Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread - Page 97 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2881 of 7551 Old 05-28-2015, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geebo View Post
Here is an REW comparison of the two.
So if I am reading this correctly Socketman's file will give you a small boost below 200 hz vs the other 90 degree file and also a small boost between 2khz to 6khz. Interesting.
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post #2882 of 7551 Old 05-28-2015, 11:50 PM
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Finally got my XMC-1 yesterday which I ordered on April 30 (doesn't this seem like a long time?). I thought I'd share my first impressions. The main reason I bought this SSP was to provide high quality 2.1 channel audio playback with bass management integrated into my 7.2 channel home theater system. Japanese receivers just don't sound good enough for 2 channel audio and the boutique brands are too expensive and often have no available room correction.

So far I've tested 2.2 channel audio with only rudimentary set-up of speaker distance, levels, cross-overs, and stereo subwoofers. No surrounds hooked up and no Dirac yet. I've tested the USB and HDMI inputs using DVD-A iso's, SACD iso's (DSD converted to PCM), CD-Rez, and Hi-Rez FLAC files. For playback software I used J.River, Foobar and Kodi (XBMC). I did all of my playback testing on a HTPC. Sorry, I don't use those (obsolete?) shiny discs anymore.

Comparing the XMC-1 to my high quality 2 channel pre-amp (Stello Ai500), I was very impressed. The XMC-1 had a very dynamic sound, with great clarity, a nice soundstage and imaging. The bass was very punchy and the subs (Rythmik E15HPs) blended very well with the main speakers (Aerial Acoustics 7T).

If I had to chose between the HDMI and USB inputs I would give the HDMI a slight edge. Both inputs produced excellent sound but the USB input produced very slight popping or clicking sounds when switching from track to track manually. Interestingly, this effect became more pronounced as the size of the music files increased. It was most pronounced with the SACD iso files, better with the Hi-Rez FLAC files and almost completely imperceptible with CD-Rez FLAC files. The HDMI input was always flawless with all files.

Next step is to hook up the center and surrounds and set up Dirac this weekend. I have a few questions that I was wondering about:

1. Because I bought the Dirac Live update, is there any point in trying the Dirac LE first?
2. Regardless which playback software I use, my display shows 24 - 44.1 for the bit-rate and sample rate when I play standard 16-44 FLAC files. I've triple checked the audio settings in all three players and Windows 7. Sample rates are always correctly displayed with any of the hi-rez files. I've got the latest 3.0 firmware. Does anyone else have this issue? Any suggestions? I'm trying to figure out if this is a XMC-1 issue or if I'm doing something wrong.
3. Finally, will Dirac be available with multi-channel PCM inputs (eg. DVD-A or SACD)?

Thanks,
Terry
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post #2883 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 12:18 AM
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Here's misofu with the bass boost from the Harman curve shown in http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/247
Should give you plenty of bass.
Attached Files
File Type: txt misofu-haba-90deg.txt (8.4 KB, 33 views)

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post #2884 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdkiller View Post
1. Because I bought the Dirac Live update, is there any point in trying the Dirac LE first?
2. Regardless which playback software I use, my display shows 24 - 44.1 for the bit-rate and sample rate when I play standard 16-44 FLAC files. I've triple checked the audio settings in all three players and Windows 7. Sample rates are always correctly displayed with any of the hi-rez files. I've got the latest 3.0 firmware. Does anyone else have this issue? Any suggestions? I'm trying to figure out if this is a XMC-1 issue or if I'm doing something wrong.
3. Finally, will Dirac be available with multi-channel PCM inputs (eg. DVD-A or SACD)?
Hi and welcome to the XMC-1 owners club

1. If you have Dirac Live I'd say there is no point is trying LE first. Live has extra features you can use.

2. Emotiva have confirmed there is currently no way they can reliably detect the bit rate so they display 24-bit.

3. Dirac is active for multi-channel PCM so long as you've chosen the Dirac speaker preset.
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post #2885 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 04:15 AM
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If I recall correctly, I get display rates displayed correctly if I use the USB connection AND set the bit rate in the Windows control panel/sound screen.

For JRiver, there are instructions on getting the best out of your system in The Emotiva Lounge ( http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...dia-center-xda )
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post #2886 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
So if I am reading this correctly Socketman's file will give you a small boost below 200 hz vs the other 90 degree file and also a small boost between 2khz to 6khz. Interesting.

