The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 984 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29491 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeneize12 View Post
I have a question/advice on speaker placement in my media room

Here's the room:



I'm planning (for now) going 7.1.2

Should I place the speakers on the white ceiling (aligned with the front speakers as indicated by Dolby Atmos) which is about 8 feet tall or the gray wall (~7 feet)...

I'm just not sure that I'll get the right depth in the gray ceiling and on the other hand the white ceiling will probably be a bit too far..... Thoughts/Advice? Thanks!
Great room, my advice turn the furniture around and change the orientation of the room. I would also remove the sofa from the back wall
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post #29492 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
Don't bother looking for the subtitles on the Danish version, I checked myself. Only the Scandinavian languages are present. Otherwise I would have bought it immediately. Patience then...
So it would seem, if cdon.dk etc. are to be believed (and they probably are...). Will check anyway - my wife wants to see it too, and her Danish leaves some room for improvement

-Erik
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post #29493 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 01:56 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
Hi Erik,

Do you have the Blu-ray, and can you say a word or two about it to the maintainer of the Atmos Blu-ray list on blu-ray.com? I have been trying to get them to add this one, but they are reluctant to do so without confirmation.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....7#post11265817
Hi Scarabaeus

Actually, I've been trying several times to post it there, but my posts somehow never show up. Glad you had more luck.

They are being unusually pedantic, I mean, a pressrelease, covers, advertisement from major stores (Fona, cdon... What more do they need??!

No, I don't have the disc yet, and I won't for next two weeks, sorry!

-Erik
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post #29494 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Great room, my advice turn the furniture around and change the orientation of the room. I would also remove the sofa from the back wall
I can't... the part that you can't see has only a quarter wall where the side surround speakers are placed.... I would have to completely close the room and I have a bar being built.....

I know what you mean, but I need to co-exist with my wife's desires too... this room needed to be "multi" purpose
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post #29495 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
For a media room, I would cover 100% of the rear wall with 4" thick absorption.

But it looks so ugly And as far as I understand the dampening needs to be on the outside of the wall, right? different story if I could (and I would) put them inside.... That said, the acoustics of the room is not bad at all.
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post #29496 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeneize12 View Post
I have a question/advice on speaker placement in my media room

Thoughts/Advice?

Thanks!
I took the liberty of fixing your room crudely in Windows Paint

Couch moved forward. Surrounds repositioned and slightly lower.

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post #29497 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I took the liberty of fixing your room crudely in Windows Paint

Couch moved forward. Surrounds repositioned and slightly lower.

(attachment added)

That's great, thanks for doing this... so the front high speakers you would place them right above the side seats (in the middle) or wider?
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post #29498 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeneize12 View Post
But it looks so ugly
It doesn't have to be. Not at all. You basically have bare, monotone walls currently. If you want to preserve the minimalist look, all you need to do is get decorative 4" panels that tone (or match) the color of the walls. We're not talking about hanging batts of pink fluffy insulation on the wall

If you care about good sound room acoustics are essential to address, and frankly you are much less limited than most people given that this appears to be a somewhat dedicated media space and you have so much bare wall to work with. And it's relatively cheap -- for a few hundred bucks you can dramatically improve the acoustics and clarity of the system.

You probably don't have to cover the entire wall, but 3-4 large panels hanging behind the couch would be of great benefit. Hard to see the front wall but I could even see putting a panel behind each L/R main speaker (to the left right of the TV) to damp that first reflection from the front wall.

Here are some examples of (IMO at least) attractive rooms which incorporate acoustic panels while still maintaining a clean minimalist aesthetic.... obviously not the same colors as your room but just to give you ideas:












If you want to get artsy you can even do a custom print on acoustic panels and do a 3 panel art piece:


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post #29499 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeneize12 View Post
That's great, thanks for doing this... so the front high speakers you would place them right above the side seats (in the middle) or wider?
This is assuming you go with a 7.1.2 setup. Basically shooting for a pair of Top Middle speakers directly above and maybe 10-15 degrees forward of the listening couch.

In terms of width Dolby recommends having them in line with the Front L/R speakers. A lot of people prefer to have them a bit narrower, more like the commercial cinema layout where they are basically in-line with the midpoint between center and L/R mains... but then again in a cinema you have a huge screen. Regardless, I wouldn't want them wider than the L/R speakers.

If you were going to do a 7.1.4 layout I'd probably shift those TM speakers to be further back and then do Front Heights on the gray part of the ceiling toed in (shooting for a 30-40 degree elevation).

