The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1955 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #58621 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Moreover, my 4K Fire stick every shown song with Atmos label is telling me "playing in stereo, your device is not capable of Dolby Atmos playback", which is nothing different than before these unsatisfactory supposedly good news! Sigh! I am in Europe, Italy, btw (geo something related restrictions or limitations atm?)
From Tidal Support pages,
Quote:
What version of Fire OS is needed to support Dolby Atmos Music?

Your Fire TV device should be running Fire OS version 6 or later to enable support for Dolby Atmos Music. We always recommend updating your device to the latest release version available.
Fire TV Stick 4K is connected directly to the SR7011 or to the TV?

Tidal does not mention anything about some geographic limitations, only technical ones (app/OS versions and hardware compatibility).
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post #58622 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 08:03 AM
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Had an update pending on the Fire 4k, done ( Fire Os was yet on the 6. something, but I continued to load the update), restart, choose Best supported audio, restart, same situation. Reloaded settings, choose always show Dolby Digital Plus, restart, same situation.
And, yes, Fire TV is connected to the AVR, ..... using Amazon short extension Hdmi cable. Should I connect it directly without the Oem extension cable?
I have another Fire tv not 4K but the OS is showing no update and Fire OS Sw nr. is 5.2.7.3.
I am at a loss here (not a big trouble, I can apply whatsoever upmixer on the system, up to 9.3.8 channels, and I understand nowadays we have more annoying problems !), and knowing I could hear better signals is kind of frustrating, without reading the correct ATMOS envelope!
Thanks for your interest!
Regards
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Last edited by vn800art; 05-29-2020 at 08:08 AM.
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post #58623 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
....
There's definitely a question of whether music is suited to the surround format (i.e. guitars flying overhead into the back of the room is kind of absurd, for example), ....
....
Now what Atmos will do with music remains to be seen to some extent, but the sky is the limit. It could be awesome or it could be horrible. It depends on what they do with it.
Guitars flying overhead into the back, as well as other instruments flying, can be either absurd or fantastic, depending on the artistic work and the listener musical tastes.

I think that we, in general, are much more permissive for sounds flying when there is electronic music than for chamber orchestra music. Symphonic Rock, perhaps in the middle.

As an analogy, some abstract pictorial art can be worst that absurd for someone and an artwork for other.

I really enjoy with moving sounds all around the room, perhaps influenced by the need to amortize the investment in the whole equipment: "for me it has been worthy for music listening"

I like Aelita, also, but now listening for the recent Atmos releases from Max Cooper and Schiller, looking for more "aggressive" Atmos sound movement.
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post #58624 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
And, yes, Fire TV is connected to the AVR,
I do not know, maybe there are some updates that will come these days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
..... using Amazon short extension Hdmi cable. Should I connect it directly without the Oem extension cable?
Most probably the lack of cable will not make any difference, but you can try, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
..... and knowing I could hear better signals is kind of frustrating, without reading the correct ATMOS envelope!
I know the feeling.
I do not have any Fire device, today I will test Dolby Atmos Music via HEOS-Tidal integration (also in Europe), to see how it works, and report back.
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post #58625 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
That many speakers? How is it mixed?
Some part of it is mixed the traditional way by placing audio into specific channels. Other parts place sounds at specific locations in 3D space using audio objects. You can decide whether to play back the surround information using 2 surround speakers or 15 surround speakers. You can decide whether to play back height information using 2 height speakers or 10 height speakers.
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How does a trio group sound with overhead speakers?
Depends on how it was mixed. IF the sound mixed into the surrounds and heights was room ambience/reflections, then it will sound quite natural and realistic. If the mix was more gimmicky, then it will sound gimmicky. The format doesn't determine that, the mixer does. 2-channel recordings can sound ping-pong-y (like early "stereo") or create a completely natural soundstage. The mixer decides which.
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post #58626 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Struggling here, best I can have is DD+ 2channels 48Khz. Sometimes I have (depending on different songs) PCM 2 channels 88.2Khz. Nothing like Atmos. Sr7011 and yes, I have the full Tidal subscription (20 € / month).
Moreover, my 4K Fire stick every shown song with Atmos label is telling me "playing in stereo, your device is not capable of Dolby Atmos playback", which is nothing different than before these unsatisfactory supposedly good news! Sigh! I am in Europe, Italy, btw (geo something related restrictions or limitations atm?).
Somebody on this side of the pond, who could check?
Regards
Alessandro
My Firestick 4K also NOT working for TIDAL Dolby Atmos. I'm in Spain, but it does not seem to matter, I Hope.

