The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 224 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6691 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Just to clarify this for me, so you are saying that in an Auro setup which did not include the VOG speaker, that helicopter in Lone Survivor just wouldn't be there? The sound of the helicopter will be sent to a channel that might not actually exist? I ask because it seems so crazy to do it that way.
In essence yes. Obviously the helicopter effect is going to be coming from other channels also, but it prominence was definitely in the VOG channel.

Why does it seem crazy to do it that way? The same applies to any other standard. If you play a standard 7.1, or upmix to Neo:X but omit one of the speakers you won't hear the sound that the mix/up mixer has sent to that speaker.

That said, I would be surprised if Auro don't update the upmixer at some point to allow the VOG channel to be down-mixed to the other height channels to approximate it with a phantom image, though I don't think it will have quite the same impact.
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post #6692 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
In essence yes. Obviously the helicopter effect is going to be coming from other channels also, but it prominence was definitely in the VOG channel.

Why does it seem crazy to do it that way? The same applies to any other standard. If you play a standard 7.1, or upmix to Neo:X but omit one of the speakers you won't hear the sound that the mix/up mixer has sent to that speaker.

That said, I would be surprised if Auro don't update the upmixer at some point to allow the VOG channel to be down-mixed to the other height channels to approximate it with a phantom image, though I don't think it will have quite the same impact.
Thanks for clarifying that. It seems crazy to me not to downmix into existing channels if a channel is not present in the system. Your Neo:X example isn't quite right - if I have a 5.1 system and play a 7.1 soundtrack on it, the information in the rear surrounds is redirected to the side surrounds - it isn’t just thrown away, as it seems to be in the Auro system.

I got quite excited at the thought of being able to accommodate Auro as well as Atmos after reading westmd's post, simply be retaining my Front Height speakers. But since then I have learned that Auromatic generates content rather than extracting it, and I dislike that (when I have heard it, as well as conceptually) and now I learn that if I don't install a VOG channel that some content will be simply discarded. Neither of those things fill me with enthusiasm. Nonetheless, I have not yet heard Auromatic for myself so I keep an open mind, but just with less enthusiasm.
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post #6693 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:29 AM
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Well, IMHO, to have a channel just for a helicopter flyby... I think I can do without that...
Why can't they image it to a 'phantom' location by making use of the four ceiling speakers together?

Anyway, I am not sure if I want to build a 'helicopter' enabled speaker
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post #6694 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Well, IMHO, to have a channel just for a helicopter flyby... I think I can do without that...
Me too. But I wouldn't want to lose most of the sound of the helicopter at the same time.

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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Why can't they image it to a 'phantom' location by making use of the four ceiling speakers together?
I was wondering the same thing, but I know next to nothing about Auro. Atmos seem to have such a lead now in commercial theaters that I wonder if anyone else, coming so late to the game, can catch them up. And if they can't then I can't see many movie releases making it to Bluray. I don't think I want Auro just for upmixing so I may be ruling it out. But I need to do a lot more homework before I can say for sure.
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post #6695 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Personally yes, I would always go for a speaker that can be directed straight to the MLP, no matter what its position. Speaker performance can decline significantly as you get off axis to the drivers. All systems are designed to be optimum with drivers firing directly at the listeners. Again Dolby's advice for wide dispersion in ceiling speakers is merely them sensibly acknowledging that for many users, this will be the easiest option - to get as many people to adopt it as possible. They don't want the average user having too much to worry/think about when installing their Atmos system.
I think what I am going to do then is to buy 4 LCR speakers placed in the rear and front ( according to Dolby angles) which would leave the frint runs in the middle between MLP and screen. Once I will have my Auro/Atmos processor I will test run this setup for both codecs. Only if I get any problems with this setup will I buy two more speakers placed by the screen. Maybe that way I get Auro and Atmos with exactly the same setup!
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post #6696 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:43 AM
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Anyway, I am not sure if I want to build a 'helicopter' enabled speaker
VOH = Voice of Helicopter
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post #6697 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 05:52 AM
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I don't think helicopter sound in four top speakers would be noticably worse than in one VOG. In fact, it might even sound larger as a side effect. And it will probably be more stable from seat to seat in experience.

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post #6698 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 06:12 AM
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This helicopter speaker may fair worse...
Imagine if the chopper comes a tad to the left of this speaker, then what happens?

If they can make use of the four ceiling speakers, then you can control the deviation from the centre... flybys will be more realistic...

