The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 220 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6571 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tronic307 View Post
That's awesome! Do you think Stradas would be overkill? (especially if they were to fall on you) I'm curious as to how to securely mount those to the ceiling.
IMHO you can use that if you don't mind big stuff on your ceiling ... And anyway since the crossover is pretty high, are they needed?
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post #6572 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 04:50 PM
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Realistic or unrealistic Dolby Atmos Setup with Cathedral Ceiling

Please find 3D rendering (by my son) showing our Cathedral ceiling which is at a 45 degree angle conjoined by a center 3ft flat ceiling that attaches both ceilings. We currently have a 7.1 system with the rear speakers in the angled ceiling. With so called angled Dolby enabled modules for our fronts, is it possible to reflect Atmos sound off that flat portion of the ceiling. Does it make sense to use the rear surrounds as rear Dolby Atmos speakers? Please comment on the two 3D renderings provided below. In this configuration is it possible to get some Atmos immersive sound? Any comments would be appreciated. The projected path of the sound is in red.Seating area is 15ft from front speakers and 6ft from rear surrounds.Rear surrounds are 9ft from floor and about 6ft from ones ears.Side surrounds are high up(about 13ft from floor) due to picture window on one side-Flat ceiling is about 16ft from floor.Our listening area is under the flat ceiling.




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post #6573 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Please find 3D rendering (by my son) showing our Cathedral ceiling which is at a 45 degree angle conjoined by a center 3ft flat ceiling that attaches both ceilings. We currently have a 7.1 system with the rear speakers in the angled ceiling. With so called angled Dolby enabled modules for our fronts, is it possible to reflect Atmos sound off that flat portion of the ceiling. Does it make sense to use the rear surrounds as rear Dolby Atmos speakers? Please comment on the two 3D renderings provided below. In this configuration is it possible to get some Atmos immersive sound? Any comments would be appreciated. The projected path of the sound is in red.Seating area is 15ft from front speakers and 6ft from rear surrounds.Rear surrounds are 9ft from floor and about 6ft from ones ears.Side surrounds are high up(about 13ft from floor) due to picture window on one side-Flat ceiling is about 16ft from floor.Our listening area is under the flat ceiling.
toothsavers,


A 16ft ceiling height is really pushing the boundaries of Atmos enabled speakers. They are designed for ceilings 8 to 9 feet high but have been tested up to 14ft. At 16ft I would really recommend you look into ceiling mounted speakers with directional brackets to enable adjustment of the speaker directivity. The rear ceiling speakers may work, but I would wait for the Dolby installation white paper due out on Monday. Hopefully we will all have a better understanding of the specific requirements. In addition you may want to look at lowering your side surrounds if at all possible, the current understanding is around ear level or possibly 1 to 2 feet above to create as much separation between the different layers of sound. Nice 3D rendering by the way, what program did your son use?
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post #6574 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
However, surrounds and (per one of FilmMixer's prior posts) Atmos speakers are still expected to deliver peaks up to 105dB at the listening position when listening at reference level.
The question then becomes, who among us plays their systems at reference level? I for one have never done that, and never intend to do so. -10 dB is enough for me.

BTW, SMPTE observes that "reference" level should be derated as the room gets smaller to achieve the same perceived effect. I have not seen a precise chart, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 dB would probably not be too far off.

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post #6575 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UKTexan View Post
The specs below are taken from the cinema Atmos white paper. As you can see, individual surround speakers, including Top surround as Dolby terms them, only need to achieve 99dB in a movie theater, I cant see the reference level being raised to 105dB for the home theater. Arrays are to achieve 105dB, but again in the home, the requirements may differ.
The problem is that at home, one speaker will usually be all there is to carry the full array's sound -- just as happens today with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. So the 105 dB requirement remains in effect.

I will mention that due to traditional cinema calibrations, the peak modulation for surrounds was set 3 dB lower than for the main channels, 82 dB vs 85 dB for -20 dBFS. That means content was limited to 102 dB in the surrounds vs. 105 dB in the screen channels.

