy overhead ceiling voices at just past 1:30 into it.

The results were surprising even to me. I was expecting to be able to tell mid from high sounds as I've tested that before briefly. But what was really surprising is that sounds could come out from the speakers up to about 60% of the way to the first row (38% into the room) or about halfway between the front heights and top middle speakers. While I was listening to Billy Idol and some other albums above for the bottom speaker test, it reminded me that regular stereo speakers can image up to around 90-100 degrees all on their own with the side walls not too far away (Cyberpunk certainly puts sounds and voices at 90 degrees to my left and right without any surround speakers) so it appears that front heights can do something similar with out-of-phase material). Flatliners sounded more like 5.1.4 does overhead than some flat soundstage with some voices making it at least 60% of the way to my seat on the ceiling with only 2 front heights active even with the screen! Even the helicopter demo managed to come 1/3 the way out with only two speakers. The same was true with just stereo and the helicopter demo. The out-of-phase effects pull the sound out to the sides part way into the room.

Add the other four speakers back in and the voices go in a giant circle at the start around the room (kind of like a voice helicopter and then move in all kinds of patterns across the ceiling. With only 2 speakers, it's just much shorter, but still on the ceiling to the top of the screen. So much for the notion that using ONLY two front heights can't put sounds on the ceiling. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

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post #57634 of 58861 Old 02-11-2020, 11:34 PM
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The entire "Ford V Ferrari" ending race is really a reference ATMOS demo. Dethroned Ready Player One.
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post #57635 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dead Chain View Post
Discovered that 2 receivers can be connected to get 5.1.4 or 5.1.6 setups.
Some of us discovered that 4 years ago, it works great: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ive-audio.html
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post #57636 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The entire "Ford V Ferrari" ending race is really a reference ATMOS demo. Dethroned Ready Player One.
Dethroned it from what? I don't recall RP1 being reference to begin with. Well above average, yes.

For a quick sheer overhead demo, I've found nothing better than Flatliners (2017) in Atmos (iTunes) or Auro-3D (BD). 2 minutes of constant moving voices on the ceiling only 1:30 into the movie.

Sheer everything? Jumanji (original) and Fury (Brad Pitt) stick out in my mind the most on Atmos (Overlord was also great). Crimson Peak and Harry Potter for DTS:X.

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post #57637 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The entire "Ford V Ferrari" ending race is really a reference ATMOS demo. Dethroned Ready Player One.

I think Trinnov owners will need to analyze this to see if it's loud, bassy, and if there is more to it than just another 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 effort by Disney. Sometimes you can be fooled, especially if you don't have a >7.1.4 setup.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #57638 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The entire "Ford V Ferrari" ending race is really a reference ATMOS demo. Dethroned Ready Player One.
This was a well deserved Oscar for Sound Editing. All the car sounds were added in post, as the car used in the film didn't have the same engine. They hunted for an exotic race car to record to use in the film. It's brilliant work.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/fo...ns-1202208518/
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post #57639 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
The entire "Ford V Ferrari" ending race is really a reference ATMOS demo. Dethroned Ready Player One.
What sounds go the heights? I don't want to hear cars over my head.

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post #57640 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 10:51 AM
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Hi guys,
I posted this on the Speaker Section but figured may get more answers in here. I know, i know, i should have paid attention in school but here it is ...I am trying to calculate dolby atmos locations on a 7.1.2 and not sure if my math is correct. Ear to ceiling is 40" and looking at a placing the speakers at 80 degree angle based on Dolby. My math says I need to place the speakers at 7" ahead of me. Does that sound right?? Thank you in advance guys.

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post #57641 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
What sounds go the heights? I don't want to hear cars over my head.
I’ll watch today or tomorrow with the Altitude and its Input Meters and see what can be heard with the solo channeling too...

@Dan Hitchman : I’ve already seen enough to know this isn’t strictly 7.1.2 or 7.1.4. Stay tuned for some specifics on that final scene.
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post #57642 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 10:58 AM
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What sounds go the heights? I don't want to hear cars over my head.
I would assume (if done logically) the heights would carry ambient reverb from crowd noise, PA announcements, car engines, etc. to enhance the sense of space and "being there" for the race.
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post #57643 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Some of us discovered that 4 years ago, it works great: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ive-audio.html
Yes, I see, but with Dolby Atmos on the Xbox One its a little tricky, the article you showed doesn't describe the Xbox One setup at all.
Xbox One S, will not allow the 2 receivers to pick Atmos as is, with the sets I gave it won't work.
Anyways, how come my videos are only available when logged into the forums?
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post #57644 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 06:44 PM
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Meant to say without the setup I gave. It won't work.
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post #57645 of 58861 Old 02-12-2020, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I don't want to hear cars over my head.
You won't!

