The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 197 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5881 of 6354 Old 09-04-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I have no clue why you keep on bringing up observations and comments that concern Atmos, while this whole discussion that you started yourself is about DSU. If you want to use quotes about Atmos to strengthen your point about how DSU distributes its overhead info, you should also include comments from those same respected posters where they confirm that in this aspect there is no difference between Atmos and DSU. Or you could ask them for it, as my repeated clarification on this point is obviously not sufficient to convince you.
I stated that Atmos and DSU do nearly the same thing when 6 height speakers are used, they both use the TM speakers as main height speakers in a .6 setup.
You brought up that Atmos was different then DSU.
Non of your "clarifications" are of any use to me as you keep bringing up your own (whitepaper) info.
I use the X8500H and can compare 1 on 1 how DSU/Atmos is using the TM in a .6 setup.

We are running in circles and its
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post #5882 of 6354 Old 09-04-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I used the "Still Have Questions? Email Us" form on the lower left of this page:

https://marantz.custhelp.com/app/uti...m/redirect/ask
Thanks again for your assistance.
Sal

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post #5883 of 6354 Old 09-06-2018, 04:31 AM
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We are running in circles and its...
Time to say good bye? Fine.

But remember:

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I will not stop replying to posts that IMO need replying to, and that may include yours.
So don't be surprised if we meet again...

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
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post #5884 of 6354 Old 09-12-2018, 09:45 AM
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I just got three more Auro 3D movies in today. Flatliners and Pixels from the UK and Inferno from Australia. Inferno is Region B/C only. Yeah, MakeMKV and KODI don't care about that.... Fortunately, it's wrapped in DTS 5.1 whereas only Red Tails has been true PCM, which means it won't work from KODI at all (probably a bug in KODI, but the sort of they would never bother fixing for all of two people). I have to play Red Tails off the disc to get Auro3D to extract.

That puts me at 8 Auro 3D movie titles total plus the Volume 2 Demo disc. I'll probably look at some music titles next.

Edit: Well, you can register out of country Sony UV discs if you use a VPN to spoof the country it's registered to. It will still transfer into your single UV account and then spread to Vudu and then spread to iTunes like some kind of virus.... This got the Flatliners one into my digital collection and when I tried to get the Sony Reward (towards a free movie) for Flatliners, it told me, sorry, but Sony Rewards are not available outside the US. Oops. Turn off VPN. Reload and try again. There we go. One more towards a free disc. It's funny how the code registers the free movie outside the US only and yet only gives the reward inside the US. Ah well. Their attempts to stop me from collecting the promised digital copy (shouldn't matter where I buy it from) fails again.... Muahaahaha.

Sadly, I couldn't register the other two Sony titles the same way because I already have the US versions registered for both UV and the Rewards program. I didn't need the former, but I would have liked to get two discs closer to a free title ("You can only have one rewards redemption per title"). Hey, I paid for two copies, I should get credit for two copies! Bastards....

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post #5885 of 6354 Old 09-14-2018, 06:37 PM
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Two more Auro3D titles on the way (Passengers and Spiderman Homecoming)....
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post #5886 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 02:09 PM
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I've been reading a lot about Auro 3D and checking out a lot of video reviews, demonstrations, and setup tutorials. I even found a Cinemark XD theater about 21 miles away that has better pricing than I anticipated.

That said, the one stumbling block I've had is trying to find sites that detail what audio format the movies are mixed in, along with reviews on the audio quality of both the theater and Blu-ray versions of the films.

So can anyone refer me to some sites that detail the audio formats each movie is mixed with, as well as reviews on the audio quality of both theater and Blu-ray versions of them?

I ask this because we all know the format is not enough info to go by. We've all had music CDs and BDs that vary greatly in sound quality regardless of their format, though starting with an Auro3D mix I'm sure helps a lot.
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post #5887 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Red Tails has been true PCM, which means it won't work from KODI at all (probably a bug in KODI, but the sort of they would never bother fixing for all of two people). I have to play Red Tails off the disc to get Auro3D to extract.
If you want Auro to extract then any and all processing in Kodi has to be bypassed. That's easier to do when outputting a bitstream -- or at least it's a lot easier to tell -- 'cause if it's not correct then you get a wrong format like stereo PCM or just white noise.

For example, in Kodi System Settings >Player Settings >Videos >"Sync playback to Display" must be disabled or the audio gets resampled. Took me a bit of fiddling to get Kodi set up so I could have Atmos, DTS:X etc all supported as passthrough.

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post #5888 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 04:37 PM
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I bypassed everything I could bypass. It's probably an obscure KODI bug, but they will never look at it since no one else cares and I'm not real popular there after insulting one of the developers (thought the comment was private, although the jerk really deserved it either way for insulting a user whom he couldn't understand properly because English was his second language (when in doubt, insult the guy because he's a peon and you're a rock star from Mars.) All the KODI developers are known for being egotistical jerks anyway. They even banned their own WIKI guy for just doing his damn job when one developer was trying to get at another one by deleting all their work and he stepped in and blocked the developer's access. Banned for doing the right thing and the other arses there went along with it. People kiss their butts anyway because it's FREE).

I wish there was a good alternative. I'm wondering if the Zidoo player's custom player used for 3D might be able to read it. Then again it's just one disc. How often am I going to watch it?

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 7-5-19)
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post #5889 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I bypassed everything I could bypass. It's probably an obscure KODI bug
Too bad there isn't an easier way to check for bit-perfect playback of PCM soundtracks.

Do you have any DTS-CDs loaded into Kodi? Does your decoder see them as a DTS bitstream? It may not be a valid test for BD content, though. OTOH, if it fails, then you know there's something not set up right.