That bit of arcane calibration tradition has finally been retired with the advent of Atmos (and MDA) systems, and all speakers are now to be set for -20 dBFS = 85 dB SPL. That in effect raises the surround headroom 3 dB.
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post #6576 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Please find 3D rendering (by my son) showing our Cathedral ceiling which is at a 45 degree angle conjoined by a center 3ft flat ceiling that attaches both ceilings.


That definitely won't give you optimal results. With that ceiling, you will want to use surface mount speakers that you can aim properly to achieve the recommended angles. The angle on the rear speakers is way off and the cathedral ceiling will mess with the sound of the front modules.


Will Dolby Atmos enabled speakers work in my room?

Dolby Atmos enabled speakers can produce an incredibly accurate Dolby Atmos experience in many kinds of rooms. You’ll get the best sound if your ceiling is flat (not vaulted or angled) and made of an acoustically reflective material, such as standard drywall, plaster, concrete, or wood. While we designed the technology for rooms with ceiling heights of 8 to 9 feet (2.4 m to 2.7 m), our testing indicates that you can still hear incredible Dolby Atmos sound in rooms with ceilings as high as 14 feet (4.3 m), though the effect may become more diffuse in rooms with higher ceilings.
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post #6577 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Just looked at the product sheet for the Onkyo:
Output Sound Pressure Level: 81dB/W/m
Rated Input Power: 25W
Max. Input Power: 100W

I think its fair to say 105dB isn't going happen.
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
With a sensitivity of 81dB w/ 1W and 25W rated input power, the Onkyo can deliver 95dB...at 1 meter and mum is the word on distortion. By those basic numbers alone, assuming you've got a fair sized theater space, the odds aren't in your favor.
The spec of interest is Max Input Power. That's 20 dB higher than the 1W needed for 81 dB (at 1 M). So it "should" be able to produce 101 dB at some frequencies anyway. Still not 105, but better than 95.

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post #6578 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Max input power is indeed 100W, but what does that mean, particularly given the presence of the "rated" figure? Max it will take without slagging the VC?
Onkyo will have to tell us what rated 25W means. I suspect that means long term power capacity, and the 100W short tern peaks. But why not tell us, like the big boys do at Harman, Tannoy...

Quote:
I think it's fair to say that the odds are in my favor that 100W doesn't represent the amount of power the Onkyo module can take while delivering a linear increase in volume for the power input as well as keeping a cap on distortion.
Probably not. They should tell us.

Quote:
Of course even assuming the Onkyo module can cleanly deliver 101dB, it's still at 1 meter, not the listening position. If you figure a 4m distance to the listening position, you're looking at a theoretical loss of 12dB, dropping you down to 89dB. Now being in room helps with that, but you can't readily predict how much. Not exactly a compelling solution in my book, even if you're listening at -10dB from reference.
I agree with all of that.
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post #6579 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 08:48 PM
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Let's be realistic here. What end user who is serious about reaching clean reference level output at their home theater is going to be buying the entry level Onkyo modules?

The target market market for these is at best your mid level living room compromise HT, and these types of setups rarely go above -20db. It's not a particularly demanding task, and IMHO anyone interested in real high fidelity near reference output (if they aren't installing actual on ceiling speakers) is going to start with the $500+ type units like the AT model.
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post #6580 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 09:11 PM
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BTW (will cross post in Denon thread as well) -- I popped into my local Best Buy Magnolia Design Center here in San Diego (Mission Valley location) this evening. I asked the two reps if they had the DT A60 modules, and they are in fact IN STOCK right now. I almost bought them just to test out (and may still do so).

I also asked if they were going to set up an Atmos demo room since they had them in stock and they said they weren't going to. I pointed out that their speaker demo room already has in-ceiling speakers plus speakers all over each wall which would make it easy to do Atmos... but they noted that it isn't so easy because of their speaker switching system (all the in-ceiling speakers will be hooked up to FR/FL to be demo'd for stereo music playback) so they'd really have to do a dedicated room, and that wasn't going to happen at this point. They also told me (not surprised) that I was the first person to ever ask them about Atmos.

