The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 189 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5641 of 6401 Old 07-19-2018, 07:45 PM
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@MagnumX
Forgive me as I didn’t have the energy to cut and paste some of your detailed posts.

Keep in mind Nightlord has been cluttering up this thread with posts for years with literally zero personal experience with any immersive format. So hopefully you can understand why we get tired of him easily.

Sanjay is a very technical guy, he may read that way too, but I’d still recommend taking him off the ignore list since he is very knowledgeable and works for a very well respected audio company.

A lot of us have been at this a long time, I got started young with Marantz quadrophonic receiver (8-track) and 4 Bose speakers. When I bought my second Denon 5200 right after the upgrade for Auro was available, I experimented with speaker placement by using 4 step ladders I picked up at Home Depot trying to find locations that would work well in my HT for Atmos and Auro. Should have taken a picture of my wife’s face when she came downstairs to see what I was up to - I suspect she still thinks I’m nuts (or nuttier). Still shake my head think how excited I was to get Tranformers (Atmos) and the Auro demo disk. I’ve been tempted to revisit Auro, but can’t get motivated to order the few I’d want from overseas and I’m not much of a classical music guy. Plus I’d have to drop $199 since the 5200 with Auro has moved upstairs and I’m getting by right now with a 4300.

In the end we are just trying to learn about the immersive formats, but no one should have to apologize when pointing out that someone doesn’t have the facts right.

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

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post #5642 of 6401 Old 07-19-2018, 10:05 PM
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I had to break apart your post and come back to it.
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The ceiling at 7'4" simply isn't high enough. Even flush ceiling speakers mounted in the ceiling itself would only net around 23 degrees with a 3.5' ear height. There would literally be no choice but to move to ceiling speakers if 30 degrees is considered the minimum acceptable angle.

Then there's dialog lift. Obviously, it's going to work best more or less where I have the presence speakers right now. Atmos ceiling speakers in front of the screen location (to get over 30 degrees) would image in front of the screen not AT the screen. The only way I can see to get dialog lift at the screen and still get a minimum 30 degree angle in the room is to have two sets of speakers (existing and ceiling mounted in front of the screen) and use two receivers in order to generate a separate presence and top front (or top middle) set of signals. In fact, that's pretty much the only way I can think of to keep dialog lift and get a Denon with Audyssey and Auro 3D too. Connect the Denon as normal with top front/rear and/or top middle plus use the pre-outs for the front L/C/R channels to feed the Yamaha which would then extract a dialog lift presence channel and power it along with the front three bed channels. You would lose Audyssey for those front channels (unless you can use the pre-out and amp for them both whereas you'd only lose it for the presence channels there).
That is how I envision maintaining dialog lift. I used Yamaha exclusively from 2001- 2015 when I switched to a Marantz. As the quality of my speakers and my setup knowledge increased my use of the DSP modes decreased until I stopped using them altogether around 2008.

Why not switch to an acoustically transparent screen and eliminate the need for dialog lift?

In my opinion your best compromise to support all 3 formats is to use 4 aimable in-ceiling speakers between 30°-40° (your ceiling is quite low). Take a look at this guide if you haven't already:
https://www.stormaudio.com/media/com...4_13062017.pdf

5.1.4 + Wides can be done in several AVRs from 2015. But only Denon AVR-X6200 & X7200 and Marantz 7010 support Auro3D. Yamaha has never supported Wides (but IMO they will eventually and could potentially even support Auro in their next wave of products). The AVR-X8500 can of course support 9.x.4.
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post #5643 of 6401 Old 07-19-2018, 10:12 PM
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What about this:


1) who will prefer Auro Matic over original Atmos ?


2) will mono VOG sound "better" then stereo Top Middle ?


Thanks for your thoughts
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post #5644 of 6401 Old 07-19-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
What about this:


1) who will prefer Auro Matic over original Atmos ?


2) will mono VOG sound "better" then stereo Top Middle ?


