The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 51 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1501 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Rod, I was simply quoting Keith's excellent review because it was already few pages back (always a good thing to bring back the best stuff for a more up-to-date of newer members like me, today), and nothing "silly" appeared to me with the alternative of using front Dolby Atmos speakers, or some small ceiling firing satellites (modules) on top of your existing ones (most cheap speakers are flat on top), and the second quote was only because.
So kind of it's your choice.

Gotcha

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post #1502 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post
Also dts may see it in their best interest to somehow get object based audio into their codec even if that means some sort of weird licensing from Dolby else risk market share loss, they must be getting paid for each disc that uses their codecs so if a swing to Dolby occurs they would stand to lose a bundle.
DTS has an object-based format. The file format is called MDA (Multi-Dimensional Audio), and they are working towards getting it adopted by the movie industry as a file format for object-based mixes. Their consumer implementation of MDA decoding is DTS-UHD, which was previewed this past CES.
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post #1503 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 03:58 PM
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Yep you are correct, both the same, I was just thinking from the dts side and consumer side. A lot of people still prefer to see that dts logo on their movie, they are still locked into the DVD era of thinking, there are probably more than you would think. Silly I know but some people are like that.


Also dts may see it in their best interest to somehow get object based audio into their codec even if that means some sort of weird licensing from Dolby else risk market share loss, they must be getting paid for each disc that uses their codecs so if a swing to Dolby occurs they would stand to lose a bundle.

Oh, I very much doubt DTS would partner with Dolby. No way, no how. They're in a fierce battle over who will be king. DTS wants MDA (aka DTS-UHD) to succeed because it complies with SMPTE wishes for an open and universal object audio language. Dolby wants Atmos, as far as I can tell, to remain proprietary so they get all the fees.

I don't know if DTS has been able to procure studio support like Dolby has with Atmos whereas you end up with a scenario where studios not releasing Atmos titles will soon start releasing with DTS-UHD instead. Then next year DTS-UHD shows up in new products.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #1504 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
DTS has an object-based format. The file format is called MDA (Multi-Dimensional Audio), and they are working towards getting it adopted by the movie industry as a file format for object-based mixes. Their consumer implementation of MDA decoding is DTS-UHD, which was previewed this past CES.

Yep I was just thinking in the event they stumble, like has been mentioned they have been quiet as of late so it's possible they are a ways out before getting this to market. I'm just theorizing if they felt compelled to get something out fast i.e. they start panicking they could possibly do something with Dolby. I know true enemies and all but you never know

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post #1505 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
There's a huge difference between having it and being able to turn it off if you prefer, to not having a choice. If you have Audyssey and don't want it 'mucking with' your front speakers, turn it off. Some people turn it off for music and on for movies.

Why room distortions suddenly seem to disappear when playing music and reappear when playing movies, and thus only need correcting for the latter, is, of course, anyone's guess
+1


IIRC, MultEQxt32 keeps a pretty light touch on EQ above the mids. Correct? It does just enough to create the gentle room roll-off (or what is selected in Pro) ... plus the crossover zone correction (unless disabled in Pro). I thought that they don't mess much above 1K so as to not induce issues.


Those of who have speakers installed in cabinets (even very well deadened cavities) still have the influence of the boundary to correct, and xt32 does an excellent job of that. I think Onkyo has screwed the pooch on this one. Marant/Denon ... I'm back.
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post #1506 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Sorry if I'm misconstruing what I think you're saying, but the only way to EQ the room's response (as opposed to room response which is the net response of speaker + room) is with treatments; what has been discussed is electronic EQ which changes speaker response.
I disagree. The electronic room EQ creates filters which modify the signal which is sent to the speakers. The frequency response of the speaker itself is not, and cannot, be changed by external software. This may be a semantical difference
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post #1507 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I disagree. The electronic room EQ creates filters which modify the signal which is sent to the speakers. The frequency response of the speaker itself is not, and cannot, be changed by external software. This may be a semantical difference
I think your last sentence says it best. The "speaker response" is designed and accomplished with its components, cabinet, and crossover working in synergy to achieve a given performance in the chamber; certainly smooth response being one goal. Electronic EQ (commonly called room correction EQ) at home or in the cinema is applied for two reasons: to try to mitigate coloration and/or effects that room acoustic properties impart to the perceived/measured performance of the speaker at the listening location(s); and to affect any "global" correction created for a psychoacoustic effect (room roll-off such as Audyssey, SMPTE House Curve, etc., even Dynamic EQ).

