The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1926 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 28488Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #57751 of 58861 Old 02-20-2020, 08:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by erwos View Post
Thank you. Still appears like the X3600H is my best bet based on my priorities, but the 6013 and RZ740 were both worth a look. (6014 was out of my price range, alas.)


Yeah, the 3600 seems to be the hero of the day. I use a 6012 and a Yamaha amp for 7.1.4. If you can find one, and deal with the porthole lol, it’s also a good choice.
erwos likes this.
Polyrythm1k is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #57752 of 58861 Old 02-20-2020, 09:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebernardo View Post
Looking for advice on setting up some Atmos heights. (in-ceiling vs front/back heights)

Setup: 12x14' theater area but open on both left and right. Main seating is up against back wall. Currently have: 3.1 KEF/SVS + Marantz SR6013. I have access to in-ceiling and in-rear wall. I can bump the seating away from rear wall a little but not much.

My initial thought is to at least add 2 rear and 2 ceiling (Top middle). 2 KEF T101 (because they are thin and can possibly toe-in without being too obtrusive) + 2 in-ceiling. Or maybe some in-wall rear.

The SR6013 can do 4 height speakers in any combination of front/back height/top. Is there a huge advantage to going to 4 heights? I don't think I would do all 4 top (TF + TR), since I don't have the necessary distance rear of seating for the TR. But maybe a in-ceiling TM + rear-wall mount Rear Height?

1) What configuration of heights (2 vs 4, height vs top) would be recommended when seating is up against back wall?
2) Is in-wall rear a good option, or should I stick with the thin T101s? (I can't really do bookshelf sized for the rears)

TIA

Mike
You'd be better off with front height + top middle, IMO. There's way more information up front than in back. All the back stuff would get moved to top middle and the mid-information would appear in-between it and the front height. Without 4 overheads, you won't really get any overhead panning (helicopter won't move around the room, just stay overhead).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57753 of 58861 Old 02-20-2020, 01:17 PM
Newbie
 
mikebernardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You'd be better off with front height + top middle, IMO. There's way more information up front than in back. All the back stuff would get moved to top middle and the mid-information would appear in-between it and the front height. Without 4 overheads, you won't really get any overhead panning (helicopter won't move around the room, just stay overhead).
Thanks. The reason I was thinking the rear heights are important is because all the Dolby guides with > 2 heights (https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-...des/index.html) put them in front and behind the seating position.
mikebernardo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #57754 of 58861 Old 02-20-2020, 02:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebernardo View Post
Thanks. The reason I was thinking the rear heights are important is because all the Dolby guides with > 2 heights (https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-...des/index.html) put them in front and behind the seating position.
All I'm saying is the renderer is going to collapse the rear or middle either way with 4 overhead (i.e. rear height + front height and front height + top middle are going to sound more or less the same, I think as it will put the rear content to the nearest speaker either way. At that distance, rear bed could be an issue as you don't want the speakers playing straight in your ear (bipolar on the sides can work OK if they're not too close to the couch).

With that size room front height (or tops) plus rear tops (set overhead) will work fine. The top middle content will end up halfway between them on the ceiling. It's the same as sitting in the back of an Atmos theater more or less. Top middle is in front of you. No one says it has to be right overhead. It's in the middle of the room, not necessarily right over your head (e.g. I have 3 rows of seats; they can't all be centered for direct overhead sounds, although many are array effects and move with the seating anyway).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57755 of 58861 Old 02-22-2020, 11:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
blake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 977
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked: 154
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

I am building a dedicated basement HT, which was just drywalled. My integrator used laser measurement to pre-wire the speaker location following official Dolby Atmos 9.x.6 recommendations. I attached all the speaker layout drawings. What do you guys think? Note the on-wall speakers face downwards so they are placed a little above ear height. Row 1 is MLP and is about 10 feet from the screen. Note this isn't drawn exactly to scale but it is generally close.



My concerns:



1) Note the ceiling at the back of the theater is lower due to a bulkhead. This makes ceiling speaker placement challenging. Top middle and top rear looks crowded to me, but if you use angles relative to MLP (like they did), this is evidently to Dolby specs?



2) Should front wides be pushed closer to the screen?



3) Why are the rear surrounds so far apart (dolby specifies 135 to 150' from MLP). Is this okay?

