The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1953 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #58561 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by avsngaiouser View Post
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Sorry, I just wanted clarification if the PCM was truly atmos from other people’️s experience to see if it is just a NAD quirk. That’️s why.

I don't have the receiver you have, but the MAT decoding that ATV4k uses outputs PCM and an ATMOS capable receiver should decode it properly. Will the NAD tell you that's what it's doing? Found the following in another forum, it should apply to the ATV4k as well:


Dolby Atmos in Dolby MAT

The Dolby Metadata-enhanced Audio Transmission (Dolby MAT) encoder resides in a Blu-ray player to pack the variable bit-rate Dolby TrueHD bitstreams for transmission over the fixed bit-rate HDMI connections. A MAT decoder is subsequently employed in an AVR to unpack the Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. With the introduction of Dolby Atmos, we have expanded this technology to support encoding of Dolby Atmos content as lossless pulse-code modulation (PCM) audio.

A key benefit of Dolby MAT 2.0 is that Dolby Atmos object-based audio can be live encoded and transmitted from a source device with limited latency and processing complexity. Among the possible sources are broadcast set-top boxes, PCs, and game consoles. The Dolby MAT 2.0 decoder in an AVR outputs the object-based audio and its metadata for further processing. The Dolby MAT 2.0 container is scalable and leverages the full potential of the HDMI audio pipeline.
So from the help in the other thread by Markus We have come to realize that the common denominator is the Disney App on the Apple TV 4K. My NAD reciever correctly displays “ATMOS” when playing a atmos title in either my TV app or Netflix but displays “PCM surround” when playing a atmos title in the Disney plus app.

Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??

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post #58562 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Yes it works fine with my Denon AVRs.

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post #58563 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 09:53 AM
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Unfortunately for me it makes DTS:X more "annoying" than immersive.
Being able to hear the tops all time doesn't make it more natural sounding, particularly when dialogue and other sounds get routed there or to the surrounds when they're supposed to be up front.

But that's not really the case.It is true (atleast in my case) that I could hear a lot from the tops, but no, it doesn't route the dialogues and other sounds which are supposed to come from the LCR. That would definitely make me annoying too. One example of what DTS:X does is it tries to play the sounds which are supposed to come from the rear location (like vehicle moment which usually happens behind the view) into the tops and surrounds combined, and the transition will be smooth that you'd never notice that the sound is coming only from above. I could give other examples too after watching first 2 harry potter movies (they are simply amazing in DTS:X), but again, to each their own I guess
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post #58564 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Like you, I am also in Canada, which appears to be relevant to this discussion. I had Disney+ from launch day, and it played Atmos content correctly for a couple of months. I have not been able to get any Atmos signals from any Disney+ title for several months now. Disney has a FAQ section that suggest they may be reducing bandwidth at governmental requests since the corona outbreak shot internet use into the stratosphere and there were concerns capacity would be plugged during critical times.

They are still sending out 4K signals, as I still get the Dolby Vision or HDR tags on my tv when those streams play, but everything sound-wise only comes through as 5.1 PCM. My understanding is that the Atmos signals are buried within those core 5.1 tracks so I don't understand how they would add any extra bandwidth to the signal as received.

I use a Marantz SR8012 receiver. I can still get Atmos on my ATV 4K Netflix account, so it is not an issue with how the ATV or receiver processes the Atmos signal.

Disney+ still displays Atmos as an available format when you select a given title and go to the start page, which adds to the confusion.

This seems to be a Disney+ Canada issue as I've seen little about it on these forums which are heavily U.S. focused.

Would love for some other Canadians to chime in with their results.
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post #58565 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 10:19 AM
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Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Works fine here and I have a 2K projector.
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post #58566 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyhollywood View Post
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Like you, I am also in Canada, which appears to be relevant to this discussion. I had Disney+ from launch day, and it played Atmos content correctly for a couple of months. I have not been able to get any Atmos signals from any Disney+ title for several months now. Disney has a FAQ section that suggest they may be reducing bandwidth at governmental requests since the corona outbreak shot internet use into the stratosphere and there were concerns capacity would be plugged during critical times.

