The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 166 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4951 of 6354 Old 10-03-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Thinking some more about this: It's not just the Auro users that find Surround Back channels important. I know of at least 1 re-recording engineer on this forum (@FilmMixer;) who expressed his dissatisfaction with Auro3D being based upon a 5.1 down-mix. I believe that for AuroTechnologies to adequately solve this problem they will have to go back to their Octopus codec. According to their white paper (https://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/u...7-20111117.pdf) it should be possible to use a 7.1 legacy track for carrying the Auro3D channels:



Let's see what they come up with...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
There was an Auro 13.1 title released over a year ago:

Correct, several of the Auro discs i have show 13.1 on in signal when i press info. So it is already out there. Trinnov and Datasat do Auro 13.1, right?

It’s the pesky 12 channel DSP limit again.

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post #4952 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 01:09 AM
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My setup is a Denon AVR6300 with 7.0.4 for Atmos and DTS:X.

The mains are large full range speakers I purchased in 1980 and do an adequate job at low range with no need for subs.

The .4 in my setup is four Martin Logan Atmos enabled speakers.

Would it be worthwhile my trying out my setup with Auro (bearing in mind that with my AVR it's a paid for upgrade).

Currently my Atmos speakers are on the fronts and surround backs. Would I need to move the pair on the surround backs to the side surrounds for Auro?

Cheers

Last edited by blairy; 10-04-2017 at 01:33 AM.
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post #4953 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 01:41 AM
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Hello Blairy! Sorry, but I must advice you can't use reflections for the 4 main height configuration in Auro3D. What CBdiX is trying to setup with reflective speakers is only for the Center Top single channel.
Regards
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post #4954 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blairy View Post
My setup is a Denon AVR6300 with 7.0.4 for Atmos and DTS:X.

The mains are large full range speakers I purchased in 1980 and do an adequate job at low range with no need for subs.

The .4 in my setup is four Martin Logan Atmos enabled speakers.

Would it be worthwhile my trying out my setup with Auro (bearing in mind that with my AVR it's a paid for upgrade).

Currently my Atmos speakers are on the fronts and surround backs. Would I need to move the pair on the surround backs to the side surrounds for Auro?

Cheers

Hi, what vn800art is saying is correct that Auro3D is not using Dolby Enabled speakers.
But.........
Auro did test DE speakers for Height use with A3D and this worked fine.
You do get a more diffuse sound effect then with Direct Fire speakers, but thats the nature of DE speakers in general.

As you do not have Direct Fire speakers you have only one way to use your DE speakers in Dolby, DTS and Auro.
And thats is to make a Audyssey run with your DE speakers, but use them as Front Height and Rear Height !
(keep the DE speaker on the Front and Surround speakers)
I did test DE setup as FH and RH and this works fine, for me no differents in sound compared to a "real" DE run.
The Dolby Enabled trick is done for the biggest part in the speaker, not the receiver !
See pics of the Audyssey curve, same speakers, same spot as DE setup and FH setup, small differents in the curves is small differents in mic position during the setups.
So a DE speaker will still act as a DE speaker even you make a FH/RH setup, don't worry

No need to move the DE speakers from SB to SS if your happy with then on the SB speakers.

Your benefit when you use Auro compared to Dolby and DTS, is that Auro (2D and 3D) is far better to listen to for music, Auro makes more use of your Front speakers and less the Center.
This more use of the Fronts is only applied in Stereo sources !

Also i find Auro-Matic is doing a better job in Immersive effects then even Dolby Atmos or DTSX !!
You have full manual control how much height effects are used with A-M, a very big + .

So even without the use of VOG, Auro can do a better/nicer job then the other two and i find the spend 145 Euro a good thing..........


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post #4955 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
There was an Auro 13.1 title released over a year ago:
Still, before and after this release @FilmMixer posted that Auro3D is not capable of doing 7.1....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I lament the lack of 7.1 in Auro.. I do think that is a big detriment..
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Auro's biggest issue for me as a mixer is there is no front to back.... up is great, but things can't travel as well in the format.... no way I will ever be able to give up 7.1 over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
No 7.1? No thanks... I would fight that fight all day lone...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
For me, if I were asked, I would steer someone towards Atmos... it's 7.1 capable (unlike Auro,)

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post #4956 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Correct, several of the Auro discs i have show 13.1 on in signal when i press info. So it is already out there.
Can you (with an Auro3D enabled consumer AVR/processor) use a 7.1+4 heights lay-out with such Auro 13.1 tracks?