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post #5890 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post
I've been reading a lot about Auro 3D and checking out a lot of video reviews, demonstrations, and setup tutorials. I even found a Cinemark XD theater about 21 miles away that has better pricing than I anticipated.

That said, the one stumbling block I've had is trying to find sites that detail what audio format the movies are mixed in, along with reviews on the audio quality of both the theater and Blu-ray versions of the films.

So can anyone refer me to some sites that detail the audio formats each movie is mixed with, as well as reviews on the audio quality of both theater and Blu-ray versions of them?

I ask this because we all know the format is not enough info to go by. We've all had music CDs and BDs that vary greatly in sound quality regardless of their format, though starting with an Auro3D mix I'm sure helps a lot.
Honestly, if you're that picky and worried about quality, just forget about Auro3D. There's only 17 movies released in it worldwide so far on Blu-Ray and several of them aren't great movies to begin with. The format is probably doomed unless Auro can pull a rabbit out of their butt. They don't even seem to be trying anymore, IMO. They probably realized it's a waste of time and are concentrating on the one area they still have a sizable stake in, which is the Barco cinemas (there's two within 50 miles here, one about 2 miles away from me; Atmos theaters are nowhere to be found around here. I'm not sure if the local Regal cinema has DTS X or not (they don't advertise it and I haven't seen a movie there in a good while). But for home formats, Atmos and X are the only players in town in the US (and DTS came out of nowhere and sailed right by Auro3D, probably by doing the opposite of what they did, giving most of the stuff away for FREE or dirt cheap plugins so the studios would adopt it to save money whereas it seems Auro wanted hefty enough licensing fees that Denon/Marantz charged $199 just to get the format for the first couple of years (bad move if you want adoption).

I got the decoder anyway to try the upmixer and compare movies and maybe check out some quadraphonic music, etc. I don't figure it will do much more than that.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 7-5-19)
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post #5891 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Too bad there isn't an easier way to check for bit-perfect playback of PCM soundtracks.

Do you have any DTS-CDs loaded into Kodi? Does your decoder see them as a DTS bitstream? It may not be a valid test for BD content, though. OTOH, if it fails, then you know there's something not set up right.
Yeah, I have over a dozen. As long as they're in WAV format, they playback fine. They have never worked in ALAC containers, however, which to me indicates something amiss in the system (i.e. AppleTV Gen1 could play back DTS CD files stored in ALAC just fine without even trying (Apple never supported DTS). That meant AppleTV decoded and output a PRECISE duplicate of the PCM stored within ALAC. It both proved ALAC was 100% lossless as advertised and the PCM was unmodified. No AppleTV since can do that because they all upsample to 48kHz.

For whatever reason, DTS CDs will NOT playback in ALAC format in KODI, not even on a Shield that has the best passthrough of any unit out there, AFAIK. I've brought this up before on the KODI forums (even long before the insult incident) and they couldn't have cared less. I mean they don't even LOOK at such things, let alone respond, which is why I say it would be a waste of time to even bring it up there (I already did in a thread about 3D where Auro3D was mentioned and someone suggsted I should start my own thread as it sounded like a legit bug, but I told them the same thing. It's a flipping waste of time. Team KODI only cares about things they personally care about. They've made that clear from day one. They work on what they want to work on and fixing bugs or adding trivial support features like ID Tags for M4V files is NOT ON THEIR LISTS. We've proven that ID Tag reading already can read M4V files if you relabel the M4V to M4A (i.e. the tag reader in the music player reads it perfectly). All they had to do was move that same code over with a few slight modifications to the video player, but in 12 LONG years, not one developer has bothered. NOT ONE. The guy who split off MrMC sounded interested, but he's so busy doing other things he just never gets to it. The standard canned response is "Let us know when you've coded it and MAYBE we'll use it it your code isn't total crap." Otherwise, it'll just be in a branch). Yeah, us non-coders will get right on that guys! All those donations and they treat their user base like crap. If it weren't free, I wouldn't bother.

I'm sure it's something simple as they never had Auro3D files in mind (again, DTS *ONLY* works in WAV format despite KODI supporting several other formats that are supposedly "lossless" (like ALAC and FLAC) and those do NOT work, which means KODI is doing "something" that is not bit-pure in those cases and they surely KNOW IT or it would work in EVERY lossless format automatically! But we'll likely never know the reason (unless you're friends with one of them or something).

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post #5892 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post
I've been reading a lot about Auro 3D and checking out a lot of video reviews, demonstrations, and setup tutorials. I even found a Cinemark XD theater about 21 miles away that has better pricing than I anticipated.

That said, the one stumbling block I've had is trying to find sites that detail what audio format the movies are mixed in, along with reviews on the audio quality of both the theater and Blu-ray versions of the films.

So can anyone refer me to some sites that detail the audio formats each movie is mixed with, as well as reviews on the audio quality of both theater and Blu-ray versions of them?

I ask this because we all know the format is not enough info to go by. We've all had music CDs and BDs that vary greatly in sound quality regardless of their format, though starting with an Auro3D mix I'm sure helps a lot.
You can try these sites for reviews, etc. But as MagnumX has already mentioned, if your looking for Auro's discs I doubt you'll find any reviews of the Auro soundtracks. These site will normally be reviewing a US disc in Dolby or DTS mixes.

https://www.blu-ray.com/
https://bluray.highdefdigest.com/

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post #5893 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Yeah, I have over a dozen. As long as they're in WAV format, they playback fine.