They are still sending out 4K signals, as I still get the Dolby Vision or HDR tags on my tv when those streams play, but everything sound-wise only comes through as 5.1 PCM. My understanding is that the Atmos signals are buried within those core 5.1 tracks so I don't understand how they would add any extra bandwidth to the signal as received.

I use a Marantz SR8012 receiver. I can still get Atmos on my ATV 4K Netflix account, so it is not an issue with how the ATV or receiver processes the Atmos signal.

Disney+ still displays Atmos as an available format when you select a given title and go to the start page, which adds to the confusion.

This seems to be a Disney+ Canada issue as I've seen little about it on these forums which are heavily U.S. focused.

Would love for some other Canadians to chime in with their results.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... your best bet is to buy Blu-ray and 4k Blu-ray titles (or rent them as there are services available even for 4k discs) as often as you can.

The content doesn't just play correctly at the whim of some streaming company or ISP and the quality is usually better.

That's my advice.
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Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #58567 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyhollywood View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Like you, I am also in Canada, which appears to be relevant to this discussion. I had Disney+ from launch day, and it played Atmos content correctly for a couple of months. I have not been able to get any Atmos signals from any Disney+ title for several months now. Disney has a FAQ section that suggest they may be reducing bandwidth at governmental requests since the corona outbreak shot internet use into the stratosphere and there were concerns capacity would be plugged during critical times.

They are still sending out 4K signals, as I still get the Dolby Vision or HDR tags on my tv when those streams play, but everything sound-wise only comes through as 5.1 PCM. My understanding is that the Atmos signals are buried within those core 5.1 tracks so I don't understand how they would add any extra bandwidth to the signal as received.

I use a Marantz SR8012 receiver. I can still get Atmos on my ATV 4K Netflix account, so it is not an issue with how the ATV or receiver processes the Atmos signal.

Disney+ still displays Atmos as an available format when you select a given title and go to the start page, which adds to the confusion.

This seems to be a Disney+ Canada issue as I've seen little about it on these forums which are heavily U.S. focused.

Would love for some other Canadians to chime in with their results.
This parallels my experience exactly

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post #58568 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Works fine here and I have a 2K projector.
Must be a Canadian thing since you are in the states

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post #58569 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 12:09 PM
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I've said it before and I'll say it again... your best bet is to buy Blu-ray and 4k Blu-ray titles (or rent them as there are services available even for 4k discs) as often as you can.

The content doesn't just play correctly at the whim of some streaming company or ISP and the quality is usually better.

That's my advice.
I have thousands of discs and they are still coming in on a regular basis. My 4k streams from Disney+ are absolutely spectacular looking, regardless of Atmos... and The Mandalorian is not available on any disc format.

But thanks for the advice.
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post #58570 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
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Originally Posted by bobbyhollywood View Post
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Has anyone had any luck correctly playing and receiving atmos through the Disney plus app through an Apple TV 4K??
Like you, I am also in Canada, which appears to be relevant to this discussion. I had Disney+ from launch day, and it played Atmos content correctly for a couple of months. I have not been able to get any Atmos signals from any Disney+ title for several months now. Disney has a FAQ section that suggest they may be reducing bandwidth at governmental requests since the corona outbreak shot internet use into the stratosphere and there were concerns capacity would be plugged during critical times.

They are still sending out 4K signals, as I still get the Dolby Vision or HDR tags on my tv when those streams play, but everything sound-wise only comes through as 5.1 PCM. My understanding is that the Atmos signals are buried within those core 5.1 tracks so I don't understand how they would add any extra bandwidth to the signal as received.

I use a Marantz SR8012 receiver. I can still get Atmos on my ATV 4K Netflix account, so it is not an issue with how the ATV or receiver processes the Atmos signal.

Disney+ still displays Atmos as an available format when you select a given title and go to the start page, which adds to the confusion.

This seems to be a Disney+ Canada issue as I've seen little about it on these forums which are heavily U.S. focused.

Would love for some other Canadians to chime in with their results.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... your best bet is to buy Blu-ray and 4k Blu-ray titles (or rent them as there are services available even for 4k discs) as often as you can.

The content doesn't just play correctly at the whim of some streaming company or ISP and the quality is usually better.

