The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 1956 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #58651 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
That is really great news. Thanks for sharing. I guess many of us have been eagerly awaiting something like this to be released.
And what makes it even better: I just checked and it works outside the US as well :-).
Lets hope Denon gets the support for HEOS working relatively soon.

Dolby Atmos from TIDAL is working for me in Australia. From an Apple TV 4K.


Sends Atmos to my AV receiver as Dolby MAT 2.0 (PCM with Atmos).


Does anyone know if TIDAL are using DD+ or Dolby TrueHD as the codec?


If DD+, at what bitrate?


Either way, it sounds pretty great. Some of the remixes of catalog titles into Atmos are very good.


PS, for those that are interested, you have to sign up for the Hi-Fi package to get Atmos. The Premium package only gets you stereo. I'm on the free trial.

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post #58652 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
...
With three identical front speakers, however, I hear zero difference on or off unless I sit off center in which case the music is anchored with spread off and pulls more to the nearest speaker with it on. I leave it off as it has no benefit whatsoever in my system.

...

My identical center speaker did not change the front stage imaging with it on or off or when compared to stereo (beyond the surround changes). That did require precise alignment and distance settings. If it's even slightly off you might notice imaging differences. It's also possible other systems/setups might behave a bit differently. I only have the one to try here.
I agree, the effect is pretty subtle in a good setup and it may vanish entirely when everything is close to perfect. So these are quite valid arguments for not prioritizing the development of such a feature in the first place. HST, though my center speaker is not really inferior as such, I ended up turning center spread on. The center just has to be positioned way below ear level when combined with an acoustically intransparent screen. I find the subtle change caused by center spread in such a (probably pretty common) scenario quite pleasant.
So while withdrawing this feature is not the end of the world at all, one has to wonder about the rationale for this. Actively removing it from the code of all licensees products seems to be way more work than just keeping it in there for now. Lets hope it is to prepare the ground for something much better.
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post #58653 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 04:38 PM
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I am hearing mounting ceiling speakers is the best Atmos option. If I use the speakers I have on hand, I can mount them on the wall as heights using the wall mounts or I can mount them on the ceiling using the same wall mounts but securing the mount so the speaker wouldn't slip off. I can run speaker wire to the point I used to mount my projector and from there to the 4 speakers. It is a dedicated room so I'm not too worried about looks. I do have access to the jousts from my crawl space but they run the wrong way so wiring true ceiling speakers would be a challenge.

Would these speakers work well if mounted on the ceiling?

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I’m just starting to research this now that it seems my Onkyo PR-SC5508 had another HDMI board failure and I have a Marantz AV7705 arriving Thursday.

I will scan the thread and try some search terms but can’t see reading all 1952 pages.

If anyone wants to make quick recommendations for my initial setup while I’m getting up to speed, I would appreciate it.

I currently have FL, center (with bass bin), FR, RS, RR, LR, LS, 18” Subwoofer, 2 ea. 15” subwoofers calibrated as one sub. Speakers include an Infinity Compositions Prelude FL/C/FR and surrounds and two Infinity Cascade Model Three V's. I have 3 additional Infinity Cascade Model Three V’s available if they would work. I have a better set of 5 speakers in another room I can move to replace the Preludes but I want to try these first. I use the other room for my music listening.

My room is a sealed dedicated Theater in my Basement. Approximately 12’ 6” Wide, 18’ Long and a 7’ 10’ high ceiling. Main Listening position has my eyes just over 9 feet away from the screen.

Edit: I just set up my AV7705 and noticed I can configure a single speaker for Surround Back. I'm not opposed to new speakers but configuring a single rear back would give me 4 ea, Infinity Cascade Model Three V’s I could use for Heights. I'll need to find 3 amp channels somewhere. They do have wall mount brackets.

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post #58654 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHolland View Post
I am hearing mounting ceiling speakers is the best Atmos option. If I use the speakers I have on hand, I can mount them on the wall as heights using the wall mounts or I can mount them on the ceiling using the same wall mounts but securing the mount so the speaker wouldn't slip off. I can run speaker wire to the point I used to mount my projector and from there to the 4 speakers. It is a dedicated room so I'm not too worried about looks. I do have access to the jousts from my crawl space but they run the wrong way so wiring true ceiling speakers would be a challenge.

Would these speakers work well if mounted on the ceiling?

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-ctCym4...ver-gloss.html

Thanks.
The short answer is yes, but I would think suspending Infinity Cascade 3C's from the ceiling might be overly challenging because of their size, not that it can't be done. If you have them, then use them. If not, then there are simpler solutions to height ceiling speakers.
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post #58655 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 05:38 PM
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Thanks for the replies MagnumX and anothermib. It's nice to have a different perspective on the loss of this feature. I'll be careful about my center speaker choice when the time comes, and try to have it match my L/R fronts as close as possible.
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post #58656 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
Dolby Atmos from TIDAL is working for me in Australia. From an Apple TV 4K.