See my description here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/112-s...l#post59726586
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post #58627 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 01:02 PM
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Tested today and I am unable to stream Dolby Atmos Music from a Tidal Hi-Fi subscription via HEOS on an Denon AVR-X3600H receiver - the HEOS app throws an error - attached.

I contacted Denon Europe and I wait for them to respond, but the HEOS module does not seem to be accepted by Tidal as a valid Dolby Atmos Music streaming device - it appears that the stream is valid strictly for the list of sources mentioned on the Tidal/Dolby website - but as mentioned above, even those sources do not work everywhere/Europe...
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post #58628 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Can you see the type of codec that Tidal uses to deliver Dolby Atmos Music on your receiver?
Not anything other than "Dolby Atmos/True HD". Nothing more specific than that (i.e. nothing to reveal the fixed bed layout + number of objects).
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post #58629 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 03:09 PM
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Thanks to @AYanguas for posting the link to the interesting thread on the specific subject!
And ... Congrats for the System You have setup, Sir!
Regards
Alessandro
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post #58630 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Not anything other than "Dolby Atmos/True HD". Nothing more specific than that (i.e. nothing to reveal the fixed bed layout + number of objects).

At least the Tidal streams seem to be lossless. Thank heaven for that. Now, if we could only get these Atmos albums on Blu-ray Audio without having to purchase ultra expensive boxed sets.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #58631 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 05:06 PM
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Got it working on my apple 4K. Had to uninstall/reinstall the Tidal app. Unfortunately for those without height speakers, it doesn't appear possible to get the 5.1 downmix. It seems to be Atmos or Stereo, no in-between.
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post #58632 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
At least the Tidal streams seem to be lossless. Thank heaven for that. Now, if we could only get these Atmos albums on Blu-ray Audio without having to purchase ultra expensive boxed sets.
For what it's worth, the Altitude shows the playback of the Atmos tracks as Atmos/Dolby TrueHD, 48 kHz, and 12.8 Mbps on all the Tidal tracks. Any thoughts about what to make of that?

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post #58633 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 08:29 PM
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It's nice if it's TrueHD. I can't tell on my Marantz.


Are you noticing the playback level is quite low on those tracks? I'm not noticing any larger dynamic range, just that the volume needs to be about 10 db higher than listening to stereo tracks.
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
It's nice if it's TrueHD. I can't tell on my Marantz.

Are you noticing the playback level is quite low on those tracks? I'm not noticing any larger dynamic range, just that the volume needs to be about 10 db higher than listening to stereo tracks.
I think that's because there's more speakers playing and an adjustment to the gain structure in the encoding. You're also up against less standards for "reference" for music than what is established for movies. But I will say that I put on one of the Prince live clips on the artist's playlist and it nearly blew me out of my sofa seat at the same set volume I'd had the REM and other Atmos clips.

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post #58635 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
For what it's worth, the Altitude shows the playback of the Atmos tracks as Atmos/Dolby TrueHD, 48 kHz, and 12.8 Mbps on all the Tidal tracks. Any thoughts about what to make of that?

Huh. Perhaps they thought a variable bitrate lossless encode streamed in real time wouldn't work and instead found a target average bitrate to have enough "headroom" for a variety of music needs and then instead made them fixed TrueHD bitrate encodes?



On a separate subject, from the home Dolby Atmos tech white papers that floated around during its debut, I believe the highest sampling rate available for consumer Atmos was 96 kHz at a bit depth of 16 or 24, so I'm not sure why the music tracks are all 48 kHz.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #58636 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
For what it's worth, the Altitude shows the playback of the Atmos tracks as Atmos/Dolby TrueHD, 48 kHz, and 12.8 Mbps on all the Tidal tracks. Any thoughts about what to make of that?


Tidal Atmos is DD+... the Apple TV is decoding to PCM which is why you see a bitrate of 12.9... TrueHD is a VBR codec, hence you wouldn’t see a single number like that.