Really it's only good for the "Voice of God"... and how many movies need that?

One of my fav demo scenes comes from the 5.1 'only' Band of Brothers Episode Two, in which a grenade is hurled by a German soldier and the path can be traced from back, upwards, and to the front, from one side to the centre.. you can already get this effect with a well placed set of speakers in DTS-Neo X... I look forward to seeing how this pans out (pun intended) with Atmos ...
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post #6699 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
I know some folks had mentioned Auro-matic adding in reverb. FWIW, here's a quick excerpt from an upcoming interview with Wilfried Van Baelen of Auro:
How do they extract height and surround information from mono? I can see how they could generate it, but if they are not generating it, how are they extracting it from mono sources?
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post #6700 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
This is completely incorrect I'm afraid. It is true that the VOG speaker does not deliver a huge amount of output, but the effect it has in combination with the other height speakers, particularly in the upmixer, is quite dramatic, it lifts the whole height of the listening space and provides the fill in with the other height channels. It also significantly comes into play with specific height effects. The helicopter scene in Lone Survivor is a perfect example - you can feel the helicopter right above you through the VOG channel. Bear in mind also that the VOG channel is not currently de-selectable (certainly on the Datasat RS20i) so content will be sent to that channel even if you don't have a speaker installed.
This is not quite right. There are several Auro configurations supported by the Auro codec and the RS20i, including 9.1 (5.1 + 4 heights) and a 7.1+4 config, neither of which have the VOG. If you configure your system with either of these, and play back native 11.1 or 13.1 content the VOG information will be down mixed appropriately.
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post #6701 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Not a clue.
Would that be because it's not possible

Which would suggest that if they are upmixing mono "impressively" then they are indeed generating the information and not extracting it.

Which then raises the question as to what Wilfrid Van Baelen actually meant when he said "It is impressive how even Mono upmixed to Auro-3D sounds so natural without changing the artistic intent of the original mix, meaning no addition of reverbs or changing the spectrum or dynamics like other upmixing algorithms typically do."
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post #6702 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
How do they extract height and surround information from mono? I can see how they could generate it, but if they are not generating it, how are they extracting it from mono sources?
excellent question.
the only DSP modes I've ever seen for mono add reverb.

is Auro new physics?

I also am skeptical because of this in their statement:

"meaning no addition of reverbs or changing the spectrum or dynamics like other upmixing algorithms typically do."

what upmixing algorithms add reverb? certainly none I'm familiar with, going all the way back to the quadraphonic era.

does IIx & Neo change the frquency "spectrum or dynamics"?

Roger might know, but in all the years (40) I've listened to surround sound, I can't say I've heard noticeable changes in freq response or dynamics. only using phase differences to re-direct sound. the only system I know for sure could introduce dynamic range artifacts were the old Fosgate-Tate super-SQ decoders which sometimes could introduce a slight breathing or pumping effect. Never noticed it with any other system, from Sansui's QS to Dolby PLII to DTS Neo. Maybe my ears aren't picking it up.

Auro's statement reads like marketing-speak to me.

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post #6703 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Would that be because it's not possible

Which would suggest that if they are upmixing mono "impressively" then they are indeed generating the information and not extracting it.

Which then raises the question as to what Wilfrid Van Baelen actually meant when he said "It is impressive how even Mono upmixed to Auro-3D sounds so natural without changing the artistic intent of the original mix, meaning no addition of reverbs or changing the spectrum or dynamics like other upmixing algorithms typically do."
exactly!
time for Auro's statement to be taken with a grain of salt? without further proof, I am

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post #6704 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
excellent question.
the only DSP modes I've ever seen for mono add reverb.

is Auro new physics?

I also am skeptical because of this in their statement:

"meaning no addition of reverbs or changing the spectrum or dynamics like other upmixing algorithms typically do."

what upmixing algorithms add reverb? certainly none I'm familiar with, going all the way back to the quadraphonic era.

does IIx & Neo change the frquency "spectrum or dynamics"?

Roger might know, but in all the years (40) I've listened to surround sound, I can't say I've heard noticeable changes in freq response or dynamics. only using phase differences to re-direct sound. the only system I know for sure could introduce dynamic range artifacts were the old Fosgate-Tate super-SQ decoders which sometimes could introduce a slight breathing or pumping effect. Never noticed it with any other system, from Sansui's QS to Dolby PLII to DTS Neo. Maybe my ears aren't picking it up.

