4k Upscaling vs Passthrough - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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4k Upscaling vs Passthrough

Hey guy's, first post on the forum. I'll try to make a long story short. I'm about to purchase a 4k ultra tv, specifically from samsung UN65HU9000. Looking to buy a new receiver to match up with my 4k tv, but somewhat confused on something. I'm noticing some receivers say they have 4k passthrough, and others having passthrough and 4k upscaling together. I've done some research on the web, reading articles and even some posts on the avs forum and still confused on exactly what the difference is between them both and if i need one of them in my receiver, or both features in my receiver to pair with my 4k tv.

I'm aware that some of new receivers this year have HDMI 2.0, which I will definitely make sure the receiver I eventually purchase has it. But as i read the specs of some of these new receivers, some of them have 4k passthrough only, while others have 4k passthrough and upscaling. I'm very confused if my receiver need one of them, or both.

From my understanding, 4k tv's have the ability to upscale, so why would my receiver need to have 4k upscaling if the tv already does it...If so, then I would assume 4k passthrough is only necessary to pass the native 4k content to my tv, while my tv does the job of upscaling. That would lead me to believe you only need a receiver with 4k passthrough only.

Then i was thinking what if I get a receiver that has the capability of doing 4k passthrough and upscaling at the same time. If my 4k tv already does the upscaling, and a receiver does it as well, I'm worried that the video transfer will be messed up because the receiver and my tv is upscaling at the same time. Again, this is scrambling my mind to no end lol.

Sorry for the long post guys, i'm just really confused on this certain feature and just wanna make sure i'm well informed to make the right purchase for my receiver. 4k is new, so I guess we're all in the same boat. Looking forward to hearing what you guy's think and to get some concrete information about this issue. Thank You.
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post #2 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:02 AM
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Let the display do any needed scaling.
They are optimized for that particular display so pass through is all you need.
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post #3 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Let the display do any needed scaling.
They are optimized for that particular display so pass through is all you need.
That's what I figured, but still would like to hear some more input from more folks before i make a decision. If 4k passthrough is all that's needed on a receiver, that's great. Then why are company's releasing receiver's with both options, is it just a marketing ploy or something more...But just say my receiver has 4k passthrough and upscaling, and my 4k tv already is capable of upscaling already, I wonder who has 'more power' to do the upscaling. I would presume the tv. I just hope there isn't so to speak 'confusion' between the tv and receiver which leads to messed up video signal because of both devices having the ability to 4k upscale. That's why i'm leaning towards a receiver only capable of doing passthrough only. But again, I'm worried i need both. Even though the tv can upscale, maybe the receiver has to upscale as well. Very confusing.
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post #4 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:23 AM
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The possibility of HDMI handshake issues are always present.
4K or not, passthrough or not.
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post #5 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
The possibility of HDMI handshake issues are always present.
4K or not, passthrough or not.
Is it possible hooking up a receiver to a tv without using HDMI...For example, running all my devices, such as Xbox One, PS4, Cable Box, Bluray Player, directly into tv using HDMI and then just running an optical cable from receiver to tv for sound...If so, does this downgrade sound quality from your surround sound system...This is basically just to avoid the handshake, i wonder if it's possible. But by doing this, it would eliminate your receiver being your central 'hub', forcing you to change inputs on your remote. From my understanding, running everything thru your receiver, with one HDMI plug directly into your tv is most likely ideal...I'm a newbie at receiver's, i apologize for all the questions.
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post #6 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:42 AM
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Don't over think it.
You are trying to plan for too many variables that may or may not come to fruition.

Buy from a reputable dealer that offers no fuss returns and if something doesn't work out you can always return it for something else.

But from experience, the AVR to TV connection should give you much less issues than say a cable to AVR connection.
Some bluray players comes with two HDMI out so that you can hook things up as you describe above.

If I were you i would worry more about what speakers to get.
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post #7 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Don't over think it.
You are trying to plan for too many variables that may or may not come to fruition.

Buy from a reputable dealer that offers no fuss returns and if something doesn't work out you can always return it for something else.

But from experience, the AVR to TV connection should give you much less issues than say a cable to AVR connection.
Some bluray players comes with two HDMI out so that you can hook things up as you describe above.

If I were you i would worry more about what speakers to get.
I feel like i'm overthinking as well lol haha. It's driving me nuts!