Sends Atmos to my AV receiver as Dolby MAT 2.0 (PCM with Atmos).


Does anyone know if TIDAL are using DD+ or Dolby TrueHD as the codec?


If DD+, at what bitrate?


Either way, it sounds pretty great. Some of the remixes of catalog titles into Atmos are very good.


PS, for those that are interested, you have to sign up for the Hi-Fi package to get Atmos. The Premium package only gets you stereo. I'm on the free trial.

TIDAL is using Dolby Digital Plus lossy.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #58657 of 58863 Old 05-31-2020, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by freeman4 View Post
Thanks for the replies MagnumX and anothermib. It's nice to have a different perspective on the loss of this feature. I'll be careful about my center speaker choice when the time comes, and try to have it match my L/R fronts as close as possible.
A lot of people like Auro-3D (and Auro-2D without the heights) for music (technically it's upmixer is really called "Auromatic" but most D&M AVRs just label the modes Auro-3D and Auro-2D (with heights and without heights). For non-discrete channels, it uses something closer to Yamaha's DSP modes (reverb and delay) to make this room seem more reflective in a positive controlled way while using whatever channels are discrete normally (i.e. 5.1 music recordings would use 5 speakers normally and reverb in the rest). It doesn't move instruments into "new" locations as such so it's more faithful to the original recordings in that regard while livening up the room (and for multiple rows, making it much more active as the front sounds pretty far away from the 3rd row here by comparison to the front row). I kind of prefer DSU if I want a bit of surround remapping (Neural X doesn't work as well, IMO as it has a tendency to move a lot of instruments overhead and sometimes voices downward despite my "dialog lift" feature, which is kind of odd, really. I switch back to DSU and vocals are dead center on the screen again. Neural X seems more behaved with movies for whatever reason, putting things upward that make sense, but with music, it's a mixed bag. DSU is the closest to PLIIx I had before, but still not the same. But even there, I only cared for the effect for synth/pop type stuff where there was a lot of out-of-phase stuff to begin with. More traditional stereo mixes (70-80% of the music out there, IMO) still sound best to me in stereo (MLP) or perhaps Auro's Auromatic (If I'm sitting anywhere else in the room).
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post #58658 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
I finally added Middle Top Height speakers you go to 7.3.6 setup and I must say the effect is fantastic 1 the heights sound a lot more acitive and immersion especially in Atmos trailers is amazing.

I am so happy that I added the middle heights speakers they a really made a difference.

Posting this because when I had asked for opinions some had said that there is marginal benefit to 7.3.4 - I can categorically say that in my 18x18 room the difference is significant and not marginal by any stretch. If you have the room and equipment I highly recommend going with 6 overheads
I suspect you'll find that your experience with the Atmos trailers will not be reflected with much real viewing content. In my experience, the Top Middle speakers were dead silent most of the time with a x.x.6 configuration. Most Atmos soundtracks are either hard-coded for 7.1.4 or fewer speakers (literally everything from Disney and all its subsidiaries, which is half of Hollywood today) or simply skip over Top Middles for some reason even if not.
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post #58659 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I suspect you'll find that your experience with the Atmos trailers will not be reflected with much real viewing content. In my experience, the Top Middle speakers were dead silent most of the time with a x.x.6 configuration.
That's a pity.

Quote:
Most Atmos soundtracks are either hard-coded for 7.1.4 or fewer speakers (literally everything from Disney and all its subsidiaries, which is half of Hollywood today)
I'd certainly take issue with "most". It seems to be common, sure. Either way, a subjective guess on the numbers.

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or simply skip over Top Middles for some reason even if not.
If it's not a "print out", then there's simply no mechanism for the track to tell the decoder "skip over the top middles". For any reason. They will either be used, or not, based on what's in the content.

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post #58660 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 07:13 AM
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If it's not a "print out", then there's simply no mechanism for the track to tell the decoder "skip over the top middles". For any reason. They will either be used, or not, based on what's in the content.
My point is that the content isn't using those speakers. The mixers are placing sound objects to stand near specific speakers without moving through others. I don't know why they would do this, but it happens all the time.

Case in point, watch the big helicopter climax of Mission: Impossible - Fallout with a x.x.6 config and unplug all of your ground speakers so you only hear the heights. The sounds of the helicopter rotors come almost exclusively from the Top Front and Top Rear with next to nothing from Top Middle. If you place your ear directly next to a TM speaker, you might hear the occasional sound effect very quickly zip through for a brief second, which proves that sound objects can go through the TM location, but the speakers then go silent again afterwards. Those brief effects are also typically not discernible from the seating position. It basically sounds like the helicopters are jumping from the front of the room to the back without touching the middle.