That's my shot at it, anyway. What say you?
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post #1508 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Oh, I very much doubt DTS would partner with Dolby. No way, no how. They're in a fierce battle over who will be king. DTS wants MDA (aka DTS-UHD) to succeed because it complies with SMPTE wishes for an open and universal object audio language. Dolby wants Atmos, as far as I can tell, to remain proprietary so they get all the fees.

I don't know if DTS has been able to procure studio support like Dolby has with Atmos whereas you end up with a scenario where studios not releasing Atmos titles will soon start releasing with DTS-UHD instead. Then next year DTS-UHD shows up in new products.

Thanks


So do you think dts is fairly close to getting UDA to market?

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post #1509 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post
Thanks


So do you think dts is fairly close to getting UDA to market?
They had January CES demos that seemed to show a working DTS-UHD codec on a real consumer-grade quad core Cirrus Logic chip. A little later in 2014 the MDA Cinema Proponents Group (that includes Barco/Auro, QSC, and others) had a demonstration of open-source MDA at a Burbank AMC 16 theater for a SMPTE committee where they showcased its ability to automatically render out an object soundtrack to any and all speaker configurations from Dolby Atmos' to Auro3D's to a more home cinema like 11.1 setup. The theater had both sets of speaker layouts in this one medium-sized auditorium, so they could switch back and forth.

And then... Nada.

What happened between then and now is anyone's guess.

Maybe with the announcement of home Dolby Atmos, they decided DTS-UHD needed further revisions. Maybe they thought they could improve on what Dolby was attempting to do. Maybe some partnerships dissolved. Maybe Dolby got to some of the MDA members with an offer they couldn't refuse.

Who knows?

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

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post #1510 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 06:41 PM
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DTS had said "AVR, HTiB and soundbar licensee partners of DTS that utilize Cirrus Logic quad-core audio DSPs will be able to license the DTS-UHD decoder into their product designs beginning Q2 2014." That is (at most) less than 4 months ago . . . add in some NDAs and it's not likely we would have heard much yet. Maybe something at CEDIA and IFA Berlin...? (Synchronized with Auro-3D updates...?)
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post #1511 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I disagree. The electronic room EQ creates filters which modify the signal which is sent to the speakers. The frequency response of the speaker itself is not, and cannot, be changed by external software. This may be a semantical difference
Yes, that is semantic; my point is that electronic EQ changes the direct sound emitted by the speaker.

Noah
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post #1512 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 10:35 PM
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Any diagram yet of where to place four speakers overhead instead of six? I'm thinking of putting two above the main seating position and maybe the other two halfway between the main seating position and the front speakers? I'm also forced to put the rear surrounds in ceiling also (as far back as possible) which is why I don't want to put any of the Atmos speakers behind the main seating position as they may be too close the back surrounds. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This diagram (which will be in upcoming Denon/Marantz manuals) has been posted several times in this thread already:



We haven't seen any "official" whitepaper detailing the "ideal" locations, but this diagram allows for a decent amount of latitude in placement. The basic idea is that the ceiling speakers should be approximately in line with the front L/R speakers, and if you are going with four there should be two in front of you, and two behind you.

(Note that the "height" speakers in the diagram reference speakers for non-Atmos surround modes like DTS Neo:X. This is a multi-purpose speaker layout diagram)

The ceiling speakers should ideally be (1) a good tonal match to your other speakers to maintain the seamlessless of the 3D bubble, so preferably speakers from the same manufacturer if possible, and (2) have decent dispersion characteristics so that the sound effects from above don't "beam" too much and restrict the size of the sweet spot. The latter factor is probably less of a concern the higher your ceilings are.

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post #1513 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 11:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
Just to clarify something here: DTS *sold* their cinema division to Datasat in 2008, in order to focus on their home theater codec business (DTS-HD Master Audio, Neo:X, Play-Fi, etc.) The sound format in cinemas formerly known as DTS Digital Sound is now known as Datasat Digital Sound (you may have noticed that if you sit through to the end of a film produced after 2008 the billing block has a Datasat logo but no DTS logo).

Datasat manufactures the AP20 audio processor for cinemas, as well as the RS20i and LS10 home theater processors.

