The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Not until they put a darn XLR output on the sub out.
Haha! I actually said just that in one of these other Atmos threads.

Probably the Yamaha one, maybe.
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post #62 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Because you know exactly how much data all these objects consume?

The audio info contained in an object is presumably equivalent to 'one channel' regardless of whether the object is STATIC or DYNAMIC (and likely relatively unaffected by whether it is INTERACTIVE or NON-INTERACTIVE) . . . but a DYNAMIC object must require a lot more positional metadata than a STATIC object.
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post #63 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
We won't get 118 simultaneous objects, that's for sure - way too much data.

I'd pay $300 extra to put the top of the line Intel processor (non extreme) in my pre-amp. Your telling me an Intel 4770k or equivalent processor from any chosen vendor couldn't process 118 simultaneous objects?

Baloney...

Instead we are still getting these onboard low heat, low speed processing chips that rival computer chips that were top of the line in the 1980's. C'mon. Why does my Onkyo GUI on my 5508 look like something that might appear on my late 1980's Tandy 1000 from Radio Shack? I take that back. My Tandy 1000 had better graphics capability than my relatively current gen Onkyo. I'm pretty sure my album art for pandora streaming through the Onkyo is 8 bit and probably 320x200 resolution.

News that Atmos for home isn't really object based audio is a real devastating blow to my enthusiasm over this release. WORST NEWS FOR AN AV ENTHUSIAST ALL YEAR --- well besides perhaps the news that popalock is moving out of country before he can setup his 32 SI subwoofers and four SI 24" subwoofers to achieve absolutely glorious LFE overkill in his 1500 cubic foot basement theater room!

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post #64 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 04:11 PM
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So are any of these Atmos equipped receivers going to be able to do 9.1.4 so you can keep the front wides as well as have four ceiling channels? (aka 13.1 with a separate amp?)
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post #65 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by blackoper View Post
So are any of these Atmos equipped receivers going to be able to do 9.1.4 so you can keep the front wides as well as have four ceiling channels? (aka 13.1 with a separate amp?)
Nope. So far the maximum number of channels any of them are able to process is 11.
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post #66 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 07:04 PM
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I guess I will obviously A/B but I am stuck between doing 5.1.4 or 7.1.2. ()

I have 4 in my ceiling actually positioned nicely. Two for heights and two for sides/surrounds. So wonder which will be optimal? Treat the room as 7 then just add two Atmos heights or treat it as a traditional 5 speaker set up then add 4???

Without knowing exactly how ATMOS processing is going to work in the home, it makes sense (to me at least ) that if you go with using 4 in ceiling speakers vice 2, you will be able to get greater benefit from ATMOS. Since the big argument for ATMOS is all the height information possible, and the whole X, Y, Z coordinate thing, using 4 ceiling/height speakers could give ATMOS more possible coordinates to use to render all those object based sounds. I guess it will depend really if the "ATMOS encoded" blu-ray discs will still only use the core 5.1 setup that the majority of blu-rays are today, or will they bump up to making all soundtracks with "ATMOS encoding", or whatever they will call it, start out at 7.1. I'm not even going to start another 5.1 vs. 7.1 benefits argument.

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post #67 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 08:17 PM
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I spoke with engineers at both Dolby and Onkyo today. Both said trying both would be the best suggestion but both agreed the 4 ceiling speakers would most likely be optimal as Atmos speakers. So both predict 5.1.4 would be the winner. We shall see I guess.
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post #68 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 08:26 PM
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well if the atmos is going to do only 9.1.2 (or 11.1) , i still favour the auro-3D which has 13.1 channel capability.. seriously wonder why they don't make use of the full channel capability of atmos. it could be like 5.1.5.1 or so, so it has 5 speakers below and 5 on top and a voice of god ceiling speaker. would be easy to align speakers also. donno which dolby people invented the atmos soundwave-to-ceiling-bouncing speaker but don't these people think of that most people dont have a nice flat ceiling or one with multilevel or some roomtreatment there and what about the reflection of sound to the side-walls ? who made this notation for speakersetups actually ? makes no sense since it has speaker at earlevel ,then the sub and then the heights/vog speakers. should be like 1.5.5.1 or something similar.. and virtual rears for 7.1.. its confusing allready.. more then 8 channel requires hdmi2.0 spec and there are 8 channel 24bit/192khz on bluray disc and they gonna make it so that it can be played with a current bluray player so that there is 11.1 and 4 additional speakers for objects or object streams possible. current usage is 24bit/48khz zo that leaves some space for additional sound info. its like dts-hd with a standard core and additional channel info incorporated. it can probably do some 16 channels on bluray so that it leaves 4 additional channels for objectbased sounds. might sound a bit low value this 4 channels at same time but there is a lot one can do with those channels and some creative mixing.
if you have enough money to spare you could get one of these http://www.stormaudio.com/en/product...04-auriga.html still wonder though why it has 16 channel support and only 13.1 auro-3D.

