The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 201 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6001 of 6397 Old 11-01-2018, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You can check the Auro-Matic patent to see for yourself whether it does that: https://patentimages.storage.googlea.../US9100767.pdf
Thanks for that link. That settles it for me: According to that patent AuroMatic does NOT use ambiance extractions from the original recording.

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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
This is what he told me. Auromatic will create content for the HC by "deleting" most of the volcals and putting the rest to the HC speaker.
So we can conclude now that according to the patent description this is NOT how AuroMatic works (unfortunately IMHO).
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post #6002 of 6397 Old 11-04-2018, 11:10 AM
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What is the best way to search for Auro-3D content in the US? I’m talking region 1 or region free. I’d rather not have to mod my oppo (for fear of rendering my oppo unusable) to play region b/2 or whatever the European region bd players have. So far I’ve only really been able to find Pixels as region free.

Surely there is more content available, if not, I don’t see any warrant for the expense of adding the VOG channel to go from 9.1 to 10.1.

Also, I thought auro was going to support Xbox one game titles, but maybe I misread the 2017 announcement. If not, it’s sad to h3ar as I have really enjoyed my Atmos gaming on the Xbox and would gladly add the VOG for gaming alone.

I’m looking for movies, games, audio titles.

Is there a “list” anywhere on the forum? I tried to look for it but did not find one. If not maybe we could start a sticky on the 1st page for auro 3D supported titles with regions supported and locations where it can be purchased.

Thanks,

Mike
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post #6003 of 6397 Old 11-04-2018, 01:29 PM
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There's a list in this very thread if you go back a dozen or so pages (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56673452). Most of them are region free (Inferno here says Region B,C, but I rip/encode for KODI to play off a hard drive (so much better than looking for discs and I can use them all around the house in several rooms) so it doesn't matter to me whether it works in the LG player I have or not). You have to buy them from overseas, though, but that's pretty easy given most are available on Amazon sites (i.e. to use Amazon Germany, for example you just login with your US account and it moves everything over to order from there automatically; same for UK, France, etc. Only a few sites like Amazon Japan do not). I've found getting some 3D movies are cheaper from the UK even with shipping than from the US when available here (due to strong dollar, etc.)

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6004 of 6397 Old 11-04-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
There's a list in this very thread if you go back a dozen or so pages (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56673452). Most of them are region free (Inferno here says Region B,C, but I rip/encode for KODI to play off a hard drive (so much better than looking for discs and I can use them all around the house in several rooms) so it doesn't matter to me whether it works in the LG player I have or not). You have to buy them from overseas, though, but that's pretty easy given most are available on Amazon sites (i.e. to use Amazon Germany, for example you just login with your US account and it moves everything over to order from there automatically; same for UK, France, etc. Only a few sites like Amazon Japan do not). I've found getting some 3D movies are cheaper from the UK even with shipping than from the US when available here (due to strong dollar, etc.)
For music there is this list: https://surround-sound.info/3d-sound...l&alle&1&3&0&1

Plus the Auro 3d Auromatic upmixer seems to make good use of the VOG channel I get sound up there all the time so the VOG channel does not have to be encoded into the mix to get use out of it. I have to climb a ladder to get my head near them to discern what is coming out of them but that is the way it should be.
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post #6005 of 6397 Old 11-04-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tingham View Post
Thanks for this. That's a bummer that the 4400 and 4500 do not support back surround with native Auro 3D. Like I stated earlier in another thread the Auromatic 3d upmixing is working for me in my 7.1.2 setup and I was hoping that native or upmixed Auro 3D would work for me as I plan to add 2 more channels in the future. Whats an even more bummer is that it won't upmix at all to back surrounds if I have 7.1.4 setup selected.

Oh well. Thanks again for all your work on this.
You can do what I did and up mix your own; I up mixed using CS-3XJr's to create the matrixed channels but those are no longer available, see my old thread ( need to re-upload the images) https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...und-sound.html

You can just use a 5.1 receiver and run the side surround analog outs from your main receiver to the main right and left analog in on the 5.1 receiver then set the receiver to your preferred 5.1 format i.e Dobly, DTS etc. and use the surround outs as your rears. I would use two 5.1 receivers and do the same thing with the rear heights to create back heights.