I think it's the other way around. But at any rate the difference is only about 1dB anywhere across the band.
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post #2887 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geebo View Post
I think it's the other way around.
You are both wrong and right at the same time At lower frequencies misofu will pull down the measured SPL a bit more so DL will see less SPL therefore bass will be louder than Socketman's file. It's the other way around at around 3kHz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geebo View Post
But at any rate the difference is only about 1dB anywhere across the band.
1dB over a wide range can have a significant impact on what is heard. Small dips and peaks not so much.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 05-29-2015 at 06:12 AM.
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post #2888 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Oblow View Post
Hi Bill

As a failsafe you can backup all your settings ( including Dirac ) on a flash drive from the XMC-1. So if your not satisfied with the full settings you can use the LE settings until you find one more to your liking.
Dennis,

Thanks for the suggestion .

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post #2889 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Each mic has a different response curve so each mic needs to be calibrated individually. Socketman's calibration file is valid for his mic but not for others. Here's a comparison of Socketman's calibration and millst's:
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Why don't you just use the file I had posted??
As you stated in the earlier above post that Socketman's mic file is valid for his mic but not for other mics. So I'm curious as to why you would suggest the mic file you posted over any other file posted. I'm assuming the file you posted was calibrated for a specific mic. So it's kind of a crap shoot on how it will work on any other mic. Is that correct? Or are you changing your opinion that each mic needs to be calibrated individually?

Bill

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post #2890 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
As you stated in the earlier above post that Socketman's mic file is valid for his mic but not for other mics. So I'm curious as to why you would suggest the mic file you posted over any other file posted. I'm assuming the file you posted was calibrated for a specific mic. So it's kind of a crap shoot on how it will work on any other mic. Is that correct? Or are you changing your opinion that each mic needs to be calibrated individually?

Bill
I think what he is saying is he took multiple EMM cal files and averaged them, that should theoretically be better than just taking Socketman's one cal data point if you are trying to match this with your mic.

I haven't had a chance to try this one yet, but am looking forward to it.
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post #2891 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
As you stated in the earlier above post that Socketman's mic file is valid for his mic but not for other mics. So I'm curious as to why you would suggest the mic file you posted over any other file posted. I'm assuming the file you posted was calibrated for a specific mic. So it's kind of a crap shoot on how it will work on any other mic. Is that correct? Or are you changing your opinion that each mic needs to be calibrated individually?

Bill
As mentioned earlier misofu is an average of 3 individual EMM-1 mic calibrations. Therefore it is intended to be used with an EMM-1 only.

Furthermore you have to distinguish between having an individual EMM-1 calibration file or not:
Dirac LE/Live + Emo supplied calibration file -> use misofu
Dirac LE/Live + specific 3rd party calibrated file -> use specific 3rd party calibrated file

Markus

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post #2892 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milwaukeesk View Post
I think what he is saying is he took multiple EMM cal files and averaged them, that should theoretically be better than just taking Socketman's one cal data point if you are trying to match this with your mic.

I haven't had a chance to try this one yet, but am looking forward to it.
That could very well be true. But how would one know that to be true until the mic file is used. It still seems to contradict Markus' earlier belief that each mic should be calibrated individually.

Bill

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post #2893 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
As mentioned earlier misofu is an average of 3 individual EMM-1 mic calibrations. Therefore it is intended to be used with an EMM-1 only.

Furthermore you have to distinguish between having an individual EMM-1 calibration file or not:
Dirac LE/Live + Emo supplied calibration file -> use misofu
Dirac LE/Live + specific 3rd party calibrated file -> use specific 3rd party calibrated file
So you no longer feel that each mic should be calibrated individually?

Bill

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post #2894 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
That could very well be true. But how would one know that to be true until the mic file is used. It still seems to contradict Markus' earlier belief that each mic should be calibrated individually.

Bill
Where's the contradiction. By the way, I'm not talking about belief here. A mic calibration file either matches a specific mic or it doesn't.

Markus

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post #2895 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
So you no longer feel that each mic should be calibrated individually?