I think there is a Trinnov bug that shows TrueHD when receiving PCM MAT...
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post #58637 of 58893 Old 05-29-2020, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Huh. Perhaps they thought a variable bitrate lossless encode streamed in real time wouldn't work and instead found a target average bitrate to have enough "headroom" for a variety of music needs and then instead made them fixed TrueHD bitrate encodes?

See my above post.

It is DD+... you can’t target a bitrate with a lossless codec... it “is what it is.”

One of the reasons it is difficult to stream a lossless codec like TrueHD or HD-MA is that you need to be
able to guarantee that the connection will provide the theoretical max bandwidth the codec supports.. for TrueHD it is around 24.5mbps... hard to guarantee over the internet.

In reality tracks very rarely peak about 6-7mbps... but you don’t have a way to control the size of the encode (except to “reject” titles that surpass what your service can reliably provide at all times..)

When you combine that with VBR video it becomes clear that streamed content really can’t reliably be streamed with lossless audio... at least with the current state of broadband in the US...
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post #58638 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
See my above post.

It is DD+... you can’t target a bitrate with a lossless codec... it “is what it is.”

One of the reasons it is difficult to stream a lossless codec like TrueHD or HD-MA is that you need to be
able to guarantee that the connection will provide the theoretical max bandwidth the codec supports.. for TrueHD it is around 24.5mbps... hard to guarantee over the internet.

In reality tracks very rarely peak about 6-7mbps... but you don’t have a way to control the size of the encode (except to “reject” titles that surpass what your service can reliably provide at all times..)

When you combine that with VBR video it becomes clear that streamed content really can’t reliably be streamed with lossless audio... at least with the current state of broadband in the US...

A font of knowledge. Thanks again for the insights.


It's really disappointing that at this stage of the internet ISP's cannot even guarantee a sustained transfer rate of 25 Mbps. That's why I still support HD and 4k discs (and encourage others to do so), among other reasons (like untethered ownership, usually better A/V quality, etc.).

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #58639 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 09:40 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
A font of knowledge. Thanks again for the insights.


It's really disappointing that at this stage of the internet ISP's cannot even guarantee a sustained transfer rate of 25 Mbps. That's why I still support HD and 4k discs (and encourage others to do so), among other reasons (like untethered ownership, usually better A/V quality, etc.).
I do a lot of Streaming from Amazon Prime, Dish, Netflix, CBS All Access, Acorn, You-tube, Turner Classic Movies etc.

Some of those have HDR and 4K content.
And some have in some cases excellent Audio.
And of course in some cases excellent Video.

My opinion is not one is "Equal to or Exceeds" Hard-Disc !!!

Terry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
A font of knowledge. Thanks again for the insights.


It's really disappointing that at this stage of the internet ISP's cannot even guarantee a sustained transfer rate of 25 Mbps. That's why I still support HD and 4k discs (and encourage others to do so), among other reasons (like untethered ownership, usually better A/V quality, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
I do a lot of Streaming from Amazon Prime, Dish, Netflix, CBS All Access, Acorn, You-tube, Turner Classic Movies etc.

Some of those have HDR and 4K content.
And some have in some cases excellent Audio.
And of course in some cases excellent Video.

My opinion is not one is "Equal to or Exceeds" Hard-Disc !!!

Terry
Well said Gents
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post #58641 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 12:20 PM
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But I will say that I put on one of the Prince live clips on the artist's playlist and it nearly blew me out of my sofa seat at the same set volume I'd had the REM and other Atmos clips.
Yeah, there seems to be quite a bit of variability as well. For the first few Rock/Pop Atmos tracks I tried I needed to crank them nearly to reference volume before they even started to sound loud. The Beethoven Symphonies on the other hand, use all that dynamic range as one may expect, being just as quiet in some passages but getting really, really loud in others at the same volume. They seemed to be the best sounding Atmos I've found on Tidal so far. I'll try and do a more careful comparison with my Karajan Blu-rays at some point in the future, but at first blush they sounded very similar.
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post #58642 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
On a separate subject, from the home Dolby Atmos tech white papers that floated around during its debut, I believe the highest sampling rate available for consumer Atmos was 96 kHz at a bit depth of 16 or 24, so I'm not sure why the music tracks are all 48 kHz.
96kHz would use extra bandwidth to transmit or store and provides literally zero audible benefit (we can't hear above 20kHz even with perfect hearing) so why would anyone use it unless they were using it as marketing propaganda to those that don't know any better?