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post #6581 of 55608 Old 09-06-2014, 10:33 PM
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I have a question:

If I can't position the four Atmos ceiling speakers in the middle of the room, but I can use my cove false ceiling to install them, nearer the side walls, and aim them more towards the centre, will that work?

That way, I don't need to cut into the ceiling...

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post #6582 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Volume is one side of it, but I'm definitely interested to see the FR of some of these full range 3" models as well. Most paper cone drivers in that range that I've seen start breaking up around the 10kHz mark, which is smack dab in the middle of where Dolby's DSP is working its magic. I posted one example of this earlier. I'm interested to know how this will compare subjectively with a two-way Atmos enabled speaker.
Yes, all full range driver cones do break up, even way below 10kHz. It is part of how they work. Lots of full range drivers have a horrible response at high frequencies but there are also drivers that are very smooth.

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post #6583 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The problem is that at home, one speaker will usually be all there is to carry the full array's sound -- just as happens today with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. So the 105 dB requirement remains in effect.

I will mention that due to traditional cinema calibrations, the peak modulation for surrounds was set 3 dB lower than for the main channels, 82 dB vs 85 dB for -20 dBFS. That means content was limited to 102 dB in the surrounds vs. 105 dB in the screen channels.

That bit of arcane calibration tradition has finally been retired with the advent of Atmos (and MDA) systems, and all speakers are now to be set for -20 dBFS = 85 dB SPL. That in effect raises the surround headroom 3 dB.
That was exactly my thinking: in home cinema, an array = a speaker. This would be different if/when the full arsenal of up to 34 speakers are installed, but in 7.2.4 (or my optimum 9.2.6 layout maybe one day) I will very much stick to the standard.

I have received 8 Eminence Beta 10CX woofers for building the surrounds and on-ceiling speakers. Sealed Volt V-10 for ceiling and I am looking into a passive radiator version of it for the surrounds. This means I can use a 80 Hz crossover (the ceilings will have enhanced bass from their 2∏ setting) and still hit reference since these are 95 dB/W sensitive. They are good for up to 500 Watt peaks. With 200 Watt Emotiva power, these will do 110 dB at MLP. That should be adequate.

And these woofers are only $70 BTW. Add about the same for tweeter and crossover. Those top-firing modules seem awfully expensive looking at their limited capacity.

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post #6584 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Max input power is indeed 100W, but what does that mean, particularly given the presence of the "rated" figure? Max it will take without slagging the VC? I think it's fair to say that the odds are in my favor that 100W doesn't represent the amount of power the Onkyo module can take while delivering a linear increase in volume for the power input as well as keeping a cap on distortion. Of course even assuming the Onkyo module can cleanly deliver 101dB, it's still at 1 meter, not the listening position. If you figure a 4m distance to the listening position, you're looking at a theoretical loss of 12dB, dropping you down to 89dB. Now being in room helps with that, but you can't readily predict how much. Not exactly a compelling solution in my book, even if you're listening at -10dB from reference.
Thanks for your response.It is very obvious to me attaining "optimal" results with my type of ceiling is totally out of the question.The question then becomes is it worth attaining "some" Dolby Atmos immersive affect with my current layout?I cannot install in ceiling speakers nor lower my surrounds.I currently have a Denon 4311ci receiver with NHT 2.5 fronts and in wall/in rear ceiling speakers that were all installed during construction of this added on family room which is about 500sq ft.We are thrilled with our current surround sound movie watching experience.We have a large volume of space to be filled with sound.I was hoping of upgrading(wife doesn't think it is necessary) to include a new Atmos receiver and 2 enabled front modules to reflect sound off the flat portion of our ceiling.Will I create a sound field MESS if I enter the Dolby Atmos ring?I feel every early adopter will go thru a trial and error scenario with this new sound adventure and most experiences will be with non optimal settings.I guess that personal experimentation (actual family listening) will be the deciding factor.Would anybody utilize this same approach or just eliminate the Dolby Atmos scene altogether because of our room limitations?.( My son uses Blender,Unitiy,z brush programs for 3-d.He works with his brother in their App developing company which has a world-wide reputation) Thanks for any opinions!