Quote:
They have never worked in ALAC containers, however, which to me indicates something amiss in the system (i.e. AppleTV Gen1 could play back DTS CD files stored in ALAC just fine without even trying (Apple never supported DTS). That meant AppleTV decoded and output a PRECISE duplicate of the PCM stored within ALAC. It both proved ALAC was 100% lossless as advertised and the PCM was unmodified. No AppleTV since can do that because they all upsample to 48kHz.
Yup, I had my DTS CDs ripped into iTunes on a Gen1 ATV, but had to retire that unit after 10 years of faithful service once Apple decided to force obsolescence via a recent OS update. But in retrospect I now thank Apple for moving me away from their music platform as I enjoy all the previous content plus all my 5.1 SACDs and DVD-As via Roon.

Quote:
For whatever reason, DTS CDs will NOT playback in ALAC format in KODI, not even on a Shield that has the best passthrough of any unit out there, AFAIK. I've brought this up before on the KODI forums (even long before the insult incident) and they couldn't have cared less.
Quote:
DTS *ONLY* works in WAV format despite KODI supporting several other formats that are supposedly "lossless" (like ALAC and FLAC) and those do NOT work, which means KODI is doing "something" that is not bit-pure in those cases and they surely KNOW IT or it would work in EVERY lossless format automatically!
Well, at least the ability to play DTS as wav shows there is not some global issue in the chain that would scuttle the Auro stream. But the fact that both FLAC and ALAC decoding is not bit-perfect invites the possibility that there may well be other areas in Kodi that are not bit-accurate.

Might be better off playing via JRiver. Or just use a disc player for that rare Auroccasion.

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post #5894 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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I do have a few movies in both Atmos and Auro3D. I haven't compared them all, but for one example, other than the rear channel issue, Blade Runner sounded hella similar in both.

Of course if they're mixed the same and played back on the same system, you'd expect that. I need to compare something like Johnny Mnemonic which was mixed by separate teams. But then is it the system or the mixing team? The speaker layout or the format?

Frankly, I think the mix is more important. Bad mix, boring soundtrack. If Neural X sounds better, bad mix.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 7-5-19)
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post #5895 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 08:02 PM
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I must admit to having seen ("heard") only one movie in Auro3D theatrically (Mockingjay - Part 1)--either the movie mix or the theater config (or both!) were so poorly done that I wrote a complaint letter to the theater chain.

However, I plan to upgrade my home office system with a Denon X4500 in early 2019, and I suspect I'll be unable to resist buying one of the 2L audio-only BDs with both Atmos and Auro3D tracks mixed from the same recording session, just as soon as the AV system is up and running again! For example, http://www.2l.no/pages/album/146.html

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post #5896 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
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You can try these sites for reviews, etc. But as MagnumX has already mentioned, if your looking for Auro's discs I doubt you'll find any reviews of the Auro soundtracks. These site will normally be reviewing a US disc in Dolby or DTS mixes.

https://www.blu-ray.com/
https://bluray.highdefdigest.com/
I'm not really looking for Auro 3D discs so much as trying to get a feel for which movies I'm better off watching at my local Cinemark XD theater to get an idea of how Auro 3D sounds at it's best. I was only interested in disc reviews to see if the reviewer thinks it's worth the fuss in a home theater setup.

As far as Blu-ray.com and HighDefDigest.com, I've already checked them both, but it seems to take them a while to review new releases. Plus they don't seem to be geared toward the theater versions at all.

Anyways, just like with 4K displays, I feel this is all just another tech that only early adopters whom can afford to experiment are interested in. IMO we won't really have fully usable UHD until ATSC 3 broadcasts are prevalent and these new audio formats are more worked out.

There is a 3rd but obscure source for reviews, or rather tests, on these new audio formats btw. There's a guy in Germany whom uploads scenes of various movies and he shows the same scenes each time with a different audio format, but playing only the height channels.

That way you can easily compare how each sounds, and it tends to vary quite a lot from movie to movie. I was impressed by the object based directional localization of Atmos, but as many have said, it tends to reflect high frequencies mostly when used with elevation speakers.

Auro 3D supports a fair amount of bass, but despite being channel dedicated, seems vaguely located with weather effects. If that's their secret sauce for their larger sweet spot claim, it's unfortunate.

DTS X is quite impressive considering it requires no extra speakers, and usually has a fair amount of sound from it, whereas Atmos and Auro 3D can sound very faint and muffled in some scenes.

It's been said that Dolby is leading the way so far with the most studios using Atmos over DTS X and Auro 3D, but since home theater is so prevalent anymore, I'm guessing this format war is not over yet.

As far as being "picky" MagnumX, no, that would be the guy that berates Auro 3D for lack of market share, yet decides to plunk down $200 for the license to run it on his AVR, but hasn't even evaluated it yet, while seemingly having already decided it's not worthwhile.

If I had a nickel for everyone on the net that contradicts himself in such ways I'd be a rich man. Word to the wise (or at least practical), maybe don't comment on a tech unless you take the time to actually sample it first hand after buying it. Otherwise it kinda comes off as meaningless trolling.

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post #5897 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post
As far as Blu-ray.com and HighDefDigest.com, I've already checked them both, but it seems to take them a while to review new releases. Plus they don't seem to be geared toward the theater versions at all.