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post #4957 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Still, before and after this release @FilmMixer posted that Auro3D is not capable doing 7.1....

Most European HT's do not have the space for Surround Back.
And even with the use of SB i see a lot of pictures where the MLP is UNDER the SB speakers
So a lot setups with SB are not correct or useless to use it like its setup.


But still find it a strange of Auro to use 5.1 as starting point, and not 7.1
Its easier to say i don't need 7.1 and use 5.1, then want 7.1 where there are no SB channels to use.
Hope Auro will fix this soon, now with the new AV receivers from D&M with Auro build in.
Most 7.1 users will not even start to use Auro3D without SB even it will outperform Atmos or DTSX !
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post #4958 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Can you (with an Auro3D enabled consumer AVR/processor) use a 7.1+4 heights lay-out with such Auro 13.1 tracks?
Sorry for the highjack.....
I think yes, with a 9.1 (+ external amp) or 11.1 D&M receiver.
So Auro needs to do a update so the used SB channels in Auro 2D can be used in 3D.
Or is this to "simple" thinking ?
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post #4959 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Most European HT's do not have the space for Surround Back.
And even with the use of SB i see a lot of pictures where the MLP is UNDER the SB speakers
So a lot setups with SB are not correct or useless to use it like its setup.
Regardless, the issue at hand here is Auro3D's (or the Octopus codec's) proclaimed inability to work from a 7.1 base, and the effect this may have on it's popularity among re-recoding engineers, and possibly studios. If they don't like it because of this, lesser Auro3D content will be available to the audience, including people without Surround Backs.

Quote:
But still find it a strange of Auro to use 5.1 as starting point, and not 7.1
I am not sure what you mean by 'starting point'. But the fact that 13.1 Auro3D mixes do exist, proves that a 7.1 legacy track can also be used as carrier for the Auro3D channels (INCLUDING surround backs).

Quote:
Its easier to say i don't need 7.1 and use 5.1, then want 7.1 where there are no SB channels to use.
No argument there... LOL

Quote:
Hope Auro will fix this soon, now with the new AV receivers from D&M with Auro build in.
I am still looking for a clue what exactly it is that needs to be fixed...

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post #4960 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
I think yes, with a 9.1 (+ external amp) or 11.1 D&M receiver.
All OK then.

Quote:
So Auro needs to do a update so the used SB channels in Auro 2D can be used in 3D.
So not OK?

Quote:
Or is this to "simple" thinking ?
Or too complicated (at least for me)...

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post #4961 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Can you (with an Auro3D enabled consumer AVR/processor) use a 7.1+4 heights lay-out with such Auro 13.1 tracks?
No!

(Of course the AVR speaker setup can be 7.1.4, but it leaves SB’s silent in Auro)

As we know, the next step for Auro from the minimun 9.1 is 10, i.e. Top Surround, NOT surround backs. And more than than violates the 11.1 channel limit.

The steps are 9.1(5.1.4), 10.1(5.1.5 with TS), 11.1(5.1.6 with TS+CH), and THEN comes 13.1, or 7.1.6. TS+CH+SB.

So no, with these 13.1 tracks it plays the «normal»max setup of 10.1. (But i suspect the Trinnovs and Datasats can play the full 13.1?)

However, in a native Auro 13.1 track, if i disable surround heights, i gain the surround backs. Or 7.1.2.

In a Auro opimized setup, the side surrounds are placed @110 or 120 degress, lessening the need for SB’s, but in these hybrid setup with Atmos/DTS:X that use SB’s, the side surrounds are placed @90degrees, leaving more of a hole in the rear.
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post #4962 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
No!

(Of course the AVR speaker setup can be 7.1.4, but it leaves SB’s silent in Auro)

As we know, the next step for Auro from the minimun 9.1 is 10, i.e. Top Surround, NOT surround backs. And more than than violates the 11.1 channel limit.

The steps are 9.1(5.1.4), 10.1(5.1.5 with TS), 11.1(5.1.6 with TS+CH), and THEN comes 13.1, or 7.1.6. TS+CH+SB.
Same with AuroMatic?

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post #4963 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Same with AuroMatic?
Yes. But Auromatic doesn’t upmix native Auro, so in a native 11.1 track (no SB’s), deactivating SH does NOT gain SB.
And a native 9.1 track only ever plays 9.1.

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post #4964 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes. But Auromatic doesn’t upmix native Auro, so in a native 11.1 track (no SB’s), deactivating SH does NOT gain SB.
And a native 9.1 track only ever plays 9.1.
The reason I asked is that at this moment I don't have a 13.1 Auro3D track to test it on the Altitude, but what I CAN do is take a stereo track and apply AuroMatic to it using a 7.1+ 4 heights config....