I really think some of the biggest benefit could come from fixing the position of the side surrounds. Right now you have them higher than your back surrounds and pretty far back so there doesn't look to be too much angular separation from the back surrounds. If you can relocate the wall-mounted bookshelf and put the surround on the other side so it's lower and slightly forward of the couch I think you'd hear a nice increase in wrap-around cohesion for side pans.

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post #29500 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 03:13 PM
 
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Nice pics.
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post #29501 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It doesn't have to be. Not at all. You basically have bare, monotone walls currently. If you want to preserve the minimalist look, all you need to do is get decorative 4" panels that tone (or match) the color of the walls. We're not talking about hanging batts of pink fluffy insulation on the wall

If you care about good sound room acoustics are essential to address, and frankly you are much less limited than most people given that this appears to be a somewhat dedicated media space and you have so much bare wall to work with. And it's relatively cheap -- for a few hundred bucks you can dramatically improve the acoustics and clarity of the system.

You probably don't have to cover the entire wall, but 3-4 large panels hanging behind the couch would be of great benefit. Hard to see the front wall but I could even see putting a panel behind each L/R main speaker (to the left right of the TV) to damp that first reflection from the front wall.

Here are some examples of (IMO at least) attractive rooms which incorporate acoustic panels while still maintaining a clean minimalist aesthetic.... obviously not the same colors as your room but just to give you ideas:












If you want to get artsy you can even do a custom print on acoustic panels and do a 3 panel art piece:

Another awesome idea... the more I see what you guys suggest, the more I realise how much of a noob i am in this subject.... this has to be the best community i've seen in a long time. Thanks, I'll defo look into it and probably get some of those rectangle patches, that actually don't look bad at all.
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post #29502 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 03:58 PM
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You can also make custom panels that look like movie posters:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...els-cheap.html

They look great. Maybe one day I'll be motivated enough to do that. For the time being, I stuck with making my own out of a breathable cloth material to match the colour scheme of my theater.
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post #29503 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It doesn't have to be. Not at all. You basically have bare, monotone walls currently. If you want to preserve the minimalist look, all you need to do is get decorative 4" panels that tone (or match) the color of the walls. We're not talking about hanging batts of pink fluffy insulation on the wall

If you care about good sound room acoustics are essential to address, and frankly you are much less limited than most people given that this appears to be a somewhat dedicated media space and you have so much bare wall to work with. And it's relatively cheap -- for a few hundred bucks you can dramatically improve the acoustics and clarity of the system.

You probably don't have to cover the entire wall, but 3-4 large panels hanging behind the couch would be of great benefit. Hard to see the front wall but I could even see putting a panel behind each L/R main speaker (to the left right of the TV) to damp that first reflection from the front wall.

Here are some examples of (IMO at least) attractive rooms which incorporate acoustic panels while still maintaining a clean minimalist aesthetic.... obviously not the same colors as your room but just to give you ideas:




If you want to get artsy you can even do a custom print on acoustic panels and do a 3 panel art piece:


Very timely, since I'm building a dedicated HT room for scratch. I have a general contractor to do the work as part of the overall remodeling we're doing in our new Chicago three bedroom condo this fall, as I don't have the space, time, or the skills to do my own DIY work sadly. After we put in a sound isolating, staggered stud double wall on sides of the room bordering other rooms of the unit, I'm turning to absorption and bass traps. Are those GiK, BP? I'd love to do some modern, abstract art that matches actual art I might have up in the space. And I really like that first picture, with the four panels on the back wall, believe it or not. Just what we'll need behind our leather sofa. That table might be a no-no, though. And are those hardwood floors?

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post #29504 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 05:00 PM
 
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Yes they are...you can put a carpet or tree on top...for better acoustics.
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post #29505 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 05:33 PM
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Yes they are...you can put a carpet or tree on top...for better acoustics.
Either some big area rugs or plush wall to wall carpet would be the ticket....when we put our existing place up on the market, our realtor pushed us to do hardwood floors to replace carpeting in our living room. I almost cried when I heard how the sound changed into an echo chamber with much reduced spaciousness. A large area rug from Home Depot that fit the look in front of the sofa helped, but it hasn't been the same - even with my vaunted Trinnov. Good thing we're moving around the end of next month....where I can FINALLY break out the quartet of Dolby speakers I bought from Aras, and probably move to a couple of pairs (maybe three) of ceiling speakers on unistruts once we get the room more beat into shape and see how the height effects work out with the 3D audio codecs . I can't wait...I know Scott can't!