Thanks for your thoughts
What I don't "get" is why Auro won't use Top Middle for VOG. Feeding two stereo channels a mono signal will give a centered single image. Given the locations for top middle being nearly identical to VOG, it just doesn't make any sense for receivers to not allow redirection here to that channel here unless VOG is a defined location. Similarly, top middle may or may not be placed "pretty close" to where surround height might be and at least "might" sound better than the "rear height" location depending on the room dimensions and again, there is no option to assign it that wya without lying and saving/loading a different setup altogether. It's that PITA "factor" that makes me think twice about spending so much money on Denon, especially if the only reason to do so is to play with Auro 3D, which in all likelihood will not ever go anywhere in the US ( at least not any time soon).

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I had to break apart your post and come back to it.

That is how I envision maintaining dialog lift. I used Yamaha exclusively from 2001- 2015 when I switched to a Marantz. As the quality of my speakers and my setup knowledge increased my use of the DSP modes decreased until I stopped using them altogether around 2008.

Why not switch to an acoustically transparent screen and eliminate the need for dialog lift?
For one thing, my screen is actually mounted in front of a draped set of windows (see layout diagram; it drops between two bookcases and it's one of the reasons I can't quite extend the screen all the way (notice lack of top black border on the screen) so mounting a speaker there at a height 5 feet in the air would be quite ugly with the screen retracted. It would also mean the L/R speakers would need to go to the book case to be in the same plane (might look better, but I'd be stuck with bookcase speakers and they're tough to toe-in or anything else when actually mounted in a bookcase). Such screens are also very expensive (I could upgrade my projector to 4K/3D for close to that) and everyone who bought an audio transparent screen before 4K came into effect now effectively has to buy another such screen as the tiny holes used to make it transparent aren't suitable for 4K projection at all (nice present to people that spent a small fortune on such screens).

Frankly, the question (which I asked already and no one answered) is exactly what kind of audio compromise are we talking about with a 20 degree angle instead of a 30 degree one. Bad panning towards the center ceiling? (would center bridging with one set of top middle overheads avoid the 60-degree arc panning issue?) or are we talking about a lowered sound stage for overhead effects? I mean the ceiling is the ceiling. Even my current bipolar side speakers just two feet above ear level present pretty good "plane flying over" effects with the sounds in just the side surround channels (no Atmos needed to sound "overhead", but then no separation between height and bed either). Without trying it out, it's hard to predict how it will sound in the room, especially with any given set of speakers. PSB have very good off-axis response so I'm less concerned about not being able to easily downward tilt the bookshelf speaker (sounds surprisingly clean up there). Obviously, I could try height before going to ceiling if I get the receiver first, but my big issue is deciding on the receiver then, which is dependent on whether I want to bother with Auro 3D and Audyssey versus Yamaha with dialog lift and asserted better reliability.

As for supports for things like wides, I'm getting the impression many of these limitations are due to dependency on 3rd party DSP chips (or at least that is what Trinnovs' site would have me believe). To do 9.1 plus front height, top middle and rear height, I'd need a 15-channel setup and there's nothing out there but something top-end to do that. I'd say that implies a compromise somewhere in the system regardless of what I'd like as I'm not so rich I can dump 30 grand on a processor and I'm not certain how much actual improvement I'd get from something like front wides (and limited scope given it apparently doesn't work with older 5.1/7.1 or Auro 3D soundtracks).

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #5645 of 6401 Old 07-19-2018, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
@MagnumX
In the end we are just trying to learn about the immersive formats, but no one should have to apologize when pointing out that someone doesn’t have the facts right.
That depends on whether you're actually talking about the facts or opinions. While facts were involved, my problem is when someone attacks my opinion like it's not subjective (i.e. "I think Auro 3D sounds like a superior system Dolby is trying to kill with their licensing order" is an impression, not a fact or even a listening opinion. When you acknowledge that Dolby has objects and Auro 3D does not but objects aren't the be-all end-all thing in a lesser channel environment, I get more arguments back. Why would someone argue about an opinion? Yes, give your own opinion, but you can't convince someone something sounds better by saying so. They have to hear it. Ragging on it post after post after post is not helpful, IMO.