Most Atmos tracks don't use Front Wide speakers either. Home Atmos is effectively optimized for a 7.1.4 configuration, and attempts to expand beyond that become extremely frustrating.

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post #58661 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
I contacted Denon Europe and I wait for them to respond, but the HEOS module does not seem to be accepted by Tidal as a valid Dolby Atmos Music streaming device...
Denon UK has responded to me about the HEOS-Tidal-Atmos integration:
Quote:
Please note that this feature is currently not possible through the HEOS app. You can only play MQA TIdal through the Tidal app.
Then I asked them if there are at least plans for Atmos Music via HEOS-Tidal integration?

Marantz Europe has responded:
Quote:
There are currently no plans in place for this third party feature to be added.
Me: maybe in the future????

Marantz Europe:
Quote:
As previously advised there are currently no plans in place, but in future this may possibly change.
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post #58662 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Denon UK has responded to me about the HEOS-Tidal-Atmos integration:


Then I asked them if there are at least plans for Atmos Music via HEOS-Tidal integration?

Marantz Europe has responded:

Me: maybe in the future????

Marantz Europe:

Translation: You will have to buy a 2020 or 2021 model because we want you to keep upgrading even though we probably could send out firmware updates to some older compatible models. Just like D+M flagships and DTS: X Pro. Want Pro? Wait for the next flagship models.
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post #58663 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Wait for the next flagship models.


6-7 months have passed between the Echo-Atmos integration to the Tidal-Atmos integration. Maybe in the fall, HEOS will get Tidal-Atmos integration. And maybe not only for the 2020 models...
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post #58664 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:33 AM
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Just like D+M flagships and DTS: X Pro. Want Pro? Wait for the next flagship models.
Is this confirmed or speculation?

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post #58665 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:37 AM
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Is this confirmed or speculation?

I'm speculating based on prior D+M practices.
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post #58666 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Denon UK has responded to me about the HEOS-Tidal-Atmos integration:


Then I asked them if there are at least plans for Atmos Music via HEOS-Tidal integration?

Marantz Europe has responded:

Me: maybe in the future????

Marantz Europe:

I am not sure about these responses. Isn‘t MQA something entirely different and completely independent from Atmos? My understanding was that MQA is usually referring to their Master Quality, which is 96khz/24bit, which may be harder to implement without hardware changes. I am wondering if we didn’t get the standard response to a different question people may have been asking over the past years.
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Hi. Am a relative newbie in relation to home theatre. Can I ask what are the options I have in order to play Dolby Atmos sound (movies and music) with a soundbar and projector application? I intend to just keep things simple with regards to the sound system due to the lack of space.

What are the equipment one needs to have in order to make this work? Will I have to acquire an AV receiver that supports Dolby Atmos in order for Dolby Atmos to be supported on the soundbar?

Here is the list of my equipment - currently and considering purchases:
Source: Apple TV 4K
Soundbar: tbc (am considering either the Sonos Arc or B&O stage - or any other recommendations are more than welcome)
Projector: Epson EH-LS100 UST (likely to upgrade soon - which 4K UST projector would work well)

Is it right to assume that the projector may not have any role to play in the sound as such, I would just need to connect the Apple TV 4K directly to the Soundbar via HDMI (so as to receive the Dolby Atmos signal from the AT4K?), and from the soundbar via HDMI out (I am aware that the a Sonos Arc does not have an HDMI out) to the projector? Is this connection sequence even possible so that I can avoid the use of an AVR - which Dolby Atmos soundbar is capable of this?

Is an AVR absolutely necessary?

Appreciate everyone’s invaluable advice.

Thanks very much!

tj
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post #58668 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tjwm338 View Post
Hi. Am a relative newbie in relation to home theatre. Can I ask what are the options I have in order to play Dolby Atmos sound (movies and music) with a soundbar and projector application? I intend to just keep things simple with regards to the sound system due to the lack of space.

tj
The true Atmos enthusiasts will suggest/recommend an AVR to maximize the Atmos experience. However, it is also recognized that some may have a compromised environment to employ a full Atmos installation. The sound bar with Atmos capability fulfills this scenario. To this end, the following information/link may be of value to you. It is a start to the Atmos experience and could possibly expand to an AVR based Atmos system for you down the line when interest and space grow.