That's my advice.
Trust me-I have enough 4k blu-rays. But at the same time, it is nice to have a monthly library of HUNDREDS of 4k movies on a service like Netflix and/or Disney for less then the price of a single 4k blu Ray...even if the atmos on them is slightly inferior...

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post #58571 of 58868 Old 05-21-2020, 03:43 PM
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Trust me-I have enough 4k blu-rays. But at the same time, it is nice to have a monthly library of HUNDREDS of 4k movies on a service like Netflix and/or Disney for less then the price of a single 4k blu Ray...even if the atmos on them is slightly inferior...

Fortunately, it's not an either/or proposition. For a relatively modest sum (compared to the cost of purchasing discs or making frequent trips to the movie theater), you can maintain both a variety of 4K streaming sources AND rent a couple of UHD Blu-rays per month.

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post #58572 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyhollywood View Post
...
Disney+ still displays Atmos as an available format when you select a given title and go to the start page, which adds to the confusion.

This seems to be a Disney+ Canada issue as I've seen little about it on these forums which are heavily U.S. focused.

Would love for some other Canadians to chime in with their results.

Yup! Exactly the same in Montreal.
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post #58573 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 09:48 AM
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But that's not really the case.It is true (atleast in my case) that I could hear a lot from the tops, but no, it doesn't route the dialogues and other sounds which are supposed to come from the LCR. That would definitely make me annoying too. One example of what DTS:X does is it tries to play the sounds which are supposed to come from the rear location (like vehicle moment which usually happens behind the view) into the tops and surrounds combined, and the transition will be smooth that you'd never notice that the sound is coming only from above. I could give other examples too after watching first 2 harry potter movies (they are simply amazing in DTS:X), but again, to each their own I guess
Atmos is more than capable of the same effects though, it depends on the mixer.

You'll also notice Warner has not used DTS:X again for any remixes, Atmos only now.

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post #58574 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 10:09 AM
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You'll also notice Warner has not used DTS:X again for any remixes, Atmos only now.
Yup, last time was the Harry Potter remixes. Same with Well Go USA, the only studio that was using objects on their DTS:X tracks, switched to Atmos at the end of 2018.
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post #58575 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 10:43 AM
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Folks question on the Top Middle speaker.

Should these be firing straight down, or tilted so that the tweeter is more or less in line with the MLP?

I am going to fix two more speakers (to 7.1.4 —> 7.1.6 this weekend - and wanted to get the recommended way to do it.

Personally I am leaning towards pointing the speakers towards the MLP to get better imaging - but would appreciate any guidance


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post #58576 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 11:14 AM
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You'll also notice Warner has not used DTS:X again for any remixes, Atmos only now.
You'll notice Sony has switched TO DTS:X for many new releases FROM Atmos (and even Auro-3D for about 7 titles in Europe) too. So what?

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post #58577 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 11:20 AM
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Folks question on the Top Middle speaker.

Should these be firing straight down, or tilted so that the tweeter is more or less in line with the MLP?

I am going to fix two more speakers (to 7.1.4 —> 7.1.6 this weekend - and wanted to get the recommended way to do it.

Personally I am leaning towards pointing the speakers towards the MLP to get better imaging - but would appreciate any guidance
It depends on the relative angle to the MLP compared to the particular speaker's on-axis response whether it's worth bothering. Some ceiling speakers have wide dispersion so it matters little for those. If you have more than one row of seats, you might be pointing the tweeters away from those rows even as you point towards the MLP, but that might not matter much to you if those seats get little use.

Either way, imaging isn't affected, just frequency response.

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I should have been more clear - I am not using ceiling speakers - I am using couple of B&W 685 speakers and mounting - does that change the answer anyway?


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Pretty much all "normal" speakers sound best on-axis. Speakers above you are no different -- if possible, aim them at the listening area for best performance.
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post #58580 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 11:58 AM
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You'll notice Sony has switched TO DTS:X for many new releases FROM Atmos (and even Auro-3D for about 7 titles in Europe) too. So what?
Only because of that "IMAX Enhanced" scam. Even then, the streaming versions on Apple & Vudu are Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos.

You'll note their catalog 4K remasters are still Atmos.

