Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geebo View Post
Again, I don't listen to test files and I'll bet a lot of others don't.

I did play the test file and I did hear what you're referring to. But I have also had the XMC since July 2014 and have never experienced that with any Flacs, CDs or DVD/BD Audio whether it be movies or concerts and that covers a lot of listening time and that also includes the LZ music I have. So why should these test files' behavior bother me?
I don't really understand the hostility towards IgorZep for merely discussing this issue. Just because it can be highlighted with test signals, that are specifically made to do so, does not mean that it does not affect day-to-day usage with content. And I believe this effects normal usage pretty much and may very well be the root cause for the issue Bill has been whining about for quite some time (rightfully so). We just seem to get a handle on it.
Or are you telling me, that you do not experience any clicking or thumping with your XMC-1 when you start to play real content?
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Last edited by buletti; 05-24-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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post #2762 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by POCOBEAR View Post
+1 Bill, slightly in Igor's defence perhaps not being a native english speaker, he doesn't understand the way we use or react to the word "fanatic"?
I am very sorry if/when I misunderstood someone... But... understand me too. This dialog is strange:
- XMC-1 pops and skips on some tracks
- Forget about it, it sounds fantastic...
- .... ????
I don't know how to react to it already... If this was sent just as a general opinion and not a response to my post about specific issue, then I wouldn't react as I did. But in the context of the issue - this sounds as an aggressive marketing. And/or ... demagogical trick. FilmMixer loves them very much when something 'inconvenient' is said/asked.
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post #2763 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buletti View Post
I don't really understand the hostility towards IgorZep for merely discussing this issue. Just because it can be highlighted with test signals, that are specifically made to do so, does not mean that it does not affect day-to-day usage with content. And I believe this affects normal usage pretty much and may very well be the root cause for the issue Bill has been whining about for quite some time (rightfully so). We just seem to get a handle on it.
Or are you telling me, that you do not experiencing any clicking or thumping with your XMC-1 when you start to play real content?
I have never gotten what I got with the test file. That is, complete drop outs in the lower frequency section. I assume that is what he is talking about. With DSD I can sometimes get the thump with my Oppo 103 when playing an SACD. I don't get it when playing DSD files from a hard drive connected to the Oppo.
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post #2764 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
From everything I read YOU are the only one with those issues.
Not true. Several people could reproduce Igor's finding.

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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
So stop insulting those that are not having issues and enjoying the unit. I am far from a fanboy. I have gotten into many arguments calling out emo for some of their odd dealings and fanboys looking through rose colored glasses. But the xmc is legit and the proof is in the sound
You're confusing "sounds good to me" with "works properly".
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post #2765 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not true. Several people could reproduce Igor's finding.



You're confusing "sounds good to me" with "works properly".
Not really. It works fine. Are there some issues. Yes. But my denon also had quite a few issues. It wouldn't stay connected to Internet. Lost its atmos settings randomly. Needs factory reset quite a few times. But it worked. Gads some quirks but worked. So you are confusing the same thing if I'm not mistaken.

Oh and he xmc sounds much better than the denon
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post #2766 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buletti View Post
I don't really understand the hostility towards IgorZep for merely discussing this issue. Just because it can be highlighted with test signals, that are specifically made to do so, does not mean that it does not affect day-to-day usage with content. And I believe this affects normal usage pretty much and may very well be the root cause for the issue Bill has been whining about for quite some time (rightfully so). We just seem to get a handle on it.
Or are you telling me, that you do not experiencing any clicking or thumping with your XMC-1 when you start to play real content?

I think somewhere something was lost in the translation ( English not being the OP native langue), a few of us were trying to identified Igor's? Issue/s by asking what source, player, how it was being played, input etc. FM even went as far as to assess the situation, by walking him off the ledge.. I've encounter a the sacd/dsd thump static type sound, and I've voice my concern, and will be waiting on a fix, as all I can do for the moment.

As to call us marketing/sales people that's far fetch, and boarding the ridiculous... As for one Brian has taken so much heat from speaking his mind over at the lounge for months. Bill is another member that has spoken against the real FANATICS at the lounge, enough so that they have excommunicate him indefinitely!

There are other members here that just speak their mind over at the Lounge too, and I just can't see any of the pulling punched here!Lack of FANBOY mentality!

I love the sound of this unit and have posted at the Lounge what would actually make this unit a GREAT SSP is a fix for the quirky little issues with a firmware, which isn't going to happen over night..All we can do is voice the issues, so we experiencing can communicate those issues as a group back to Emotiva bigwigs!