https://www.cnet.com/news/best-dolby...ndbar-of-2020/
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post #58669 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 12:27 PM
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My point is that the content isn't using those speakers. The mixers are placing sound objects to stand near specific speakers without moving through others. I don't know why they would do this, but it happens all the time.
That would seem to contradict what FilmMixer has said to me quite recently. Supposedly, only Disney limits Atmos. Everything else that properly uses Atmos is fully automatic to render properly, isn't it? I can't tell you what a "true" Top Middle renderer does on a given soundtrack, but with my "bastard hybrid" system, I can tell you that most Atmos tracks that do anything overhead whatsoever make full use of Top Middle in terms of phantom imaging or my Top Middle speakers (which extract the content using Dolby Pro Logic center channel extraction) wouldn't be so active all the time and they are probably as active or more active than the front/rear speakers in terms of things imaging in that vicinity. I doubt they are avoiding moving objects through Top Middle or I wouldn't get sounds there so much. I can't be certain their renderer behaves correctly, though as I have no true renderer to test here. Suffice to say, I'm glad I didn't buy a larger speaker count AVR/AVP if they work so poorly. I'll wait until I get a good review and a unit that has full use of DTS:X Pro that doesn't cost the price of a brand new car. My "Scatmos" system will more than suffice until then and the speakers are already placed and ready if that day comes.

I seriously doubt Disney is actually "half" of all Atmos soundtracks either. They're one (admittedly large these days) studio and much of their content is animated (cartoons). They also only make Atmos available on 4K content, which means very little of their content is even available in Atmos compared to other studios that put a lot more in Atmos, 2K or 4K and they also came late to the Atmos game compared to most other studios. Warner Brothers, Paramount, Sony, Lionsgate, all prior 20th Century Fox (and so far continuing even with their ownership) and even Universal have content in Dolby Atmos (some do both DTS:X and Atmos at times like Sony and Universal). Oddly, their Disney+ streaming soundtracks do seem to use objects, at least occasionally according to SDrucker on here. Maybe they just don't like using them on actual discs? Since the one man that claims to know their reasoning won't tell us, I guess we can keep speculating until someone else does decide to tell us.

Quote:
Case in point, watch the big helicopter climax of Mission: Impossible - Fallout with a x.x.6 config and unplug all of your ground speakers so you only hear the heights. The sounds of the helicopter rotors come almost exclusively from the Top Front and Top Rear with next to nothing from Top Middle. If you place your ear directly next to a TM speaker, you might hear the occasional sound effect very quickly zip through for a brief second, which proves that sound objects can go through the TM location, but the speakers then go silent again afterwards. Those brief effects are also typically not discernible from the seating position. It basically sounds like the helicopters are jumping from the front of the room to the back without touching the middle.
How can something directly overhead not be discernible from the seating position if you're sitting underneath or just in front of or behind that location? In a large room (where Top Middle is needed), that area will be almost silent without Top Middle speakers (I know this from my own setup). If you can hear sounds directly overhead, they're either coming from Top Middle or you don't actually need Top Middle to begin with, at least for the MLP (it'd still be useful for anchoring sounds off-axis).

Quote:
Most Atmos tracks don't use Front Wide speakers either. Home Atmos is effectively optimized for a 7.1.4 configuration, and attempts to expand beyond that become extremely frustrating.
They all use them here, even Auro-3D. Perhaps "real" rendering isn't all it's cracked up to be, after all. I'm glad I didn't wait and/or spend the extra money, apparently. I'm very happy with my audio system. I'm not happy with all soundtracks (many don't use much overhead at all or even the side and rear surrounds that much; they're 3-channel 90% of the time), but that's the guys mixing it that are responsible. In fact, I'd say one way or another, they're responsible for ALL of it (Disney included). Choose to do something half-arsed and you get half-arsed results every single time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Denon UK has responded to me about the HEOS-Tidal-Atmos integration:

Then I asked them if there are at least plans for Atmos Music via HEOS-Tidal integration?

Marantz Europe has responded:

Me: maybe in the future????

Marantz Europe:
Some of us know that it works just fine on AppleTV 4K units regardless of what D&M does. Anyone that bought D&M should have known they do not update new features on old products unless it was promised ahead of time. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for DTS:X Pro to appear for the Denon 8500 either given they didn't promise it ahead of time. Fortunately, if you own an appropriate 3rd party device (Apple, Amazon, etc.) Tidal works in Atmos already. If you have a 4K TV or Projector, FireStick 4K units aren't very expensive, especially when on sale. I bought the latter on sale just to get its remote (on sale it was cheaper than the remote all by itself) to use with my NVidia Shield (works great as a bluetooth remote although the microphone sometimes glitches). The rechargeable remote it came with needs charged far too often by comparison.

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post #58670 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 12:56 PM
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That would seem to contradict what FilmMixer has said to me quite recently. Supposedly, only Disney limits Atmos. Everything else that properly uses Atmos is fully automatic to render properly, isn't it?
I'm not talking about rendering. I'm talking about the sound mix itself. I never said anything was wrong with the renderer, rather that the sound mixers are choosing not to place their sound objects near certain speaker locations.