Lionsgate, Paramount and Fox have also dabbled and dropped DTS:X

The only consistent studio now is Universal - who has an ownership stake in the company.

(and this is the Dolby Atmos thread)

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Pretty much all "normal" speakers sound best on-axis. Speakers above you are no different -- if possible, aim them at the listening area for best performance.

Thank you - very helpful


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post #58582 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
Only because of that "IMAX Enhanced" scam. Even then, the streaming versions on Apple & Vudu are Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos.

You'll note their catalog 4K remasters are still Atmos.

Lionsgate, Paramount and Fox have also dabbled and dropped DTS:X

The only consistent studio now is Universal - who has an ownership stake in the company.
I'm still not sure what your point is as it seems to at least hint at a dislike or even possibly hatred of DTS:X for some reason. You could argue Dolby Atmos was superior to DTS:X until DTS:X Pro came out and technically speaking, DTS:X can carry more objects than home Atmos and licensing costs are lower. It can also use your choice of Atmos or Auro-3D speaker locations. For most people, there is no technical difference whatsoever (7.1.4 systems). Frankly, I'm happy to have either one on a soundtrack over just 5.1 or 7.1. Harry Potter was excellent in DTS:X and Overlord was excellent in Dolby Atmos. I really cannot comprehend why some people feel the need to love or hate either one. Given Red Tails and Death Machine are only available in Auro-3D beyond 5.1, I gladly bought both of them (and several music albums) in Auro-3D too. I'll take anything I can get above 5.1/7.1 and even then DTS:X's Neural X does a bang up job upmixing them to higher speaker counts (11.2 in regular DTS:X and up to 32.2 in DTS:X Pro). DSU is definitely inferior to Neural X, in my experience so I'm glad to have DTS around, technologically speaking even if most movies are in Dolby Atmos. All three formats work perfectly fine in my home theater.

I only wish more music albums were available in Auro-3D as it's dual-quad miked albums are vastly superior to ANY pan/pot live concert (Atmos) and despite all the hype about Atmos music albums, the reality hardly ANY work on real AVR/AVP based Atmos systems (rather than sound bar only junk). As for who does/drops what, it seems to change regularly over time, so I wouldn't count on any given studio "only" doing something forever either. Now that Fandango has purchased Vudu, all streaming bets in the long run are off, IMO, especially as more systems come online with DTS:X Pro. As for IMAX Enhance, most of it is nonsense, of course in terms of video (and DTS:X is still DTS:X), but if they can get me a full IMAX only version of Blade Runner 2049 (well preferably the 3D IMAX version, but I doubt that one will ever appear), I'd be glad to buy it no matter how much certain people "hate" them or want to call it a "scam".

Quote:
(and this is the Dolby Atmos thread)
And yet YOU were just talking about DTS:X and yet that seems to imply NO ONE ELSE should with that comment, even if it's a direct comparison to Atmos.
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post #58583 of 58868 Old 05-22-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
and technically speaking, DTS:X can carry more objects than home Atmos
Not accurate.
Quote:
and licensing costs are lower
Irrelevant when it comes to usability and performance.
Quote:
It can also use your choice of Atmos or Auro-3D speaker locations
Because nobody would set up for just DTS:X
Quote:
DSU is definitely inferior to Neural X
Not when it routes centered dialogue to the surrounds or other odd artifacts. It's louder I'll give you that.

And all DTS:X "Pro" is an upmixer. Still taking the same mapped 7.1.4 output and sending it to additional speakers, unlike the majority of Atmos soundtracks which can be sent to any speaker in a *true* 24.1.10 setup.

FandangoNow is pretty much considered by everyone to be bottom tier - the worst interface by far. They need Vudu's infrastructure to survive.

Meanwhile Atmos is being offered on everything from Trinninov to cell phones.

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post #58584 of 58868 Old 05-23-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
DTS:X can carry more objects than home Atmos...:

Not true.

And it also isn’t an apples to apples comparisons.

DTS:X can have a total of 16 streams of audio... the mixing tools allow for the almost unlimited use of objects... so either you can limit your self to mixing with a total of 16 channels (impossible for almost all content, be films, broadcast or even music...) or render out the rest of the mix and use any remaining streams to use for discrete objects (for example 7.1.4 + 5 objects....). And managing which discrete five pieces of audio to encode as objects at a given time is a foolish workflow. I think the content that has been released so far backs this up.