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post #6585 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by UKTexan View Post
toothsavers,


A 16ft ceiling height is really pushing the boundaries of Atmos enabled speakers. They are designed for ceilings 8 to 9 feet high but have been tested up to 14ft. At 16ft I would really recommend you look into ceiling mounted speakers with directional brackets to enable adjustment of the speaker directivity. The rear ceiling speakers may work, but I would wait for the Dolby installation white paper due out on Monday. Hopefully we will all have a better understanding of the specific requirements. In addition you may want to look at lowering your side surrounds if at all possible, the current understanding is around ear level or possibly 1 to 2 feet above to create as much separation between the different layers of sound. Nice 3D rendering by the way, what program did your son use?
Thanks for your response.It is very obvious to me attaining "optimal" results with my type of ceiling is totally out of the question.The question then becomes is it worth attaining "some" Dolby Atmos immersive affect with my current layout?I cannot install in ceiling speakers nor lower my surrounds.I currently have a Denon 4311ci receiver with NHT 2.5 fronts and in wall/in rear ceiling speakers that were all installed during construction of this added on family room which is about 500sq ft.We are thrilled with our current surround sound movie watching experience.We have a large volume of space to be filled with sound.I was hoping of upgrading(wife doesn't think it is necessary) to include a new Atmos receiver and 2 enabled front modules to reflect sound off the flat portion of our ceiling.Will I create a sound field MESS if I enter the Dolby Atmos ring?I feel every early adopter will go thru a trial and error scenario with this new sound adventure and most experiences will be with non optimal settings.I guess that personal experimentation (actual family listening) will be the deciding factor.Would anybody utilize this same approach or just eliminate the Dolby Atmos scene altogether because of our room limitations?.( My son uses Blender,Unitiy programs for 3-d.He works with his brother in their App developing company which has a world-wide reputation) Thanks for any opinions!
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post #6586 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
A wide range of conditions includes a wide range of content and playback levels.
How wide a range of content can someone be expected to use in a 20 minute demo? As movies were being demoed it seems to me that their close-to-reference level was ideal.
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post #6587 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Well, let's start with:

and add in:


Now combine that with your general approach to our conversation. When I pointed out that Atmos channels have to play at reference levels per FilmMixer, you wonder if the Onkyo can play at reference level simply because it has the Atmos name slapped on it; to that I provided specs all but stating it can't. When you stated that the Onkyo demo was "loud enough", I pointed out that it was still a controlled demo. For some reason, you think pointing out the ordinary nature of the equipment and room negates that the demo was planned out, and that you weren't in control of the content and the volume. So yeah, add all that up and it appears to me that you absolutely are approaching things from the position that the Onkyo is "all you need" and getting pretty defensive when I point out some of the glaring issues of using a full range 3" paper cone driver.

PS: I see you can't help but bring AH into our convo. Great form....again. If you've got something constructive to add, I'm all ears. Otherwise...nice talking with you.
So nowhere did I ever say that Onkyo was "all you need". Thanks for confirming that, even in a long-winded, roundabout way.
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post #6588 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by UKTexan View Post

At the retail demo I attended we listened to the demo material at low volume levels, well below reference for the first run. The volume was then raised to just below reference for the 2nd run. The immersion was fantastic at both volume levels but really shone as the volume was cranked up.
I sat through two separate customer demo's and when finished I played around for another 45 to 50 minutes with my own material, Gravity and The Dark Knight to experience the Dolby Surround upmixer - spectacular!
Dolby had no control over volume levels, speaker brand (Definitive Tech) or my choice of legacy demo material. I wouldn't be so cynical until hearing a demo with a relatively well set up room, it was certainly not a controlled demo, by any means.
In the demo I attended, 5.2.4, the ceiling speakers were approximately 2.4m (7.8ft) apart (front to back), Top front speakers approximately 1m (3.2ft) in front of the 1st row of seats, the rear ceiling speakers approximately 0.5m (1.6ft) behind the 2nd row. The speakers were approximately 2.2m (7.2ft) in width, more or less in line with the Left and Right front speakers.
Not a perfect setup by any means but the results were great and I sat in two different locations, both dead center and also to the far right.
I have not heard the up firing Atmos enabled speakers but from reports on AVS and also a gentlemen who has been involved with Dolby over the last two years, the effects are very close to actual ceiling speakers.