Quote:
How can something directly overhead not be discernible from the seating position if you're sitting underneath or just in front of or behind that location?
Because it's a very brief incidental sound that lasts about 0.5 seconds and is 1/10 the volume of the other speakers, only audible if you stand with your ear right up against the speaker.

Quote:
In a large room (where Top Middle is needed), that area will be almost silent without Top Middle speakers
Yes, precisely. That is what I'm saying. The top middle of the room is silent when the M:I Fallout soundtrack is played in x.x.6 configuration. And this is not an isolated incident. Many other Atmos soundtracks are mixed this way, even aside from Disney's known 7.1.4 print-outs.

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post #58671 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
That would seem to contradict what FilmMixer has said to me quite recently. Supposedly, only Disney limits Atmos. Everything else that properly uses Atmos is fully automatic to render properly, isn't it?
I'm not talking about rendering. I'm talking about the sound mix itself. I never said anything was wrong with the renderer, rather that the sound mixers are choosing not to place their sound objects near certain speaker locations.

Quote:
How can something directly overhead not be discernible from the seating position if you're sitting underneath or just in front of or behind that location?
Because it's a very brief incidental sound that lasts about 0.5 seconds and is 1/10 the volume of the other speakers, only audible if you stand with your ear right up against the speaker.

Quote:
In a large room (where Top Middle is needed), that area will be almost silent without Top Middle speakers
Yes, precisely. That is what I'm saying. The top middle of the room is silent when the M:I Fallout soundtrack is played in x.x.6 configuration. And this is not an isolated incident. Many other Atmos soundtracks are mixed this way, even aside from Disney's known 7.1.4 print-outs.
I have to wonder if some near-field mixers are under the mistaken impression that home Atmos is only capable of 7.1.4 and so they set up their Pro Tools sessions to make the objects behave incorrectly (as in not pan and locate objects through the complete 34.1 table).

Many Atmos encodes only use 11 of the 16 max object "slots" (according to the last documented info that FilmMixer has yet to debunk, bed channels are spatially compressed as part of counted object clusters as well). I wonder if that limitation of usable objects affects the rendering behavior of a particular Atmos track aside from locked printouts.

Perhaps if they used the 16 max setting in the Atmos session rather than 11 or 13 objects (as has shown up), you might get a better result with rendering engines designed for larger speaker systems.
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post #58672 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 03:00 PM
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I'm not talking about rendering. I'm talking about the sound mix itself. I never said anything was wrong with the renderer, rather that the sound mixers are choosing not to place their sound objects near certain speaker locations.
But that implies sounds never pan front to back in movies as they cannot skip over the "middle" without literally skipping it. Perhaps we've been watching entirely different movies? In any case, I've heard plenty of sounds directly overhead and panning front to back over the past few years (even if it's closer to the sides than the middle at times). Perhaps not every movie has many sounds directly overhead and I've certainly criticized the ones that do not use overheads well, but as I indicated, my "Scatmos" Top Middle speakers overall are very active, which flies 180 degrees to your statement that very few Atmos movies use those speakers. Hence, either there's a setting of some kind that's keeping the renderer from using Top Middle effectively (similar to what Disney does in effect, but perhaps not the same in how they do it?) or we've been watching different movies. If it pans either directly overhead in 7.1.4 or even to the sides "through" the middle area, it should also pan overhead in 7.1.6 (Disney notwithstanding) making use of those speakers as it goes through that area of the room. However, seeing as I don't have the software that mixes these soundtracks, I have no idea what other settings might be involved that could change the end result.

I do seem to recall at one point someone saying that Atmos mixes had to actually select the speakers to be included in the mix. In fact, I think it might have been SDrucker that indicated as such when he was asked about some of the speakers he's using above 7.1.4 on his Trinnov. I think he said very few mixes used some of extra front speakers (e.g. center left, center right, etc. or whichever ones he's using himself; I cannot recall exactly offhand). It would be very hard indeed for an Atmos mix to not use those speakers if they were indeed fully automatic as objects move anywhere around the front mix. Of course, it's possible that very objects are being used in the front, but they're being used as locked bed channels instead? But it almost sounded like a given mix had to have the speakers it used selected ahead of time as being part of the mix. In other words, if you mixed for Atmos with 7.1.4 plus Front Wides and Surround#2 enabled, it would use up to 11.1.4 speakers, but would do little or nothing with Top Middle or Surround#1. At the time, I dismissed that as my misunderstanding of what I was reading once I read how much supposed bother was put into Disney soundtracks to actually avoid using the extra speakers and stick to only 7.1.4. But it's certainly something that could be cleared up by FilmMixer or someone that's used the tools involved. So few processors support beyond 7.1.4 or 9.1.4 (until recently the 8500 was the only one that did 7.1.6 that I know of other than Trinnov) so there hasn't been a lot of commentary I've read by the average person about Top Middle in specific films, although certainly I've read many complaints about it being underutilized after the 8500 came out, but I assumed those were mostly with Disney soundtracks, not in general.