Atmos limits the amount of objects to be used during mixing to 118... it will then combine the entire soundtrack (beds and objects) upon encoding. DTS has no similar technology.


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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
..... licensing costs are lower:
False.

There is no licensing lost to produce content in Atmos outside of theatrical exhibition venues.

As an extrapolation of the cost argument, I would propose that it is actually more expensive to produce content (broadcast and disc) in DTS:X because you will also have to author and QC the same content in a Dolby format if you plan to stream or broadcast it... while some studios have certainly embraced the use of X on catalog titles (and a handful of current releases) it is by no means cheaper to do so if you factor in the cost of creating the eventual Dolby streams that are needed for delivery down the line.
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post #58585 of 58868 Old 05-23-2020, 04:29 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The trouble with everything being produced for the small screen is that more and more audio mixes will be designed for the lowest common denominator, mainly soundbars and TV speakers. The bulk of the mixes will no longer be monitored in large auditoriums with powerful audio systems and multi speaker arrays in order to shave production costs.


Why do you think that is the case ?

I’ve ceros my seen none of that behavior. As a matter of fact the coming I now work for has built 5 “broadcast” centric Atmos rooms in the last two years and all of them are a bit bigger than most similar rooms around. That’s in addition to the other 6+ rooms and facilities I’ve seen come online.

I would argue the way consumers listen to broadcast/tv/OTT content, and the quality of tv speakers, sound bars and headphones used to hear them, has lead to a better experience for a vast majority of consumers. No one I know mixes any differently now than they did for the last long while...

And since I made the transition to doing mainly broadcast content, about 3-4 years ago, I have almost no clients ask to hear it on “small” or TV speakers.... we have a new generation of creatives and show runners in this world and the are generally, and genuinely, focused on making the best soundtracks available without concern for the “lowest common denominator...”

I would argue things are going the other way.. we can see the shrinking of the need for large scale auditorium sized mixing stages due to the changes in the film business as a whole and the types and quantity of theatrical only “large scale” films., while broadcast mixing stages are getting better


Just my .02

Ps.. regarding your earlier comment about Dolby enabling 7.1.4 printouts... the ability for their software to do that only came out in the latest release of their software, released only a few months back. As I’ve mentioned in the last took a bit of work to make that happen in the past...
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post #58586 of 58868 Old 05-23-2020, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Not true.

And it also isn’t an apples to apples comparisons.

DTS:X can have a total of 16 streams of audio... the mixing tools allow for the almost unlimited use of objects... so either you can limit your self to mixing with a total of 16 channels (impossible for almost all content, be films, broadcast or even music...) or render out the rest of the mix and use any remaining streams to use for discrete objects (for example 7.1.4 + 5 objects....). And managing which discrete five pieces of audio to encode as objects at a given time is a foolish workflow. I think the content that has been released so far backs this up.

Atmos limits the amount of objects to be used during mixing to 118... it will then combine the entire soundtrack (beds and objects) upon encoding.
THIS (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58762310) is what I've read before on here time and again about the Home version of Dolby Atmos. 16 total objects (anything beyond that is "clustered" together with other objects to shrink them down to fit). The 16 objects supposedly encapsulates the bed channels as well as any extra speakers (not counting LFE). So a 7.1.4 always active bed would have 5 audio objects available beyond that, clustered or not. If this isn't correct, then I spent a lot of time reading false information on these forums.

As far as I know DTS:X also can contain "16" waveforms. The difference I originally alluded to is that many Atmos Blu-Rays only seem to use 12 waveforms for some reason (to save space on a disc?).(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58729910).

Quote:
DTS has no similar technology.
Another post in the DTS:X thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58738490) says that DTS:X's "spatial coding" is called either "Spatial Rendering" or "Spatial Re-mapping" (again same linked post).

Besides, what is clustering in home Atmos if not pre-rendered streams to use over a single object/waveform? Dolby likes to say it can produce 128 simultaneous objects in home Atmos lately, but it doesn't seem to me that it's any more technically correct than DTS:X claiming infinite objects that can be pre-rendered out to a given layout or pre-rendered object (which would be identical to a clustered object in function) and played back over all 32.2 speakers with DTS:X Pro. The semantics seem to fit whatever marketing they wish to use from either brand from my POV.