Anyways, just like with 4K displays, I feel this is all just another tech that only early adopters whom can afford to experiment are interested in. IMO we won't really have fully usable UHD until ATSC 3 broadcasts are prevalent and these new audio formats are more worked out.
They do have prerelease reviews of Jurasic World Lost Kingdom up. I never saw it at the local IMAX so I'm kind of excited for the BluRay release this week. It's getting good reviews on the video and audio tech, the sound being done in DTS-X. I may just go ahead and pre-order the 4K disc.
I had to pay $199 to get Auro upgrade in my Marantz 7703. I knew I'd probably never get a Auro disc but I wanted to hear how AuroMatic upmixer compared to the Dolby and DTS options. IMHO it was a waste, AuroMatic does some very weird things to the soundstage of a stereo source. Oh well, in the big picture of our expensive HT systems, what's another $199? LOL

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post #5898 of 6354 Old 09-15-2018, 09:41 PM
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I'm not really looking for Auro 3D discs so much as trying to get a feel for which movies I'm better off watching at my local Cinemark XD theater to get an idea of how Auro 3D sounds at it's best. I was only interested in disc reviews to see if the reviewer thinks it's worth the fuss in a home theater setup.
You can't review a home version while it's still out at the theater. IF it comes out on disc, it's probably too late to hear it at the theater. As to whether it sounds its best or not, I think it's usually not hard to be a giant auditorium at home for "quality", but they do have sheer number of speakers. I personally like comedies at the theater because shared laughs are somehow funnier (I think that's why they used laugh tracks in the first place. I saw My Cousin Vinney at a packed theater and it was a riot compared to watching it at home, although it was still funny there too. I know some people hate laugh tracks, but I've gotten a lot of laughs listening to other people's reactions (when it's real audiences recorded and not some canned crap) to certain jokes, etc. I just remember this one lady practically squealing in the crowds on a Two and a Half Men episode and that was funnier than the joke itself).

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As far as Blu-ray.com and HighDefDigest.com, I've already checked them both, but it seems to take them a while to review new releases. Plus they don't seem to be geared toward the theater versions at all.
I used to go see everything at the theater back in the 1990s. I even saw The Matrix 17 times (a personal record by far) at the theater. But it's SO overpriced now that I can buy the disc for the price of two tickets (and then some in some cases). I usually just wait for the home release now. Now that I know there's an Auromax down the road from here, I'd like to see some movie in it to compare (even to an Atmos home release).

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Anyways, just like with 4K displays, I feel this is all just another tech that only early adopters whom can afford to experiment are interested in. IMO we won't really have fully usable UHD until ATSC 3 broadcasts are prevalent and these new audio formats are more worked out.
I don't know why you conclude that. Do you watch a lot of network TV? I ditched cable earlier this year and it was the best move I've EVER made. TV sucks anymore. I buy the few shows I want to see now. I got DirecTV Now to get a free AppleTV 4K, but I'm about to ditch it to as it's coming up to renew. I might get Philo. I might just say the hell on all of it. I couldn't care less about ATSC 3 or network TV in general. It's done. Everthing on TV now is a reboot...new Magnum PI. WTF was wrong with the original? Cagney & Lacey? Macgyver? WTF!?!? Reality TV. No thanks.

Quote:
There is a 3rd but obscure source for reviews, or rather tests, on these new audio formats btw. There's a guy in Germany whom uploads scenes of various movies and he shows the same scenes each time with a different audio format, but playing only the height channels.
Height channels only? Boy, I bet that's flipping exciting.

Quote:
That way you can easily compare how each sounds, and it tends to vary quite a lot from movie to movie. I was impressed by the object based directional localization of Atmos, but as many have said, it tends to reflect high frequencies mostly when used with elevation speakers.
I really don't think you can tell much by listening to just height channels. I mean do you not watch Infinity Wars because there's not much in the height channels?

Quote:
Auro 3D supports a fair amount of bass
I don't know WTF that even means. All the formats are capable of "handling bass". Don't confuse a format with a mix.

Quote:
but despite being channel dedicated, seems vaguely located with weather effects.
And you think that's Auro3D's fault somehow rather than the mixing guy? Again, Blade Runner sounded IDENTICAL in most scenes if I threw out the rear channels. If the mix is the same, the result is the same unless one is using a lot more speakers than the other one. In the the case of rear channels or wides or some of the in-between speakers that the Trinnov supports, yes, I think Atmos has an advantage right now. DTS should be able to do that too, but for some reason it was artificially limited on the home release. Whether they fix that in the future? I'm sure it doesn't matter to those with 11 channels or less, but for those that have more "true" channels, it has to be disappointing that DTS does nothing with those speakers.

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If that's their secret sauce for their larger sweet spot claim, it's unfortunate.
I don't recall seeing that particular claim. Again, if a home release uses the same mixing guy and the same speaker layout for playback, how different can it possibly sound? Something like bass content or clarity is a recording/mixing issue, not a format issue.

Quote:
DTS X is quite impressive considering it requires no extra speakers
I'd say just the opposite. DTS is quite underwhelming without any extra speakers.

Or did you mean Virtual X? I can't say I've heard that as my 7010 doesn't support it. It has a virtual mode, but it's pretty crappy sounding. Then again, if you have the speakers, there's no way Virtual X sounds better than the real thing.

Quote:
and usually has a fair amount of sound from it, whereas Atmos and Auro 3D can sound very faint and muffled in some scenes.
Faint and muffled? Are we still talking about listening to the height speakers only?

Quote:
It's been said that Dolby is leading the way so far with the most studios using Atmos over DTS X and Auro 3D, but since home theater is so prevalent anymore, I'm guessing this format war is not over yet.
I think DTS will carve out a niche because some studio like cheaper. I think if Atmos owns the streaming arena, it won't matter much what DTS does, really. I find it ironic that DTS is teaming up with IMAX who wants you to believe their stamp of approval means it's the very best when DTS X at home can't handle more than 11 speakers (plus subwoofers). How is that better than 22 speakers plus subs?