4) Any suggestions ? It’s already prewired but we have some slack in the cable.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Speaker-Layout-p1.JPG
Views:	131
Size:	82.8 KB
ID:	2688758   Click image for larger version

Name:	Speaker-Layout-p2.JPG
Views:	126
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	2688760   Click image for larger version

Name:	Speaker-Layout-p3.JPG
Views:	127
Size:	120.2 KB
ID:	2688762   Click image for larger version

Name:	Speaker-Layout-p4.JPG
Views:	94
Size:	95.6 KB
ID:	2688764   Click image for larger version

Name:	Speaker-Layout-p5.JPG
Views:	88
Size:	147.2 KB
ID:	2688766  

Click image for larger version

Name:	theater-pic1.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	471.5 KB
ID:	2688768   Click image for larger version

Name:	theater-pic2.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	364.2 KB
ID:	2688770   Click image for larger version

Name:	theater-pic3.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	470.5 KB
ID:	2688772   Click image for larger version

Name:	theater-pic4.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	505.8 KB
ID:	2688774  

Last edited by blake; 02-22-2020 at 11:53 PM.
blake is offline  
post #57756 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 07:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
@blake - I think you're right to be concerned about the rear overhead speakers. That's a huge difference in height (it will be extremely noticeable, IMO. My side heights are only 8 inches lower than the front/rear heights and I can tell in the Helicopter demo until I bleed (array) the front/rears a bit to cut the distance in half to a phantom 4 inches). At 11 inches difference in height (that's 119" in the front and 108" in the back if I'm reading that right?), it will be more noticeable than here.

The problem is you can't mount top middle properly due to the bulkhead blocking the sound for the second row. It'd likely be very muffled. You could perhaps do an array of two sets of top middle and the front row would at least get half the height restored (i.e. mount a second set directly above the front row carrying the same signal and the array effect will divide the difference between the two (i.e. it will sound only 6.5" difference in height and image at the mid-way point of the room). It's not ideal, but would lessen the effect, I think.

What I think I'd do is this. Forget top front (I'd reuse it as VOG, but pull the speaker in more towards the front row) and do front height above the screen. That would lower the starting angle a bit so the overall heights of the overhead speakers are much closer together. You could then do top middle where planned (or better mount it flush with the edge of the bulk head just in front of the bulkhead with a hanger or angle bracket at the real mid-point of the room, but I suppose you could keep the original location, but it would be a bit uneven there. But at the mid-point, it'd be even and keep things like the Dolby helicopter moving smoothly. Then mount the rear overheads where planned and you'll have a nice relatively EVEN overhead soundstage, which IMO is more important than the absolute height above your head as that "diving" effect would drive me mad. But that ceiling location would be awesome for Auro-3D/DTS:X "VOG" as it's meant to be above the rest of the overhead speakers and your layout is one of the few I've seen that would be pretty much ideal to pull a second layer off like that.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)

Last edited by MagnumX; 02-23-2020 at 07:46 AM.
MagnumX is offline  
post #57757 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 08:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Rob Greer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post



My concerns:



1) Note the ceiling at the back of the theater is lower due to a bulkhead. This makes ceiling speaker placement challenging. Top middle and top rear looks crowded to me, but if you use angles relative to MLP (like they did), this is evidently to Dolby specs?


I have a similar ceiling in my Theater. And my rear top speakers are lower than my front or middle speakers (and closer). I had a similar question that I asked here. As @Pointed out, good better than perfect. And audyssey should do its job of correcting the distance settings (assuming you’re using audyssey).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Epson Pro Cinema 6050UB Projector, SI Zero Edge 120" Screen, Marantz AV8805, Panasonic DP-UB9000, QNAP 32TB, Apple TV 4K, Microsoft Xbox One X, Emotiva XPA-DR3 Amp, Emotiva XPA-6 Amps (x2), Behringer NX3000D Amp (Buttkickers), Atlantic Technology 8600e LRC Front Speakers, Atlantic Technology 8200e Surround Speakers (x6), Atlantic Technology IC-6 OBA In-Ceiling Speakers (x6), SVS PB16 Ultra Piano Gloss Black Subwoofers (x4), full info here
Rob Greer is offline  
post #57758 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 09:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
blake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 977
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
@blake - I think you're right to be concerned about the rear overhead speakers. That's a huge difference in height (it will be extremely noticeable, IMO. My side heights are only 8 inches lower than the front/rear heights and I can tell in the Helicopter demo until I bleed (array) the front/rears a bit to cut the distance in half to a phantom 4 inches). At 11 inches difference in height (that's 119" in the front and 108" in the back if I'm reading that right?), it will be more noticeable than here.