BTW trying to decide between the Energy Take Classic 5.1 or the Pioneer SP-PK52FS system.
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post #8 of 49 Old 06-23-2014, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Anybody else have any clear cut information about 4k upscaling and passthrough, thnx.
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post #9 of 49 Old 08-13-2014, 11:10 PM
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Dear OP, did you end up getting the 65HU9000 ? If so which receiver did you pair it with ?

I am pondering the same questions as you, with the adding notion that if the AVR did the upscaling instead of the HU9000, it's less work that the TV has to do and this in my (simplistic) mind ought to help with the lag for gaming, and reduce the heat coming from the already-hot Connect One box.

Does anyone know if this is what happens in reality ?
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post #10 of 49 Old 08-14-2014, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyboy1988 View Post
I feel like i'm overthinking as well lol haha. It's driving me nuts!

BTW trying to decide between the Energy Take Classic 5.1 or the Pioneer SP-PK52FS system.
The Pioneer system is much better than the Take Classics.

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post #11 of 49 Old 08-14-2014, 07:41 AM
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To get things simple here. PM; The only reason for upscaling is the following. If the source is 1080p and you want to upscale to 4k then just turn ON the upscaler and wholaaa; you get the "4k resolution" from a 1080p or lesser source. This works ONLY if the TV supports 4k!... Its a "fake 4k" not real because the source is not native 4k but its "supposed" to looks bit better than a native 1080p. (I really doubt it; dont know).

If your TV is not 4k and you force the receiver to upscale to 4k what you will get is a black screen!..... With passthough; your receiver can pass all audio/video data even if your TV is or is not 4k. Same thing happens when 3D displays was released. Some receivers does not support 3D Passthrough and most people by that time used to bought bluray players with 2 HDMI Outputs; or connect the bluray player directly to the TV and use Optical Cable for audio.

To answer your question about doing that is that you will lose HD Audio (TrueHD and DTS-MA and Dolby Digital Plus) that can't be process via Optical; it works only with HDMI.
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post #12 of 49 Old 08-14-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javygonx View Post
To get things simple here. PM; The only reason for upscaling is the following. If the source is 1080p and you want to upscale to 4k then just turn ON the upscaler and wholaaa; you get the "4k resolution" from a 1080p or lesser source.
Every 4K display has this feature.

Who do you trust to do the best job?
The display manufacturer or a third party AVR maker?

Not to say a AVR won't do a good job, but it is something that one should not worry about.
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post #13 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 05:34 AM
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As we are already in the mid 2015 and few new technologies and new amps are in the market, i thought I will reinitiate this thread.

Why I 4k upscale in amp is just for the audios sake.

i have my television receiver , PS3, cd player, bluray player and all connected to the amp.
i do have a 4k tv which has a one connect box where I can connect all this directly, but then audio goes for a toss, which is the main reason why the amp is here.
So having 4k upscaling in the amp is a good thing.


Having said that, can anyone throw some light as I'm looking into these three models to replace my current receiver :

Marantz 5010
Pioneer SC91
Denon AVR-X4200W

( My feeling is that the SC91 is value for money)

The main reasons why I'm upgrading :

1. My current amp doesnt allow a 3d pass through where i struggle pluging and unplugging my hdmis each and every time i watch 3D blurays
2. It does only 1080 up scaling and no 4k up scaling or pass through
3. No options to play 24 bit flacs, .ape or wav formats
4. No nwetwork features like wifi or bluetooth.

So i hope the upgrade is really worth. Or should I wait for one more year, if any of the technologies are going to be obsolete soon??? Kindly advise.
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post #14 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 05:39 AM
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^^
Whether the upscaling feature in the AVR is of any benefit will depend on whether the video source or TV itself can do just as good of a job or better. Both the SC-91 and X4200W can upscale to/pass-through 4k/60Hz while the SR5010 can upscale to 4k/30Hz and pass through 4k/60Hz.
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Whether the upscaling feature in the AVR is of any benefit will depend on whether the video source or TV itself can do just as good of a job or better. Both the SC-91 and X4200W can upscale to/pass-through 4k/60Hz while the SR5010 can upscale to 4k/30Hz and pass through 4k/60Hz.
Thanks JD. Thats something valid you pointed out.

Thats a big difference 30 /60.


So now the competition stays between the SC-91 & X4200
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post #16 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 06:30 AM
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Well I have a question. I will be purchasing a 4K TV at some point in time. (1-2 years)


I want a new receiver now. Do I really need to buy a receiver that has HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2?