I believe that we're going to see a new firmware soon(3.1?), right around the release of Stereophile July issue for maximum exposure +

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post #2767 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Not really. It works fine. Are there some issues. Yes. But my denon also had quite a few issues. It wouldn't stay connected to Internet. Lost its atmos settings randomly. Needs factory reset quite a few times. But it worked. Gads some quirks but worked. So you are confusing the same thing if I'm not mistaken.

Oh and he xmc sounds much better than the denon
It's completely irrelevant if something sounds better or worse or if Denon is better or worse than Emotiva. The only relevant thought is if the device works as it should. If a AV processor plays audible clicks although there is no click in the source signal than it does NOT work as it should. Isn't that really obvious?
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post #2768 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by geebo View Post
I have never gotten what I got with the test file. That is, complete drop outs in the lower frequency section. I assume that is what he is talking about. With DSD I can sometimes get the thump with my Oppo 103 when playing an SACD. I don't get it when playing DSD files from a hard drive connected to the Oppo.
From what I've seen it's probably not entirely related to the frequency of the tone. I believe the most critical aspect of the test tone sequence is that the individual test tones are separated by a short section of "perfect silence" in between. And it seems that the digital representation of this "perfect silence" is key here. Unfortunately tho we can find such sections quite often at the beginning of discs or between tracks that are not cross faded.
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Last edited by buletti; 05-24-2015 at 11:18 AM.
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post #2769 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
It's completely irrelevant if something sounds better or worse or if Denon is better or worse than Emotiva. The only relevant thought is if the device works as it should. If a AV processor plays audible clicks although there is no click in the source signal than it does NOT worko as it should. Isn't that really obvious?
You said doesn't work. That's completely different

Works but with issues is what should be stated. No other way. My car doesn't work means it won't turn on. My car works but with issues could mean it gets me where I want but the steering wheel shakes. Isn't THAT really obvious.

The main point here is just because you are experiencing issues that I am not. Doesn't mean I am a fanatic or in marketing for Emotiva. And to state such insults me.

That's all. I didn't say oiooh these issues don't matter cause it sounds great. That's YOU putting words into my mouth.

He asked why everyone is telling him to return it and I offered my thoughts why they did. Cause they are sick of hearing him complain it doesn't work to his standards. Then when people offer their experience is different he insults them. Pretty simple. Not sure why you are picking on my comments. I was Emily tying to help him understand why people are posting the way they are
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post #2770 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by buletti View Post
From what I've seen it's probably not entirely related to the frequency of the tone. I believe the most critical aspect of the test tone sequence is that the individual test tones are separated by a short section of "perfect silence" in between. And it seems that the digital representation of this "perfect silence" is key here. Unfortunately tho we can find such sections quite often at the beginning of discs or between tracks that are not cross faded.
I asked for some examples and all I got was a disc I don't have and "... Some of the Led-Zeppelin discs too..." and later that I could check some out in sound editing software to find some. Sorry, but I'm not going to go out of my way to look for a problem that probably doesn't affect me. Do you have any real music examples I might try?
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post #2771 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 11:46 AM
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Quite a soap opera:relieved:
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post #2772 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 12:14 PM
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I'm not sure it is related to any content on a specific disc. I made some testing with my system which only has 2 sources. I can reproduce the clicking in the following cases

HTPC:
  • When switching any tracks in a playlist
  • When starting any video file
Bluray/SACD player (Sony BDP S370)
  • During the read-in of a SACD
  • On stopping a SACD
  • For the first audio track of a Bluray (typically some sort of trailer)
So I'd guess it is more an issue of switching digital streams rather than content related. The chromatic scale test file seems to simulate the stream switching quite effectively. And since it is "content" it also proves that there might be "real" content that could trigger this issue.

Is there any news on when to expect the new firmware version 3.1?
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post #2773 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by buletti View Post
I'm not sure it is related to any content on a specific disc. I made some testing with my system which only has 2 sources. I can reproduce the clicking in the following cases

HTPC:
  • When switching any tracks in a playlist
  • When starting any video file
Bluray/SACD player (Sony BDP S370)
  • During the read-in of a SACD
  • On stopping a SACD
  • For the first audio track of a Bluray (typically some sort of trailer)
So I'd guess it is more an issue of switching digital streams rather than content related. The chromatic scale test file seems to simulate the stream switching quite effectively. And since it is "content" it also proves that there might be "real" content that could trigger this issue.