All I'm saying is keep an open mind, AH seems to be more one sided than the reporting on CNN regarding Atmos!
Enjoy the show and report back so we can all hear about your experiences.
The interesting thing is how those who have heard Atmos for the home are almost universally positive about it, while those who haven't heard it seem to feel they are qualified to comment on the demos they didn't attend. One can draw one's own conclusions. The word 'agenda' comes to my mind.
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post #6589 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:46 AM
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Are you adding to the discussions or trying to get under our skin all Keith said was if up firing speaker A does the same job as speaker B why spend the extra money
Yes that is pretty much what I said. You need speakers that can do the job they are deployed for. Personally, I would probably want something better than the Onkyos, but I listen at -5dB in a well-treated room and have substantial amplification. Not everyone does and so, for them, the Onkyo modules may work well.

There seems to me to be a subtext going on in the posts of some members (and, of course, some external sites!), which is to subtly discredit various aspects of Atmos even though they have no personal experience of it. This ranges from "upfiring speakers can’t possibly work" to "this particular speaker is no good", to "there will be little or no content", to "most Blurays have DTS tracks so Atmos can't ever go mainstream" and so on and on. My answer to these people is simple: you haven't heard it, I have. When they have heard it, I will probably be more inclined to take some notice of their comments.
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post #6590 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Keith specifically asked where he said that the Onkyo was all anybody needed. I'd say that quote is darned near close to verbatim given that the Onkyo was one of the upfiring models that he demoed. Of course I'm not sure why this is getting under your skin. Keith seems perfectly capable of speaking for himself.
I am - and I never said the Onkyo modules were "all you need", as is evidenced by your inability to quote me saying it.
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post #6591 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Please find 3D rendering (by my son) showing our Cathedral ceiling which is at a 45 degree angle conjoined by a center 3ft flat ceiling that attaches both ceilings. We currently have a 7.1 system with the rear speakers in the angled ceiling. With so called angled Dolby enabled modules for our fronts, is it possible to reflect Atmos sound off that flat portion of the ceiling. Does it make sense to use the rear surrounds as rear Dolby Atmos speakers? Please comment on the two 3D renderings provided below. In this configuration is it possible to get some Atmos immersive sound? Any comments would be appreciated. The projected path of the sound is in red.Seating area is 15ft from front speakers and 6ft from rear surrounds.Rear surrounds are 9ft from floor and about 6ft from ones ears.Side surrounds are high up(about 13ft from floor) due to picture window on one side-Flat ceiling is about 16ft from floor.Our listening area is under the flat ceiling.
IDK the answer to your question (which is probably, I suspect, "maybe") but at the London Dolby Atnos demos I was surprised at how small an area of ceiling they used to bounce the sound off. If you look at my second report, you'll see pictures that show what I mean. I’d be wary of taking that as a definite 'yes' to your question, but your idea may well work. I think you'd have to try it to be sure. Having parts of the ceiling at different angles to each other are usually problematic, so it may also be the case for Atmos. Remember you can do an Atmos setup with just two ceiling speakers (5.1.2 or 7.1.2) so you might be OK with that 3 feet area of flat ceiling, for just two speakers. 2 ceiling speakers isn't ideal, but it will be better than what we have currently.

I agree with UKTexan that 16 feet is too high for upfirers so you would have to try physical speakers.

WRT to UKTexan;'s remark about lowering the surrounds, that is indeed the general advice. But the reason is to obtain separation between the surrounds and the overheads, when one has a typical 8ft ceiling. With your 16 ft ceiling you probably have that separation already so can leave the surrounds where they are (as they do in commercial cinemas).

