@TJMotter thanks for the PM. It says I have only 7 posts and can't PM. I thought I had way more posts over the years than that! Perhaps there's been a counter reset although admittedly I've had very few posts lately. Anyways I've read some more of the thread again and some things have sunk in better. I have 17386h and after 30m of idle with the cover off the temp reads 76F. I don't see any glaringly blown or bulging caps or loose solder balls. Attached in subsequent posts are some lousy pics that probably won't help things except to pad my post count. Sorry all, I'll spoiler them. So maybe it's not worth trying to fix? If it might be though, I'm willing to give it a shot or offer my unit for salvage of other parts (even just the serial number label for the discount).

Wow the "DRAG FILES HERE" inserts the image as a data: url with no size limit!!?! (at least during "preview post") Here's my HDMI capacitors as a managed attachment then inlined in case you all are bored and want to look at HT pr0n.

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TI DSP chips:

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TI closeup 1:

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TI chip 2:

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Unfortunately, the only way to see if the caps are bad is to remove them. When they go bad they leak out of the bottom and leave residue on the board,

Wrong chip ;-). The one that goes bad is the BGA (the one with no pins) that sits closer to the back of the board close to the Ethernet port. Your board has 3 DSP chips. Onkyo does this on systems with the more advanced sound correction to give them enough processing power.


In looking at the schematics more closely, this is the same board that is used in the NR3008. The NR3008 board has the same part number as the NR3007 but there are some minor differences. First, the NR3008 uses the D830K013BZKB3 that is prone to wear out. In my experience, these chips will last about 17,000-18,000 hours so it looks like this is your culprit. The other difference is that Onkyo moved the 3.3V voltage rail used by the HDMI chips from being supplied by the HDMI board to getting its signal from the CPU board (not a big deal but it does place less stress on those power capacitors).


On the plus side, I still have a couple of these DSP's lying around. I bought a number of brand new ones from TI's EOL distributor before they ran out. I also have a "semi-working" NR3008 board. I say "semi-working" because the audio works great (I installed a new DSP chip" but the main video upscaling processor has failed and these are impossible to get. The end result is that video works out of the Sub port and will eventually (after a minute or so) turn on with the Main port but the video upscaling and on-screen display won't work.


PM sent with my email address.


Todd

Yep, I found the D830K013BZKB3 (picture attached). And there is a power cable from the board below, labelled "TO HDMI" there, although the pins say +12V.

I sent you an email, although with this post I may be able to PM so I'll try that too.

Thanks,
John

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Todd, I send a PM. My TX-NR5008 unit uses the same D830K013BZKB3 chip and the newer replacement is the D version D830K013DZKB3. Are you aware if the D830K013DZKB4 chip will work in my unit? I can't find data but this chip just has a faster clock capability correct?


Thanks

Walt

Only an Onkyo authorized service center can make this work. Changing the clock speed of the DSP requires modifications to the Main CPU firmware and the DSP firmware and Onkyo has released this firmware only to authorized service centers.


Sorry,
Todd

Hi TJMotter...I have Onkyo TX-NR1008 with No Audio issue. Now I found HDMI Board with Q3001 IC with D830K013DZKB4. So is it ok? And one more question that is it possible to install Dolby Atmos Firmware of Onkyo TX-NR838/1010 on TX-NR1008?

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Hi!


is just replacing a D830K013BZKB4 with a new "D" version D830K013DZKB4 enough to repair a "no sound/USB/network" hdmi board and make an onkyo work again? will the new chip be correctly recognized and boot at first start ? (assuming this chip is the unique culprit)


thanks!
Stephan

So last night my "ancient" 808 stopped processing the center channel from a Dolby Digital signal.

I was able to let it limp along setting it to all "All channels" (or whatever the vernacular is)

It's been repaired twice. Once under warranty and the second time the extended warranty program.

I was hoping to make it another year for a replacement but it looks like it is on its last legs again.

Any suggestions for replacements? Basically running fronts and center with a subwoofer at this point.