I did just now, and it turns out that all channels are being fed, including the Rear Surrounds (so without CH nor VOG) and these appear NOT to be just copies of the Side Surrounds.

Can we (already) conclude that the absence of Rear Surrounds might be a AVR/processor implementation issue, and NOT an Auro3D limitation?

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post #4965 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The reason I asked is that at this moment I don't have a 13.1 Auro3D track to test it on the Altitude, but what I CAN do is take a stereo track and apply AuroMatic to it using a 7.1+ 4 heights config....
Don’t you have a Auro demo disc? They have 13.1 tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I did just now, and it turns out that all channels are being fed, including the Rear Surrounds (so without CH nor VOG) and these appear NOT to be just copies of the Side Surrounds.
Ok, as i expected, the Trinnovs aren’t limited in any way in setups.


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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Can we (already) conclude that the absence of Rear Surrounds might be a AVR/processor implementation issue, and NOT an Auro3D limitation?
Yes, this was established in december -14 when Auro was released to D&M. Pic (from dec. -14) from the demo disc.



And this just now from the 13.1 track on Johnny Mnemonic disc.



And with the SH deactivated gains SB.

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post #4966 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Don’t you have a Auro demo disc? They have 13.1 tracks.
No.
Yes, time I'd ask, for both of them....

Quote:
Ok, as i expected, the Trinnovs aren’t limited in any way in setups.
So IMO this case on 'silent Rear Surround' is closed and its solution lies with:
1. FilmMixer and his colleagues (probably meaning the Producers/Studios they work for): just start using a 7.1 base when mixing in Auro3D
2. AVR/processor manufacturers: just get your act together if you are serious with providing Auro3D to your customers.
3. AuroTechnologies? Not sure what to expect from them on this point as they seem to have their base covered...

Well, time for @FilmMixer to set us all straight (or not)...
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post #4967 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
No.
Yes, time I'd ask, for both of them....



So IMO this case on 'silent Rear Surround' is closed and its solution lies with:
1. FilmMixer and his colleagues (probably meaning the Producers/Studio they work for): just start using a 7.1 base when mixing in Auro3D
2. AVR/processor manufacturers: just get your act together if you are serious with providing Auro3D to your customers.
3. AuroTechnologies? Not sure what to expect from them on this point as they seem to have their base covered...

Well, time for @FilmMixer to set us all straight (or not)...
Correct. 13.1 exists both from Auro and is released on discs already. It’s up to the AVR mfr.


As i said, the pesky 11.1 DSP limit.
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post #4968 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
As i said, the pesky 11.1 DSP limit.
Still, that limit should not prevent 13.1 Auro3D and Auromatic to work properly on a 7.1+4heights config on the current 11.1 capable AVRs/processors...
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post #4969 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Still, before and after this release @FilmMixer posted that Auro3D is not capable of doing 7.1....
Maybe he meant the theatrical version at the time, since that's the version he would use most of the time.

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post #4970 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Still, that limit should not prevent 13.1 Auro3D and Auromatic to work properly on a 7.1+4heights config on the current 11.1 capable AVRs/processors...
As long as Auro(or perhaps D&M) prioritize Top Surround over surround backs, it will.

But yes, the more normal 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X setup with 7 base level and 4 heights would be better for those with Atmos /DTS:X/Auro setups.

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post #4971 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
As long as Auro(or perhaps D&M) prioritize Top Surround over surround backs, it will.
My bet is D&M, but it may be something that has been decided in close cooperation with AuroTechnologies which would explain AuroTechnologies' apparent commitment to find and roll out a solution...

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post #4972 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Maybe he meant the theatrical version at the time, since that's the version he would use most of the time.
Yes, I suppose that could explain it.

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post #4973 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:40 AM
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Well, I would like to hope something could be done, maybe running 13.1 disabling SH and extracting them from FH, while SB are running, but ... the hope of a new D+M update of Auro3D was a bit disappointed from this question I asked to Auro 4 days ago (looking in the meanwhile for the last demo disk - they are restocking it !):
Me:
If I may, could you suggest a dual speaker set to accommodate the Vog channel (I have a spare two channels to drive the speakers), that could go well together with my new heights?

This could be very helpful.

Moreover ... any news concerning Auro3D and compatibility with 7.1 ground setup?