Without question adding rear surround and back heights made the most noticeable difference in my Auro3d setup.
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post #6006 of 6397 Old 11-06-2018, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Socio View Post
You can do what I did and up mix your own; I up mixed using CS-3XJr's to create the matrixed channels but those are no longer available, see my old thread ( need to re-upload the images) https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...und-sound.html

You can just use a 5.1 receiver and run the side surround analog outs from your main receiver to the main right and left analog in on the 5.1 receiver then set the receiver to your preferred 5.1 format i.e Dobly, DTS etc. and use the surround outs as your rears. I would use two 5.1 receivers and do the same thing with the rear heights to create back heights.

Without question adding rear surround and back heights made the most noticeable difference in my Auro3d setup.
Thanks alot for this Socio! Really appreciate the response. I have the extra receiver so when I get my room completely set up I'll utilize your method.

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post #6007 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 02:55 PM
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Hi, I've been reading some, but not all, of this (long) thread. Im intrigued by Auro 3D and would like to wire my basement up for it before the drywall goes up. What receiver would allow me to do Auro using 5 base layer, 4 elevation, and one VOG? Is that called Auro 10.1? I plan to use 2 subwoofers. The plan is to have a speaker arrangement to use both Auro and Atmos interchangeably.
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post #6008 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Cla55clown View Post
Hi, I've been reading some, but not all, of this (long) thread. Im intrigued by Auro 3D and would like to wire my basement up for it before the drywall goes up. What receiver would allow me to do Auro using 5 base layer, 4 elevation, and one VOG? Is that called Auro 10.1? I plan to use 2 subwoofers. The plan is to have a speaker arrangement to use both Auro and Atmos interchangeably.
The Denon 4400H and Marantz 7012 are on sale right now at most retailers. Either will do the job. The newer versions (4500H and 7013) also will as will some older used models (if they have the upgrade). Note both of those lines need an extra amp to fully do 10.1 Auro-3D. The Denon 6400H and Marantz 8012 have 11-channel amplification already built-in (no extra amp needed). If you really want to max out Auro-3D, the Denon 8500H can do Auro 13.1 as well as 7.1.6 OR 9.1.4 Atmos.

Keep in mind the VOG channel comes from sub2 on the 4400/7012 lines so you can't have separate Audyssey settings for 2 subs if you use the VOG channel (there are external options or you can tie them together as one sub). I'm not familiar with the 6400 and 8012 specifics, but seeing as they have enough amp channels, it doesn't seem like that would be an issue there (haven't looked at their manuals).

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post #6009 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 05:09 PM
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Keep in mind the VOG channel comes from sub2 on the 4400/7012 lines so you can't have separate Audyssey settings for 2 subs if you use the VOG channel (there are external options or you can tie them together as one sub). I'm not familiar with the 6400 and 8012 specifics, but seeing as they have enough amp channels, it doesn't seem like that would be an issue there (haven't looked at their manuals).
Yes that is a disappointment I ran into with my Marantz AV7703 pre/pro. I was considering adding a VOG speaker till I learned I would have to forgo the Audyssey separate configurations of my 2 subs.

Like I said, disappointing.

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post #6010 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 05:13 PM
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Yes that is a disappointment I ran into with my Marantz AV7703 pre/pro. I was considering adding a VOG speaker till I learned I would have to forgo the Audyssey separate configurations of my 2 subs.

Like I said, disappointing.
As if adding one more RCA jack would have cost a fortune to add to the design....
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post #6011 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 05:21 PM
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As if adding one more RCA jack would have cost a fortune to add to the design....
Yes, besides wanting Atmos and DTS-X, all the extra capabilities of the latest Audyssey, dual sub eq, Editor app, etc; where the driving force of my upgrade from a AV7701 pre/pre.

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post #6012 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 05:48 PM
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Thanks alot for this Socio! Really appreciate the response. I have the extra receiver so when I get my room completely set up I'll utilize your method.
My pleasure, it should make a noticeable difference.
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post #6013 of 6397 Old 11-07-2018, 07:28 PM
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Yes, besides wanting Atmos and DTS-X, all the extra capabilities of the latest Audyssey, dual sub eq, Editor app, etc; where the driving force of my upgrade from a AV7701 pre/pre.
Well, given I just had to go beyond 7.1.4, I can't use Audyssey to its full effect either. I can either average the response between FH+TM+RH or leave TM out completely (same for front wide; it's the exact same speaker as L/R so maybe an average wouldn't be terrible; maybe it would. Or I can just leave room correction off completely. It was either that or buy 4 more AVRs and try to find somewhere to put them (no way in my rack space) or buy the 8500 and TWO AVRs (if I still want dialog height) and find that DTS still doesn't work with Top Middle and Front Wide (Yay for crappy compromises!)