Quote:
As far as being "picky" MagnumX, no, that would be the guy that berates Auro 3D for lack of market share, yet decides to plunk down $200 for the license to run it on his AVR, but hasn't even evaluated it yet, while seemingly having already decided it's not worthwhile.
Haven't evaluated it? By that, you mean I haven't gotten around to watching all the movies I've purchased so far?

Sorry, but I only completed the system last week (Auro3D has been completed for over three weeks by comparison as I had the front heights and surround (side) heights installed months ago. I had to install the rear ceiling speakers (for Atmos/X to use the whole room) and then make a new middle height channel between the two for full coverage Atmos/X. I can still switch back to Auro3D with my selector box (swaps rear surround to side location at the push of a button and/or I can have both run at the same time).

I still have a lot of room treatments, etc. to do yet and some of my new furniture arrives Monday). I've got probably around 40 movies I bought I haven't watched yet, not counting movies I got that now have immersive sound (e.g. Harry Potter UHD box set with DTS X). I've certainly tested SOME Auro3D. Again, it's a FORMAT. What I CAN say is that it doesn't use rear speakers on my Marantz 7010 (save I set it to use rear heights, which are then misplaced relative to quadraphonic recordings and the expected imaging location relative to the mixing console. I can push a button on my speaker selector and move the rear height to the side height location, but I did discover that Auro does move the "VOG" location "back" if you use "rear height" for an actual physical location (makes sense; mixes front and rear together and if 'rear' is 'side/surround' instead it ends up in front of you instead of just behind you when it phantoms the channel).

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If I had a nickel for everyone on the net that contradicts himself in such ways I'd be a rich man.
Sorry, I must be dumb. I don't see how I've contradicted anything.

Quote:
Word to the wise (or at least practical), maybe don't comment on a tech unless you take the time to actually sample it first hand after buying it. Otherwise it kinda comes off as meaningless trolling.
A word to the wise, don't make false accusations when you don't know WTF you're talking about. Just because I haven't watched Johnny Mnemonic yet (which used two different mixing teams so it should sound at least 'different' between the mixes) doesn't mean I haven't sampled Auro3D yet.... (Jeebus).

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post #5899 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 12:04 AM
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They do have prerelease reviews of Jurasic World Lost Kingdom up. I never saw it at the local IMAX so I'm kind of excited for the BluRay release this week. It's getting good reviews on the video and audio tech, the sound being done in DTS-X. I may just go ahead and pre-order the 4K disc.
I had to pay $199 to get Auro upgrade in my Marantz 7703. I knew I'd probably never get a Auro disc but I wanted to hear how AuroMatic upmixer compared to the Dolby and DTS options. IMHO it was a waste, AuroMatic does some very weird things to the soundstage of a stereo source. Oh well, in the big picture of our expensive HT systems, what's another $199? LOL
Thanks, guess I have some more surfing to do on that site (assume you mean Blu-ray.com?). Yeah, I'm beginning to think Auro 3D is only good at theaters or trade shows with $300,000 worth of sound gear.

@MagnumX
To try and simplify, I'm just going to number reference your responses rather than quote.

1. Yes I'm well aware disc reviews aren't available until discs are available for purchase. I was referring to theater versions of Auro 3D on new releases.

2. We'll have to stay in touch on Auro 3D theater experiences. Just talked to a friend today that's interested in going with me, though he's in a wheelchair and the wheelchair spaces and companion spaces next to them are unfortunately not in the typical sweet spot. Despite Auro 3D's claim of a bigger sweet spot, I found it interesting the first several reserves for The Predator were in the middle of the theater.

3. Not sure how you can bash ALL network TV when DirecTV Now is known for freezing constantly. Last time I tried it, because they decided to give me another month free for not signing up, that problem had only gotten worse. I guess it depends where you are and how well it's supported though. I'm on the west coast and apparently it's better on the east coast, especially since AT&T owns DirecTV, and is mostly an east coast business.

Granted, the shows I've seen elsewhere than my apt that are NOT network TV are better, as they should be due to getting more revenue, like Better Call Saul, Westworld, Game of Thrones, etc, but I doubt I have the money or access you do. We only have access to one really crappy cable service where I live, and I've tried all the streaming services and they suck quite frankly.

Some of the network shows I can at least tolerate are, Designated Survivor, Lethal Weapon (not sure I'll like it with Seann), Shark Tank, Gotham, Masterchef and Masterchef Junior, Blindspot, Timeless, Last Man on Earth, and MacGyver. Of course during football season any game with one of our divisional teams, especially our once superbowl winning team, is of utmost priority. Then you have local news and crap that seems useless to some, but is missed by others when it's not there. And for the record, I tried a pretty decent 4K TV (49" Sony X900E), but the only broadcast that didn't have serious image quality flaws was Lucifer, and I don't even watch that show. Football games looked horrible. One of my pet peeves about UHD is they are hard selling VA due to it's higher contrast and brightness for HDR, but in bright scenes it looks way too washed out. The only thing that really looks good anymore is OLED, and to a lesser extent IPS, but OLED is too expensive and huge for my space, with at most 20,000 expected screen life, and IPS in sets that handle gaming well are going away in 40-43" size. The whole TV industry is becoming a rich man's world.

4. As far as I know he does front/rear height channels for Auro 3D and DTS X, and elevation for Atmos, though I've seen some say on YT that you can mount Atmos speakers high on wall near ceiling or ceiling for better sound. Near ceiling def depends on room size though. My living room is very small. The listening area is literally about 11' x 11'. Front/rear height is the only layout that supports all 3 audio formats on the same layout without complex switching from one to another though. The VOG channel is the only one that isn't totally necessary in these type formats, as it's mostly used for things like aircraft flying overhead. Plus some formats like Auro 3D can simulate VOG by combining all four height channels and approximating. I've also seen too many people hooking up their "elevation" speakers high on the wall near the ceiling in height config and reporting better results than the bouncing effect from atop floor speakers to think that there's any compromises to it.