It reminds me of the old Mac Vs. PC arguments. There was a lot of reasons PCs were "better", IMO (better supported gaming APIs, more hardware choices, lower prices) and a few in favor of the Mac at the time (i.e. circa 2005-10), namely a better more reliable operating system (outside of gaming), at least before Windows 10. Now Windows 10 has taken many Mac cues and many old problems no longer exist from the XP/Vista era, but if privacy is important to someone (Windows 10 itself is spyware in a way since it's always sending data to Microsoft whether you want it to or not, let alone forced upgrades you cannot deny short of the professional level) and worrying about malware is more of a concern (there just isn't much at all on a Mac), well there's still reasons to choose Mac despite continued crappy hardware choices, ridiculously high prices and poor gaming support. So what's "better" ? You can make technical points all day long, but one technical point (better gaming API support) does not a total SYSTEM make. The overall experience is subjective based on personal priorities and this case subjective sound impressions. Worse yet, I'm just reading about the material and other people's experiences. I have not heard Auro 3D in the home.

So from my perspective, arguing/yelling at me about impressions I'm getting instead of even something I've heard is not only absurd, but wasting my time post after post (I'm sick of arguing about things all over the Net, not just here. It's very tiring.) I'd rather discuss potential than "What's better, Atmos or Auro 3D?" Auro 3D has already lost so it doesn't really matter. I don't have to "like" Dolby as a company. I don't like their strong-arm tactics at all. It reminds me of Microsoft in the 1990s, trying to monopolize the market not by being better, but by trying to force the competition out of business with license deals, the same thing I'm seeing here from Dolby. It was wrong then with Microsoft and it's wrong now with Dolby. If Atmos is truly superior, it should be able to stand on its own two feet by merits alone, not trying to license others out of business. But that is just my opinion.

Nightlord's opinions are still his opinions too, even if his logic doesn't seem to make sense. I can't agree with making fun of someone just because they don't like something. Having Mr. Alexander tell me they're hear to educate not argue and then shortly thereafter posting that "Earth isn't f-ing flat" snippet didn't help make his case with me. When I say "smug" I mean THAT. I'm right and you're wrong and I'll make fun of you because well...it's funny to me and my buddy here that know more than you guys! LOL! Yeah. Yeah, that's not funny to me and I doubt Nightlord either.

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #5646 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I'm just unsure whether the 2D BD in the 3D pack has the Auro3D track.
Yes, it does. So also, if you buy the UHD version, the UHD disc has Atmos and the BD has Auro, for example.

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post #5647 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It would be great if you would just compare the Atmos version with Tops vs Heights. I think you will find an improvement.

When comparing immersive formats with lossless tracks (speaker config optimized for each format), I suspect that easiest conclusion to come to will be that they are different… rather than declaring a winner.

The only Auro3D movie I own is Red Tails. Everything else is music. Even 2L's Pure Audio releases now contain both Auro3D and Atmos. I just bit the bullet and ordered Arneson Magnificat ($30). I suspect the Atmos version will sound identical, even though its sampling rate is 48kHz vs 96kHz for Auro3D. We'll see.

This is a list of immeresive music titles: http://www.audiophile.no/en/item/2288-musikk-i-3d

PM me if you have any immersive music you'd like to sell.
You will get your wish. Disc is on it's way to Steve Drucker and he says he will do his own comparison.

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post #5648 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, i have 2049 in both versions. However i tested it in Atmos 7.1.6 vs Auro 13.1. And i agree, Auro sounds better. I have said it before, Auro tends to sound more natural and logical, sounds eminate more from where they should sound compared to what happens on screen. And the ambiance, the feeling of being in the space you see on screen is noticable better in Auro.

Same in Jumanji: Welcome to the jungle, when they are in the jungle, there is so much better sense of being there, compared to Atmos.
Exactly my opinion after an A:B comparison with BR 2049.
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post #5649 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 08:05 AM
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That's just not possible! Atmos is the superior format! I was told this by those that know better than the rest of us put together. Someone must have been asleep at the wheel or something the day it was mixed (i.e. A fluke...ok a few flukes).

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #5650 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 09:09 AM
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You will get your wish. Disc is on it's way to Steve Drucker and he says he will do his own comparison.
I've already compared TOPS vs HEIGHTS w/Atmos. I was curious what kind of differences it made for you since you sold off your Auro disc (his name is Stewart BTW).