Quote:
Because it's a very brief incidental sound that lasts about 0.5 seconds and is 1/10 the volume of the other speakers, only audible if you stand with your ear right up against the speaker.
What about the moment in Overlord where the child drops the ball on the ceiling and it rolls from about the Front "Tops" location to about the Top Middle location directly overhead in the center of the room? Do you get sound panning in those locations there or is it limited only to the front of the room or pans only between the front and rear overheads, skipping Top Middle entirely? What about in Flatliners (Atmos version I think is streaming only) where right at 1 minute 30 seconds, the voices start commenting overhead about their near death experiences and they move all over the entire ceiling, passing through top middle over and over and over again along the way? What about the ships panning overhead front-to-back in Star Trek Beyond or the helicopters in Kong Skull Island? What about the flying Car in the 4K Atmos version of original Blade Runner flying directly overhead and front-to-back? Blade Runner 2049's flying car? How about the submarine explosions and the shark hitting the hull of the submarine at the early part of The Meg? Those sounds would have a giant "hole" in the middle if Top Middle isn't used in a large room. What about the "new life starting" sound in Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle (and again in the sequel) that "pings" directly overhead? Does it use Top Middle? All those use Top Middle here so if they're not using them on a real renderer, I'd say there's something odd going on indeed.

Quote:
Yes, precisely. That is what I'm saying. The top middle of the room is silent when the M:I Fallout soundtrack is played in x.x.6 configuration. And this is not an isolated incident. Many other Atmos soundtracks are mixed this way, even aside from Disney's known 7.1.4 print-outs.
So I guess we need to figure out if those soundtracks are panning things overhead in 7.1.4 and just not using the extra speaker (as if it weren't included in the mix) or if there's actually a hole in the panning even with 7.1.4 configurations. I'd have to go specifically try Mission Impossible Fallout to hear exactly what/where the rotors are in the chase scene (I just remember it sounding great overhead; I don't recall how they panned it specifically), but I do know the movies I mentioned above use my Top Middle speakers here.
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post #58673 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I'm not talking about rendering. I'm talking about the sound mix itself. I never said anything was wrong with the renderer, rather that the sound mixers are choosing not to place their sound objects near certain speaker locations.
But that implies sounds never pan front to back in movies as they cannot skip over the "middle" without literally skipping it. Perhaps we've been watching entirely different movies? In any case, I've heard plenty of sounds directly overhead and panning front to back over the past few years (even if it's closer to the sides than the middle at times). Perhaps not every movie has many sounds directly overhead and I've certainly criticized the ones that do not use overheads well, but as I indicated, my "Scatmos" Top Middle speakers overall are very active, which flies 180 degrees to your statement that very few Atmos movies use those speakers. Hence, either there's a setting of some kind that's keeping the renderer from using Top Middle effectively (similar to what Disney does in effect, but perhaps not the same in how they do it?) or we've been watching different movies. If it pans either directly overhead in 7.1.4 or even to the sides "through" the middle area, it should also pan overhead in 7.1.6 (Disney notwithstanding) making use of those speakers as it goes through that area of the room. However, seeing as I don't have the software that mixes these soundtracks, I have no idea what other settings might be involved that could change the end result.

I do seem to recall at one point someone saying that Atmos mixes had to actually select the speakers to be included in the mix. In fact, I think it might have been SDrucker that indicated as such when he was asked about some of the speakers he's using above 7.1.4 on his Trinnov. I think he said very few mixes used some of extra front speakers (e.g. center left, center right, etc. or whichever ones he's using himself; I cannot recall exactly offhand). It would be very hard indeed for an Atmos mix to not use those speakers if they were indeed fully automatic as objects move anywhere around the front mix. Of course, it's possible that very objects are being used in the front, but they're being used as locked bed channels instead? But it almost sounded like a given mix had to have the speakers it used selected ahead of time as being part of the mix. In other words, if you mixed for Atmos with 7.1.4 plus Front Wides and Surround#2 enabled, it would use up to 11.1.4 speakers, but would do little or nothing with Top Middle or Surround#1. At the time, I dismissed that as my misunderstanding of what I was reading once I read how much supposed bother was put into Disney soundtracks to actually avoid using the extra speakers and stick to only 7.1.4. But it's certainly something that could be cleared up by FilmMixer or someone that's used the tools involved. So few processors support beyond 7.1.4 or 9.1.4 (until recently the 8500 was the only one that did 7.1.6 that I know of other than Trinnov) so there hasn't been a lot of commentary I've read by the average person about Top Middle in specific films, although certainly I've read many complaints about it being underutilized after the 8500 came out, but I assumed those were mostly with Disney soundtracks, not in general.