I can use YPAO on the front wides, but the top middles are powered by Onkyo stand-alone processors without correction options so options are limited there (can't insert a mini-dsp or anything). Hmmm, I've actually got an idea. I could disconnect the front/rear heights and let the Marantz basically correct the top middle signal and then since the front/rear heights are passed to the Yamaha after that point, I could use YPAO to correct the front/rear heights from the other correction changes. Yeah, that might work reasonably well (not as well as Audyssey for everything, but perhaps better than no EQ at all). They all use the same drivers so they won't be night and day off.

Given all my speakers have the same or very similar drivers (more or less), I'm thinking about conventional room treatments either way. The problem is they're a bit more unpredictable and just reading a thread on here on acoustic treatments can give you a migraine (with all the know-it-alls arguing about "too dead rooms" and "measure this and measure that", god it's a nightmare, never mind what your room LOOKS like when you're done (too bad if you want "classy"; there's nothing like foam tiles plastered on the walls to really make it look cool!) Actually, most of my speakers sound very similar with pink noise (my unofficial measurement method) save the bipolar S50s which seem to come out a bit different and the back X1T in the corner which is a bit bass heavier. The S50s are the real problem since they're two of the four non-Audyssey speakers (worst possible ones to sound different). Of course that's with pink noise. With actual sounds (even the Atmos helicopter panning around the room), hell, I can't tell the difference. The only "room" problem I hear is a bit of echo at the very front. I put up one medium tapestry on just one wall there and the echo just disappeared. It's a miracle.

I'm thinking about drapes in the long run across the front half the room, though since that would give it a more movie theater appearance and dull down the side wall reflections at the same time (I've also been looking at foam tiles, which would darken the walls without painting them, but I'm not sure how good that would actually look; drapes would look better, I think). The rear of the room is already taken care of with heavy drapes across the center back and the back of the room is very non-symmetrical with different surfaces (brick wall, fireplace, half bath, curtains, etc. and the front wall on the sides are bookcases loaded with BDs and books and behind the drop-down screen are more heavy black-out curtains (as there's a window behind it). There's already heavy carpet on the floor. Really, medium drapes along the front sides (as much for darkening the looks of the side walls as sound) and maybe a couple of bass traps in two of the back corners and I think it would be a pretty good mix (already sounds pretty good with NONE of that added with real material). From there, it'd be a matter of seeing how well Audyssey + YPAO could even it out further.

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post #6014 of 6397 Old 11-08-2018, 03:07 PM
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I need some advice on an Auro 3D receiver that can do a 7.1 base layer with 5 height speakers? (FHL, FHR, RHL, RHR, VOG).

I don't mind using a seperate amplifier to get the amount of channels required, I just do NOT want that amplifier wasted on the height channels if I can avoid it, ideally, I want the seperate amplifier on my front left and right, or front left/center/right, or front left/right/VOG, I would like to get a nice power matched tube amp for this purpose as half my music listening happens in stereo.

I have heard from one AVS forum member who has a denon 4300H powering his side surrounds, rear surrounds and four atmos overhead speakers with a seperate outlaw amp powering his front Left Center and Right, but he does not mention anything about auro 3d or a VOG channel? So it appears it is possible to use all 4 powered height channel amp outputs at once on these denons/marantz IF you separately amp the front L/R to clear up 2 powered channels? (although I cant find any mention of this in ANY of the manuals for ANY of these denon/marantz units?). Is this possible on all of the auro3d capable denon/marantz units?

I have ALSO read that it is possible to send the VOG channel to the powered surround back LEFT amp output on the X6300H read quote: "- Auro 3D (X6300H only) - able to use the Surround Back L on board amp to power the VOG/Top Surround speaker instead of using Subwoofer pre-out 2 to an external amp" this was an older thread and there are no mentions about this on the later 2017 and 2018 models? are any other models able to do this?