Would this be "kind of" future proof? Is it a must have?


I'm looking at X2100 Vs. X2200


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post #17 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dankfoot View Post
Well I have a question. I will be purchasing a 4K TV at some point in time. (1-2 years)


I want a new receiver now. Do I really need to buy a receiver that has HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2?


Would this be "kind of" future proof? Is it a must have?


I'm looking at X2100 Vs. X2200


Thanks

An AVR without HDCP 2.2 (ie. X2100W) will require purchasing a "dual" HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 Blu Ray player so you can pass the 4k video to the TV with one HDMI output and the HD audio to the AVR with the other HDMI output whereas using a 2015 model (ie. X2200W) you can pass a single HDMI to the AVR for both audio and video.
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post #18 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 07:38 AM
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Thanks JD,


Is one really better than the other?


Based on your reply it seems I can just purchase the X2100 (lesser price)


Must haves:
All new audio formats
3D pass-through
7.1
2 Zones
4K


I do not need Atmos


Thanks

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post #19 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dankfoot View Post
Thanks JD,


Is one really better than the other?


Based on your reply it seems I can just purchase the X2100 (lesser price)


Must haves:
All new audio formats
3D pass-through
7.1
2 Zones
4K


I do not need Atmos


Thanks
Depends on what you mean by "all new audio formats." Formats haven't changed in the last 7 years, so the "new" formats would be Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround Upmixer (replaces DD PLII, PLIIx, PLIIz) and DTS:X/DTS Neural:X Upmixer (replaces DTS Neo:6, DTS Neo:X). Only some of the newer 2015 models (eg.. X2200W) will feature both of these "new" audio formats.
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post #20 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 07:49 AM
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Cool Thanks man. Your help is always appreciated.

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post #21 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dankfoot View Post
Well I have a question. I will be purchasing a 4K TV at some point in time. (1-2 years)


I want a new receiver now. Do I really need to buy a receiver that has HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2?


Would this be "kind of" future proof? Is it a must have?


I'm looking at X2100 Vs. X2200
If I needed to buy a receiver today I think it would be a mistake to not pay a few more dollars to get HDCP 2.2 support unless you only keep receivers for a very short time or UHD BD support is not a priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
An AVR without HDCP 2.2 (ie. X2100W) will require purchasing a "dual" HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 Blu Ray player so you can pass the 4k video to the TV with one HDMI output and the HD audio to the AVR with the other HDMI output whereas using a 2015 model (ie. X2200W) you can pass a single HDMI to the AVR for both audio and video.
Counting on the availability of dual output UHD BD player at a reasonable cost is not something I would recommend. Today, there are only a handful of players that offer this feature and they are mostly very expensive. I am hoping that the first generation of players, which are likely to be sold at a significant premium have this feature but I have not seen confirmation of this.

If that doesn't happen, you will need to replace your receiver or insert a switch or a splitter of some sort to pull the audio out. This just adds one more point of failure.
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post #22 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dalto View Post
If I needed to buy a receiver today I think it would be a mistake to not pay a few more dollars to get HDCP 2.2 support unless you only keep receivers for a very short time or UHD BD support is not a priority.


Counting on the availability of dual output UHD BD player at a reasonable cost is not something I would recommend. Today, there are only a handful of players that offer this feature and they are mostly very expensive. I am hoping that the first generation of players, which are likely to be sold at a significant premium have this feature but I have not seen confirmation of this.

If that doesn't happen, you will need to replace your receiver or insert a switch or a splitter of some sort to pull the audio out. This just adds one more point of failure.
1. A current dual HDMI BDP generally only costs no more than about $75-$100 (eg. $250) over it's comparable single output model. No reason to think the difference won't be similar with the new 4k UHD BDPs to be released later this fall.
2. As we are dealing with HDCP and not HDMI, a switch/splitter that can do this would likely cost upwards of $300.
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post #23 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 02:13 PM
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So if you have an HDCP 2.2 player it will not pass through the non 2.2 receiver to make the handshake with the TV? I guess you would then need to connect the device directly to the TV, would you loose anything if you then ran an optical cable to the receiver?
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post #24 of 49 Old 08-04-2015, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jhixson View Post
So if you have an HDCP 2.2 player it will not pass through the non 2.2 receiver to make the handshake with the TV? I guess you would then need to connect the device directly to the TV, would you loose anything if you then ran an optical cable to the receiver?
Not sure you would notice, but optical cannot pass through HD audio on Blu Rays, rather only standard DD/DTS audio.
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post #25 of 49 Old 08-22-2015, 08:41 AM
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I know the 91 will pass 4k but will it also pass DolbyVision HDR as well?
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post #26 of 49 Old 08-22-2015, 09:48 AM
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I know the 91 will pass 4k but will it also pass DolbyVision HDR as well?
Since it does not specify whether it's HDMI 2.0 or 2.0a, we don't know. Since it's HDCP 2.2, I would be surprised if it didn't, but again, it didn't specify (like some other manufacturers do).