The problem is you can't mount top middle properly due to the bulkhead blocking the sound for the second row. It'd likely be very muffled. You could perhaps do an array of two sets of top middle and the front row would at least get half the height restored (i.e. mount a second set directly above the front row carrying the same signal and the array effect will divide the difference between the two (i.e. it will sound only 6.5" difference in height and image at the mid-way point of the room). It's not ideal, but would lessen the effect, I think.



What I think I'd do is this. Forget top front (I'd reuse it as VOG, but pull the speaker in more towards the front row) and do front height above the screen. That would lower the starting angle a bit so the overall heights of the overhead speakers are much closer together. You could then do top middle where planned (or better mount it flush with the edge of the bulk head just in front of the bulkhead with a hanger or angle bracket at the real mid-point of the room, but I suppose you could keep the original location, but it would be a bit uneven there. But at the mid-point, it'd be even and keep things like the Dolby helicopter moving smoothly. Then mount the rear overheads where planned and you'll have a nice relatively EVEN overhead soundstage, which IMO is more important than the absolute height above your head as that "diving" effect would drive me mad. But that ceiling location would be awesome for Auro-3D/DTS:X "VOG" as it's meant to be above the rest of the overhead speakers and your layout is one of the few I've seen that would be pretty much ideal to pull a second layer off like that.

Thanks for your suggestions. You don’t think room correction (Dirac 2.0 hopefully) will compensate for the roughly 1 foot height difference of the ceiling speakers ?

Another option is perhaps dropping the front 3 ceiling panels down as much as possible, so I can somehow suspend the front height pair a bit lower.

(I would be interested to hear your comments on my question 2 and 3! )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
blake is offline  
post #57759 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 09:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Thanks for your suggestions. You don’t think room correction (Dirac 2.0 hopefully) will compensate for the roughly 1 foot height difference of the ceiling speakers ?

Another option is perhaps dropping the front 3 ceiling panels down as much as possible, so I can somehow suspend the front height pair a bit lower.

(I would be interested to hear your comments on my question 2 and 3! )
I think I left the word "huge" from misreading the height difference that I corrected. 11 inches isn't as bad as the 17 inches I was somehow thinking originally, but still probably noticeable, especially since you're sitting closer to the lower speakers in the back. There's any number of solutions in terms of a speaker mount. Instead of flush mounting the front, something that would drop it about one foot and angle it towards the listening position would work fine as well (i.e. it doesn't have to be at the screen, but could still be at the top front position, although front heights would give you Auro-3D capability if your AVR supports it). Something like my PSB CS500 already hangs about 6-8 inches lower or thereabouts and has a built in angular rotation system to aim the speakers (it's what I use in the back for rear heights). I'm not familiar with your chosen speaker brand's offerings in that regard. The only important part is to have the same basic mid-range and tweeter drivers to keep a very close timbre match.

Room correction doesn't correct for height differences AFAIK, just frequency response issues and distance delays.

The other speakers in the room look good at a glance.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57760 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 09:47 AM
Member
 
Trojan35's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Okay, so I've spent 30 minutes googling and can't find a good recommendation. Looking for a scene to show off ATMOS home theater *and* dialogue clarity, and unfortunately this needs to be constrained to Disney+ for this test. Most of the stuff I've seen in SW or Marvel has great ATMOS but not a lot of isolated dialogue (testing out center channels). I'm thinking of something like Oblivion's opening great ATMOS + Dialogue, or Deadpool's opening that does ATMOS + Dialogue + Music.

What say you, Disney+ ATMOS people?

Current: 77C7 OLED, Denon 6500X, Rotel 1582, Monoprice 460T x2, C365, IW365 x4, RSLC34e x4, SVS PB12-NSD
Prior: s720w, DefTech Mythos Three/Four/etc
Trojan35 is offline  
post #57761 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 10:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Okay, so I've spent 30 minutes googling and can't find a good recommendation. Looking for a scene to show off ATMOS home theater *and* dialogue clarity, and unfortunately this needs to be constrained to Disney+ for this test. Most of the stuff I've seen in SW or Marvel has great ATMOS but not a lot of isolated dialogue (testing out center channels). I'm thinking of something like Oblivion's opening great ATMOS + Dialogue, or Deadpool's opening that does ATMOS + Dialogue + Music.