Quote:
Because it's a very brief incidental sound that lasts about 0.5 seconds and is 1/10 the volume of the other speakers, only audible if you stand with your ear right up against the speaker.
What about the moment in Overlord where the child drops the ball on the ceiling and it rolls from about the Front "Tops" location to about the Top Middle location directly overhead in the center of the room? Do you get sound panning in those locations there or is it limited only to the front of the room or pans only between the front and rear overheads, skipping Top Middle entirely? What about in Flatliners (Atmos version I think is streaming only) where right at 1 minute 30 seconds, the voices start commenting overhead about their near death experiences and they move all over the entire ceiling, passing through top middle over and over and over again along the way? What about the ships panning overhead front-to-back in Star Trek Beyond or the helicopters in Kong Skull Island? What about the flying Car in the 4K Atmos version of original Blade Runner flying directly overhead and front-to-back? Blade Runner 2049's flying car? How about the submarine explosions and the shark hitting the hull of the submarine at the early part of The Meg? Those sounds would have a giant "hole" in the middle if Top Middle isn't used in a large room. What about the "new life starting" sound in Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle (and again in the sequel) that "pings" directly overhead? Does it use Top Middle? All those use Top Middle here so if they're not using them on a real renderer, I'd say there's something odd going on indeed.

Quote:
Yes, precisely. That is what I'm saying. The top middle of the room is silent when the M:I Fallout soundtrack is played in x.x.6 configuration. And this is not an isolated incident. Many other Atmos soundtracks are mixed this way, even aside from Disney's known 7.1.4 print-outs.
So I guess we need to figure out if those soundtracks are panning things overhead in 7.1.4 and just not using the extra speaker (as if it weren't included in the mix) or if there's actually a hole in the panning even with 7.1.4 configurations. I'd have to go specifically try Mission Impossible Fallout to hear exactly what/where the rotors are in the chase scene (I just remember it sounding great overhead; I don't recall how they panned it specifically), but I do know the movies I mentioned above use my Top Middle speakers here.
You have the wrong kind of setup to be judging or speculating what should or shouldn't be in a particular set of speakers given your Scatmos "kludge," sorry to say.

It gives you a false sense of panning movement since matrix extraction behaves differently than discrete Atmos rendering processors used in the latest >7.1.4 units. You're forcing something to be in a particular location that may or may not be there in actuality if listening via a more advanced Atmos theater.
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post #58674 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 03:59 PM
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Hi All
Can someone with a 7.2.6 set up give some feedback on the use of TM speakers on films
I know Disney fix their films for 7.2.4 so
Other films and examples of when TM are used
Regards
H
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post #58675 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 05:12 PM
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You have the wrong kind of setup to be judging or speculating what should or shouldn't be in a particular set of speakers given your Scatmos "kludge," sorry to say.
There is also NO fundamental difference between phantom imaging and hard imaging in terms of locations or how they sound within the limits of angles between speaker pairs that produce a solid phantom image for the MLP. Dolby Atmos's "extra" speakers only provide hard discrete sources for phantom imaging locations as they are all situated within the same exact rectangular plane. Thus, there are no other "new locations" for these speakers to image. They either phantom image in those locations or they hard image in those locations. Both sound the same to the MLP so long as the phantom imaging is solid. In larger rooms, this makes all the difference in the world as phantom images start to fall apart when the stereo pair combinations are too far from each other. In angular terms, that is about 120 degrees maximum, but it gets weaker closer to 90 degrees with larger rooms. For off-axis seating, having more hard sources produces more accurate imaging than phantom imaging due to the precedence effect. Discrete works better in this regard, but steered logic is very close to discrete while matrixing is still better than phantom imaging alone.

You keep saying I have matrixing for Top Middle, when this is absolutely false. I have steered logic that is very close to discrete (minimal leakage). There is very little difference between discrete rendering and Pro Logic Steering logic, which is most certainly NOT "matrixing" (which is the summation of two signals that rejects decorrelated material and combines correlated material up to a +3dB difference to a new channel created in-between). The steering logic mechanism sounds very close to discrete as anyone who has ever used Pro Logic modes (or even DSU or Neural X as the both "steer" dialog and other correlated sounds to the center speaker from a 2-channel mix). Matrixed channels only remove 50% of the precedence effect (due to arrayed information still coming out of the source channels), but are still an improvement for off-axis seats over phantom imaging which suffer the full effect of the precedent effect. Thus, having matrixed front wides is still more accurate than having no front wides for off-axis seats. For the MLP, however, there is literally no difference whatsoever between the two unless the angular distance is too large for phantom imaging at which point having matrixed speakers also improves imaging with a more solid pan. There is nothing "less accurate" in either method over plain vanilla 7.1.4 limited imaging. There are no new imaging locations so there is no possible "false panning" or other such blatant abject nonsense that you are suggesting. It's clear to me you know very little of the subject, but that hasn't stopped you from trying to talk down to me anyway.