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post #69 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Without knowing exactly how ATMOS processing is going to work in the home, it makes sense (to me at least ) that if you go with using 4 in ceiling speakers vice 2, you will be able to get greater benefit from ATMOS. Since the big argument for ATMOS is all the height information possible, and the whole X, Y, Z coordinate thing, using 4 ceiling/height speakers could give ATMOS more possible coordinates to use to render all those object based sounds. I guess it will depend really if the "ATMOS encoded" blu-ray discs will still only use the core 5.1 setup that the majority of blu-rays are today, or will they bump up to making all soundtracks with "ATMOS encoding", or whatever they will call it, start out at 7.1. I'm not even going to start another 5.1 vs. 7.1 benefits argument.
It's possible it's 7.1 plus whatever amount of objects they were able to add. Then again, it could just be 9.1 and that's it.

However, Roger Dressler seemed to hint in his reply to me that 7.1+4 was not the maximum these Atmos consumer soundtracks could do, and that this layout was only due to current DSP limitations.

Still want to know the real nitty gritty. I think a lot of us do, so we can plan our theaters accordingly.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

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post #70 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It's possible it's 7.1 plus whatever amount of objects they were able to add. Then again, it could just be 9.1 and that's it.

However, Roger Dressler seemed to hint in his reply to me that 7.1+4 was not maximum these Atmos consumer soundtracks could do, and that this layout was only due to current DSP limitations.

Still want to know the real nitty gritty. I think a lot of us do, so we can plan our theaters accordingly.
well for the objects thingy it doesn't mean that 4 channels have only 4 objects. there can be a lot of objects rendered combined to a wave soundoutput on these 4 channels. in fact there is only the limit of the dsp ic's used, the more processing power it has the more objects it can render.

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post #71 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 08:57 PM
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well for the objects thingy it doesn't mean that 4 channels have only 4 objects. there can be a lot of objects rendered combined to a wave soundoutput on these 4 channels. in fact there is only the limit of the dsp ic's used, the more processing power it has the more objects it can render.
I'm not saying the four ceiling outputs equate to four objects, I'm saying that they probably used the core + extension data model of Dolby TrueHD since it works similarly to Atmos' structure. Dolby Atmos (commercially speaking) is either 7.1 or 9.1 channel beds + objects.

There is no way in heck there are 128 objects plus 64 speaker positional data in consumer Atmos, but I would like to know what the consumer version DID get.

I hope there are more than 4 objects like one of the proposed formats for UHD television broadcasting. Otherwise, it's awfully close to what we already have. There needs to be a clear distinction in surround capability between the current formats and Atmos and DTS-UHD.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #72 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
***But based on what we do know, one of the promises of object-based audio...namely, the ability of the processor to precisely and accurately position audio objects in 3D space despite non-traditional/non-standard speaker layouts***
IMO, and IME based on playing with Trinnov, there's a key phrase missing there: over a fairly small listening area.

As David L. Clark wrote a long time ago, decided where you want the images to be, and place speakers there. Anything else will not work except sometimes in a very small area.

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***Height information might even be matrixed into other channels *shudder* so it would fit into 8 channels of the current Blu-ray specs.
What's wrong with that?
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post #73 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I'm not saying the four ceiling outputs equate to four objects, I'm saying that they probably used the core + extension data model of Dolby TrueHD since it works similarly to Atmos' structure. Dolby Atmos (commercially speaking) is either 7.1 or 9.1 channel beds + objects.

There is no way in heck there are 128 objects plus 64 speaker positional data in consumer Atmos, but I would like to know what the consumer version DID get.