Auro's statement reads like marketing-speak to me.
As it stands, it reads like gibberish to me

Audyssey's DSX creates reflections of course, rather than extracting them. Maybe that is what he meant? Who knows - at the end of the day he's a salesman, selling his product. We all know how reliable salesmen are at providing meaningful information
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post #6705 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Would that be because it's not possible
Which then raises the question as to what Wilfrid Van Baelen actually meant when he said "It is impressive how even Mono upmixed to Auro-3D sounds so natural without changing the artistic intent of the original mix, meaning no addition of reverbs or changing the spectrum or dynamics like other upmixing algorithms typically do."
Perhaps he means, "Plays all sound out of the Center Channel" LOL

That would certainly make it "sound natural" and not add "reverb" etc,

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post #6706 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:20 AM
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Perhaps he means, "Plays all sound out of the Center Channel" LOL

That would certainly make it "sound natural" and not add "reverb" etc,
Oh yes. And it'd require very little DSP horsepower too

I'd need a lot more convincing that they can "impressively" upmix mono to several height and surround speakers without adding anything to it! Where would the spatial cues come from? ATM, from Wilfrid Van Baelen's imagination it seems
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post #6707 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:24 AM
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Thumbs up

Hi,

Transformes 4, Age of Extinction, 1st BluRay with an Dolby Atmos track?! See here (in French) :

http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-15002...xtinction.html

Hugo
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post #6708 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
I'd agree to some extent, but Wilfried isn't just some marketing hack either. AFAIK, he's the guy that developed Auro from the ground up.
He is also a salesman, selling his product. Not that a salesman would ever be economical with the truth, of course.

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If he's saying Auro-matic doesn't add reverb, there's not much ambiguity in the statement, regardless of its implications for how they upmix mono content.
How can they upmix mono content, which has no spatial information, without adding something to the original signal? My understanding is that it is impossible, so while there's no ambiguity in his statement, there is also no meaningful content to it either.
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post #6709 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Oh yes. And it'd require very little DSP horsepower too

I'd need a lot more convincing that they can "impressively" upmix mono to several height and surround speakers without adding anything to it! Where would the spatial cues come from? ATM, from Wilfrid Van Baelen's imagination it seems
Let's see. I'll play devil's advocate. All you have is pitch and amplitude, right? And amplitude seems unrelated. So, you could do something like: the higher the pitch, the higher the sound is played (e.g. higher Hz sounds from height speakers, lower Hz sounds from ear level speakers). Not sure how impressive that would be (especially considering that many mono movie mixes are rather limited in Hz range). I guess we're getting off topic (not to mention, silly) and I should stop digressing. heh.

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post #6710 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post
Hi,

Transformes 4, Age of Extinction, 1st BluRay with an Dolby Atmos track?! See here (in French) :

http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-15002...xtinction.html

Hugo
I'd guessed it would be that. Thanks for the link. At first I thought that they had gotten advance notice of today's upcoming announcement from Dolby, but it seems that this is just one piece of information that they are obtaining 'petit à petit'. Please post the Dolby announcement link if you get it first!

Looks like I will be importing Transformers 4 then, to get it into my BD player as soon as humanely possible.

Amitiés,

K.
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post #6711 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
This is not quite right. There are several Auro configurations supported by the Auro codec and the RS20i, including 9.1 (5.1 + 4 heights) and a 7.1+4 config, neither of which have the VOG. If you configure your system with either of these, and play back native 11.1 or 13.1 content the VOG information will be down mixed appropriately.
The demo I saw was a 5.1 bed and 4 height speakers.No VOG!
And it sounded phenomenal! We saw actually several clips with some information from above like a plane and a helicopter flying over you. It was totally lifelike, nothing was missing.
I think if the VOG would be that important, Auro would definitely have it i in their demo setup, always!
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post #6712 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post
Take it or leave it Keith. The man explicitly said that they don't add reverb. Being that he's the guy that developed Auro, he's the guy that can make a definitive statement.
Does that mean that he can defy the current understandings of science then? Call me impressed.


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Ad hominem attacks aren't becoming of you Keith.
Take it or leave it Steve. He's a salesman for sure. While I am sure you have never been misled by a salesman, or even by marketing, heaven forbid, there are plenty who'd not agree with you as to the reliability we can place on their statements. He is also a salesman, currently, very much on the losing end of a technology battle for the hearts and minds (and dollars) of those seeking more immersive movie sound. Maybe that encourages him to be 'flexible' with his claims?