Bill
Do you even read my posts? Of course I do "feel that each mic should be calibrated individually". I never stated anything else. I'm just offering a better mic calibration file for those that don't calibrate their mic for whatever reason.
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post #2896 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:43 AM
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Where's the contradiction. By the way, I'm not talking about belief here. A mic calibration file either matches a specific mic or it doesn't.
The contradiction is that you stated earlier that Socketman's file that he posted was only valid for his mic. Now you are posting a file with a combination of multiple EMM cal files for XMC-1 owners to try. That's the contradiction IMO. I appreciate your efforts of posting this new mic file and I'll try it in the near future. The issue that I have is that you posted earlier that it wasn't correct to use a mic file unless it was a file calibrated for that specific mic. Now it seems that your opinion on that has changed. If it hasn't then you wouldn't have posted the new mic file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Do you even read my posts? Of course I do "feel that each mic should be calibrated individually". I never stated anything else. I'm just offering a better mic calibration file for those that don't calibrate their mic for whatever reason.
Of course I read your posts. That should be pretty obvious . How do you know for fact that the mic file you posted is better than others?

Bill

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post #2897 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
The contradiction is that you stated earlier that Socketman's file that he posted was only valid for his mic. Now you are posting a file with a combination of multiple EMM cal files for XMC-1 owners to try. That's the contradiction IMO. I appreciate your efforts of posting this new mic file and I'll try it in the near future. The issue that I have is that you posted earlier that it wasn't correct to use a mic file unless it was a file calibrated for that specific mic. Now it seems that your opinion on that has changed. If it hasn't then you wouldn't have posted the new mic file.

Bill
Again, no, my opinion hasn't changed. By the way, this is not an opinion or a belief. A individually calibrated mic is of course more correct than an average. Just like a chair made for an average person will most likely not fit every person but it's much closer to the "chair" Emotiva ships.
You will never know by how much the average calibration file differs from your specific mic, unless you get it calibrated.

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post #2898 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Of course I read your posts. That should be pretty obvious . How do you know for fact that the mic file you posted is better than others?

Bill
Well, if you would have read my posts then you would have seen the various calibration curves which show beyond doubt, opinion or belief that the Emotiva supplied calibration files aren't accurate.

Markus

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post #2899 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 08:02 AM
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Again, no, my opinion hasn't changed. By the way, this is not an opinion or a belief. A individually calibrated mic is of course more correct than an average. Just like a chair made for an average person will most likely not fit every person but it's much closer to the "chair" Emotiva ships.
You will never know by how much the average calibration file differs from your specific mic, unless you get it calibrated.
Cool! Thanks .

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Well, if you would have read my posts then you would have seen the various calibration curves which show beyond doubt, opinion or belief that the Emotiva supplied calibration files aren't accurate.
Well if you read my posts I never made any reference to the provided Emotiva calibration files . I was referring to Socektman's and any other mic files posted from individually calibrated mics.

Bill

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post #2900 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I was referring to Socektman's and any other mic files posted from individually calibrated mics.

Bill
On average my average is a better fit. Statistics.

Markus

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post #2901 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 09:18 AM
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There seems to be a misunderstanding in what these calibration files do. The purpose of the calibration files is to make the measured frequency response of the microphones as flat as they need to be in order to become the precision instruments that they are supposed to be. The calibration files merely correct production tolerances of individual microphones. Unfortunately it is not possible to make the whole production line to record 100% identical. There are variances. The calibration files are a means of correcting those individual deficiencies resulting from the production. If the mic with the serial number #0001337 is recording 3 dB too less at 80 Hz, then we simply tell the calibration file to add 3 extra dB at 80 Hz. That's more economical than putting the mic in the bin. A software that makes use of the calibration file will then simply add 3 dB to the 80 Hz measurement sample and the 3 dB deficiency of the hardware is cured. The measurement is exactly +-0 dB which is what we expect from an exact measurement microphone.

Now, it should be very clear that
  • it is best to have a mic to use its very own calibration file. It's unlikely that mic #0001338 has the same 3 dB dip at 80Hz.
  • the selection of the calibration file should not be related to anything other than the microphone. It should have absolutely nothing to do with your room or if you like the result.
  • the fact that Emotiva misuses the calibration file to produce a house curve is a terrible mistake.
  • the calibration file that we get from Emotiva is at best an averaged file, too. They do not provide individually calibrated mics.
  • depending on the variance of the production tolerances a correction file averaging many individual calibrations can be more accurate than a randomly selected calibration file.
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post #2902 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buletti View Post
  • it is best to have a mic to use its very own calibration file. It's unlikely that mic #0001338 has the same 3 dB dip at 80Hz.
  • the selection of the calibration file should not be related to anything other than the microphone. It should have absolutely nothing to do with your room or if you like the result.
  • the fact that Emotiva misuses the calibration file to produce a house curve is a terrible mistake.
  • the calibration file that we get from Emotiva is at best an averaged file, too. They do not provide individually calibrated mics.
  • depending on the variance of the production tolerances a correction file averaging many individual calibrations can be more accurate than a randomly selected calibration file.