DTS has proposed MDA as a file format to support object-based mixing for cinemas, but DTS does not manufacture playback devices for cinemas or home theater.
I did not know that, now I do. Thank you very much sir.
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post #1514 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 11:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
DTS has an object-based format. The file format is called MDA (Multi-Dimensional Audio), and they are working towards getting it adopted by the movie industry as a file format for object-based mixes. Their consumer implementation of MDA decoding is DTS-UHD, which was previewed this past CES.
The more I read the more I learn. Again, thank you sir.
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post #1515 of 54916 Old 07-18-2014, 11:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
DTS had said "AVR, HTiB and soundbar licensee partners of DTS that utilize Cirrus Logic quad-core audio DSPs will be able to license the DTS-UHD decoder into their product designs beginning Q2 2014." That is (at most) less than 4 months ago . . . add in some NDAs and it's not likely we would have heard much yet. Maybe something at CEDIA and IFA Berlin...? (Synchronized with Auro-3D updates...?)
_
Now that Dolby Atmos is in, ...Q2 2015 (DTS-UHD). ...A very plausible scenario.

Dolby people are dts people's friends: Dolby always starts the engine first, then dts roars it soon afterwards.
...Simple business' partnership. Everyone wins.

I don't know of any product with Dolby or dts alone all by themselves. ...They always go mutually together.
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post #1516 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Now that Dolby Atmos is in, ...Q2 2015 (DTS-UHD). ...A very plausible scenario.

Dolby people are dts people's friends: Dolby always starts the engine first, then dts roars it soon afterwards.
...Simple business' partnership. Everyone wins.

I don't know of any product with Dolby or dts alone all by themselves. ...They always go mutually together.
Dolby wins at cinema presentation via ticket sales.
DTS wins at home presentation via bluray/DVD/etc
I think it has always been like this.
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post #1517 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 06:48 AM
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Speaker placement

As you all can see I couldn't wait for Dolby to release their white paper on proper placement. I read all previous posts about the 1/3 Dolby rule and interpreted the Denon picture.
The front ceiling speakers are placed at 36 degrees while the rear ones are on top to slightly behind. They are all 1/3 to the inside and the front ones are right between the Front LCR and the Mid surrounds. I guess I averaged out all wisdom here. I can still adjust the speaker angles if needed. The current front height speakers are still in place for future use. In september after the Denon 5200 arrives I will be able to tell you guys how it sounds. In January I will replace the unit for the 7200. Hopefully in the future I will be able to use 9.2 with FHeights for Neo:X and PLIIz and 7.2.4 with Atmos and obviously some extra amps. The wait begins
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asarose247 and grtuck like this.
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post #1518 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 07:04 AM
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Not likely. I would assume the speakers you put of the ceiling would be small and lightweight and crossed over at around 120. Not likely to vibrate at all. If you plan of using full range towers on the your ceiling than you may need to be concerned.

Thanks to the Kid (and several others who responded). I'll probably try hanging the speakers with some good bungie cord (from all 4 corners so by changing the lengths, the speaker can be aimed).


And maybe one steel cable just in case the bungies wear out. :-)


Thanks,
Mike
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post #1519 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
Any diagram yet of where to place four speakers overhead instead of six? I'm thinking of putting two above the main seating position and maybe the other two halfway between the main seating position and the front speakers? I'm also forced to put the rear surrounds in ceiling also (as far back as possible) which is why I don't want to put any of the Atmos speakers behind the main seating position as they may be too close the back surrounds. Thoughts?
It's mostly conjecture at this point until we get more definitive guidance from Dolby and/or the AVR manufacturers, but it's my guess that having other speakers at the same elevation as the Atmos tops will be strongly discouraged. Otherwise, as you are probably already aware, the recommended front-to-back positioning for the tops seems to have the FH's slightly forward of the mains and the RH's behind the MLP.

I'm in an even more compromised position because my L/R surrounds are currently in-ceiling speakers (necessitated by the fact that I can't run speaker wire to the middle of the living room); OTOH, they happen to be pretty much ideally placed for Atmos RH's at about 110° from, and slightly to the L/R of, the MLP. If I want to switch to an Atmos configuration (7.1.4) I currently anticipate having to repurpose the aforementioned surrounds as Atmos RH's, my SB's as surrounds, and replacing my wall-mounted FH's with in-ceiling speakers identical to the RH's. My current SB bookies would then have to serve as surrounds although not ideally placed just behind and slightly above ear level of the MLP. I would probably have to forfeit any SB's, but I'm hoping the Denon X5200/7200 will allow me to keep my floorstanding FW's in lieu of the SB's in the 7.1.4--otherwise I would be down to 5.1.4.