Thanks for Your work and congrats for Your success and worldwide interest in your Storm Audio new hardware!
And this was the reply from Auro Support Team:
As you used Klipsh speakers for the rest of the setup, we mostly recommend to use the same brand/line for all speakers. This ensures tonal consistency through the whole setup. The Klipsh range also has a lot of options regrding size and finish so it would blend in your setup aesthetically.
The Auro-3d setup that uses a 7.1 "ground layer" is the Auro 13.1 configuration. it's mostly used in bigger Home theater setups and can be used with for example the Storm Audio range, the Trinnov/mcintosh receivers, steinway lingdorf and Datasat.

Kind regards
This is the meaning, I believe: now they have the product to do them all, at a reasonable (still high, for me) price: Storm Audio. This will be the only way to go, but I don't want to lose completely hope.
Regards
Alessandro


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post #4974 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post

Quote:
The Auro-3d setup that uses a 7.1 "ground layer" is the Auro 13.1 configuration. it's mostly used in bigger Home theater setups and can be used with for example the Storm Audio range, the Trinnov/mcintosh receivers, steinway lingdorf and Datasat.
This is the meaning, I believe: now they have the product to do them all, at a reasonable (still high, for me) price: Storm Audio. This will be the only way to go, but I don't want to lose completely hope.
It seems to me they are describing the current state of affairs, without referring to their current working on solving the problem of 'silent Surround Rears' as explained in an Email to @CBdicX

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post #4975 of 6354 Old 10-04-2017, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
My bet is D&M, but it may be something that has been decided in close cooperation with AuroTechnologies which would explain AuroTechnologies' apparent commitment to find and roll out a solution...
With 13.1 coming to D&M flagships, there will hopefully be more than one way to configure 7.1.6: three pairs of heights or L/C/R heights + Surround heights + VOG.

Sanjay
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post #4976 of 6354 Old 10-05-2017, 12:39 AM
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According to the answer i received from Auro on my question about the use of Surround Back (Rear) in Auro 3D, the answer was that Auro was looking for a solution on existing AVR models (the 9 channel AVR's).
I asked specific for excisting 9 amps channels / 11 channel processing AVR's !
So if the problem is hardware, Auro would never solve the lack of SB in A3D for 9 channel AVR's that use an external amp.
11 channels would be enough to do 7.x.4, and then a 2nd ext. amp for VOG if needit.
Just like Dolby and DTS are doing now with there 7.x.4 setup.


I do not understand the lack of SB in Auro 3D with the correct amount of amps.
I find it very fustrating to see the SB not being used where i have enough amps, and the fustration is even higher when i press Auro 2D with SB use.............
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post #4977 of 6354 Old 10-05-2017, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
According to the answer i received from Auro on my question about the use of Surround Back (Rear) in Auro 3D, the answer was that Auro was looking for a solution on existing AVR models (the 9 channel AVR's).
Exactly, that is what their response suggests:

Quote:
We are very well aware of the importance of Surround Back channels for Auro users with a 7.1/11.1 system
I wonder what their ETA is for rolling out this solution, and if it will happen before the release of the D&M's 13.1 capable AVRs/processors.
But from a marketing/sales perspective, I can imagine D&M wanting to make such such solution exclusive to their new product line.

PS And while they're at it, Auro might as well throw in additional Wides and be ready for 15.1 (7.1+wides+5xheights+VOG) on 9.1.6 capable devices ...

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post #4978 of 6354 Old 10-05-2017, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I wonder what their ETA is for rolling out this solution, and if it will happen before the release of the D&M's 13.1 capable AVRs/processors.
But from a marketing/sales perspective, I can imagine D&M wanting to make such such solution exclusive to their new product line.

Looked in the X6400H manual, Denon's first 11 channel AVR, but NO Auro 3D with Surround Back possibility
So if it is a hardware "problem" it would have been solved in this model i guess, but its not.........
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post #4979 of 6354 Old 10-05-2017, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Looked in the X6400H manual, Denon's first 11 channel AVR, but NO Auro 3D with Surround Back possibility
So if it is a hardware "problem" it would have been solved in this model i guess, but its not.........
It doesn't need to be a hardware limitation for D&M to decide not to implement it for existing models. They could just decide not to roll-out the necessary software update, irrespective of the solution AuroTechnologies might be providing...

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post #4980 of 6354 Old 10-05-2017, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Looked in the X6400H manual, Denon's first 11 channel AVR, but NO Auro 3D with Surround Back possibility
So if it is a hardware "problem" it would have been solved in this model i guess, but its not.........
No different than any other D&M’s since 2014.

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