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post #29506 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 07:59 PM
 
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Either some big area rugs or plush wall to wall carpet would be the ticket....when we put our existing place up on the market, our realtor pushed us to do hardwood floors to replace carpeting in our living room. I almost cried when I heard how the sound changed into an echo chamber with much reduced spaciousness. A large area rug from Home Depot that fit the look in front of the sofa helped, but it hasn't been the same - even with my vaunted Trinnov. Good thing we're moving around the end of next month....where I can FINALLY break out the quartet of Dolby speakers I bought from Aras, and probably move to a couple of pairs (maybe three) of ceiling speakers on unistruts once we get the room more beat into shape and see how the height effects work out with the 3D audio codecs . I can't wait...I know Scott can't!
Stuart, when...you're ready to do the install and setup...ask Keith for tips.

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post #29507 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Actually in the new 2015 Denons there is now a parameter for ceiling height, so no longer stuck with the 8ft assumption.
Hi batpig...how do I get to this option? If I go to Speaker Config setup (Manual), I can only see "set distances" in steps of 0.01m but I dun see the feature to set the distance for Dolby Atmos speakers to ceiling height.

My Atmos speaker has been set to "Small"...

Edit: I guess its for the "newer" models...It seems that the X7200WA does not have this feature to tinker with the dolby Atmos speakers to ceiling height distance. I hoped this "new" feature can be added via a firmware update in the future...this shouldn't be too hard.

Denon X4200W manual: http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4200W/E...SYyvwvohgk.php

Denon X7200WA manual: http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX7200WA/...SYwwqdpazi.php (omiited)

Thanks.

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post #29508 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 10:39 PM
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I notice with Atmos you can't necessarily pinpoint to the ceiling speaker and say/hear where it's coming from. You just get submerged.
If that makes sense.

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post #29509 of 58868 Old 09-11-2015, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by asere View Post
I notice with Atmos you can't necessarily pinpoint to the ceiling speaker and say/hear where it's coming from. You just get submerged.
If that makes sense.

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Indeed! its an incredible codec but will add with the Atmos demo disc on hand you can hear it do both as well . The MM Fury Road disc on the into has a very well done overhead imaging effect with a vog convergence at one point that was pretty cool and once more showed us there's much much more to come
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post #29510 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Very timely, since I'm building a dedicated HT room for scratch. I have a general contractor to do the work as part of the overall remodeling we're doing in our new Chicago three bedroom condo this fall, as I don't have the space, time, or the skills to do my own DIY work sadly. After we put in a sound isolating, staggered stud double wall on sides of the room bordering other rooms of the unit, I'm turning to absorption and bass traps. Are those GiK, BP? I'd love to do some modern, abstract art that matches actual art I might have up in the space. And I really like that first picture, with the four panels on the back wall, believe it or not. Just what we'll need behind our leather sofa. That table might be a no-no, though. And are those hardwood floors?
Stu, those panels BP posted don't appear to be as broadband as you're probably going to want in your space due to their relatively thin size. I'd suggest if you're into custom artwork (and have access to high resolution files or can create them) that you take a look at the thread @blastermaster mentioned above. You could order the custom printed material from Spoonflower, use Roxul battes from Lowe's and have your GC sport up some frames for you for a fraction of what GIK custom printed traps will cost.
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post #29511 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post
Nice looking room. If you're going for Atmos specs (as much as it would be a shame to mess with what looks so nice), I would move your surround speakers to ear height as well as moving your side surrounds forward more, then move your couch away from the wall a bit. You will notice much better sound. Hell, I would even move it forward as it is and recalibrate your setup and see if you notice a difference. At worst, you will be closer to your TV set and be more immersed.