Ideally what I want is a seperate power matched tube amp powering my front Left and Right channels, and the AVR powering a 7.1 base layer with front and rear heights, and a top center voice of god speaker (the universal auro 3d/atmos layout). I can power the VOG separately if I must but I don't necessarily like the idea.

What is the cheapest way to accomplish this? I am not uber wealthy. Is this asking too much of the currently available receivers? I've considered just giving up on this dream and using a 5 channel amplifier to power all of the height channels (FHL, FHR, RHL, RHR, VOG) but I like the setup mentioned here better.

I am planning to do the universal 7.1 atmos/auro 3d speaker placement layout with a 7.1 base layer, in-ceiling speakers at a wider 33* angle configured to play "front height" and "rear height" auro 3d signals and two 4 ohm speakers wired to a single amplified output placed in the atmos top middle position and configured to play the "voice of god" signal, that way I can always separately wire/unwire the two top middles again if I ever want to switch to a 7.1.6 atmos setup and ditch auro3d, and everything will still be close to 'ideal'. Yes the VOG will have a 'wider' soundstage/image and the front/rear heights will be a touch higher and closer to the MLP being that I'm using in-ceiling speakers but I gain alot in flexibility this way and lose very little in SQ. Thoughts?

Thank You all so much for your help,
Gary M.
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post #6015 of 6397 Old 11-08-2018, 09:01 PM
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I don't think any 11-channel D&M AVR has a powered VOG channel even if you don't use all the other channels. I think it purely is offered as a pre-amp channel through the subwoofer 2 output. I use my old Yamaha 7.1 AVR with 7CH input mode as a second amp and I have the extra "center" channel input leftover that I can drive the VOG channel with that (just have to add the speaker and it's ready to go; I already wired the RCA link). I use front & rear height to the Yamaha because I want a "dialog lift" effect for the front height channels and D&M doesn't allow just front height to be externally powered (rear must go too or front mains). I use the other two channels to power front wides.

So, you could do a 7.1 (or even 5.1) AVR for amplification and run mains and VOG only if you wanted to (and still have channels left to add matrixed front wides or an array set duplicate of something). But then you said you wanted a tube amp. So.... that leaves you with an amp still needed for VOG if you want to use that speaker.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6016 of 6397 Old 11-08-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I don't think any 11-channel D&M AVR has a powered VOG channel even if you don't use all the other channels. I think it purely is offered as a pre-amp channel through the subwoofer 2 output. I use my old Yamaha 7.1 AVR with 7CH input mode as a second amp and I have the extra "center" channel input leftover that I can drive the VOG channel with that (just have to add the speaker and it's ready to go; I already wired the RCA link). I use front & rear height to the Yamaha because I want a "dialog lift" effect for the front height channels and D&M doesn't allow just front height to be externally powered (rear must go too or front mains). I use the other two channels to power front wides.

So, you could do a 7.1 (or even 5.1) AVR for amplification and run mains and VOG only if you wanted to (and still have channels left to add matrixed front wides or an array set duplicate of something). But then you said you wanted a tube amp. So.... that leaves you with an amp still needed for VOG if you want to use that speaker.
Thank You so much for the reply!

It sounds like my best bet in that case (to keep things simple) would be to just power all of the auro3d height channels on a second/separate AVR or amp if I'm always going to need an amp for the VOG channel anyway?...

I have an existing onkyo TX-NR809 7.1 AVR I could use to power the 5 height speakers (run the pre-amp outputs from the denon's height 1 L/R to the front L/R blueray input on the onkyo, and the denons height 2 L/R pre amp output to the onkyo's rear surround L/R blueray inputs, and the Subwoofer 2 VOG pre-amp output to the center channel blueray input on the onkyo, then just always set the onkyo to the blueray input mode. Would I set the onkyo into "direct" or "pure audio" mode in this case? what mode would be best? it's a bummer there isnt a way to get the audio channels from the denon to the onkyo via hdmi or less cables? In this case, I would have 2 free amplified channels left over on the main denon 9.1 receiver and 2 free amplified channels on the onkyo 7.1 receiver left over unused... is there something cool/useful I could do with these unused amplified channels?