Last edited by kbarnes701; 09-07-2014 at 04:00 AM.
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post #6592 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The question then becomes, who among us plays their systems at reference level? I for one have never done that, and never intend to do so. -10 dB is enough for me.

BTW, SMPTE observes that "reference" level should be derated as the room gets smaller to achieve the same perceived effect. I have not seen a precise chart, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 dB would probably not be too far off.
I never knew that - but I aim, subjectively, to get the same loudness at home as I hear in a commercial theater. And guess what level gives me that? Yep - -5dB. Not very scientific I agree but interesting. I also remember FM saying he uses a similar setting at home. I have called -5dB 'home Reference' many times.
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post #6593 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
I can't say reference level playback is high on my personal list of things to do either, but obviously it's something at least a few enthusiasts are interested in. Either way, the overall point is that dynamic capability is something that will separate entry level Atmos modules from costlier models. Even at -10dB, would the Onkyo model handle my earlier example of "realistic" playback of fireworks, or as another example a low jet flyover without compression/significant distortion? With a sensitivity of 81dB w/ 1W and 25W rated input power, the Onkyo can deliver 95dB...at 1 meter and mum is the word on distortion. By those basic numbers alone, assuming you've got a fair sized theater space, the odds aren't in your favor.
I think you have made your point: you don't rate the Onkyo speakers. Nobody here is defending them or fighting for them, so what's the purpose of spending so much time and effort to keep on repeating that you feel they are not up to the job ('job' being defined by you in this case).
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post #6594 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Let's be realistic here. What end user who is serious about reaching clean reference level output at their home theater is going to be buying the entry level Onkyo modules?

The target market market for these is at best your mid level living room compromise HT, and these types of setups rarely go above -20db. It's not a particularly demanding task, and IMHO anyone interested in real high fidelity near reference output (if they aren't installing actual on ceiling speakers) is going to start with the $500+ type units like the AT model.
The voice of reason enters the fray
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post #6595 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 04:58 AM
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Atmos and Auro3D compatible speaker layout

As promised in my previous entry I wanted to prepare a suggestion for speaker types and layout to provide for Atmos as well as Auro3D sound. For everybody who haven't heard Auro 3D so far, writing it off already is a huge mistake IMO and Auro will most likely be available in normal priced gear also soon. Preparing your speakers for both is thus very important to be future proof.

Basis for this guideline were countless hours in this thread as well as talking to different dealers and a long conversation with the Auro engineers during the IFA in Berlin. We looked together at the famous Denon diagram which is in general also valid for Auro so we should use this to start with. Fortubately the 5.x or 7.x bed is the same for Auro and Atmos, so we should only concentrate what is happening at the ceiling.

Starting from the back we have first the rear height speakers and the rear top speakers. According to the chart both these have very similar angles of 125-150 respectvely 135-150 degrees, so installing one pair of speakers fulfilling both requirement is very easy achievable. In regards to speaker types two possibilities exist. A direct aiming height speaker tilted towards the MLP or an in ceiling speaker with a pointable tweeter towards the MLP. Both ways are a compromise but should work for both systems. Maybe the direct speakers are a little bit better for Auro and the ceiling speakers better for Atmos so choice should be done depending on preferences.

Next row of speakers are the top middle speakers. In a normal sized Atmos setup this row should not have much relevance as normal setup would be rear and front top speakers, but for Auro3D this is the position where the Voice of God speaker should be. VOG is a mono speaker located more or less directly above the MLP. Speaker type can be a normal in-ceiling speaker such as used for Atmos rear and top speakers. In general it can be stated that the VOG speaker does not hold much relevance in the Auro setup. Especially when directly pointing back and front speakers are used no real difference can be heard between a setup with an without VOG speaker, so this one can be skipped without much influence.

The following row of speaker is the front top speaker. Now whilst the middle top was not really that important for Atmos the front top row has little to none importance for Auro. Therfore my suggestion for this row would be in-ceiling or Dolby enabled speakers. If the overall amount of channels is of relevance this row could be muted during Auro playback and the amplifier could be used to drive front height speakers.