Quote:
False.

There is no licensing lost to produce content in Atmos outside of theatrical exhibition venues.
The "falseness" of licensing costs would seem to depend on one's point of view. You're telling me that theaters don't matter? Are there no licensing costs for AVR manufacturers? Is the software to mix Atmos is free?

Quote:
As an extrapolation of the cost argument, I would propose that it is actually more expensive to produce content (broadcast and disc) in DTS:X because you will also have to author and QC the same content in a Dolby format if you plan to stream or broadcast it... while some studios have certainly embraced the use of X on catalog titles (and a handful of current releases) it is by no means cheaper to do so if you factor in the cost of creating the eventual Dolby streams that are needed for delivery down the line.

You can argue that, but DTS:X is at least fully capable of being streamed (using DTS HQ compressed streams similar to using DD+ with Atmos). Given the ever increasing amounts of bandwidth (I have >150Mbps here and that's the bottom tier; it maxes out at 1.5Gbps from my ISP if I'm willing to pay for it), full uncompressed streams aren't an impossibility either. I certainly stream it locally that way. Fandango Now streams DTS and was reportedly set to stream IMAX Enhanced titles with DTS:X the last I heard (I do not use Fandango Now at the moment as my projector is currently 2K and it wants 4K streams to pass Atmos or DTS, which I think is short-sighted, but I have no control over it). While Atmos is clearly well ahead of DTS:X at this point in time, DTS:X isn't a dead format (one could argue Auro-3D probably is dead). Market penetration is still quite low and 8K streaming or some format with it is yet to come as well. I personally wouldn't want to predict the future only to find out I was wrong ten years later.

But as I said, I'll take whatever format I can get. The few titles I have in both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos (usually DTS:X on disc and Atmos in iTunes streaming), they sound virtually identical in every test I've done thus far here. Maybe there'd be a difference on a 32+ channel Trinnov based home theater. I cannot say as I don't have one.

I do know in general, competition is usually good for the future and having Dolby be the last sound format standing doesn't appeal to me even if they are superior in some respects. What drive would there have been to even get Atmos out there if Auro-3D hadn't threatened to overtake them by arriving first? I've read it suggested the threat of Auro-3D is what got Dolby pushing forward much sooner than they might have otherwise. We didn't even get much 7.1 content until Atmos came out. 5.1 on Blu-Ray seemed to be the overwhelming normal even when cinematic 7.1 soundtracks were available for the same movies. If nothing else, Atmos/X has lead to a lot more 7.1 soundtracks for those using older 6.1/7.1 systems even if they never upgrade to Atmos/X.

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post #58587 of 58868 Old 05-23-2020, 07:19 PM
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The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
THIS (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58762310) is what I've read before on here time and again about the Home version of Dolby Atmos. 16 total objects (anything beyond that is "clustered" together with other objects to shrink them down to fit). The 16 objects supposedly encapsulates the bed channels as well as any extra speakers (not counting LFE). So a 7.1.4 always active bed would have 5 audio objects available beyond that, clustered or not. If this isn't correct, then I spent a lot of time reading false information on these forums.



As far as I know DTS:X also can contain "16" waveforms. The difference I originally alluded to is that many Atmos Blu-Rays only seem to use 12 waveforms for some reason (to save space on a disc?).(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58729910).







Another post in the DTS:X thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post58738490) says that DTS:X's "spatial coding" is called either "Spatial Rendering" or "Spatial Re-mapping" (again same linked post).



Besides, what is clustering in home Atmos if not pre-rendered streams to use over a single object/waveform? Dolby likes to say it can produce 128 simultaneous objects in home Atmos lately, but it doesn't seem to me that it's any more technically correct than DTS:X claiming infinite objects that can be pre-rendered out to a given layout or pre-rendered object (which would be identical to a clustered object in function) and played back over all 32.2 speakers with DTS:X Pro. The semantics seem to fit whatever marketing they wish to use from either brand from my POV.