How does audysey calibration work when you have a second separate AVR for the height channels? where would I set the volume knob on the onkyo to make sure they always stay volume matched? would I set the onkyo's volume knob at 'reference level' and then audysey on the primary denon can adjust the volume of the pre-amp outputs to match?
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post #6017 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by garymaurizi View Post
I have ALSO read that it is possible to send the VOG channel to the powered surround back LEFT amp output on the X6300H read quote: "- Auro 3D (X6300H only) - able to use the Surround Back L on board amp to power the VOG/Top Surround speaker instead of using Subwoofer pre-out 2 to an external amp" this was an older thread and there are no mentions about this on the later 2017 and 2018 models? are any other models able to do this?
Correct. As noted in post 1 of each of the 2016/2017/2018 Denon AVR Owner's threads, the 11CH models (ie. X6300H, X6400H, X6500H) are all able to use the powered SBL speaker post to power the VOG speaker. This also applies to the Marantz SR8012 (11CH) as well.

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post #6018 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Correct. As noted in post 1 of each of the 2016/2017/2018 Denon AVR Owner's threads, the 11CH models (ie. X6300H, X6400H, X6500H) are all able to use the powered SBL speaker post to power the VOG speaker. This also applies to the Marantz SR8012 (11CH) as well.
Thank You so much jdsmoothie for the reply. Everyone keeps saying to contact you before I buy a refurb unit, expect a PM after I figure out what receiver I am going to upgrade to! I have one more question:

the denon avrx7200wa has 9 amped channels and 11.2 pre-amp section, on the amp section height 2 and front wide are bi-amped(assignable so you have to pick to power one or the other) and it appears like it would be possible to use Front L/C/R, Surround L/R, Surround Back L/R, Height 1 L/R on the powered amp output and then use height 2 L/R and Front Wide L/R and subwoofer 2 'VOG' (after auro-3D upgrade) on the pre-amp output (amped with a separate amp) all at the same time to get a 9.2 base layer with 4 height channels and a TS/VOG? E.g the wides and height 2's are separate on the pre-amp but tied on the amped output (in other words 7.1 bed layer+height 1 L/R from the powered amp outputs plus front wides, height 2 and VOG/TS from the pre-amp outputs)? In other words 14 channels going at once in this configuration on this specific receiver model only?

Why does this seem somehow wrong? because from all my research none of the later 11 channel flagships can do this? none of the later 11 channel flagships have front wides and height 2 separated on the pre-amp section? what am I missing? The hardware is there? and if I am correct about this, will the front-wides only get used when the amp is set to audyssey DSX or some non-atmos/DTS mode on this unit? or will the wides always be used like a normal 9.2 configuration?

I'm just trying to figure out the cheapest path to get to 7.2.4+VOG, but more specifically, I don't want the standard 7.2.4 with side heights, I want 7.2.4 with front and rear heights+VOG so it can work for both auro-3D and atmos without moving any speakers... (I already own a perfectly good 7.1 AVR I can repurpose to add amplifier channels or sell off to use towards a better receiver). Any further suggestions?

I'm trying to read through the speaker placement section of every 9.1/11.1 model manual from 2016-2017-2018 but they specifically avoid the topic of a 7.1 setup with front and rear heights+vog in ALL of the manuals except for the latest flagship X8500H... they only cover 5.1 bed layers with front and rear heights+vog for some reason?

Thank You all so much for your help,

I am having a really hard time getting definitive answers about this setup so any kind of help is very much appreciated.
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post #6019 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 06:31 AM
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You'd use 7CH in mode on the Onkyo if it has one. You can't use regular inputs and just use amp channels for just anything since it always runs a decode mode. 7ch in normally is just a straight pass through mode save perhaps speaker delays.

No model does 14 out. They have speaker switching built in. In other words, older AVRs (and the 8500H) nay have dedicated front side speaker terminals (or they may share them with "height") but that doesn't mean it can drive wides + 4 heights (the 8500 can since it has 13 channels, but it can also do 6 heights instead including Auro VOG and center height + front /rear heights (instead of Atmos top middle) and DTS's neural x supports those, but DTS has an 11 channel limit so you'd have to give up rear bed speakers to do have all those active at the same time.

In other words, the max limit is the max limit. If it has 11 channels max (that means processing not amp channels), you have to give up front wides on something like the Marantz 7010 to get front/rear heights. Otherwise, you can have only front wides plus two height channels active at one time. Give up rear bed speakers and you can have from wides plus from and rear heights. AURO-3D doesn't use rear bed speakers on 11-channel AVRs or front wides so it would auto switch to front/rear heights + VOG if you have it configured by switching out the rear bed speakers.