What say you, Disney+ ATMOS people?
Too bad TRON Legacy isn't Atmos.... 2 out of 3. I don't know if the dialog is the best quality, but the opening to Revenge of the Sith certainly has a gamut of effects, music and talking between Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Trojan35 likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57762 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 01:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Geraldton - 250miles from Perth Western Australia
Posts: 823
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 454 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Okay, so I've spent 30 minutes googling and can't find a good recommendation. Looking for a scene to show off ATMOS home theater *and* dialogue clarity, and unfortunately this needs to be constrained to Disney+ for this test. Most of the stuff I've seen in SW or Marvel has great ATMOS but not a lot of isolated dialogue (testing out center channels). I'm thinking of something like Oblivion's opening great ATMOS + Dialogue, or Deadpool's opening that does ATMOS + Dialogue + Music.

What say you, Disney+ ATMOS people?
Its not Disney but the opening scene to 6 Underground would be a good candidate
Trojan35 likes this.
niterida is online now  
post #57763 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 04:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Rob Greer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post

Room correction doesn't correct for height differences AFAIK, just frequency response issues and distance delays.

Distance delay changes via correction change the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. Physical speaker height changes the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. They’re the same thing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Epson Pro Cinema 6050UB Projector, SI Zero Edge 120" Screen, Marantz AV8805, Panasonic DP-UB9000, QNAP 32TB, Apple TV 4K, Microsoft Xbox One X, Emotiva XPA-DR3 Amp, Emotiva XPA-6 Amps (x2), Behringer NX3000D Amp (Buttkickers), Atlantic Technology 8600e LRC Front Speakers, Atlantic Technology 8200e Surround Speakers (x6), Atlantic Technology IC-6 OBA In-Ceiling Speakers (x6), SVS PB16 Ultra Piano Gloss Black Subwoofers (x4), full info here
Rob Greer is offline  
post #57764 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 04:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Greer View Post
Distance delay changes via correction change the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. Physical speaker height changes the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. They’re the same thing.
In a home theater, setting time delays is a given so all wavefronts arrive at the MLP at the same time. So if "they're the same thing" then how do you tell the center speaker from the left side surround from the top middle left speaker if they all arrive at the same time? The distance delays have NOTHING to do with it direction of the sound effect. It has to do with HRTF information created by your outer ear shape that your brain can then interpret direction from.

Room correction cannot correct for angular direction of sound. If it could, we could just stack all speakers in one place and let room correction make them sound like they come from somewhere else in the room. This is, in fact, what DTS Virtual:X attempts to do for the height locations by modifying the HRTF cues in the sounds coming to your ears from the main speakers (it still requires precise alignment of the front speakers and generally only works for correctly for the MLP).

If the original poster doesn't want to hear a difference in placement due to different speaker heights, Audyssey won't do a thing to correct it. The helicopter will move downward when it goes between the higher speaker and the lower speaker.
mrtickleuk likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)

Last edited by MagnumX; 02-23-2020 at 04:35 PM.
MagnumX is offline  
post #57765 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 04:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Greer View Post
Distance delay changes via correction change the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. Physical speaker height changes the timing of when sounds reach the MLP. They’re the same thing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


“Physical speaker height changes the timing when sounds reach the MLP”.
This is true, but audyssey cannot correct for height changes. Only distances. So even though it can address the difference in distance, it can’t make a speaker sound higher than it is.
Polyrythm1k is online now  
post #57766 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 04:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1457 Post(s)
Liked: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
... My integrator used laser measurement to pre-wire the speaker location following official Dolby Atmos 9.x.6 recommendations. I attached all the speaker layout drawings...use angles relative to MLP (like they did), this is evidently to Dolby specs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
In a home theater, setting time delays is a given so all wavefronts arrive at the MLP at the same time. So if "they're the same thing" then how do you tell the center speaker from the left side surround from the top middle left speaker if they all arrive at the same time...
It's all about the angle (taken care of by the installer), and the delay set for distance (taken care of by room correction).

Quote:
The helicopter will move downward when it goes between the higher speaker and the lower speaker.
No, it won't.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #57767 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 05:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Rob Greer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
“Physical speaker height changes the timing when sounds reach the MLP”.
This is true, but audyssey cannot correct for height changes. Only distances. So even though it can address the difference in distance, it can’t make a speaker sound higher than it is.