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post #1520 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
They had January CES demos that seemed to show a working DTS-UHD codec on a real consumer-grade quad core Cirrus Logic chip. A little later in 2014 the MDA Cinema Proponents Group (that includes Barco/Auro, QSC, and others) had a demonstration of open-source MDA at a Burbank AMC 16 theater for a SMPTE committee where they showcased its ability to automatically render out an object soundtrack to any and all speaker configurations from Dolby Atmos' to Auro3D's to a more home cinema like 11.1 setup. The theater had both sets of speaker layouts in this one medium-sized auditorium, so they could switch back and forth.

And then... Nada.

What happened between then and now is anyone's guess.

Maybe with the announcement of home Dolby Atmos, they decided DTS-UHD needed further revisions. Maybe they thought they could improve on what Dolby was attempting to do. Maybe some partnerships dissolved. Maybe Dolby got to some of the MDA members with an offer they couldn't refuse.

Who knows?
Thanks Dan

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post #1521 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 10:48 AM
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Will anyone offer a Atmos Processor only? ie, A separate box I can connect to my existing receiver or processor? Lets assume I have a Classe, McIntosh, Krell $10,000 plus receiver and Im not willing to sell it or swap for a $2k atmos receiver. Am I screwed or will their be other options? What about an Atmos processor Blu Ray player which I could connect to the back of my receiver or active speakers? I guess im wondering if their is a work-around or will anyone wanting Atmos be forced to purchase a cheaper receiver?
Will Krell, Classe, etc be required to upgrade all of their processors to Atmos ready as well? Currently if your receiver does not support the newer codecs odd are your blu ray player does which can be connected using Analog and/or digital outputs giving you more codecs. Ugh, now I sound confused.. lol
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post #1522 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Will anyone offer a Atmos Processor only? ie, A separate box I can connect to my existing receiver or processor? Lets assume I have a Classe, McIntosh, Krell $10,000 plus receiver and Im not willing to sell it or swap for a $2k atmos receiver. Am I screwed or will their be other options? What about an Atmos processor Blu Ray player which I could connect to the back of my receiver or active speakers? I guess im wondering if their is a work-around or will anyone wanting Atmos be forced to purchase a cheaper receiver?
Will Krell, Classe, etc be required to upgrade all of their processors to Atmos ready as well? Currently if your receiver does not support the newer codecs odd are your blu ray player does which can be connected using Analog and/or digital outputs giving you more codecs. Ugh, now I sound confused.. lol
The short answer is probably not.

You have to have a receiver or pre-amp with a Dolby Atmos rendering engine built-in. And a Blu-ray player that has Atmos decoding on board would have to be either attached to a receiver or pre-amp that accepts 11 or more channels of PCM audio or the player would have to have a ton of pre-amp connectors (RCA or XLR) on the back of the player making it basically a pre-amp/disc player unit.

No such animal exists.

You can, however, use your current Blu-ray player to bitstream an Atmos soundtrack via HDMI to a new processor with it included.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 07-19-2014 at 10:58 AM.
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post #1523 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
Will anyone offer a Atmos Processor only? ie, A separate box I can connect to my existing receiver or processor? Lets assume I have a Classe, McIntosh, Krell $10,000 plus receiver and Im not willing to sell it or swap for a $2k atmos receiver. Am I screwed or will their be other options? What about an Atmos processor Blu Ray player which I could connect to the back of my receiver or active speakers? I guess im wondering if their is a work-around or will anyone wanting Atmos be forced to purchase a cheaper receiver?
Will Krell, Classe, etc be required to upgrade all of their processors to Atmos ready as well? Currently if your receiver does not support the newer codecs odd are your blu ray player does which can be connected using Analog and/or digital outputs giving you more codecs. Ugh, now I sound confused.. lol
I'm also expecting something like "ffdshow" to be able to decode Dolby Atmos and send it to the receiver as PCM (LPCM). Ripping Dolby Atmos coded Blu-ray discs to PC or laptop may be a solution for those who don't want to upgrade to a Dolby Atmos AVR.