On the first question, you will likely have problems trying to get this board to work. The NR1008 originally shipped with a 300Mhz DSP. The Onkyo repair upgrades this to a 400Mhz DSP. The issue you will face is that the solution Onkyo developed to make this work changes both the DSP Firmware AND the MAIN CPU Firmware. Any board you buy with the 400Mhz (stamped "NEW") DSP chip will have the correct DSP firmware but the Main CPU firmware is located on a different board so you would need to upgrade that firmware as well. From what I have been able to determine, Onkyo will only make this firmware upgrade available to Authorized Service Depots. If the person who is selling the HDMI board would also offer you the MAIN CPU board, you could make this work.



On your second question (Atmos), this would be VERY difficult, maybe impossible. The electronic circuitry is pretty much the same but the DSP software is completely different. An Onkyo tech explained to me that the reason they moved to their own sound modelling software (and away from Audyssey) was that they needed a completely new algorithm to deal with Atmos. To do this they "invented" AccueEQ and designed it to to be an "object based sound modelling solution" (according to the tech). To make this work someone would essentially have to reverse engineer (probably illegal) an ATMOS based Onkyo and then try to rebuild the code base on your system. Given the tight integration between the Main CPU, the DSP and the Video subsystems I suspect that an effort like this would be rife with bugs.


HTH
Todd

Yes. All the software for the DSP system is located on a separate chip and the initialization routines transmitted from the MAIN CPU are the same so once the chip is replaced, it simply starts working.


The issue you are going to have is to find one of these chips. TI refuses to sell them and in my experience most of the stuff advertised on eBay and Alibaba are simply a "B Rev" chip that has been re-balled and rebranded. The only reliable source I have found for these chips is to buy a used Onkyo board off eBay (NR626, 727, 828, 646, 747 for example), remove the DSP, reball it myself and then reinstall it on the affected unit.



Interestingly, the NR636, 737, 838 boards use a 500Mhz version of this DSP which can also work. From what I have been able to determine, the 500Mhz part uses a 24Mhz clock while the 400Mhz part uses a 20Mhz clock. When you install a 500Mhz part in a system with a 20Mhz clock, it simply runs at 400Mhz. I installed one of these in an NR616 as a test and it has been working flawlessly for a couple of months now.


HTH
Todd

Hi Todd!


thank you for this useful piece of information. how to determine if a "D" chip is not a "B" rebranded one? is the chip internal ID available in a service menu?
by the way, how can I view how many hours of service my TX-NR5009 receiver has? (holding display/on/standby) doesn't work on this model...


thanks
Stephan

Unfortunately I know of no way to confirm if the chip is a true "D rev". Some of the "tricks" I have found after buying a number of chips from various sources are:


1) using jewelers glasses, I visually inspect the top and bottom of the chip
- Onkyo often places an indelible ink spot on the chip. It can be silver, blue or white but it is really hard to get off so I look for traces of it and often find spots the reseller couldn't remove
2) I have received DSP chips with the wrong size of solder ball. This is obvious if you have a good one to compare it to but may be hard if you don't have experience


I was fortunate to have purchased a number of 300Mhz chips from an authorized TI dealer so I had a good baseline to start with. I have used almost all of those chips at this point but the tops were absolutely clean, the logo was clear and the solderballs were all 0.60mm


Of the chips I have bought from eBay and AliExpress some work and some don't. Obviously, that is easy to spot once you install them. The issue for me is that I used a couple of these to rebuild receivers that I gave to my family. Every one of those has failed. Some failed after 6 months and one lasted over a year but all were used pretty lightly so the only ones I trust now are those I personally remove from an Onkyo board. There are a couple of vendors on eBay who sell broken boards for $15.00 + $4.00 shipping which is actually cheaper than what I paid for the real chips (about $24.00) as well as what I see for pricing on the Chinese reworked ones (generally about $30).