The "falseness" of licensing costs would seem to depend on one's point of view. You're telling me that theaters don't matter? Are there no licensing costs for AVR manufacturers? Is the software to mix Atmos is free?









You can argue that, but DTS:X is at least fully capable of being streamed (using DTS HQ compressed streams similar to using DD+ with Atmos). Given the ever increasing amounts of bandwidth (I have >150Mbps here and that's the bottom tier; it maxes out at 1.5Gbps from my ISP if I'm willing to pay for it), full uncompressed streams aren't an impossibility either. I certainly stream it locally that way. Fandango Now streams DTS and was reportedly set to stream IMAX Enhanced titles with DTS:X the last I heard (I do not use Fandango Now at the moment as my projector is currently 2K and it wants 4K streams to pass Atmos or DTS, which I think is short-sighted, but I have no control over it). While Atmos is clearly well ahead of DTS:X at this point in time, DTS:X isn't a dead format (one could argue Auro-3D probably is dead). Market penetration is still quite low and 8K streaming or some format with it is yet to come as well. I personally wouldn't want to predict the future only to find out I was wrong ten years later.



But as I said, I'll take whatever format I can get. The few titles I have in both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos (usually DTS:X on disc and Atmos in iTunes streaming), they sound virtually identical in every test I've done thus far here. Maybe there'd be a difference on a 32+ channel Trinnov based home theater. I cannot say as I don't have one.



I do know in general, competition is usually good for the future and having Dolby be the last sound format standing doesn't appeal to me even if they are superior in some respects. What drive would there have been to even get Atmos out there if Auro-3D hadn't threatened to overtake them by arriving first? I've read it suggested the threat of Auro-3D is what got Dolby pushing forward much sooner than they might have otherwise. We didn't even get much 7.1 content until Atmos came out. 5.1 on Blu-Ray seemed to be the overwhelming normal even when cinematic 7.1 soundtracks were available for the same movies. If nothing else, Atmos/X has lead to a lot more 7.1 soundtracks for those using older 6.1/7.1 systems even if they never upgrade to Atmos/X.


I don’t want to argue every point you now bring up.

You now claim you were talking about one thing when you clearly weee not... for example brining up theatrical licensing costs in a hone Atmos thread (and for your information the same parameters apply to cinema licensing fees and the required mix stage time to produce a cinema DTS:X mix..). Or AVR codec fees or software, etc... there is simply no case you can make where home Atmos is more expansive than using DTS:X... and I’ve given you one simple example when the inverse is almost always true.

You stated two things as facts and on those two specific things you are incorrect .... now you are trying to restate your position by referencing things you don’t understand (i.e. (“spatial remapping,” the difference between production and authoring workflows and methodologies and interchanging then at will, or the fact that the way both codecs deal with audio beds, and both and dynamic objects are completely different and fundamentally change the way you mix and produce soundtracks in the codecs)..

I’ve been on these boards a long long time ...

There are a ton of much much more educated experts (about acoustics, electronics, etc) here than me who have challenged and educated me over the last 21 years..... @markus737 , @batpig and @sdurani come to mind immediately.

When I’ve been wrong, I’ve admitted it (most of the time)... and yet sometimes in the past I’ve tried to argue my way out of a situation when I was clearly out of my depth.

As I’ve grown older (and hopefully more mature) I’ve learned that being louder (both by using CAPS and long worded, meandering, and subject changing replies) doesn’t mean the poster is more educated, or correct, on the subject they are speaking about.

A lot of time is implies they don’t have the ability to step back and absorb the information being presented to them by others and are simply, most of the time, just concerned with always being right rather than providing coherent, factual and/or gained knowledge... they are almost exclusive immovable and quite entrenched in their positions.

I just realized I might be writing one the same kind of posts my reply is speaking about.... I’ll leave it at that.

PS.. ... it is almost impossible to stream (meaning in real time over the “internet”) VBR video AND VBR lossless audio unless you can guarantee max bandwidth at all times, which is very hard to do unless you can control it (like on an optical disc or a closed network...).

Last edited by FilmMixer; 05-24-2020 at 09:57 AM.
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post #58588 of 58868 Old 05-23-2020, 09:37 PM
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I don’t want to argue every point you now bring up.