I appreciated your reviews and ordered both Jumanji 2 and BR 2049 w/Auro as a result of your (and @imureh 's) posts.
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post #5651 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 09:20 AM
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his name is Stewart BTW
He spells it Stuart BTW.
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post #5652 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 09:34 AM
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He spells it Stuart BTW.
Ouch!!

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post #5653 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post

Then there's dialog lift. Obviously, it's going to work best more or less where I have the presence speakers right now. Atmos ceiling speakers in front of the screen location (to get over 30 degrees) would image in front of the screen not AT the screen. The only way I can see to get dialog lift at the screen and still get a minimum 30 degree angle in the room is to have two sets of speakers (existing and ceiling mounted in front of the screen) and use two receivers in order to generate a separate presence and top front (or top middle) set of signals. In fact, that's pretty much the only way I can think of to keep dialog lift and get a Denon with Audyssey and Auro 3D too. Connect the Denon as normal with top front/rear and/or top middle plus use the pre-outs for the front L/C/R channels to feed the Yamaha which would then extract a dialog lift presence channel and power it along with the front three bed channels. You would lose Audyssey for those front channels (unless you can use the pre-out and amp for them both whereas you'd only lose it for the presence channels there). That would create potentially a 7.x.8 or a 9.x.6 system (where 2 channels are presence/dialog height only channels). Obviously, with a better alternate second receiver than the old one I have which isn't even HDMI, you could manage 9.x.8 that way and even 11.x.8 with an extra row of side surrounds as a delayed array set feeding 3-4 rows near perfectly and 5-6 with slight compromises (depending on room dimensions). That could easily seat 30-40 people with a decent sized room.

But in my room with something less than the Denon 8500, that would probably mean 7.1.6 at most with two receivers, keeping dialog height channels only for that and having 4 ceiling speakers. With the Denon 8500, I'd still have to choose between front wides and top middle. I don't think top middle would image well for both front and back of the room due to the ceiling beam blocking line of site for the rear rows so it would probably be better use to front wide there. I'm not even sure if the line of sight would extend to the rear of the room in the Dolby top front position. None of these are "ideal" for all possible rows in this room. Some seats are going to get surround effects mostly or entirely in front of them. I suppose I could put side wall rear surrounds in the back instead and then the back would have it good, but the recliner in the second row wouldn't get the left rear channels well (heights or bed) and the front row would have constrained rear width compared to the side surrounds. Everything is a compromise. OTOH, 95% of the time, it'd just be one or two people using the system so perhaps it's better to simply set up around that and either not do two seats in the back or not worry about those seats being ideal.

Hi, i also use "Dialog lift".
In the pic you see 4 speakers above the screen, and one center below the screen.
The 2 outer speakers are Front Height, the 2 inner speakers are the support speakers for the below center.
I did not like the dialogs coming just from the center, very much from under the screen.
I have the 2 "heigh center" speakers on a Denon 520 through the Center pre-out, so i can adjust the volume level to the below center so its in balance.
I must say turning the 520 on and off is a world of differents.
The dialogs do drop down when i turn the 520 off, and the overall sound of the combined center speakers is more clear and very pleasnt to listen to.
I will never go back to just one center !


After getting the volume in sync for center heigh and center low, i run Audyssey and all is great


The other pictures show my setup, at the moment 7.1.6
The receiver is a Denon X8500H.
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post #5654 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 12:30 PM
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So I take it using a pre-out isn't somehow detected or vice versa that you can use both at the same time? That could be very useful for adding extra array speakers. I've even thought about repurposing my external HDMI switch's optical output to just send duplicate 5.1 bed signals to the old Yamaha receiver (only one cable needed).

I don't like having to use DSP modes to get dialog lift (crappy reverb etc.is added and not needed or desired) so I was thinking of just sending the left/right front channels without center extraction (phantom) from the old Yamaha instead of presence to the bookshelf speakers. Volume/delay can be adjusted from that receiver to control the height of the image. It would work then with any mode or upmixer unlike Yamaha's mode limitations and any receiver can be used on either end, not just Yamaha (I have an even older Denon that's more basic yet and reuse the Yamaha elsewhere).