I know some people are saying that 7.1.6 is going to be coming in the future as well as 9.1.6, but I would bank on the usual suspects of receivers staying at 7.1.4. Because of this, I wouldn't install your .2 ceiling speakers as top middle. Rather, I would go with top fronts, then eventually move to top rears for a 7.1.4 setup. Just my 0.02. So in answer to your question, I'd install the top fronts on the grey ceiling.
Agreed on all points. x.x.2 is OK but x.x.4 is significantly better according to everyone who has tried it and whose reports I have seen. One of the AV magazines did a very thorough analysis of this and came firmly to the conclusion that x.x.4 is the config to go for, confirming our own batpig's mo' speakers = mo'better maxim. I too very much doubt if we wil lsee x.x.6 anytime soon from the mainstream manufacturers. We will be using 11 channels max for a long time... and TBH it's more than enough for most rooms of typical size IMO.
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post #29512 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisR. View Post
Sorry if this has been answered before, but is it okay to use Dipoles as side-surounds in a 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos configuration?
Think of it like this: the entire point of object-based sound is greater precision in the placement of sounds in the soundstage. The entire point of Dipoles is less precision and more diffusion of the sound. So why would one expect speakers designed for less precision (of sound placement) to be a great choice for a system designed for more precision? Will they work? Sure they will. Will they be the best you can do? I don't think so. (And Dolby recommend monopoles for a reason IMO).
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post #29513 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 06:53 AM
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Problem is, the most left and right seats in my home theatre are pretty close to the speakers about one foot if somebody sits there. Thats why I'm thinking about using dipoles.
How often does anyone sit in those seats? Do they care especially about top quality cinema sound?

And no matter what speaker type you use, they will still be sitting 1 foot away from them.

If your surrounds are close to someone's ears (especially your own) you may care to consider dual concentric speaker designs (eg from Kef, Tannoy, Pioneer etc). DC designs are in phase right from the driver, whereas conventional 2-way or 3-way designs require a few feet of distance before the sound from each separate driver 'melds' into a coherent whole. DC designs have other advantages but this is a really useful one for those (like me) who have to have speakers closer than ideally desirable. They'll still be 1 foot away from the guys on the ends of the row, but there's nothing you can do about that and Dipoles won't help them anyway. IMO you’d be compromising the precision which Atmos brings, for no real benefit.

In my room, I am usually the only listener, or certainly the only one who GAF about SQ so I aim to optimise for my seat only. On the occasions when someone else is in the room, they are usually too blown away by the big screen, the amazing sound, the Atmos effect etc to care that a speaker is too close to their head. So optimise for the majority of the HT room's use not the minority.
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post #29514 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It doesn't have to be. Not at all. You basically have bare, monotone walls currently. If you want to preserve the minimalist look, all you need to do is get decorative 4" panels that tone (or match) the color of the walls. We're not talking about hanging batts of pink fluffy insulation on the wall

If you care about good sound room acoustics are essential to address, and frankly you are much less limited than most people given that this appears to be a somewhat dedicated media space and you have so much bare wall to work with. And it's relatively cheap -- for a few hundred bucks you can dramatically improve the acoustics and clarity of the system.
Great post batpig. I’d second everything you say. The OP will get huge benefits from applying some acoustic treatments to what looks like an excessively live room right now. And if he follows the ideas in the images you attached, I'd say his room will look more attractive, not less.

I'd add that making one's own panels is real, real easy - even for someone with very minimal DIY skills, using common household tools - and can save an absolute fortune compared with commercially bought panels. Most of the input into making panels is labor, which is why they are so expensive if you buy them commercially.
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post #29515 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 07:31 AM
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Indeed! its an incredible codec but will add with the Atmos demo disc on hand you can hear it do both as well . The MM Fury Road disc on the into has a very well done overhead imaging effect with a vog convergence at one point that was pretty cool and once more showed us there's much much more to come
I agree with MM Fury Road you can pinpoint and get submerged especially the beginning and with other films you only get submerged.

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post #29516 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 07:35 AM
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I agree with MM Fury Road you can pinpoint and get submerged especially the beginning and with other films you only get submerged.

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Gravity (in Atmos) is also good for pinpointing.
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post #29517 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 09:58 AM
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How often does anyone sit in those seats? Do they care especially about top quality cinema sound?

And no matter what speaker type you use, they will still be sitting 1 foot away from them.

If your surrounds are close to someone's ears (especially your own) you may care to consider dual concentric speaker designs (eg from Kef, Tannoy, Pioneer etc). DC designs are in phase right from the driver, whereas conventional 2-way or 3-way designs require a few feet of distance before the sound from each separate driver 'melds' into a coherent whole. DC designs have other advantages but this is a really useful one for those (like me) who have to have speakers closer than ideally desirable. They'll still be 1 foot away from the guys on the ends of the row, but there's nothing you can do about that and Dipoles won't help them anyway. IMO you’d be compromising the precision which Atmos brings, for no real benefit.