The last row according to the Denon sheet is the front height speaker which again like the rear height are direct firing speakers tilted to the MLP. The difference between Atmos and Auro for this row would be that the speakers should be attached 30-45 degrees which leave them sometimes in the middle of the room (in my case for instance) Auro requires them to be in line with front row speakers / the screen and not much relevance is given to the angle. As these speakers do not hold much relevance for Atmos, my suggestion would be to install them by the screen and maybe even mute them for Atmos. As suggested above front top for Atmos and front height for Auro could be run over the same amp using a switch in between.

One last speaker which is an Auro only one is the height center soeaker . This one is a mono speaker and should be installed either directly firing over the screen or as a LCR designated in-ceiling speaker (such as the IC 608 FG LCR from Jamo). This speaker is not essential for Auro but has quite a nice effect to distribute dialogues more homogeniozsly over the screen.

Conclusion Some clever arrangement and maybe one additional pair of speakers can achieve that your speaker types and layout is at least Atmos and Auro compatible. Now DTS UHD might be another story again...

Addition on September 12th In the meantime I got feedback from Auro tgemselves. I forwarded this post to them and they replied that they don't see any issue with using this setup for Auro!

Last edited by westmd; 09-12-2014 at 12:38 AM.
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post #6596 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 05:20 AM
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@westmd
Very informative post, do you have any opinions on my speaker placement question?
I am trying to place them slightly outside the central ceiling area, so they can fit onto the cove / false ceiling?

Thanks
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post #6597 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 05:21 AM
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Conclusion Some clever arrangement and maybe one additional pair of speakers can achieve that your speaker types and layout is at least Atmos and Auro compatible. Now DTS UHD might be another story again...
Thanks for that detailed report. Very helpful. I already have my Atmos ceiling speakers in place but I also have Front Height speakers which were used for PLIIz, Neo:X before. I was about to remove these speakers and sell them, but from what you say, the best plan may be to leave them in place in case Auro comes along in the future. That will give me 6 speakers 'up there' - the old Front Heights, the Atmos first row pair and the Atmos second row pair. I won't bother with a VOG speaker as I'd expect the existing ceiling speakers would do a good job of phantom imaging that. I can easily add a Centre Height speaker if necessary.

Thanks again - I will remove my ad for the current Height speakers from the UK forum where I have them for sale and see how things develop.

TBH I don't have a lot of confidence that Auro will succeed, but if all I need to do to future-proof myself for now is leave an existing pair iof speakers in place, that's a pretty easy decision.
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post #6598 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
BTW (will cross post in Denon thread as well) -- I popped into my local Best Buy Magnolia Design Center here in San Diego (Mission Valley location) this evening. I asked the two reps if they had the DT A60 modules, and they are in fact IN STOCK right now. I almost bought them just to test out (and may still do so).

I also asked if they were going to set up an Atmos demo room since they had them in stock and they said they weren't going to. I pointed out that their speaker demo room already has in-ceiling speakers plus speakers all over each wall which would make it easy to do Atmos... but they noted that it isn't so easy because of their speaker switching system (all the in-ceiling speakers will be hooked up to FR/FL to be demo'd for stereo music playback) so they'd really have to do a dedicated room, and that wasn't going to happen at this point. They also told me (not surprised) that I was the first person to ever ask them about Atmos.
I visited a local Best Buy Magnolia store last week and asked one of the reps if they were going to setup an Atmos demo and he had no clue what I was talking about. I pointed him to the Best Buy website which provides a page describing Dolby Atmos and also to the pages containing the Atmos receivers and speakers that they are selling. No wonder Best Buy's sales are down.
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post #6599 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 05:22 AM
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@westmd
Very informative post, do you have any opinions on my speaker placement question?
I am trying to place them slightly outside the central ceiling area, so they can fit onto the cove / false ceiling?

Thanks
How far 'outside' is outside?
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post #6600 of 55608 Old 09-07-2014, 05:26 AM
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Like that... the entire hall is about 3.6m (W) by 6m (L) by 3m (H)
The cove extends 700mm into the hall on both sides..
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