Using left/right non-phantom instead of center out would lift the entire front soundstage to the middle of the screen not just dialog. I have to consider that surrounds shouldn't be too low then or they won't line up with the screen, but that also puts the bed closer to the heights so I'm thinking high angle ceiling mounted speakers might be needed to move the top soundstage up even further (subtract new height distance from calculation to get the new minimum angle since the soundstage is now above zero degrees), but the end result would probably be closer to an actual movie theater sound for a large screen. The end result would be either 7.x.4 + dialog height speakers or 9.x.4 + dialog height speakers. Auro would be a little more complicated.

Click THEATER (Updated: Oct-19-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 10-13-19)
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post #5655 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
So I take it using a pre-out isn't somehow detected or vice versa that you can use both at the same time? That could be very useful for adding extra array speakers. I've even thought about repurposing my external HDMI switch's optical output to just send duplicate 5.1 bed signals to the old Yamaha receiver (only one cable needed).

I don't like having to use DSP modes to get dialog lift (crappy reverb etc.is added and not needed or desired) so I was thinking of just sending the left/right front channels without center extraction (phantom) from the old Yamaha instead of presence to the bookshelf speakers. Volume/delay can be adjusted from that receiver to control the height of the image. It would work then with any mode or upmixer unlike Yamaha's mode limitations and any receiver can be used on either end, not just Yamaha (I have an even older Denon that's more basic yet and reuse the Yamaha elsewhere).

Using left/right non-phantom instead of center out would lift the entire front soundstage to the middle of the screen not just dialog. I have to consider that surrounds shouldn't be too low then or they won't line up with the screen, but that also puts the bed closer to the heights so I'm thinking high angle ceiling mounted speakers might be needed to move the top soundstage up even further (subtract new height distance from calculation to get the new minimum angle since the soundstage is now above zero degrees), but the end result would probably be closer to an actual movie theater sound for a large screen. The end result would be either 7.x.4 + dialog height speakers or 9.x.4 + dialog height speakers. Auro would be a little more complicated.

with the use of the pre-outs (and the 8500 has all the 13 channels as pre-out) you can use any external amp(s) you want.
I have the 520 on Direct mode, so its putting out what comes in from the 8500, also the Audyssey corrections.
In my case the 520 drives the 2 high centers, both in parallel as one speaker, and its doing surround back, with a Y-splitter on the pre-out L/R also as 1 speaker on the rear, a KEF T301 you see in the middle of the Di-pole speakers (surround L/R).
But when i can get a cheap 2nd 520, i will buy it and hook up the high center and surround back each on a seperate amp.
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post #5656 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
with the use of the pre-outs (and the 8500 has all the 13 channels as pre-out) you can use any external amp(s) you want.
I meant that you can still use the internal amps for those channels at the same time (i.e. not an either/or situation)?

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post #5657 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
As with many Atmos BD releases, Auro too is limited to 2D BD only.

I posted links to all Auro BD releases a page or two ago
@Nalleh , I had to verify…

All titles released with Atmos on the standard (1080p) Blu-ray also contains the Atmos track on the 3D disc. This includes Blade Runner 2049.

This begs the question, what is the file size of the Auro3D/Dts track vs Atmos/True HD of the same title?

I'm used to searching for import 3D titles but 3D + Auro3D titles (at a reasonable price) proved monumental. The easiest title to find was Pixels at Amazon UK. My best source for Jumanji 2 in 3D + Auro came from Sri Lanka and Blade Runner 2049 from Czech Republic.

I just don't get the inconsistency (seemingly randomness) of Auro releases for specific countries.⁉


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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
The other pictures show my setup, at the moment 7.1.6
The receiver is a Denon X8500H.

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post #5659 of 6401 Old 07-20-2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I meant that you can still use the internal amps for those channels at the same time (i.e. not an either/or situation)?

You could, but then you loose volume control as they will act as one.
You can try and hope that they will be in the same volume level but change is that you will still hear the lower or higher center more then the other.