Maybe you could get van Baelen to explain how he upmixes mono (impressively) without adding adding anything to the source content?
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post #6713 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Looks like I will be importing Transformers 4 then, to get it into my BD player as soon as humanely possible.

Amitiés,

K.
Unfortubately the movie is so bad that not even Dolby Atmos in perfection makes it watchable!
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post #6714 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:41 AM
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Bonjour Keith,

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'd guessed it would be that. Thanks for the link. At first I thought that they had gotten advance notice of today's upcoming announcement from Dolby, but it seems that this is just one piece of information that they are obtaining 'petit à petit'. Please post the Dolby announcement link if you get it first!
You'll get it before I can as I won't be back home before late this evening...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith who also said
Looks like I will be importing Transformers 4 then, to get it into my BD player as soon as humanely possible.
Amitiés,
K.
Looks like you won't be the only one... even though at that time I'll still have the 8801, but I NEED to see/hear how DTS Neo X 11 Cinema interprets an Atmos mix/track.

Amts,

H.
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post #6715 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:43 AM
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Audyssey's DSX creates reflections of course, rather than extracting them.
Being in Pioneer-land, I forgot about DSX. maybe that's what he had in mind.

I tend to think of "upmixing" as deriving channels from existing sound but not adding something that wasn't there to begin with.

Steve
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post #6716 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:44 AM
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Unfortubately the movie is so bad that not even Dolby Atmos in perfection makes it watchable!
Maybe. But Michael Bay gets fantastic sound from his movies, so it will be a good demo of what home Atmos can do I expect.
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post #6717 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:45 AM
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Being in Pioneer-land, I forgot about DSX. maybe that's what he had in mind.

I tend to think of "upmixing" as deriving channels from existing sound but not adding something that wasn't there to begin with.
Yes - as it should be IMO.
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post #6718 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:50 AM
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Onkyo's response to my 838 question,
Here's Onkyo's response to my 838 question. Looks like i'm beat for running four channels. Although the 838 has a height pre-amp it will not help me in what I'm looking to do. Guess I should have saved up and bought the 1080. Regardless here is the answer I got from Onkyo..

"As the TX-NR 838 is only a 5.1.2 system; using an external amp will not properly emit audio in the 5.1.4 format you are seeking. It will still output in 5.1.2 with the extra two speakers mirroring the same audio output as the FRONT HIGH speakers.This will not produce a real Dolby Atmos experience."

-FM
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post #6719 of 55621 Old 09-08-2014, 07:53 AM
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Maybe. But Michael Bay gets fantastic sound from his movies, so it will be a good demo of what home Atmos can do I expect.
+1

I don't watch 'meaningful' movies on Atmos

Gimme the bass, bombs and babes
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So I'm just days away from speaker wire and speakers being installed in my new house. I've got a little bit of a dilemma though. I bought six of these speakers, MartinLogan EM-R's: http://www.martinlogan.com/architect...otion/em-r.php

Tested them yesterday and man, I knew in-ceilings weren't going to sound great but they were worse than I expected. They just sounded muffled and tiny. I guess I've never critically listened to in-ceilings before. I'm debating now whether I should just return these and install bookshelves and brackets. These are the ones I'm thinking of, MartinLogan Motion 15's: http://www.martinlogan.com/motionSer.../bookshelf.php

They would actually be cheaper than the in-ceilings. The only issue is of course they will stick out more on my living room ceiling compared to in-ceilings. But do you guys think I'm overreacting, and you don't need great speakers for overheard sounds? I just fear the in-ceilings will muddy up the clear sounds I'm getting from the electrostats. Originally I thought Atmos was just for ambient noise and overheard sounds, but the more I read it sounds like tracks will use multiple speakers to place sounds on an x,y,z which to me seems like higher quality, better sounding speakers should be used all around.

The other issue I have is I was going to go 7.1.4. I would need to place the rear surrounds on/in the ceiling though because the kitchen is in back of me. Do you think this is bad to have rear surround speakers on the same plane as the Atmos speakers? They would only be about 3 feet behind the top rear Atmos speakers. Would this mess up the 3D x,y,z placement of sounds because Atmos and the receiver would expect sounds to come from ear level from the rear surrounds? Or would Atmos/Audessey be able to figure out and "know" where the speakers are and still create 3D sound? Should I just go to 5.1.4 instead? Which do you think would sound better?

Samsung 85" 4K, Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 with MartinLogan Theos, Stage, Motion 15, EM-R, Seaton Submersive F2, Denon AVR-X5200W
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