This doesn’t make sense to me. If a top front speaker is at a 45 degree angle forward of the MLP on a 10’ section of ceiling and the top rear speaker angle is at a 45 degree angle on an 8’ ceiling then correction software can handle that because the direction is the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Epson Pro Cinema 6050UB Projector, SI Zero Edge 120" Screen, Marantz AV8805, Panasonic DP-UB9000, QNAP 32TB, Apple TV 4K, Microsoft Xbox One X, Emotiva XPA-DR3 Amp, Emotiva XPA-6 Amps (x2), Behringer NX3000D Amp (Buttkickers), Atlantic Technology 8600e LRC Front Speakers, Atlantic Technology 8200e Surround Speakers (x6), Atlantic Technology IC-6 OBA In-Ceiling Speakers (x6), SVS PB16 Ultra Piano Gloss Black Subwoofers (x4), full info here
Rob Greer is offline  
post #57768 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 05:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
It's all about the angle (taken care of by the installer), and the delay set for distance (taken care of by room correction).
The installer? Does that mean you had someone else do it?

Quote:
Quote:
The helicopter will move downward when it goes between the higher speaker and the lower speaker.
No, it won't.
If you don't think having front heights at 96", top middles at 72" and rear heights at 96" won't result in that Dolby Atmos helicopter dipping downward and then climbing back up as it moves around the room, that means you've NEVER TRIED IT. I guarantee you 100% it will exactly that! This is why overheads are normally installed at the same height as each other (bed speakers too). It's also how I can do dialog height with a mixer by changing the virtual height of the dialog to move upward from bed level to mid-screen level by mixing overhead with bed level. The angle changes typically by the distance from the listener, not physically different heights, particularly near the listener (i.e. mid-room speakers near the MLP).

Normally, you'd need side heights to even have the top middle location at a different height than the rest, but a bulkhead or beam can easily force a speaker into a different height position (clearly the case here). It's quite easy to hear differences in distance even with the same overhead angles. There's a huge difference between a person talking at 10 feet away and one at 100 feet away, particularly when they're phantom imaging between speakers that are at different heights.

How do you think Atmos images things at different heights between bed level and height level? It phantoms in-between them. If you place the bed speaker higher, it can't image sounds lower. By moving the height of the speaker, you are moving the hard image with it. Phantoms only work in-between hard sources. So if the first source is 11 inches higher, the phantom image will start moving lower the moment in starts moving between the to locations and will end up right at the top middle (or whatever) speaker when the pan completes to that speaker. The sound is now coming from that speaker directly. It will sound like it's coming right from it at whatever height it's at. Thus, if a sound sound moves from one to the other, it will move in a diagonal line between the two. That means it will change height by that 11 inches by the time it gets there.

And my top middles (as side heights) were only off by 8 inches (due to a steel beam box not letting me mount that on the ceiling), not 24 inches and I could clearly hear the helicopter changing height as moved around the room. How could it not, would be the better question. By leaking some front/rear height, that arrayed the speaker and reduced the difference (in phantom height as a result) by about half, resulting in a helicopter that was no longer diving downward in the middle of the room. But with pure discrete and even larger differences, it would eventually start dive bombing in the middle.

Perhaps your installer could verify this for you?

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57769 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 05:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eaayoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Question about Atmos Height speakers...

I'll be adding four in-ceiling speakers to my HT system for a 5.1.4 system. How critical is the the placement of in-ceiling speakers from the MLP as long as they are installed at the same height and also running Audyssey?
eaayoung is online now  
post #57770 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1457 Post(s)
Liked: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The installer? Does that mean you had someone else do it?...
...Perhaps your installer could verify this for you?
Please re-read my post. I don't know why you misunderstood it, as I bolded the relevant parts in both the OP's quote, and yours. The OP's installer (or you, in your system.) set the proper angles, his room correction will account for distances to MLP.

Since you obviously didn't understand, I'll try to draw you a picture. If the speakers are in the red locations (due to soffits, beams, ect), they are still at the same angle from MLP as the original locations. Room correction will set delays (and volume levels) accordingly. As long as the angle is correct, the sounds image correctly.



Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture speaker angles.PNG
Views:	362
Size:	48.6 KB
ID:	2689222
Polyrythm1k likes this.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________

Last edited by Augerhandle; 02-24-2020 at 11:14 AM.
Augerhandle is offline  
post #57771 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Greer View Post
This doesn’t make sense to me. If a top front speaker is at a 45 degree angle forward of the MLP on a 10’ section of ceiling and the top rear speaker angle is at a 45 degree angle on an 8’ ceiling then correction software can handle that because the direction is the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it maintains 45° then yeah maybe it would work. I responded rather quickly but was thinking of the post by Blake. He referenced a 1’ difference which I doubt he’d notice. In my minds eye, you were saying Audyssey would correct for a height difference as I’ve loosely sketched in the photo. In that case, I still say it can’t but following a 45° line from a rear top to the MLP audyssey should be able to account for that with delay and spl.