In my room, I am usually the only listener, or certainly the only one who GAF about SQ so I aim to optimise for my seat only. On the occasions when someone else is in the room, they are usually too blown away by the big screen, the amazing sound, the Atmos effect etc to care that a speaker is too close to their head. So optimise for the majority of the HT room's use not the minority.
^This . For people that are sitting at the extreme ends of the couch in my theater, it's not ideal. That being said, I've sat at the end and the speaker is maybe a foot and a half from my head and it's amazingly not bad and certainly not noticeable for any friends that come over. I also have the dual concentrics so maybe that helps. 90% of the time it's just me in my theater, so I'm also optimizing it for the place I always sit. The monopoles I have that replaced my bipoles are definitely a step up in price, but I believe that, given the same pricepoint, I would still choose monopoles at ear height over the diffuse sound a bipole/dipole setup gives. I obviously can't test that, though, but the increase in clarity is just astounding. Let me put it this way - yes, I can localize my current speakers a bit more than my bipoles, but at the same time I am hearing ambient sounds that weren't even present before. To me, that's better. Keith, have you found that the speakers seem less localized when listening to an Atmos track? That's what I'm thinking would be the case, but I haven't got my receiver yet. As soon as I get it, I will be all over the forums like a mad man describing my findings.
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post #29518 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 10:15 AM
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^This . For people that are sitting at the extreme ends of the couch in my theater, it's not ideal. That being said, I've sat at the end and the speaker is maybe a foot and a half from my head and it's amazingly not bad and certainly not noticeable for any friends that come over.
Same here when I sit in the end seats. I am always surprised by how reasonable it sounds in such a less than ideal seat. Friends could care less.

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I also have the dual concentrics so maybe that helps. 90% of the time it's just me in my theater, so I'm also optimizing it for the place I always sit.
Exactly my situation too. I can’t quite understand why people will compromise on the MLP when most of their listening is either solo or with people who don't care anyway.

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The monopoles I have that replaced my bipoles are definitely a step up in price, but I believe that, given the same pricepoint, I would still choose monopoles at ear height over the diffuse sound a bipole/dipole setup gives.
Same here. I used to have dipoles and I liked them at the time, but with object audio mixers are aiming for much more precision in where sounds are placed so it seems logical to me to use monopoles now.

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I obviously can't test that, though, but the increase in clarity is just astounding. Let me put it this way - yes, I can localize my current speakers a bit more than my bipoles, but at the same time I am hearing ambient sounds that weren't even present before. To me, that's better. Keith, have you found that the speakers seem less localized when listening to an Atmos track? That's what I'm thinking would be the case, but I haven't got my receiver yet. As soon as I get it, I will be all over the forums like a mad man describing my findings.
Yes - very much so. A good, properly setup system will always have the speakers 'disappearing' but with Atmos mixes the effect is even more so. All my speakers simply disappear totally and are replaced with just 'sound'. I am able to pinpoint individual sounds very, very easily, in space, but they rarely, if ever, seem to emanate from a speaker. It is quite an awesome experience to be totally surrounded by sound, and above you as well, yet without those sounds appearing to come from speakers. You are going to enjoy this!
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post #29519 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 10:22 AM
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I was under the idea that diffusion is best for the rear wall as it gives the impression of a much larger sound field. Absorbtion for the front wall?
Diffusion only works with a minimum of distance, 6 feet or so.

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post #29520 of 58868 Old 09-12-2015, 10:56 AM
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Same here when I sit in the end seats. I am always surprised by how reasonable it sounds in such a less than ideal seat. Friends could care less.



Exactly my situation too. I can’t quite understand why people will compromise on the MLP when most of their listening is either solo or with people who don't care anyway.



Same here. I used to have dipoles and I liked them at the time, but with object audio mixers are aiming for much more precision in where sounds are placed so it seems logical to me to use monopoles now.



Yes - very much so. A good, properly setup system will always have the speakers 'disappearing' but with Atmos mixes the effect is even more so. All my speakers simply disappear totally and are replaced with just 'sound'. I am able to pinpoint individual sounds very, very easily, in space, but they rarely, if ever, seem to emanate from a speaker. It is quite an awesome experience to be totally surrounded by sound, and above you as well, yet without those sounds appearing to come from speakers. You are going to enjoy this!



Great post! So true - I am the MLP! When my friends come over they are just so overwhelmed by the big screen (100") and the sound and reclining seats and happy to not be home watching their 50-inch "totally not calibrated tvs" with their Radio Shack soundbars!
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