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In reality tracks very rarely peak about 6-7mbps... but you don’t have a way to control the size of the encode (except to “reject” titles that surpass what your service can reliably provide at all times..)

When you combine that with VBR video it becomes clear that streamed content really can’t reliably be streamed with lossless audio... at least with the current state of broadband in the US...
If you pre-load the song (or movie) onto the hard/SS drive as fast as the overall connection will go, this is not much of an issue since it rarely stalls enough after a movie pre-buffer fill when your average speed is considerably higher than the amount needed as it's constantly loading the rest of the movie (or song) as fast as you connection will allow. AppleTV has done this since 2007 with both movies and music (even locally with lossless audio coding). With KODI locally streaming in "real time" it can hiccup here while I've almost never had any model AppleTV "hiccup" with music since 2007, Internet or local.

It's nearly bullet proof (short of your Internet or local network dumping for some reason). I suppose it might waste some bandwidth if you abandon the song early (loading it all when you don't use it all), but it solves a world of problems with "real time" streaming. And that was with a mere 15Mbps back then here (5Mbps with the first rental movies; they pre-loaded to the point it considered them safe to start and in 720p with 5Mbps for movies that typically took about 2 minutes. I've now got 166 Mbps for the same price. Everything starts instantly and an entire 4K movie can be loaded onto the drive in 20 minutes (5 minutes for 2K and songs almost instantly). You can't have an Internet hiccup if it's already loaded far ahead of that point onto your local drive.

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post #58643 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
If you pre-load the song (or movie) onto the hard/SS drive as fast as the overall connection will go, this is not much of an issue since it rarely stalls enough after a movie pre-buffer fill when your average speed is considerably higher than the amount needed as it's constantly loading the rest of the movie (or song) as fast as you connection will allow. AppleTV has done this since 2007 with both movies and music (even locally with lossless audio coding). With KODI locally streaming in "real time" it can hiccup here while I've almost never had any model AppleTV "hiccup" with music since 2007, Internet or local.



It's nearly bullet proof (short of your Internet or local network dumping for some reason). I suppose it might waste some bandwidth if you abandon the song early (loading it all when you don't use it all), but it solves a world of problems with "real time" streaming. And that was with a mere 15Mbps back then here (5Mbps with the first rental movies; they pre-loaded to the point it considered them safe to start and in 720p with 5Mbps for movies that typically took about 2 minutes. I've now got 166 Mbps for the same price. Everything starts instantly and an entire 4K movie can be loaded onto the drive in 20 minutes (5 minutes for 2K and songs almost instantly). You can't have an Internet hiccup if it's already loaded far ahead of that point onto your local drive.

Which all works fine when the video is lossy.

You can cap data rates all you want with video while still maintaining perfectly synchronized picture and sound.

You cannot do that with lossless audio.
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post #58644 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 06:31 PM
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According to audioholics, Dolby is eliminating the center spread feature from their 2020-and-beyond licensing agreements.

I haven't upgraded to Dolby Atmos yet, but I was looking forward to listening to 2-channel music upmixed via DSU, and this feature seems to be very instrumental in making that a more enjoyable experience.

Has anyone else heard this and what are your thoughts about it?
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post #58645 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 06:49 PM
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I finally added Middle Top Height speakers you go to 7.3.6 setup and I must say the effect is fantastic 1 the heights sound a lot more acitive and immersion especially in Atmos trailers is amazing.

I am so happy that I added the middle heights speakers they a really made a difference.

Posting this because when I had asked for opinions some had said that there is marginal benefit to 7.3.4 - I can categorically say that in my 18x18 room the difference is significant and not marginal by any stretch. If you have the room and equipment I highly recommend going with 6 overheads


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post #58646 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeman4 View Post
According to audioholics, Dolby is eliminating the center spread feature from their 2020-and-beyond licensing agreements.