Edit: my point is illustrated further by augerhandles image.

Last edited by Polyrythm1k; 02-23-2020 at 06:12 PM.
Polyrythm1k is online now  
post #57772 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1457 Post(s)
Liked: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
If it maintains 45° then yeah maybe it would work. I responded rather quickly but was thinking of the post by Blake. He referenced a 1’ difference which I doubt he’d notice. In my minds eye, you were saying Audyssey would correct for a height difference as I’ve loosely sketched in the photo. In that case, I still say it can’t but following a 45° line from a rear top to the MLP audyssey should be able to account for that with delay and spl.

Edit: my point is illustrated further by augerhandles image.
Agreed. In your drawing, lowering the speaker also changes the angle from MLP.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #57773 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Agreed. In your drawing, lowering the speaker also changes the angle from MLP.


Indeed it does. I also think I was putting a couple different posts together lol. Took the grill out for the first time since early November. I shouldn’t multitask lol.
Augerhandle likes this.
Polyrythm1k is online now  
post #57774 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1457 Post(s)
Liked: 1425
You put yours away?


"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #57775 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
blake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Posts: 977
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked: 154
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Agreed. In your drawing, lowering the speaker also changes the angle from MLP.


Thanks for all the discussion about the heights. Yes it makes sense to me so long as you maintain the same angle from MLP the room correction should adjust for the height difference if it’s mounted at a different absolute height from the floor. I believe we did that, which is why the top middle speaker is a little closer forward on the bulkhead.

I just don’t understand the exact angles and will have to ask ex. top rear seems off. But I guess with two rows this is the best way to mount them.

Should I move the front wides closer forward ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
blake is offline  
post #57776 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 06:58 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 442
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
You put yours away?





That looks great! I have a Weber as well. Except mine has the charcoal storage and counter top with a propane burner for the charcoal chimney. I do sometimes use it in the winter, but i loathe the cold and living in MN, it can be difficult to convince myself to leave the house. Lol.
Polyrythm1k is online now  
post #57777 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 08:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Whittier, CA
Posts: 28,899
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7867 Post(s)
Liked: 7055
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaayoung View Post
How critical is the the placement of in-ceiling speakers from the MLP as long as they are installed at the same height and also running Audyssey?
Not very critical. Try to have them at 45 degrees elevation above ear height. Keep the placement as symmetrical as possible from left to right. Front/back symmetry is not as important.
eaayoung likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #57778 of 58861 Old 02-23-2020, 08:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MagnumX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,683
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1596 Post(s)
Liked: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not very critical. Try to have them at 45 degrees elevation above ear height. Keep the placement as symmetrical as possible from left to right. Front/back symmetry is not as important.
Trying to have them at 45 degrees from the MLP determines their precise front/back symmetry. If they are both exactly 45 degrees from the MLP, they are precisely symmetrical as vertical elevation determines the z-coordinate on the ceiling if the overheads are at the same height as he indicated. If they were not symmetrical, you might have 50 and 145 or 45 and 125, although I suspect he may have even meant 30 and 120 or whatever.

There's also listening position symmetry and room symmetry (latter being more important for multiple rows of seating).

What's actually really important is the angular distance between overhead pairs. If they are too far apart (~ >120 degrees total), they won't phantom image well in the middle.

Of course, according to some advice a few posts above, the left/right symmetry shouldn't matter one bit either. You can easily correct for it with a simple speaker delay (for one seat anyway).
eaayoung likes this.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
MagnumX is offline  
post #57779 of 58861 Old 02-24-2020, 05:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Lasalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 1,022
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 641 Post(s)
Liked: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
AFAIK, the 4 main surrounds (Sides, Rears) are prerequisites for adding numbered surrounds (S1, S2, RS1, RS2). See chart below:

FYI, Trinnov has confirmed this dependency is in their code line as well, they use their 3D mapping to accommodate a Ls1,Ls2 setup., but Lss does need to be specified.
Lasalle is offline  
post #57780 of 58861 Old 02-24-2020, 07:37 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Whittier, CA
Posts: 28,899
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7867 Post(s)
Liked: 7055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
...they use their 3D mapping to accommodate a Ls1,Ls2 setup.
What does that mean? Are the S1 & S2 locations not natively decoded/rendered?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off