To sum up where this thread is heading, if you're buying a (new) AVR, you want it to be HDMI 2.0a / HDCP 2.2; that way it is not a limiting factor in the audio/video chain.

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post #27 of 49 Old 08-22-2015, 04:05 PM
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Since it does not specify whether it's HDMI 2.0 or 2.0a, we don't know. Since it's HDCP 2.2, I would be surprised if it didn't, but again, it didn't specify (like some other manufacturers do).

To sum up where this thread is heading, if you're buying a (new) AVR, you want it to be HDMI 2.0a / HDCP 2.2; that way it is not a limiting factor in the audio/video chain.
Some of what I'm reading online says HDMI 2.0a will be firmware upgradable...true?
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post #28 of 49 Old 08-23-2015, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clemdog View Post
I know the 91 will pass 4k but will it also pass DolbyVision HDR as well?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clemdog View Post
Some of what I'm reading online says HDMI 2.0a will be firmware upgradable...true?

True.
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post #29 of 49 Old 09-09-2015, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharakesh View Post
As we are already in the mid 2015 and few new technologies and new amps are in the market, i thought I will reinitiate this thread.

Why I 4k upscale in amp is just for the audios sake.

i have my television receiver , PS3, cd player, bluray player and all connected to the amp.
i do have a 4k tv which has a one connect box where I can connect all this directly, but then audio goes for a toss, which is the main reason why the amp is here.
So having 4k upscaling in the amp is a good thing.


Having said that, can anyone throw some light as I'm looking into these three models to replace my current receiver :

Marantz 5010
Pioneer SC91
Denon AVR-X4200W

( My feeling is that the SC91 is value for money)

The main reasons why I'm upgrading :

1. My current amp doesnt allow a 3d pass through where i struggle pluging and unplugging my hdmis each and every time i watch 3D blurays
2. It does only 1080 up scaling and no 4k up scaling or pass through
3. No options to play 24 bit flacs, .ape or wav formats
4. No nwetwork features like wifi or bluetooth.

So i hope the upgrade is really worth. Or should I wait for one more year, if any of the technologies are going to be obsolete soon??? Kindly advise.
I just got a Samsung HU8750 TV (4k TV) and I'm using an older Denon AVR2310 receiver. All my sources are 1080p or less. I use the Denon as the hub to connect a blu ray player and Charter (tv channel provider) DVR box. Worked good.
I then wanted to use my TV to stream movies from sources like HBO Go and use the digital optical out to connect to the Receiver. Didn't work. The Samsung manual says it only works with Dolby Digital 5.1 and I suppose the Denon doesn't decode that. I am now in the process of buying a new receiver with latest HDMI 2.0a, HDCP 2.2, ARC, 4k, etc.
My question is do receivers with 4K pass through separate the audio before passing the signal to the TV, or does the TV separate it and send the audio back through the HDMI ARC circuit.
My old Denon separated it when turn on and passed both when is standby, but I've read (BlueRay forum post) that HDCP 2.2 encrypts both audio and video and that both signals are passed to the TV regardless if the receiver is turned on or in standby mode.
The second question (if answer to above is they don't separate) is do receivers with up conversion technology separate the 4k audio and video signals?
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post #30 of 49 Old 09-10-2015, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyboy1988 View Post
Anybody else have any clear cut information about 4k upscaling and passthrough, thnx.
Let me make this simple for you

4K Upscaling = Upgrade image sources from 1080p or lower to a 4K signal (Makes image look better if sources come from 1080p or lower, such as Xbox 360 etc)

4K Passthrough = Image sources from 4k signals passes through without upscaling to 4k (The image will not be needed to upscale or upgrade since its already 4k)
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