Is there any news on when to expect the new firmware version 3.1?
Not that I'm aware of. I only read that the Mac/Dirac LE issues are holding it up.
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post #2774 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 12:40 PM
 
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Just tried it out

Zero clicking or popping with 3 different sacd's in pcm. Loud thuds with dsd
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post #2775 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
It's completely irrelevant if something sounds better or worse or if Denon is better or worse than Emotiva. The only relevant thought is if the device works as it should. If a AV processor plays audible clicks although there is no click in the source signal than it does NOT work as it should. Isn't that really obvious?
Really . So if sound is irrelevant why don't we all dump our XMC-1s and get a $300 AVR that doesn't have the clicking issue. What is really obvious to me is that once you personally latch on to something there is no letting it go. You are here in this thread as a non owner and in one of the Oppo 105 threads as a non owner going on and on and on about how these components don't work properly. Well for some owners of the XMC-1 and the Oppo 105 they work just fine . I know "ignorance is bliss" your favorite catch phrase when someone has a different outlook than you . Maybe you should focus your time on badgering Emotiva and Oppo to correct their components than the members in this thread that have differing opinions .

Bill
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post #2776 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
It's completely irrelevant if something sounds better or worse or if Denon is better or worse than Emotiva. The only relevant thought is if the device works as it should. If a AV processor plays audible clicks although there is no click in the source signal than it does NOT work as it should. Isn't that really obvious?
Markus..

It's our choice to live with the issue or not...

I knew going in Emotiva's reputation for fixing issues, etc... and that I would certainly not expect the same type of response to said issues from such a small company...

The functional issues are far and away outweighed by my enjoyment of the unit..

You spend a lot of time and effort pointing out the flaws.. that's fine... but you can't keep us what should be a deal breaker for us..

Just my .02.
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post #2777 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:25 PM
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Really . So if sound is irrelevant [...]
Not what I've said. Please reread my post. I've said that it is irrelevant if something sounds good or not when all we're trying to do is to assess if it works properly. A recording can sound good or bad but a device (or one of its sub-functions) can only work or not work properly. The latter is what we're talking about the last few pages.

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post #2778 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Markus..

It's our choice to live with the issue or not...

I knew going in Emotiva's reputation for fixing issues, etc... and that I would certainly not expect the same type of response to said issues from such a small company...

The functional issues are far and away outweighed by my enjoyment of the unit..

You spend a lot of time and effort pointing out the flaws.. that's fine... but you can't keep us what should be a deal breaker for us..

Just my .02.
Marc..

You're completely missing the point.

Igor found a potential bug and posted a test signal that reveals the problem by simply listening to it.

The first thing I would do is try to reproduce the bug. If I can't the problem might be just a malfunction of a particular unit. This would be constructive and help the other user.

In the case that I can reproduce the bug I would get in contact with Emotiva and describe the behavior to them. This would be constructive and help all users if the bug gets identified and fixed.

Accusing him (and now me) of trying to take away your "enjoyment" of that product is absurd.
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post #2779 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not what I've said. Please reread my post. I've said that it is irrelevant if something sounds good or not when all we're trying to do is to assess if it works properly. A recording can sound good or bad but a device (or one of its sub-functions) can only work or not work properly. The latter is what we're talking about the last few pages.
Actually it's EXACTLY what you said:
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It's completely irrelevant if something sounds better or worse
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post #2780 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
I am very sorry if/when I misunderstood someone... But... understand me too. This dialog is strange:
- XMC-1 pops and skips on some tracks
- Forget about it, it sounds fantastic...
- .... ????
I don't know how to react to it already... If this was sent just as a general opinion and not a response to my post about specific issue, then I wouldn't react as I did. But in the context of the issue - this sounds as an aggressive marketing. And/or ... demagogical trick. FilmMixer loves them very much when something 'inconvenient' is said/asked.
Please Igor..

I've not tried, in the least, to ignore the issue.

I choose to live with it as it isn't a big issue for me.

Return the unit if you can't live with certain things.. but don't badger me, or question my insight and opinion as invalid because of my choice...

Knowing with eyes fully open what issues there were with the XMC when I purchased, and fully aware that new ones might pop up as new FW and features rolled out BASED ON THE TRACK RECORD OF EMOTIVA IN THE PAST, I am completely happy with my purchase because it sounds good to me... and I have a highly trained skill set to back that opinion up.. as a matter of fact, I get paid to give said opinion every day, and have for the last 25 years of my professional life...

You bought one fully knowing the Emotive track record... and don't single them out... I've talked to Classe and Anthem owners who have had similar issues..

There is nothing to be gained by you and Markus complaining or berating others here.. or treating us like we're stupid.

Take it up with Oppo, Emotive, etc.... that would truly be a help to others...
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post #2781 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:36 PM
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Actually it's EXACTLY what you said:
Yes, exactly. The more specific I get the less you seem to understand it.

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post #2782 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:44 PM
 
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Yes, exactly. The more specific I get the less you seem to understand it.
Sorry oh wise one. Little ole me no understandy wut ur seyin' sowwy
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post #2783 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:47 PM
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^
Don't be childish. If post 2768 needs explanation then let me know.