Note that some of the chips branded as "D Rev" on eBay are new but they have an "X" as the first number (XD830K013DZKB4). TI wouldn't tell me what the difference with these chips was but I bought 4 and they don't work properly. Normal surround sound works, USB works and Network works but they won't play any streaming data (like a MP3 file off USB or any Internet Radio channels on the Network). After finding this I stopped trying them so other issues may be present as well.


With respect to the "DISPLAY / ON STANDBY" approach, some Onkyo models will only go into Engineering mode if the volume is set to a specific value. This value seems to differ between models but if you perform a full reset first (Press and hold "VCR/DVR" and then touch the "ON/STANDBY" button - the display should say "CLEAR" and then the unit will shut off), it will set the volume to the correct value. You might want to try that first.


After you perform a reset the menu's may appear. If it helps, I created a video showing how this works to find the hours of use:

Thanks Todd!


I could then go to the service menu and see my amp is 922 hours old. And I read here the DTS chip "B" version would last 17000 hours, so my no sound problem might be solved with a reflow. Therefore, I tried this twice with hot air 230 celsius and the sound was just back for one week. Do you think a complete professionnal reflow would last longer? assuming my DSP chip is good...

Yes, a reflow is likely all that you need. This link explains the process pretty well.


http://repairalmostanything.com/thre...epair-tutorial


The link below explains how I do these repairs: http://repairalmostanything.com/thre...-onkyo-pioneer


Note that I typically set my hot air wand for 435 degrees Celsius and at this heat, the chip typically requires 1 min 30 seconds to remove. This level of heat/time falls within the TI guidelines for BGA removal/reflow. A reflow requires the same levels of heat/time but simply skips the removal step.


Last, the solder ball that most often breaks free in my experience is B1. B1 supplies the input voltage to the chip (1.2v) so if it breaks free, the chip won't boot. B1 designates the second solderball on the first row. If you look at the chip, the bottom left corner is A1 (which sits next to B1) so make sure that you get a good application of heat and "NO CLEAN flux" to this area.


HTH
Todd

Thanks TJMotter for your complete reply. So as u said If I will buy Only New HDMI Board then its not enough to solve "No Audio/Sound Issues" of Onkyo TX-NR1008, I have to buy Microprocessor Board also? The latest firmware which available on Onkyo Site won't solve the issue?
For second thought I am just curious that If Onkyo TX-NR1008 and TX-NR1010 both works on almost same kind of hardware with 32bit DSP Processor then 1008 should receiver Atmos Firmware, isn't it?

Correct. I will add that I have tried to run a repaired HDMI board in an NR3007 (physically the same board as the NR3008 but configured differently) where the MAIN FW was old. It did work sometimes but I had to turn the unit on/off multiple times to get the system to start. Even when it did work, it would often get confused and shut down the DSP. There appears to be some kind of timing issue on communications between the DSP chip and the MAIN CPU when a 400Mhz CPU is used. Onkyo seems to have addressed this by updating the firmware on the MAIN CPU so that both subsystems are in sync. You are also correct that the firmware on the Onkyo Website does not solve this issue. If you look earlier in this thread you will see some posts by Al Sherwood talking about his NR3007 firmware levels. Al has one of these repaired boards with the 400MHz chip and to make this work properly, Onkyo upgraded his MAIN CPU FW to 1.32. The most current firmware on the web is only 1.29. I tried to contact Onkyo Support and they refused to provide the "fixed" software stating that it was available only to an Authorized Repair Depot.

With respect to Atmos support, as I noted, it may be possible but it would likely be very difficult. These systems have multiple DSP chips and they all communicate with each other so it isn't as simple as changing the software for one of the DSP's. I suspect that to get ATMOS support you would need the correct DSP firmware (for all DSP's), I suspect that the MAIN FW is different (because this chip drives the "SETUP" function for the microphone). Also, the On Screen Display software would have to be different because AccuEQ setup differs from Audyssey setup. The On Screen Display software resides on the video subsystem which means the software for the VMPU and the VSP would likely have to change. I suspect an Onkyo design engineer could make this work but it would be VERY difficult for anyone else to reverse engineer all of these systems to upgrade your receiver.