5. This is all covered in response # 4.

6. Maybe you didn't pay attention to what I said earlier. I was specifically comparing Auro 3D to Atmos' elevation method of bouncing speaker top addon audio off the ceiling. Considering mounting to the ceiling is not cost effective enough or even possible for many (my apt ceiling has plaster over cinder block, and our apt manager won't allow it), ceiling bouncing was chosen by Dolby to be the mainstream way of implementing it. As has been said by many though, it tends to bounce mostly higher frequency audio, because those are the frequencies that reflect better. That said, I only used the word "height" to try and summarize all the higher object and channel based audio from these formats in one word, and I'm not sure there even IS a universally accepted word for that.

7. Not really sure who's fault it is, just mentioning what I noticed from Auro 3D via a home theater test, and it was mostly likely done by Auromatic, not the studio. If it were to happen in a theater though, I would think it would be Auro's fault. Even in HT gear, I recall in the day of THX, each manufacturer had to pass their standards test to get the licensing. Granted, many claimed it was just a gimmick, and anyone on their own could make their products sound just as good (if not better) but there was a process to it for the sake of quality assurance. Auro 3D don't appear to go that far. They charge a hefty licensing fee, yet from reports I'm hearing, there's no real standard on sound quality from one movie to another. I guess Lucas had more clout and diligence with THX. One thing that helped I suppose is he didn't have to hard sell it. Then again, Auro 3D via Auromatic is just a considerably downsized version for compatibility sake, piggy backed onto DTS HD. THAT, more than the scant number of movies carrying it in the theater, may be it's Achilles heel.

8. Not surprising since you said you bought the license but haven't even tested it it on your HT yet, or even been to your local theater that has an XD auditorium. I tend to do that kind of stuff well BEFORE I spend any money on the HT gear for it. (OK, take that with a grain of salt, as you have since clarified). LOL

At about the 8:00 mark they start talking about the sweet spot, but you may want to watch the whole thing, as it's pretty interesting.

9. I may have misunderstood, but I thought most were using DTS X via no added speakers. As with anything virtual vs real though, yeah, with speakers would be better. Just saying what I heard from his test, the DTS X sounded pretty good (comparatively), so I guess if it's virtual sucks he must have had speakers for it then.

10. I'll have to post a comment on his vid, but I assume he was using elevation for Atmos (due to higher frequencies mostly), and height on Auro. He's German but hopefully speaks English.

11. Clearly Dolby is the most aggressive at seeking market share, in the US anyway. They are also the only ones seeking game support with both Atmos on speakers and headphones. Quite frankly I'd buy Atmos for headphones in a heartbeat for $15, but I only have 4 of the 9 games it supports. BTW, if you think I'm young just because I game, I'm not, I'm 60. LOL

12. Sorry, sounded like from what you said you hadn't even tried it yet. I guess maybe you're waiting until you experience a lot of movies and get it dialed in just right so you can give a comprehensive review on it. If so, I'll definitely check that out.

Points taken on last two responses, again, it sounded like you'd not even tried it yet from what you said earlier. You DO sound "picky" though, and I mean that in a good way. That's what I meant by contradicting btw, as you called me picky. I'd say if anything you are WAY more off the deep end on getting intricately involved in this stuff than me.

And yeah, same as what I'd seen others say on how Auro 3D works the front/rear height channels to make the phantom VOG. If it does that well enough I see no need for a VOG speaker. I also like the idea of height vs ceiling due to what I said earlier about my limitations. Plus I think realistically even most home owners don't have the money or desire to clutter or modify their ceilings. I fully understand height only probably only works well in smaller living rooms though. I guess that's the one area we poor folk have a slight advantage, IF you can call it that. More like simplicity really.

For that reason alone, I assume my current location might be more DTS X (not virtual) and Auro 3D Auromatic appealing than Atmos, since I could only use bounce vs in ceiling speakers for Atmos. However I HAVE seen some on YouTube say they get better results with Atmos placing even addon (bounce) speakers high on the wall, vs on top of floor standing speakers. I'm talking mostly Klipsch and SVS Prime speakers. So if you can manage to test out such a comparison, I'd definitely be interested in your results. One of the benefits of that too is if you put all three formats in a front/rear height config, they are easily switchable from one to the other.

And for the record, Auro may only have 17 so far on Blu-ray, but they've got like 154 current and upcoming theater films they've supported, so the studio support is there. It just takes a bit longer to mass market it to HT. One of their main problems is lack of AVR support, just two brands, and only the more expensive models, plus a whopping $200 for consumers to even try it. Really hard to compete against DTS X and Atmos when you can get many brands of AVRs that support those formats for WAY less money. They're going to have to be more realistic if they expect to sell it on HT gear. For one, they're charging WAY too much for the consumer license.
https://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/movies/

Last edited by Hi Def Fan; 09-16-2018 at 01:22 AM.
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post #5900 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 02:29 AM
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I must admit to having seen ("heard") only one movie in Auro3D theatrically (Mockingjay - Part 1)--either the movie mix or the theater config (or both!) were so poorly done that I wrote a complaint letter to the theater chain.

However, I plan to upgrade my home office system with a Denon X4500 in early 2019, and I suspect I'll be unable to resist buying one of the 2L audio-only BDs with both Atmos and Auro3D tracks mixed from the same recording session, just as soon as the AV system is up and running again! For example, http://www.2l.no/pages/album/146.html

_
That disc would certainly allow for some really interesting direct switching comparisons.