I my setup i have 1 SB speaker, but its doing SB L/R.
(and i must use 2 SB speakers, Dolby will not work with 1 SB speaker where DTS will....)
You can not combine 2 speakers out (L/R) to 1 speaker, at least, i do not know how.
Connecting 2 or more speakers to 1 output is no problem, but 1 speaker to 2 outputs
Now i have a Y-splitter on the L/R pre-out and this goes to 1 input on the 520 making it 2 speakers out to 1.
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post #5660 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Nalleh , I had to verify…

All titles released with Atmos on the standard (1080p) Blu-ray also contains the Atmos track on the 3D disc. This includes Blade Runner 2049.

This begs the question, what is the file size of the Auro3D/Dts track vs Atmos/True HD of the same title?

I'm used to searching for import 3D titles but 3D + Auro3D titles (at a reasonable price) proved monumental. The easiest title to find was Pixels at Amazon UK. My best source for Jumanji 2 in 3D + Auro came from Sri Lanka and Blade Runner 2049 from Czech Republic.

I just don't get the inconsistency (seemingly randomness) of Auro releases for specific countries.⁉
Well, not all. Gravity in 3D comes to mind, and i know others do not have Atmos in 3D, but maybe not that many.

Anyway in Auro the only one i have seen where the 3D disc has Auro is Spiderman Homeconing(DE).

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post #5661 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
You could, but then you loose volume control as they will act as one.
You can try and hope that they will be in the same volume level but change is that you will still hear the lower or higher center more then the other.
Shouldn't you be able to adjust the relative output from the second receiver? It adjusts in fixed amounts so once matched you then only use volume on the first receiver. I used to run my old Denon in combination with my Sonic Holography C5 preamp for the Sonic Holography function for the front L/R speakers. I only had to set volume once on the Carver with a sound meter.

Quote:
I my setup i have 1 SB speaker, but its doing SB L/R.
(and i must use 2 SB speakers, Dolby will not work with 1 SB speaker where DTS will....)
That's news to me. On my Yamaha, you can set one surround back speaker for a 6.1 base configuration. The newer A3070 shows the same option. I've assumed it would sum the L/R channels in that config. Dolby Digital EX is 6.1 so I can't imagine Dolby not supporting a 6.1 legacy configuration. Meanwhile, EX with 7.1 channels just sends mono to both speakers.

But then my old Yamaha is pre-TrueHD being a component based receiver (currently using an external HDMI switch with optical back to the receiver until I get a newer one.). I suppose they could just block 7.1 and only output for 6.1 EX, but that would be crappy of them. But then it's Dolby so I wouldn't put it past them.

I always thought even with 7.1, they should provide a rear center surround option (pro logic steered to lock rear center in place; putting rear sides along the second or third row and the rear center behind that row). But nope. They don't care about off-axis listeners.

Quote:
You can not combine 2 speakers out (L/R) to 1 speaker, at least, i do not know how.
So it outputs nothing if you set it for one rear speaker? Or are you saying it simply doesn't play anything on Dolby 7.1 soundtracks, just EX steered ones? Or is this an issue with the Dolby Surround codec (seeing how most AVRs have ditched the old legacy modes, which I think is a mistake. A lot of people miss DPLIIx music mode, for example.)

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post #5662 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
As with many Atmos BD releases, Auro too is limited to 2D BD only.

I posted links to all Auro BD releases a page or two ago [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
@Nalleh , I had to verify…

All titles released with Atmos on the standard (1080p) Blu-ray also contains the Atmos track on the 3D disc. This includes Blade Runner 2049.
Many 3D titles only get 5.1 or 7.1 even when the 2D 2K disc has Atmos (Blade Runner 2049 is one such example. It is only 5.1 on the 3D disc. You can mix your own Atmos 3D disc using the track from the 2D 2K copy, however.

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post #5663 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Many 3D titles only get 5.1 or 7.1 even when the 2D 2K disc has Atmos (Blade Runner 2049 is one such example. It is only 5.1 on the 3D disc. You can mix your own Atmos 3D disc using the track from the 2D 2K copy, however.
Indeed, 3D have no Atmos:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Blade-...lu-ray/190352/

Look at the back cover.

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post #5664 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Well, not all. Gravity in 3D comes to mind, and i know others do not have Atmos in 3D, but maybe not that many.