As for DTS:X, I'd love to hear your theories of why any studio would bother with DTS:X (other than Universal) in the first place. If it's always more expensive and inferior technology, what possible motivation could any of those studios have to use DTS:X on a single title? I've pointed out at least one studio that has a serious flaw (Disney) in their Atmos playback on high-end systems that DTS:X Pro never has and you dismiss it as just one studio. So I shouldn't get to play Disney Atmos titles? It'd be nice if Dolby had a remedy to that situation like DTS:X Pro does for 7.1.4 soundtracks on higher channel systems. I fail to see what's not valid about that viewpoint.

To me, that's an unacceptable flaw (I have a lot of Marvel and Disney titles) and it's why I went with Pro Logic steering extraction of Top Middle here rather than getting something like a Denon 8500 as I'd like all the movies to have direct overhead sound in my large room). Whatever panning spatial resolution advantage Atmos might have by rendering rather than just using more speakers to play what's already there (Neural X), I can't hear any issue in my 24' long room. The Atmos helicopter moves smoothly all around the room. Without Top Middle, the helicopter all but disappears in terms of a hard 'image' as it gets closer to the middle of the room and reappears as it moves towards the back. With top middle extracted, it smoothly moves around the room. I don't know how it could move any smoother being rendered, perhaps in a larger room still? Dolby's upmixer doesn't impress me either. It fails to put overhead objects (helicopters, jets, etc.) overhead most/all of the time and has no front/back panning either overhead (arrayed L/R only). If DTS were out of business, Neural X might disappear in future products and that would be a real shame given what it can do compared to DSU. I also like how it supports Auro-3D speaker locations that I think Atmos misses out on like Center Height and Top Surround (both lock panning into place for off-axis seats). I would have preferred all three companies to have agreed on a common layout for all speaker locations, but we don't always get what we want.

All I know with absolute certainty is I'm happy to have Harry Potter in immersive sound with great overhead effects. I'd be happy if it was in Atmos too, but if DTS:X is what it has, that's fine. They both have put out some nice home soundtracks and both have had some relative stinkers and the ones that have both sound identical here so what's to complain about from a consumer standpoint other than the issue with Top Middle not typically being used by Disney on 7.1.6 systems?

Quote:
PS.. ... it is almost impossible to stream (meaning in real time over the “internet”) VBR video AND VBR lossless audio unless you can guarantee max bandwidth at all times, which is very hard to do unless you can control it (like on an optical disc or a closed network...).
It's hard to respond to what you wrote without taking note of the disclaimer bit about "in real time" when online movies don't need to be streamed in real time. iTunes, for example, loads into the Apple TV's buffer as fast as it can get the entire movie or TV show. If the bandwidth drops momentarily, it's usually not an issue because as long as your overall bandwidth being served is above what's needed, it will fill up ahead of time. Lossless compressed audio is roughly the same amount of space as a default Handbrake compression video setting (i.e. streaming type size). That means to stream it over a network, you would need roughly 2x the bandwidth as the lossy version of the movie. Apple recommends 25Mbps or higher for 4K movies on iTunes. A lossless audio version would probably stream at 60Mbps or higher, certainly. As long as the buffer (average rate) stays ahead of the real time rate, it shouldn't have any issues. I'd hardly call that impossible. That doesn't mean anyone will offer lossless any time soon. But the notion that DTS can't be streamed and Atmos can is just plain wrong. Fandango Now already has DTS streaming titles available. DTS:X supports more than just lossless tracks.

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Last edited by DrDon; 05-24-2020 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Condescending remarks removed
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post #58589 of 58868 Old 05-24-2020, 08:21 AM
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Let's stop the bickering NOW, please.

Discuss the topic and NOT EACH OTHER.

Questions or comments? PM me. Don't post those here.
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post #58590 of 58868 Old 05-24-2020, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
As a matter of fact the coming I now work for has built 5 “broadcast” centric Atmos rooms in the last two years and all of them are a bit bigger than most similar rooms around. That’s in addition to the other 6+ rooms and facilities I’ve seen come online.
Are the newer Atmos rooms focused on broadcast/streaming content mostly 7.1.4, or are they starting to move to 9.1.6 or even more channels?
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