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post #5901 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 04:27 AM
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That disc would certainly allow for some really interesting direct switching comparisons.

Attachment 2455822
Most newer discs from 2L has that setup

Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #5902 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 04:40 AM
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Bought it! But ... 2 weeks to get it!
Regards
Alessandro
Thanks for the hint, guys!

Marantz Sr7011, Galactron Mk10b, Pioneer VsxLx50. Klipsch Cornwall, Wharfedale 9.1, Klipsch CP-6. Sony UbpX800, Lg Up970, Hisense 55M5500. 110 inches rolling screen, excelvan cl720d.
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post #5903 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 05:16 AM
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I've only had DirecTV Now freeze once or twice, but I only got it for the free AppleTV. I got rid of cable precisely because I do NOT watch it, especially enough to warrant $123 a month over just phone and internet. Most of the shows you mentioned are reboots. I saw the originals already. Between Prime and Netflix and 40+ movies yet to watch, I'm good for now.

I think you're overthinking the format thing. Auro recently caved on the "enabled" support for the same reason they did rear height when they designed around side height. Zero adoption rate if you aren't compatible with Atmos. They will likely cave yet again for other speaker locations, not because they sound ok, but because if no one uses your system you disappear. It's hard to stand on principles when you're starving.

Yes, Auro has plenty of theater mixes and despite what some articles might suggest, Auro has a healthy number of theaters using their system. But that unfortunately has no bearing on home releases at all. Why? Firstly, they make totally separate mixes for the home (that marketing BS from DTS and Dolby lossless being identical to the studio master doesn't mean the theater! Identical to the home version master doesn't have a very good ring to it, though so they let you believe whatever you want. This means just because there's a theatrical mix, that doesn't mean there will ever be a home mix.

Getting the studios to support you on home releases when there's really only room for one immersive mix is tough. They'd be pissing in the cornflakes of Atmos users that outnumber Auro by leaps and bounds. Not gonna happen unless you're crafty. DTS got traction by offering a cheap mixing plugin to Pro Tools that an master for Atmos too since they can use the same layout. They don't apparently charge as much in general which leaves more profit for the studio than greedy Dolby. This got the attention of a couple of studios like Universal that have switched alliances. After all, over 90% of the AVRs now support DTS so the consumer mostly won't notice or care.

Auro uses an incompatible layout, but it's really not as incompatible in a home layout as you might think due to lower ceilings at home, IMO and they would do better to say it's layout agnostic even if it's really not (like DTS does.) Marketing is FAR more important than actual results as the mass popularity of Bose clearly shows. It's close enough with lower ceilings that Atmos sounds fine with its speaker locations and vice versa with 8 foot ceilings, IMO, especially if you play Atmos over Auro's "height" locations. Auro should support top middle. That would help on the high end layouts. They could just put in a disclaimer about a 9' ceiling limit or something for optimal playback. Above that, the differences of the layouts will start to really show, IMO. But all the press makes it sound like they don't play nice at all and in my experience that's BS in a typical home environment. Atmos usually sounds like crap on enabled speakers, but as long as the press repeats their marketing BS, you'd never guess it reading the reviews. Auro has been a bit too honest for their own good.

I think Auro also underestimated the importance of rear speakers. Most home systems may only be 5.1, but you don't aspire low on purpose. It's utterly ridiculous when an 11 channel receiver isn't using rear surrounds, but suggests you connect a dedicated "VOG" speaker that is easily simulated with low ceilings in a home environment using the heights. I can't simulate rear speakers.... It should have had rear speakers from the start. This is making them irrelevant when only a $4K+ receiver gets any rear surrounds while a lowly $300 AVR has them and 7.1 systems have been around for a decade.

Auro3D was first to market. They should be king, but like the Commodore Amiga, a lack of good marketing and clout in professional circles along with a few missteps here and there did them in. They were first and yet most consumers have never heard of them. You see "XD" at Cinemark not "Auro3D" advertised. The XD name is better known. Everyone heard of THX because they ran those cool trailers all the time. Auro should have insisted on one of their own be used at Cinemark. Nope. They've never made a single one as far as I know. No name recognition, no clout.
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post #5904 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 09:08 AM
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Auro3D was first to market. They should be king, but like the Commodore Amiga, a lack of good marketing and clout in professional circles along with a few missteps here and there did them in. They were first and yet most consumers have never heard of them. You see "XD" at Cinemark not "Auro3D" advertised. The XD name is better known. Everyone heard of THX because they ran those cool trailers all the time. Auro should have insisted on one of their own be used at Cinemark. Nope. They've never made a single one as far as I know. No name recognition, no clout.
Auro should have cut the deal for the IMAX Enhanced marketing ploy. That might have pulled them out of obscurity.

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post #5905 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 09:52 AM
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Auro should have cut the deal for the IMAX Enhanced marketing ploy. That might have pulled them out of obscurity.
Their obscurity likely would have prevented such a deal. Why would IMAX partner with a company that cannot get a single movie title released on Blu-ray in the US market?
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post #5906 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 10:45 AM
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Auro should have cut the deal for the IMAX Enhanced marketing ploy. That might have pulled them out of obscurity.
Their obscurity likely would have prevented such a deal. Why would IMAX partner with a company that cannot get a single movie title released on Blu-ray in the US market?

They're only obscure in the home market (so is IMAX for that matter with ZERO home penetration up until now, even less than Auro...and they keep telling me here you're a genius....).

There's dozens, if not hundreds of Auro and Auromax theaters in the USA (didn't feel like counting them all on Auro's map locator and that doesn't include them all as it's 11.1 and mine is Auromax). The Auromax theater is 2 miles from my house and I live in Ohio of all places and there are three to four more Auro theaters less than 60 miles away.