I hope there are more than 4 objects like one of the proposed formats for UHD television broadcasting. Otherwise, it's awfully close to what we already have. There needs to be a clear distinction in surround capability between the current formats and Atmos and DTS-UHD.
I am very curious as to how many 'objects' are going to be available in the consumer version. Since Dolby has already said consumer Atmos is compatible with current blu-ray players, I am making the assumption that Atmos information is not a discrete channel and if thats true then you should be able to encode in really any number of objects. You dont need 64 height speakers to play back all these objects in the home because that would be ridiculous in a home environment but with 4 ceiling speakers, you can pretty accurately place the objects all over with various combos of heights and fronts and surrounds working together (the X, Y, Z coordinates). Did that make sense? I think the bullet scene from 'The Matrix' would be an amazing demo for Atmos.

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post #74 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 09:59 PM
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i agree why not retain the same info as the theatrical atmos then allow hw mfr to catchup to the information.

to me... it was crazy hdtv didnt start with 4k or 8k and relented fo 2k instead.
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post #75 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 10:42 PM
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I am very curious as to how many 'objects' are going to be available in the consumer version. Since Dolby has already said consumer Atmos is compatible with current blu-ray players, I am making the assumption that Atmos information is not a discrete channel and if thats true then you should be able to encode in really any number of objects. You dont need 64 height speakers to play back all these objects in the home because that would be ridiculous in a home environment but with 4 ceiling speakers, you can pretty accurately place the objects all over with various combos of heights and fronts and surrounds working together (the X, Y, Z coordinates). Did that make sense? I think the bullet scene from 'The Matrix' would be an amazing demo for Atmos.
I don't think consumer Atmos uses matrixed information, just like the commercial version. Objects are discrete "packets" of computer controlled information just like channels. They're just more flexible and scalable in their placement around the room and how many speakers they can move through (that's determined by how detailed the positional metadata is). However, you need more speakers in order to have more coordinates to pan through. Except for the height speakers, there are no other pan-through arrays... in this iteration of at-home Atmos (that's a mouthful). That was a key selling point of Dolby's when they sold people on the 3D nature of Atmos.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #76 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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What's wrong with that?
Is it possible to mix two uncorrelated audio channels and separate them without any degradation?

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post #77 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't think consumer Atmos uses matrixed information, just like the commercial version. Objects are discrete "packets" of computer controlled information just like channels. They're just more flexible and scalable in their placement around the room and how many speakers they can move through (that's determined by how detailed the positional metadata is). However, you need more speakers in order to have more coordinates to pan through. Except for the height speakers, there are no other pan-through arrays... in this iteration of at-home Atmos (that's a mouthful). That was a key selling point of Dolby's when they sold people on the 3D nature of Atmos.
more room too.. and it probably is based on 7.1 beds + objects as there 8 channel for hdmi , more channel requires hmdi2.0.

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post #78 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 10:56 PM
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Is it possible to mix two uncorrelated audio channels and separate them without any degradation?
yes but it doesn't work that way for dolby hd or atmos or dts. they have a basic channel layout and a extra feed for the additional audioquality and channels

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post #79 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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yes
If that would be true then we could just matrix all 128 Atmos channels into a single channel, transport it and extract all 128 channels at the receiving end without any loss. Why has nobody else thought of this yet

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post #80 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 11:03 PM
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more room too.. and it probably is based on 7.1 beds + objects as there 8 channel for hdmi , more channel requires hmdi2.0.
I believe that's 8 channels of PCM uncompressed audio. HDMI chipsets only have to recognize and pass the Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio flags. Core+extension is the root of both Dolby and DTS's codecs. As long as Atmos and DTS-UHD have TrueHD and Master Audio flagging... it'll never know the difference.

Any current Dolby/DTS lossless decoder will just ignore the extra "junk" and Atmos and DTS-UHD decoders will combine the data together.

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post #81 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't think consumer Atmos uses matrixed information, just like the commercial version. Objects are discrete "packets" of computer controlled information just like channels. They're just more flexible and scalable in their placement around the room and how many speakers they can move through (that's determined by how detailed the positional metadata is). However, you need more speakers in order to have more coordinates to pan through. Except for the height speakers, there are no other pan-through arrays... in this iteration of at-home Atmos (that's a mouthful). That was a key selling point of Dolby's when they sold people on the 3D nature of Atmos.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that Atmos is using matrixing. I must be in my own little world as it made sense to me I guess that's what happens when you start guessing about something that you don't know much about. They just need to get the information out ASAP.