It is a very, very well done Atmos soundtrack.
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post #57646 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by doni01 View Post
Hi guys,
I posted this on the Speaker Section but figured may get more answers in here. I know, i know, i should have paid attention in school but here it is ...I am trying to calculate dolby atmos locations on a 7.1.2 and not sure if my math is correct. Ear to ceiling is 40" and looking at a placing the speakers at 80 degree angle based on Dolby. My math says I need to place the speakers at 7" ahead of me. Does that sound right?? Thank you in advance guys.

Yes, your math is correct. You can use the calculator below to confirm:



Right Triangle Angle And Side Calculator
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post #57647 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Yes, your math is correct. You can use the calculator below to confirm:



Right Triangle Angle And Side Calculator
Thank you sir!!
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post #57648 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 08:51 AM
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New to Atmos

Hi all, I'm just beginning to explore the possibility of upgrading my home theater to an Atmos system. Given my current space it would have to be a 5.1.2 system and I had a question I haven't been able to find an answer to. Hoping those of you with real world experience with Atmos systems will be able to provide some insight.

So, I'm in the unfortunate position of not being able to physically install height speakers in the ceiling or walls. I can't drill into anything. However, I do have two bookshelves on either side of my TV that are roughly 7 feet off the floor. I currently have a 5.1 system and my front surrounds are positioned at about 4 feet high. I was thinking I could get two more bookshelf speakers and position them on the tops of the bookshelves. Another potential issue is that the bookshelves aren't exactly the same height. One of them is roughly 4 inches taller. I'm assuming the speaker calibration/audio eq software in any modern day AVR can correct for these discrepancies?

Sorry if this is confusing (it's all pretty confusing to me as a total novice), but I guess my questions are: 1) if I can only position my height speakers 7 feet off the ground, is it even worth having a height channel? 2) is it okay to have the height speakers at slightly different heights? Now, one caveat -- I am in no way an audio purist. I don't need this system to be perfect right now, just workable in my current home theater situation. And honestly, I just want to be able to play around with Atmos as so many movies and streaming services are now using it. As long as the sound is robust and layered, I'll be happy.

Thanks in advance!
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post #57649 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 09:10 AM
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My ceiling is only 8.5', so I'd say yes, a 7' stand is acceptable (figure the speakers are likely to be over a foot also). With only two, I'd go for the sides perhaps just in front of the seating location or over the side speakers).

EQ won't really correct for height differences, but you're unlikely to notice a 4" difference. You could always put a 4" book or something under the shorter one if it really bothers you.

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post #57650 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ran1283 View Post
Hi all, I'm just beginning to explore the possibility of upgrading my home theater to an Atmos system. Given my current space it would have to be a 5.1.2 system and I had a question I haven't been able to find an answer to. Hoping those of you with real world experience with Atmos systems will be able to provide some insight.



So, I'm in the unfortunate position of not being able to physically install height speakers in the ceiling or walls. I can't drill into anything. However, I do have two bookshelves on either side of my TV that are roughly 7 feet off the floor. I currently have a 5.1 system and my front surrounds are positioned at about 4 feet high. I was thinking I could get two more bookshelf speakers and position them on the tops of the bookshelves. Another potential issue is that the bookshelves aren't exactly the same height. One of them is roughly 4 inches taller. I'm assuming the speaker calibration/audio eq software in any modern day AVR can correct for these discrepancies?



Sorry if this is confusing (it's all pretty confusing to me as a total novice), but I guess my questions are: 1) if I can only position my height speakers 7 feet off the ground, is it even worth having a height channel? 2) is it okay to have the height speakers at slightly different heights? Now, one caveat -- I am in no way an audio purist. I don't need this system to be perfect right now, just workable in my current home theater situation. And honestly, I just want to be able to play around with Atmos as so many movies and streaming services are now using it. As long as the sound is robust and layered, I'll be happy.



Thanks in advance!
https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation

I have four of these mounted on the sidewalls at ceiling height. They provide intense Atmos effects. They could be a solution.