On the contrary, just try and find an Atmos theater here. Outside the three largest cities, they're nowhere to be found. Every Cinemark around here has Auro3D and some of the Regals as well. If they had Auro3D trailers like THX had, everyone around here would recognize the name.

As I've already indicated, Auro has largely dug their own grave for the home market by not being better at self promotion and deal making. If they had gotten Yamaha and Onkyo on board and given out Auro licensing for very low cost or free early on, things might look a little different. The sudden introduction of UHD is not helping them either along with the speaker layouts being in "apparent" conflict with Atmos even though with low ceilings, the differences are largely moot in a home environment (good luck getting either to admit it).

An Imax deal could have been the perfect time to address either the rear channel situation or add Auromax to the home format in a backwards compatible method (most channels still channel based). Imax's layout has some things in common with Auro's layout DTS and Atmos do not (screen height channels).

Frankly, I think Auro should have teamed up with DTS early on. They have more in common than Atmos and the combined format could have been DTS's gateway to theaters and Auro's penetration into the home market. It's a bit late for that now, though. DTS is making its own theater inroads once again (Regal is adding DTS X to some theaters and they're also around here.).
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post #5907 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 12:09 PM
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I guess I'd be a little clearer about what it means for one of the immersive home theater audio technologies to be definable as "successful" if I knew just how many US households own either an ATMOS/ DTS:X capable AVR plus actually have installed 5.x.2, 5.x.4, 7.x.2, 7.x.4 (or better!) speakers, or an ATMOS/ DTS:X decode+reproduce3D soundbar. Just buying a BD to watch on a tv with Dolby Surround 2.0 sound playback through the tv speakers doesn't tell us much about the consumer's preferences for individual immersive audio technologies...?!

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post #5908 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 02:04 PM
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Frankly, I think Auro should have teamed up with DTS early on. They have more in common than Atmos and the combined format could have been DTS's gateway to theaters and Auro's penetration into the home market. It's a bit late for that now, though. DTS is making its own theater inroads once again (Regal is adding DTS X to some theaters and they're also around here.).
They're far too stubborn for that. Like they said in that interview video I posted, they're "In it to win it". Unfortunately just as you said, they have no marketing sense to know how to do that. I get the feeling they thought their popularity in Europe and their partnership with Barco and all the Cinemark theaters would get them a substantial foothold in the US, but even the feedback from a lot of customers on the "XD" audio experience has been somewhat inconsistent at best, and underwhelming for those whom notice truly audiophile grade sound. I also agree they should have used the Auro 3D designation rather than XD. My first reaction to XD was "So what the hell is that?"

And yeah, they really pushed the marketing of THX , but it also didn't hurt to have Lucas' name behind it, especially with the huge success of Star Wars. Movie goers are always suckers for heroes, and Lucas has been one of the biggest in the theater realm.

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post #5909 of 6354 Old 09-16-2018, 06:32 PM
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I just read some industry forum opinions from two years ago speculating, etc. It was interesting to see what guys who work for some of these companies that set up or own theaters think.

I'd have to say their opinions varied, but most didn't seem to think too highly of limited channel immersive (i.e. Go big or go home) 16-channel DTS was being sold early as a cheaper upgrade than Atmos to existing 7.1 theaters and most seemed to think they couldn't hear any significant difference in that type of setup from 7.1 (why bother, especially when PCM is expandable to 16 channel without objects or buying DTS.

They also seemed to prefer more screen speakers over surround if channels are limited since that is where the movie is. One guy bemoaned the lack of panned dialogue and wished they would make vertical and horizontal dialogue panning a priority (I liked that guy ).

Several that did like Atmos indicated their distaste for many of the Atmos soundtracks being rushed out, saying they couldn't really tell it was Atmos at all it was mixed so weak, but they figured it was probably due to lack of time as the mix is the last thing done on a movie and they want it done instantly, defeating the point of the whole system. Might as well stick with 5.1/7.1 and save 100 grand.

One was really impressed with the Jungle Book soundtrack in Atmos, though, especially some bit with the snake moving across the ceiling. But then someone pointed out how much better Age of Ultron was in 12-channel IMAX than Atmos and someone pointed out Disney seemed to be screwing up their soundtracks even then.

One guy specifically said he didn't like Auro 11.1 specifically due to the lack of rear surrounds. He seemed to think rear surrounds are more important than height channels given how poorly we hear height effects (especially when 7.1 already has surround effects all overhead in a theater). Do people really notice or care a car is at a different height in a theater? Unlike at home, they're both well overhead regardless.

Anyway, that's what I got out of the discussion anyway. I have to say I get what they're saying. For the heck of it, I ran the Atmos, X and Auro demos on my Carvers with only 4-channels and sonic holography. It was kind of shocking how close they came despite the lack of heights or rear surrounds. The Carvers already image high (they're six feet tall with 4 foot ribbons). Obviously there were differences, but it's the fact those demos were designed to really show off the effects that makes it so disconcerting that it wasn't far greater than it was. How much less would you notice in an actual movie, especially if you're not sitting there listening for height effects, etc.?

What I notice constantly by comparison is the lack of dialogue tracking. None of that is addressed by immersive. Better luck next time (if cinemas are still around by then as kids ignore all life duties and live on their Facebook page and phones and video games). I think if society offered The Matrix to escape ordinary life, many of the next generation would take it.
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post #5910 of 6354 Old 09-17-2018, 03:55 PM
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Yeah I would think dialog panning would be just as important (more so in fact) than locating effects in the screen, especially since most movies have lots of dialog. I'm not even sure how screen speakers work. Apparently theater screens must be acoustically transparent now?
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