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post #82 of 55028 Old 06-24-2014, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I believe that's 8 channels of PCM uncompressed audio. HDMI chipsets only have to recognize and pass the Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio flags. Core+extension is the root of both Dolby and DTS's codecs. As long as Atmos and DTS-UHD have TrueHD and Master Audio flagging... it'll never know the difference.
Any current Dolby/DTS lossless decoder will just ignore the extra "junk" and Atmos and DTS-UHD decoders will combine the data together.
yup, it is probably done like u say. hdmi just passes along and based on 5.1+extension

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post #83 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 04:41 AM
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if you have enough money to spare you could get one of these http://www.stormaudio.com/en/product...04-auriga.html still wonder though why it has 16 channel support and only 13.1 auro-3D.
The Storm Audio channel count includes support for up to 4 subwoofers.
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post #84 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 08:03 AM
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Here is a lot more on Dolby Atmos, the 2014 models of Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo and Integra to support it.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/De...ter-Gear.shtml
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post #85 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 10:00 AM
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Here is a lot more on Dolby Atmos, the 2014 models of Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo and Integra to support it.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/De...ter-Gear.shtml
Nice read! I can't wait to get to hear about the Pioneer press release today and see if they got to hear some good demos.

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post #86 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Well actually by far most of all the Dolby Atmos AVR's announced this far are in the sub $1k market. Just a couple 'high end' and 11.1ch or greater so yeah...

I guess we'll see. I'm hoping for something like a 3030-ish but with Atmos. At least. Their a5000 with Atmos (and an XLR for sub) would be sweet.
I think it is the HDMI 2.0 chips that will be in the higher priced AVR's that are delaying them.
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post #87 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Nice read! I can't wait to get to hear about the Pioneer press release today and see if they got to hear some good demos.
Still no press release and the white paper Mr. Walker was talking about?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #88 of 55028 Old 06-25-2014, 11:57 AM
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i wish atmos would have been though of in the 80s and given to us consumers in the 90s the way Dolby Digital arrived to us. that would have saved us 20+ yrs of stupid in between progress.

to the edge of eternity and depth of infinity, stupidity knows no bound.
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post #89 of 55028 Old 06-26-2014, 12:08 AM
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Some questions. Please answer:

1) Is there a receiver that possesses both Atmos AND DTS-UHD?

2) Why is 7.1.4 considered the gold standard? Why not 11.4.4?

3) Out of the Atmos-capable receivers that have been revealed, which is the better receiver?

4) Off-topic, but what's the difference between a preamp and a receiver? Which is better? I ask this because there are 2 onkyo products that both have 11.2 channels but one of them is a preamp (SC5530) and the other a receiver (NR3030).

5) Why is Audyssey looked up to and which Atmos-capable product has it?

6) Does the Marantz AV8802 possess Atmos?

Last edited by HitchcockBirds; 06-26-2014 at 12:13 AM.
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post #90 of 55028 Old 06-26-2014, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by HitchcockBirds View Post
Some questions. Please answer:

1) Is there a receiver that possesses both Atmos AND DTS-UHD?

2) Why is 7.1.4 considered the gold standard? Why not 11.4.4?

3) Out of the Atmos-capable receivers that have been revealed, which is the better receiver?

4) Off-topic, but what's the difference between a preamp and a receiver? Which is better? I ask this because there are 2 onkyo products that both have 11.2 channels but one of them is a preamp (SC5530) and the other a receiver (NR3030).

5) Why is Audyssey looked up to and which Atmos-capable product has it?

6) Does the Marantz AV8802 possess Atmos?
1. No. DTS-UHD might be available in a future firmware update but that's just pure speculation at this point.

2. 7.1.4 (well, maybe 7.2.4) is considered the gold standard because it uses the maximum number of height speakers that any current Atmos product can drive. Nothing released to date can drive more than 11 speakers so 11.4.4 is a non-starter.

3. That's impossible to say without anyone actually getting their hands on production units...and even then might still be impossible to objectively say.

4. A receiver is basically a pre-amp plus built-in power amplifiers. If you buy a pre-amp, you'll also need outboard power amplifiers to actually power your speakers. A receiver already has the amps included.

5. Audyssey is a proven, flexible room eq solution and has been demonstrated (objectively and subjectively) to deliver good results. Only the Denon and Marantz products have Audyssey.

6. Yes.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-26-2014 at 02:01 AM.
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