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post #57651 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I would assume (if done logically) the heights would carry ambient reverb from crowd noise, PA announcements, car engines, etc. to enhance the sense of space and "being there" for the race.
That's actually what you get, based on running the Altitude's Input Meters on the last half hour (from about 1:50:00 on) of Ford vs. Ferrari last night. This is another ideosyncratic mix: heavily 7.1, even during much of the racing scenes. But when the heights do come in (probably for about 15% of the last half hour, if that), this time it's the front heights (top front) and top middles. The rear height/tops are only used very sporadically for effects, for example a few scenes with a helicopter panning in the front and overhead to the top middles (and fading into the top rears). Remember, I've got a .6 height setup. But probably 90% of the time that more than 7.1 is engaged overhead, it's the same "static pair of stereo overheads" effect in one form or another (same sound, just different levels for front heights/tops vs. top middles).

You're getting car engines, the sound of rain above and around the drivers, wipers running, occasional bursts of effect for zooming around a competitor or some weather effect, all of which add to the scenes for emphasis (in my opinion). But it's not nearly as active as a 6 Underground. On that film, once the Ghost team gets into action in Hong Kong and Turgistan, you get some in-your-face use of the Atmos presence speakers (wides, front sides, screen center) to emphasize the breakneck action (i.e. the bad guys getting magnetized).

When the heights do light up on Ford, you're often also getting the front surrounds (ss1) lighting up as well. Perhaps there's an object placement that's using both speakers to produce a more ambient "close to the listener" effect. But very odd that the rear heights are almost silent in my 13.x.6 setup. My screen centers are pretty much silent as well, and likewise (at least in my room, but I'll verify this) for the wides. I'm guessing that since I have front surrounds, it's carrying content that might be played in wides if I didn't have them. Maybe I'll try that preset and rewatch.

Leaving the technical aside, one other thing to consider is that the mixer might have been going for the feel of a documentary, and more of a 60's vibe rather than a more modern Michael Bay kinetic intensity. So perhaps a relatively more conservative sound was the goal.

So summarizing - sure, if you crank the sound and have the subs using Bass EQ, it's a better than average experience if you're running 7.1.4 (where the top fronts and top rears will split the top middle). But IMO there are "better" examples of a more sophisticated use of native Atmos once you get outside of that. I'd put Ready Player One or 6 Underground, or Overlord on the list ahead of Ford, to be honest.

I also took a look at the Bass EQ chart for Ford - it's not just me that for all the excitement, this isn't a heavy LFE movie out of the box. Check out the rolloff starting at about 45 Hz on the red dashed line, peaks aside (green dashed), and the use of LS filters to shape the curve below 40 Hz. If anything, there's a db rise from 40 to 70 Hz relative to above or below that point. Perhaps this helping to give the sense of pounding bass without digging too deep into the ULF for subsonic rumble without enhancement.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post59177802

Disclaimer: I'm watching on Apple TV from an ATV source (as opposed to Roku's limitation of lossy 5.1), but I've verified that I'm indeed getting Dolby Atmos as advertised on the description. I'm almost tempted to do the perverse thing and upmix the 5.1 track from the Roku with Neural:X in the Trinnov's DTS:X Pro and compare...
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Last edited by sdrucker; 02-14-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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post #57652 of 58861 Old 02-13-2020, 02:32 PM
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Hey, I got a question about Front Wide speakers and connection?
Been seeing alot about this but when searching can't find the information I am needing.
Do these speakers require a special connection, or just front channel?
Are there specific speakers.
Really, any more info would be great thanks!
Or, just lead me to the info...
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post #57653 of 58861 Old 02-14-2020, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dead Chain View Post
Hey, I got a question about Front Wide speakers and connection?
Been seeing alot about this but when searching can't find the information I am needing.
Do these speakers require a special connection, or just front channel?
Are there specific speakers.
Really, any more info would be great thanks!
Or, just lead me to the info...
Front Wides are separate speakers from the front mains. You need an A/V receiver that supports these channels. Then you would wire out to them from the appropriate terminals on the receiver, just like you would wire out to any other speakers.
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post #57654 of 58861 Old 02-14-2020, 11:04 AM
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I have a quick question about height speaker placement.
I currently have four height speakers installed, the are installed at 40 degrees forward and rear of the MLP.
I know 45 degrees is the recommended distance and was wondering if moving them would be better. If I attach them to the next beam in the ceiling it would put them at 47 degrees distance. Would that be better/worse? It wouldn't be too much trouble to change them just wondering if it would help.
Thanks for any help.
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post #57655 of 58861 Old 02-14-2020, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Front Wides are separate speakers from the front mains. You need an A/V receiver that supports these channels. Then you would wire out to them from the appropriate terminals on the receiver, just like you would wire out to any other speakers.