Anyway in Auro the only one i have seen where the 3D disc has Auro is Spiderman Homeconing(DE).
Gravity is a bit of a special case since the Atmos was a re-release (Diamond Luxe Edition) with no 3D version.

Spiderman Homecoming? Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Many 3D titles only get 5.1 or 7.1 even when the 2D 2K disc has Atmos (Blade Runner 2049 is one such example. It is only 5.1 on the 3D disc. You can mix your own Atmos 3D disc using the track from the 2D 2K copy, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Indeed, 3D have no Atmos:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Blade-...lu-ray/190352/

Look at the back cover.
Thanks guys. It does indeed appear to be an issue of space on the 3D discs. From the BR 2049 Blu-ray review:
Quote:
The standard Blu-ray and UHD disc of BR 2049 offer a choice between Dolby Atmos and DTS-HD MA 5.1 tracks, which I continue to believe is a needless redundancy. Here, as on all their recent 3D iterations of such releases, Warner has dropped one of the two soundtracks to save space, and once again they have made the wrong choice by omitting the Atmos track.
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post #5665 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 11:57 AM
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I don't understand why you've been posting in this thread for 3+ years yet haven't installed anything immersive in your room.

I'm waiting until there's a good enough choice. I don't do half-assed inbetween upgrades. I have 8 unused speakers currently, four that was put for the time period that they Audyssey system of front high/front wide was the future... and four speakers destined for VoG, they were tried out the location for december 2014. At that point I was moving the common mode contents of the side surrounds to them... which in most cases turned out of be close to nothing at all...



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On that note, have you considered buying Atmos and/or Dts:X headphones to provide your listeners a 100% identical listening experience?

No, do they have intercom so you can talk to each and pick up crips bag crunching... and most importantly of all.. are the motion tracking with soundfield recoding for when you move your head around? As sound that follows you rather than the film, that's definitely no high fidelity...

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post #5666 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Keep in mind Nightlord has been cluttering up this thread with posts for years with literally zero personal experience with any immersive format.

I've heard 60+ setups, at conventions, shops and friends' setups. I go every time there's a convention near enough, which your be approximately twice yearly.
From entry level up to a couple of hundred thousand USD. So far a big JBL Synthesis rig holds the best performance heard, but I'd still rather see a movie in my own theater in 7.1 - or even 5.1.



I'll try shutting up for longer periods so I won't clutter your eyespace... but I do hate when people are getting fed wrong information...

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post #5667 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 12:16 PM
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No Marvel movie I'm aware of has Atmos for 3D releases. They're typically all 7.1 DTS. They could even just include a DD+ Atmos mix if room is the issue. I find it far more likely they want to slight 3D releases as they seem to hate 3D.

Others want Atmos only on 4K to push you to buy it instead. Harry Potter 4K box set is DTS:X but the 2K pack is 6.1 or 5.1 (old mixes). They couldn't even bother to upgrade them all to 6.1 or 7.1 base. Why bother to include them at all?

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post #5668 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Shouldn't you be able to adjust the relative output from the second receiver? It adjusts in fixed amounts so once matched you then only use volume on the first receiver. I used to run my old Denon in combination with my Sonic Holography C5 preamp for the Sonic Holography function for the front L/R speakers. I only had to set volume once on the Carver with a sound meter.



That's news to me. On my Yamaha, you can set one surround back speaker for a 6.1 base configuration. The newer A3070 shows the same option. I've assumed it would sum the L/R channels in that config. Dolby Digital EX is 6.1 so I can't imagine Dolby not supporting a 6.1 legacy configuration. Meanwhile, EX with 7.1 channels just sends mono to both speakers.

But then my old Yamaha is pre-TrueHD being a component based receiver (currently using an external HDMI switch with optical back to the receiver until I get a newer one.). I suppose they could just block 7.1 and only output for 6.1 EX, but that would be crappy of them. But then it's Dolby so I wouldn't put it past them.

I always thought even with 7.1, they should provide a rear center surround option (pro logic steered to lock rear center in place; putting rear sides along the second or third row and the rear center behind that row). But nope. They don't care about off-axis listeners.