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post #2784 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:53 PM
 
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^
Don't be childish. If post 2768 needs explanation then let me know.
I was just fooling around to lighten the mood. Sheesh
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post #2785 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Marc..

You're completely missing the point.

Igor found a potential bug and posted a test signal that reveals the problem by simply listening to it.

The first thing I would do is try to reproduce the bug. If I can't the problem might be just a malfunction of a particular unit. This would be constructive and help the other user.

In the case that I can reproduce the bug I would get in contact with Emotiva and describe the behavior to them. This would be constructive and help all users if the bug gets identified and fixed.

Accusing him (and now me) of trying to take away your "enjoyment" of that product is absurd.
Markus..

I never accused you or him of that.. every time you engage me in a discussion you seem to end up in a contrary position to mine... I'm used to it..

I said he was questioning my decision to live with any issues, or that ignoring them and valuing the subjective sound quality of the XMC over the inconveniences, was some kind of fault or I am wrong to do so, or I am trying to use basic age old debate tactics to bolster my ineffectual argument, or.... that's the way I read it.

Like you have done many times in the past, you put it on us to do the research for the issues you seem to look very hard to uncover... as if you can't wait to spring out of the proverbial jack in the box and scream "Gotcha!"

I don't know if there truly is an issue like the one you two are discussing.. and frankly I don't care if there is.

I enjoy the XMC.. from what I have heard, as have others I've invited other AVS members over to hear, has been subjectively pleasing.. when I listen to MY WORK, I'm not missing anything obvious...

Quite frankly I have much more important stuff to do with my time that trying to replicate the issue you and Igor seem to have found.. I really don't care if I'm being honest..

I come home after work and turn it on when I have some precious free time.. and I love what I hear...

Most of my time is spent with my wife and daughters.. if they weren't properly reproducing low frequencies or snapping when playing DSD files off of disc I might take them to a doctor immediately.. as it stands there are issues with them growing up, being pre teens, putting a roof over their heads, moving my career forward, trying to be healthy, etc.. I have my priorities..

Engaging with you are Igor or your many crusades isn't even on my list...

This is stereo gear.. it's not impertinent like that in the least..

Life's too short... good day.
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post #2786 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 02:02 PM
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^
For someone who claims to not care you seem to care a lot
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post #2787 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
^
Don't be childish. If post 2768 needs explanation then let me know.
Markus... I just have to point it out..

How many exchanges do you start that end up in you having to explain your self many times over..

Maybe it's the way YOU communicate, maybe it is the way YOU read what is being posted, that elicits those kind of responses..

IMO, that happens so often that maybe the problem doesn't ALWYAS lie with the others you are communicating with.
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post #2788 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 02:05 PM
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For someone who claims to not care you seem to care a lot
I think my recent posting activity and involvement on these boards proves the opposite.
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post #2789 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 02:08 PM
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Not really - two posts within 1 minute
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Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2790 of 7551 Old 05-24-2015, 02:09 PM
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Wow, what a food fight... I still haven't gotten mine out of the box. Other things came up this weekend, like work and doggie issues, just haven't had time. I did get my Sonos Connect running, had it since Christmas, and it's really cool now that I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC files (only a few hundred CDs in contrast to the several thousand LPs I used to own, but still a lot of time). I am curious to see if I have any of these digital interface issues since I plan to use its digital (coax or optical) outputs instead of the analog outputs I'm using now.

I had to get my new (second) "media server" (WES610) to link in my network; Linksys/Cisco did not make allowances for two since they have the same default URL. Fortunately DHCP worked and eventually both were found and linked up to the router. The new one is unplugged again until I get my XMC-1 out; hopefully everything will hook up OK.

On topic: I find it very interesting that analog inputs work fine even when going through Dirac or whatever. That implies the problem is the digital processing before the EQ/Dirac processing and before the DACs and all the output stages. I would have guessed a glitch in the DAC/analog output buffers, like a DAC glitch. The combination of DSD glitching but not other formats and now this new bug seems like something Emotiva should be able to track down and fix in FW. At least that's my hopeful viewpoint as of today...

I have run into problems in the past (as an IC designer) when the system didn't play well with zero-padded data. I have seen issues when 0's were added but mid-scale was actually say 0111 for a 4-bit converter. The result was a half-scale step that would whack all the analog buffers in the chain and generate a huge glitch that rippled through the output (this was RF/mW stuff, not audio, but the concept is the same). Also issues when LF signals modulated the AGC, PLL or whatever...

I suspect a lot of the angst would be less if we were all face-to-face. OTOH, maybe not. As an engineer, I handed today's Dilbert to my son (an engineering physics/CS major at Mines) and said "Dilbert is Dad".

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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