How very odd I have front wides (and TM and SS#1) connected in my system without AVR support..... I realize it's not typical, but its a piece of cake to do and works with literally everything. Pretending it doesn't exist helps no one, IMO.

I suggest the original poster look up "Scatmos" and/or "matrixed front wides" to learn more.

...

@sdrucker - Have you ever analyzed the Atmos version of the original Jumanji or Brad Pitt's Fury? Unlike this so-called "Reference Atmos" car race (Fast and the Furious 1 in DTS:X has excellent 7.1 usage, but similarly doesn't do much overhead), they actually make heavy use of the overhead speakers. I'm curious if they use more speakers (wides, screens, etc).

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post #57656 of 58861 Old 02-14-2020, 04:23 PM
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Hi Guys,

I'm new here. Been lurking for about 4 months trying to gain knowledge of my new atmos system and best speaker placement in my room. I'm located in the US on the east coast. It seems to me that is fairly important because I'm getting the impression a lot of people here are European.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
To me it seems in a x.x.6 setup the Height signal is deviated between the 6, and ending up in a very large Height field.
Now with 2 straight above the MLP, all signals go to just 2 speakers and giving me a "feeling" that having just 2 Top Middle is far better then having 6, and hearing pin pointed field i have now, instead of a large field.

Ok, the helicopter is not flying around the room, but what i hear now is far more impressive.
With 6 i hear a Huey helicopter, now i hear a Chinook helicopter, and its making tight circles above me [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Unfortunately, many Atmos soundtracks are authored as 7.1.4 channels and make no use of Top Middle speakers if you have more than 4 heights. Even some authored with audio objects leave the TM speakers silent much of the time. Additionally, almost all DTS:X soundtracks are authored as 7.1.4.

I suspect that your problem was that your Front Height speakers were blending in with your front mains, and your Rear Heights were blending in with your Surround Backs, making it hard to differentiate the heights from the ground level. And since most Atmos and DTS:X tracks weren't using Top Middles, you hardly ever heard anything above your head. Once you downscaled to 7.1.2, your receiver consolidated all height information into the Top Middles and suddenly the top of your room came alive.
So are you supporting CBdicX's opinion that .6 in a home atmos system is pretty much a waste?

G
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post #57657 of 58861 Old 02-14-2020, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMil View Post
Hi Guys,

I'm new here. Been lurking for about 4 months trying to gain knowledge of my new atmos system and best speaker placement in my room. I'm located in the US on the east coast. It seems to me that is fairly important because I'm getting the impression a lot of people here are European.





So are you supporting CBdicX's opinion that .6 in a home atmos system is pretty much a waste?

G
It's not a waste if you extract top middle instead of counting on a high-end AVR to do it that doesn't allow it to do its job properly. I use two Dolby Pro Logic processors to extract top middle (using center channel output with front/rear inputs, one processor for left and one for right) and it works with EVERYTHING and allows full end-to-end room panning overhead with no loss directly overhead. I got the two processors for about $40 each off eBay and used my old non-Atmos Yamaha AVR (7.1 Input mode) to power the overheads. Fantastic.
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Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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post #57658 of 58861 Old 02-15-2020, 05:20 AM
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@MagnumX and anyone else who was waiting, note that Atmos on AppleTV 4k for Mandalorian seems to be fixed! I saw an app update and I confirmed Atmos via my AVR.

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post #57659 of 58861 Old 02-15-2020, 07:36 AM
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@MagnumX and anyone else who was waiting, note that Atmos on AppleTV 4k for Mandalorian seems to be fixed! I saw an app update and I confirmed Atmos via my AVR.

Does it also still have HDR? The last time they "fixed" the Atmos they took away HDR. Hopefully it has both now.
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post #57660 of 58861 Old 02-15-2020, 07:39 AM
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So are you supporting CBdicX's opinion that .6 in a home atmos system is pretty much a waste?

I would not say it's a waste, but as currently implemented, four properly placed height speakers in the Top Front and Top Rear positions are pretty much the sweet spot for Atmos. Unfortunately, room limitations and other considerations (such as multiple seating rows) may prevent putting the speakers in those positions.
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