Thanks Todd!


I noticed that this DSP bga doesn't initialize correctly on my amp after a cold start. But, if I let the amp warm for 15 min, I can then make the DSP boot correctly by switching the amp successively off and on. Does this confirm that I only have a solder break issue with a full functionnal DSP chip?
thanks !
regards

It doesn't confirm that it is a break but it is a strong indicator. Heat causes expansion and cold causes contraction. There are 256 solder balls on the bottom of that chip and what happens in many cases is that the board starts to flex a bit when heat is generated below it. In situations like this I typically find that ball B1 isn't making good contact but I have seen others on the exterior sides break free as well. My current theory is that since B1 is the main power input to the chip, this connection tends to run a little hotter than the rest making it a candidate for breaking loose. Since we are talking about a small amount of flex, all it takes to get the DSP to restart is for the board to come up to temperature which causes it to flex and make contact with the solder-ball. At this point, your MAIN CPU has "timed out" trying to communicate to the DSP which is why you have to power cycle the system to get the two back in sync.

The real "root-cause" issue here (IMHO) is that TI uses RoHS solder balls that are composed primarily of silver which tends to break before it flexes so when the board contracts, the connection on the DSP side of the chip can more easily break free. The best solution I have found is to remove the chip and re-ball it with lead based solder which tends to "bend before it breaks". This isn't too hard if you have the right "jig" but understand that the solder-balls are only 0.60mm in diameter so placing them without a jig can take many hours making this a big challenge for the average person.

My process is to first clean the old solder off the chip (and the board of course), clean everything with isopropyl alcohol to remove any flux residue and then place the chip in my jig. Next I apply a VERY THIN layer of flux to the bottom of the BGA. Too much flux and it "pools" causing all the solder-balls to melt together. Next, I apply a BGA template (aluminum plate with all the holes cut out for the solder-balls) and pour some solder-balls into the template until I fill all the holes (which is a pain in itself). Once I have 1 ball per hole, I lift the top plate off and carefully lift the chip out of the jig so that I can place it on a thick ceramic tile I use to protect my bench from the heat. Invariably, 3-4 solder balls stick to the aluminum plate and 20-30 other shift off the pads on the BGA so I spend the next 45 minutes crouched over the chip with jewelers glass on and gently nudge each pin back onto its pad with the end of a pin. I then apply a tiny bit of flux to the pin so that it will stick to the solder-balls that came off when I lifted the template and try to position them into the holes that I missed. Once everything is lined up, I apply 380 degrees celsius of heat using my heat wand. In this step I need to keep the air pressure down really low or risk blowing the solder-balls off their pads but with the right heat and the right air flow, the solder-balls will melt onto their respective pads perfectly.


The aim of a reflow is to get the solder-balls to go molten and re-attach but it doesn't address the root cause (board flex) so it is possible that it can happen again. The flux is a cleaning agent with a mild acid in it that cleans the surfaces to facilitate this re connection. BTW, this is why you must use "no clean" flux. It is very difficult to clean the excess flux from under a BGA. "No-clean flux" is too mild to damage the board so it doesn't hurt anything if it stays in place but if you leave a traditional flux on the board, the acid will eventually damage all of the traces and destroy the board.


HTH
Todd

Hi Tood

Regarding my last post in the thread on repairalmostanything can I ask you, how did you get the "printenv" and other commands to work? I can login to shell as root, but none of the those commands work for me.

Thanks in advance

Kamil

I answered on the other forum

Thank you TJ for continually sharing fully all that you know about the issue.

Regarding boards that have been repaired by Onkyo, do you find that a fan or a heatsink on the DSP chip help prevent the board flex issue?

To be completely transparent, I have tried neither but since the issue seems to be caused by board flex, I don't expect that a heat-sink would help much. A heat sink will simply transfer heat generated by the chip away from the device but since the issue seems to be caused by heat being generated beneath the board causing the board itself to flex dissipating heat from the chip isn't really the issue. A fan that blows continuously would likely be a good solution to move that heat out.