So it outputs nothing if you set it for one rear speaker? Or are you saying it simply doesn't play anything on Dolby 7.1 soundtracks, just EX steered ones? Or is this an issue with the Dolby Surround codec (seeing how most AVRs have ditched the old legacy modes, which I think is a mistake. A lot of people miss DPLIIx music mode, for example.)

When you install 2 speakers out of the same serie like i did, even then they have different specs and volume levels will be of a bit between them.
Also they are not at the same distance, so the only correct way to get this right is level them out with a seperate amp and when they are at the same volume level, run Audyssey or as disbalance will stay.


DSU "needs" 2 surround back speakers.
As soon as you select 1, DSU or Atmos will not use them.
DTS is different, they will work with 1 SB speakers but are limited to a 11 channel setup.
For Auro i do not know, i find Auro at the moment the most "difficult" one in setup options, even now they do use SB in the 8500.
I would like to see Top Middle could be used as VOG, and not again a seperate (mono) speaker for VOG.
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post #5669 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 01:25 PM
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I'll try shutting up for longer periods so I won't clutter your eyespace... but I do hate when people are getting fed wrong information...
No, you shouldn't stop posting!

I've enjoyed many of your posts over the years. I have been offput by some of your opinions regarding FACTS in this thread. Specifically your arguing with industry insiders like @FilmMixer . Did you know he was an actual film mixer at the time? I take an insider's word like his as gospel (he even posted screenshots of his the mixing console!).

I do feel strongly that facts are facts and misinformation must be corrected. Regardless, I've never seen you cross the line in any disagreement. I know @MagnumX feels I crossed the line with the "Earth is flat" meme but it summed up exactly how I felt. I'll be glad to delete it if you feel I went too far.

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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
'm waiting until there's a good enough choice. I don't do half-assed inbetween upgrades. I have 8 unused speakers currently, four that was put for the time period that they Audyssey system of front high/front wide was the future... and four speakers destined for VoG, they were tried out the location for december 2014. At that point I was moving the common mode contents of the side surrounds to them... which in most cases turned out of be close to nothing at all...
You have been missing out on some great immersive content over the last few years. It seems obvious that Atmos is the defacto standard now. Dts once touted speaker location agnostics (which has only become Virtual X and not what they led us to believe). They seem to simply be following the Atmos speaker layouts. Auro3D is simply the odd man out. Auro sounds great through an Atmos speaker layout. It is not the huge compromise they might have you think.

When you optimize speaker placement for your room, all 3 formats sound great. I installed Top Middles before I had a way to utilize them. Get off of the sidelines and start enjoying. C'mon in, the water's fine. This hobby is about the content, not the formats (or discussing them).
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...-lay-outs.html

Quote:
No, do they have intercom so you can talk to each and pick up crips bag crunching... and most importantly of all.. are the motion tracking with soundfield recoding for when you move your head around? As sound that follows you rather than the film, that's definitely no high fidelity...
VR delivers this for gaming. I've only experienced Playstation VR and the 24 VR experience (Samsung - The Raid). While super cool, I just can't imagine sustained use for a full-length movie.

I remember you being involved in game development. Is this your main occupation?

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post #5670 of 6401 Old 07-21-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
DSU "needs" 2 surround back speakers.
As soon as you select 1, DSU or Atmos will not use them.
DTS is different, they will work with 1 SB speakers but are limited to a 11 channel setup.
For Auro i do not know, i find Auro at the moment the most "difficult" one in setup options, even now they do use SB in the 8500.
I would like to see Top Middle could be used as VOG, and not again a seperate (mono) speaker for VOG.
Good info. I did not know that 2 surround backs were required in those scenarios.

I agree regarding the VoG. Utilizing Top Mids for VoG seems so obvious. Auro needs to work more closely with their partners to optimize the experience. If they want to survive on the consumer side they need to do more.

Including Auro3D free vs the $200 license fee was a good move which they should have done long ago. They need to do the same with other <$5k AVR/AVR manufacturers.

Charging $28 for demo discs is absolutely ludicrous. Their actual international shipping fee should be under $7. SMH

And what is up with the seemingly random countries of availability for Auro3D Blu-ray movies? Plus a whopping ZERO for the USA. What gives. They way they have run things from 2014 until now just doesn't make sense to me.
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