I haven't upgraded to Dolby Atmos yet, but I was looking forward to listening to 2-channel music upmixed via DSU, and this feature seems to be very instrumental in making that a more enjoyable experience.

Has anyone else heard this and what are your thoughts about it?
I've got three identical front speakers (PSB T-45) and there is no audible difference here with center spread turned on from the MLP. The feature essentially moves much of the center material back into the mains like stereo. This probably improves things with "center channel speakers" that are typically inferior to the mains, but it also removes the purpose of the center speaker, which is to lock the imaging in the center for off-axis listeners.

With PLII variants, the amount moved was adjustable to taste. Here it's just on or off. IMO, you could achieve much of the same effect by just disabling your center channel speaker while listening to music with DSU. A partial center is a largely pointless center as it acts at best like an array and if your center is inferior for music, why would you want any of it playing?

With three identical front speakers, however, I hear zero difference on or off unless I sit off center in which case the music is anchored with spread off and pulls more to the nearest speaker with it on. I leave it off as it has no benefit whatsoever in my system. It only makes things worse off-axis. With flat wall hanging screens and projectors making it easier to have three identical front speakers, I can kind of see Dolby's thinking in getting rid of it as it would be confusing at best for many people.

I would just disable the center if you don't like how it sounds in DSU mode on newer AVRs. The PLII processing DSU is based on doesn't hard steer like PLI to begin with so music doesn't automatically lose width in my experience. But a non-identical center could do that.

My identical center speaker did not change the front stage imaging with it on or off or when compared to stereo (beyond the surround changes). That did require precise alignment and distance settings. If it's even slightly off you might notice imaging differences. It's also possible other systems/setups might behave a bit differently. I only have the one to try here.
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post #58647 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 07:55 PM
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This may be a stupid question but I am searching and can't find an answer. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get a Dolby TrueHD Ätmos 11.4 from a computer? No graphics cards have HDMI 2.1 connectors, and I can't find sound cards with HDMI connectors, so is it possible? I would rather do it digitally, because using analog outputs at the back of a PC always invites noise in my experience, but I can't even find a sound card that will give you 11.4 analog. I assume there is a way with everyone attaching their PCs to the TVs, but it is eluding me.
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post #58648 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by esumsea View Post
This may be a stupid question but I am searching and can't find an answer. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get a Dolby TrueHD Ätmos 11.4 from a computer? No graphics cards have HDMI 2.1 connectors, and I can't find sound cards with HDMI connectors, so is it possible? I would rather do it digitally, because using analog outputs at the back of a PC always invites noise in my experience, but I can't even find a sound card that will give you 11.4 analog. I assume there is a way with everyone attaching their PCs to the TVs, but it is eluding me.
You don't need HDMI 2.1 or even 2.0 to get Atmos output. I use MPC BE with bitstreaming several old computers and can output Atmos without and issue over HDMI and even display port (the display port connector is marked dp++)

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post #58649 of 58893 Old 05-30-2020, 10:08 PM
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Following an update that will start rolling out today, the Tidal Dolby Atmos Music service will be available through a wide range of streaming devices. These include Apple TV 4K; Fire TV Stick 4K; Fire TV Cube; Fire TV Stick (2nd gen); Fire TV (3rd gen); the Nvidia Shield TV or Nvidia Shield TV Pro (2019 or newer models); and Dolby Atmos-enabled Android TVs from Sony and Philips.
Well I installed the Tidal app on my 2019 Shield TV Pro and Sony Android TV and get the message "playing in stereo this device does not support Dolby Atmos".

Grrr.
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post #58650 of 58893 Old 05-31-2020, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Newflash (I think):
Tidal is supporting Dolby Atmos for a broad set of devices. See here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...E#77501f366cce

This is major news if it's true. And being able to play back on an Apple TV 4K or newer Nvidia shields will be a dealmaker. I've got a Trinnov with two pairs of side surrounds and left/right center, so maybe we'll be able tell if this is true Dolby Atmos with object passthrough..
..

That is really great news. Thanks for sharing. I guess many of us have been eagerly awaiting something like this to be released.
And what makes it even better: I just checked and it works outside the US as well :-).
Lets hope Denon gets the support for HEOS working relatively soon.
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