Or is it just my wishful thinking?
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post #1524 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:07 AM
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I'm also expecting something like "ffdshow" to be able to decode Dolby Atmos and send it to the receiver as PCM (LPCM). Ripping Dolby Atmos coded Blu-ray discs to PC or laptop may be a solution for those who don't want to upgrade to a Dolby Atmos AVR.

Or is it just my wishful thinking?
Just wishful thinking. A receiver like that must be able to accept at least 11 channels of PCM audio to get any real, appreciable benefit from Atmos. The industry does not make them.

You must send the raw bitstream to an Atmos capable decoder.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #1525 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:12 AM
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That's me been to the cinema twice now to see Dolby Atmos, the first one was transformers age of extinction and the other one Dawn of the planet of the apes. It sounds better than any of the other cinemas I've been to, but I am still not convinced, yes you hear sound above your head, but my 5.1 system has done that for years. I am trying to convince myself that it will sound better in my own home. The way other people are talking about the sound,it is as if its the best thing that they have heard for years, for me it has not given me that wow factor yet. So will it sound better in my room or would i be better just keeping the system i have now. Or maybe i am just harder to please than other people.

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post #1526 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nucky View Post
That's me been to the cinema twice now to see Dolby Atmos, the first one was transformers age of extinction and the other one Dawn of the planet of the apes. It sounds better than any of the other cinemas I've been to, but I am still not convinced, yes you hear sound above your head, but my 5.1 system has done that for years. I am trying to convince myself that it will sound better in my own home. The way other people are talking about the sound,it is as if its the best thing that they have heard for years, for me it has not given me that wow factor yet. So will it sound better in my room or would i be better just keeping the system i have now. Or maybe i am just harder to please than other people.
I don't know what kind of magic your system has... but there is no way a normal 5.1 system can recreate point-source overhead effects the same way Atmos can. My Paradigm Studio system is pretty darn good, but it cannot recreate something like Gravity's Atmos mix right now. It's impossible.

Best wait until you can hear home Atmos for yourself in a decent demo.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #1527 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:32 AM
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I was thinking about something like this that could be connected to an existing processor in your home. I have no idea how much this costs. I guess I was hoping for a scaled down version for your existing 5ch to 11ch receiver. http://www.dolby.com/in/en/professio...sor/cp850.html
IF they made a cheap version.. perhaps a $1,000 - $3,000 receiver is the cheap version.

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post #1528 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:34 AM
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Just wishful thinking. A receiver like that must be able to accept at least 11 channels of PCM audio to get any real, appreciable benefit from Atmos. The industry does not make them.

You must send the raw bitstream to an Atmos capable decoder.
I hear you Dan, but isn't a 5.1.2 system a minimal criteria for a Dolby Atmos setup (actually 7.1)?

Here's what Onkyo says:

"FOR 5.1 CHANNEL USERS:

If you already have 5.1 channel system, you can upgrade to a Dolby Atmos system with the Onkyo TX-NR636 and a pair of Onkyo SKH-410 Dolby Atmos-enabled add-on speaker modules. (TX-NR636 Dolby Atmos Firmware Upgradable targeted for September.)

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post #1529 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
I was thinking about something like this that could be connected to an existing processor in your home. I have no idea how much this costs. I guess I was hoping for a scaled down version for your existing 5ch to 11ch receiver. http://www.dolby.com/in/en/professio...sor/cp850.html
It's basically a pre-amp/processor without the necessary line level outputs. You need an additional plug-in unit for that.

Again, you need a receiver or pre-amp with Dolby Atmos built-in.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #1530 of 54916 Old 07-19-2014, 11:39 AM
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I hear you Dan, but isn't a 5.1.2 system a minimal criteria for a Dolby Atmos setup (actually 7.1)?

Here's what Onkyo says:

"FOR 5.1 CHANNEL USERS:

If you already have 5.1 channel system, you can upgrade to a Dolby Atmos system with the Onkyo TX-NR636 and a pair of Onkyo SKH-410 Dolby Atmos-enabled add-on speaker modules. (TX-NR636 Dolby Atmos Firmware Upgradable targeted for September.)


It really is the absolute bare minimum, but even Dolby recommends at least 7.1.4. (11.1).

Since the industry wants to buy new gear based on existing platforms (for various cost cutting reasons) I just don't see them supporting low end outboard Atmos processors that plug into your current receiver or pre-amp via HDMI.

Maybe Oppo will jury rig something into their newer players. Who knows?

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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