HTH
Todd

Are you saying that the source of the extra heat is from components underneath the DSP board?

If that is true then a heatsink could actually make the problem worse because it would increase the temperature difference between the chip and the PCB

Kind of late to this thread, got an TX-Nr-807 with issues, missed the cut off for repair, only option for me is $114 rebate, bah. Anyway I have the no sound issue, not a problem with HDMI, and find it takes an hour for things to heat up enough to work. I' ve been generally leaving the receiver on to solve this. Made the mistake of not jumping on the deal last weekend for the 686 for $299, only got a few weeks to use the rebate, so I'm looking for a good deal, not finding any.

I've been on the lookout for a replacement board, have not found one. Any sources?

I've got the TX-NR929. I purchased it several years back (pre-owned, on OneCall or was it Accessories4Less) when the model was about 2 years old.


It has been fairly reliable except for two or three issues that might, or might not, be related to the HDMI board.


Since there's some people contributing on this thread with specific technical expertise on these Onkyo issues, I figured I would ask for insight.



The first problem is that the system does something completely crazy, like jump to full volume instantaneously and lock up, unresponsive to the remote and requiring a power cycle with the front panel power button (fortunately that full volume lock up only happened once during a level adjustment in the setup menu). The symptom varies but it's like the unit goes brain dead and needs to be power cycled to recover. Fortunately this failure mode is rare. I only remember two or three instances and I can't remember the symptom of the first two, but I do remember that they were surprisingly odd.



There's another failure mode that seems maybe related. Sometimes the receiver forgets how to operate some of the sound modes, for example the center speaker goes off and never recovers after having been set to 'none' in the crossover and then back on during testing and calibration. Sometimes the center speaker still works after such adjustment, but the tone controls stop working in some of the sound modes, e.g. only functional in stereo. Switching off the power while in setup mode menu is likely to cause sound modes to get confused also.



This failure mode of lost functionality in the sound modes requires a system reset to get it working again. Fortunately, I don't use Audyssey so there's no need for a full recalibration, I just do the quick setup and enter the crossover/graphic EQ/level/distance settings etc. from my last manual calibration.



The second problem is that, every couple of hours or so, the sound and/or video winks off for a couple of seconds, then resumes. Depending on the connected components, the frequency of these intermittent problems can vary. It seems worst when the computer with a budget NVidia graphics card is connected (it's HDMI) and it's also worse when the old Samsung TV is connected (vs. the BenQ pj). I haven't bothered keeping track of which inputs/components have issues but it does seem that it's more than just the PC input.



I've noticed some sensitivity to power fluctuations with this intermittent loss of sound and/or video, but it's not severe. There has to be visible dimming of lights etc. to trigger it and it doesn't always cause issues.



The third problem is that the digital crossover function just doesn't seem to ever have been implemented with anything approaching care for the result. I'm not using it anyway but it seemed odd to include it just to make it fry someone's tweeters with bass and piss them off.




After owning it for a couple of years, I considered returning the unit for repair under the recall, but I figured that with all the horror stories of service centers not repairing anything and sending back the same bugs six months later, I'd just keep the unit until it fries and replace it with an Atmos capable receiver.


Of these problems I mentioned, are any of them known issues with this receiver's HDMI recall? I didn't connect them to the recall when reading up on this years ago but it seems the state of knowledge changed significantly since then and there may be more issues than I was familiar with.



Is there a service mode I can use to get the hours on the receiver? Does it have the DSP that fails after x number of hours? How can I tell if it's had any repairs on failed HDMI with maybe a different processor speed while out for resale? Does the service menu list firmware revisions?



Even though the behavior of this rig is somewhat crazy now and then, it has been very stable in its behavior. It's not getting any worse that I can tell, thankfully, so I've left it as-is and just kept moving forward with the various upgrades to other components.