Quote:
It gives you a false sense of panning movement since matrix extraction behaves differently than discrete Atmos rendering processors used in the latest >7.1.4 units. You're forcing something to be in a particular location that may or may not be there in actuality if listening via a more advanced Atmos theater.
How can I possibly get a "false sense of movement" ??? Movement requires a change in levels and/or phase (signal correlation). It cannot move magically on its own. Do you not get dialog out of the center of your two speakers without or without an actual center channel speaker as long as you sit in the MLP??? How is that a false sense of panning movement in a Pro Logic system if something pans left to right through the center speaker? The center speaker is not there for the MLP's benefit. Phantom centers work fine for just one person. The center speaker is there to lock the center dialog (and any effects) for anyone else in the room. For the MLP with three identical speakers, it sounds exactly the same with or without the center speaker. This is exactly what I was talking about in terms of the DSU "center spread" effect, which has no effect at all for the MLP with three identically matched speakers that are time aligned. It only changes the imaging for non-matching speakers (either model and/or time alignment). This is easy to hear if you actually set it up correctly. So if Pro Logic type steering works perfectly the same when things are correctly aligned, how can it possibly generate a "false sense of movement?" I'd love to hear your explanation because it's not possible.

Meanwhile, your use of the word "kludge" serves not other purpose but to insult my system and others that have a solution that apparently works far better and far more reliably than Dolby's actual "kludge" which is "print-through" soundtracks, which defeat the entire point of having an object based renderer system in the first place! "Scatmos" (steered logic to channels between two discrete ones) is not a kludge anymore than Dolby Pro Logic is a kludge to get near discrete center dialog. You insult Dolby's original surround technology when you talk about it that way and I doubt they would appreciate it either, particularly when it's clear you don't even understand what it does or you wouldn't keep calling steered logic "matrixing" which is something else entirely (again the summation of two audio signals that eliminate uncorrelated material and create up to a +3dB extra channel between two existing channels for correlated material whereas steered logic removes nearly all correlated material from the two channels the signal is created from and puts them in a new channel, creating something very close to discrete as the end result).

The very notion that you imply with that "false sense of movement" is that things can somehow pan from the front of the room to the back of the room without passing through the Top Middle speaker part of the room. How does it avoid that middle zone of the room when panning? It can either not use the speaker and pan through just front/rear heights/tops or it can pan through the top middle speakers themselves. It should do the latter and that is the crutch of the situation with Disney soundtracks not using them. However, Disney soundtracks do pan front to rear without that speaker and if you use Pro Logic steering to extract a center channel in the same manner as a front center channel speaker, it does the same exact thing. It takes the imaging that pans through the middle and sends it to a hard speaker instead of phantom imaging. What is supposed to be "false" about that? What difference does it make if you render to that speaker or extract it to that speaker? It sounds exactly the same. Anything else can only be attributed to you not having heard it and thus think it does something other than what it actually does. Yet when it's pointed out to you how it works you not only ignore it, you openly mock it.

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post #58676 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 05:14 PM
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Sigh.
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post #58677 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 08:30 PM
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what are some of the best pieces of media to play to show off Atmos? Once I'm set up I'll want some movies/etc to test it.
Spider-Man-into the spiderverse is my go to showing off atmos and also very vibrant HDR as well. One of the best demo discs out there
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post #58678 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:53 PM
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Hi All
Can someone with a 7.2.6 set up give some feedback on the use of TM speakers on films
I know Disney fix their films for 7.2.4 so
Other films and examples of when TM are used
Regards
H

I really like it. I watched Bladerunner 2049 and MMFR and it sounded fantastic.

If you can go 6 overhead by all means go for it. Even if Disney messes it up, for streaming content using DSU the TMs are nicely used


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post #58679 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 09:55 PM
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Spider-Man-into the spiderverse is my go to showing off atmos and also very vibrant HDR as well. One of the best demo discs out there

Bladerunner 2049 and MMFR for me are the absolute best movie content. Dolby Amaze trailer also makes my visitors say wow’


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post #58680 of 58863 Old 06-01-2020, 11:17 PM
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I'm speculating based on prior D+M practices.
D+M have been nothing short of fantastic over the last 4yrs for me, updated fully functional stable pre/pro's plus a few extra's I never asked for. Concerning DTS Pro it was discussed a few months back it's coming to the 8805
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