I agree on all points.
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post #2903 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 10:19 AM
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Finally did a first run on Dirac last night. Holy crap! It's an absolute game changer! Never heard my system sounds like this before. The surrounds and all of the ambient noises in movies were so detailed. Now as pleased as I am with the first run, I still have some work to do but I am convinced of Dirac's merits at this point. Especially over Audyssey. I also really appreciated the flexibility of the software as compared to Audyssey's "take it or start all over again" approach.

For calibration I used my Cross-Spectrum calibrated UMIK-1, and my question to others is, which 90 degree cal file did you use? I used the 'narrow_band_response_90_degree.frd' but I also have 'one_third_octave_band_response_90_degree.frd' and I was wondering if I chose the right one and what the difference between the two are for the layman?
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post #2904 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 10:22 AM
 
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narrow_band_response_90_degree.frd'
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post #2905 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 10:41 AM
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narrow_band_response_90_degree.frd'
Good, that means I got it right! Thank you!
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post #2906 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 11:13 AM
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On average my average is a better fit. Statistics.
Thanks for posting it Markus. I will give it a try hopefully this weekend.

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post #2907 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 11:58 AM
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The third-octave simply averages over a wider frequency response (1/3 of an octave based on the name). May be better if you are using it to get an idea of the overall response and relative SPL levels. For measurements you want as much frequency resolution as possible, thus the narrow-band file. I glanced at the curves but have not really looked at mine yet to see how narrow "narrow-band" is. Most of my previous measurements are 1/12-octave; enough to smooth some of the little perturbations we can't likely hear anyway, and yet resolve to one note of a musical scale, appealing to the musician in me. Of course, if I am more than 10 or 20 cents (1/10 ~ 2/10 of the note's frequency) off pitch when I play, I will hear about it!
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post #2908 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buletti View Post
There seems to be a misunderstanding in what these calibration files do. The purpose of the calibration files is to make the measured frequency response of the microphones as flat as they need to be in order to become the precision instruments that they are supposed to be. The calibration files merely correct production tolerances of individual microphones. Unfortunately it is not possible to make the whole production line to record 100% identical. There are variances. The calibration files are a means of correcting those individual deficiencies resulting from the production. If the mic with the serial number #0001337 is recording 3 dB too less at 80 Hz, then we simply tell the calibration file to add 3 extra dB at 80 Hz. That's more economical than putting the mic in the bin. A software that makes use of the calibration file will then simply add 3 dB to the 80 Hz measurement sample and the 3 dB deficiency of the hardware is cured. The measurement is exactly +-0 dB which is what we expect from an exact measurement microphone.

Now, it should be very clear that
  • it is best to have a mic to use its very own calibration file. It's unlikely that mic #0001338 has the same 3 dB dip at 80Hz.
  • the selection of the calibration file should not be related to anything other than the microphone. It should have absolutely nothing to do with your room or if you like the result.
  • the fact that Emotiva misuses the calibration file to produce a house curve is a terrible mistake.
  • the calibration file that we get from Emotiva is at best an averaged file, too. They do not provide individually calibrated mics.
  • depending on the variance of the production tolerances a correction file averaging many individual calibrations can be more accurate than a randomly selected calibration file.
Thank you for posting this, very helpful .

Bill

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post #2909 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
On average my average is a better fit. Statistics.
So does the calibration file represent the response of the mic or the amount of correction required at any specific frequency with that mic?
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post #2910 of 7551 Old 05-29-2015, 12:34 PM
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It's the correction needed to make the mic measure flat over the whole spectrum. If you open the file - it's just a text file afterall - you will see 2 columns. The first is the frequency in Hz and the second is the deviation from being flat in dB.
Code:
...
87.000000 -0.392697 
90.000000 -0.267694 
93.000000 -0.123265 
96.000000  0.037483 
100.000000 0.256436 
103.000000 0.417382 
106.000000 0.552738 
110.000000 0.717426 
...

Last edited by buletti; 05-29-2015 at 12:42 PM. Reason: correction replaced by deviation
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