You can use the extra two channels on the Onkyo for active mixer matrixed speakers (I create matrixed front wides using front L/R + Sides in an active mixer) or to duplicate more channels (e.g. Have two sets if side surrounds if you have multiple rows of seats or whatever). You can't use unused amp channels on the main AVR for something else because it's in a decoder mode, not 7ch input mode.

Audyssey works like normal through preamp channel outputs. The Onkyo just acts as amplifier channels, not processing/EQ. You can't use it directly with extracted or matrixed external channels since those are extra channels beyond 11. The second AVR can apply its own EQ if available, but probably not in 7ch input mode. You can use multiple AVRs (see "Scatmos" setups) and they can do their own Audyssey correction or you could use mini-dsp units or whatever instead.

So for front /rear heights plus VOG you'd set up 12 channels, but VOG would only be used in Auro modes unless you disable rear bed channels at which point DTS/Neural X could also use it (again, Auro doesn't use rear bed anyway on 11-channel AVRs).

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6020 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 12:55 PM
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I'm just trying to figure out the cheapest path to get to 7.2.4+VOG, but more specifically, I don't want the standard 7.2.4 with side heights, I want 7.2.4 with front and rear heights+VOG so it can work for both auro-3D and atmos without moving any speakers.
The Denon X8500H is the only current major brand AVR that can do 7.2.5 (FH+RH+VOG).
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@garymaurizi

You'd use 7CH in mode on the Onkyo if it has one. You can't use regular inputs and just use amp channels for just anything since it always runs a decode mode. 7ch in normally is just a straight pass through mode save perhaps speaker delays.

No model does 14 out. They have speaker switching built in. In other words, older AVRs (and the 8500H) nay have dedicated front side speaker terminals (or they may share them with "height") but that doesn't mean it can drive wides + 4 heights (the 8500 can since it has 13 channels, but it can also do 6 heights instead including Auro VOG and center height + front /rear heights (instead of Atmos top middle) and DTS's neural x supports those, but DTS has an 11 channel limit so you'd have to give up rear bed speakers to do have all those active at the same time.

In other words, the max limit is the max limit. If it has 11 channels max (that means processing not amp channels), you have to give up front wides on something like the Marantz 7010 to get front/rear heights. Otherwise, you can have only front wides plus two height channels active at one time. Give up rear bed speakers and you can have from wides plus from and rear heights. AURO-3D doesn't use rear bed speakers on 11-channel AVRs or front wides so it would auto switch to front/rear heights + VOG if you have it configured by switching out the rear bed speakers.

You can use the extra two channels on the Onkyo for active mixer matrixed speakers (I create matrixed front wides using front L/R + Sides in an active mixer) or to duplicate more channels (e.g. Have two sets if side surrounds if you have multiple rows of seats or whatever). You can't use unused amp channels on the main AVR for something else because it's in a decoder mode, not 7ch input mode.

Audyssey works like normal through preamp channel outputs. The Onkyo just acts as amplifier channels, not processing/EQ. You can't use it directly with extracted or matrixed external channels since those are extra channels beyond 11. The second AVR can apply its own EQ if available, but probably not in 7ch input mode. You can use multiple AVRs (see "Scatmos" setups) and they can do their own Audyssey correction or you could use mini-dsp units or whatever instead.

So for front /rear heights plus VOG you'd set up 12 channels, but VOG would only be used in Auro modes unless you disable rear bed channels at which point DTS/Neural X could also use it (again, Auro doesn't use rear bed anyway on 11-channel AVRs).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
The Denon X8500H is the only current major brand AVR that can do 7.2.5 (FH+RH+VOG).
Thank You both so much.

I had a feeling that this was the case, and this explains everything beautifully, it can just sometimes be confusing the way these companies lay out the back of these units. I'm going to have to re-think my setup, or save up for the AVR-X8500H.

Am I wrong in wanting a universal Auro-3D 7.1.4 setup with rear surrounds and rear heights? (so that I can also use them for atmos front/rear heights at the same time?) I have also read that Auro-3D doesn't do that well with rear heights in-place of the side heights, and that atmos does better with top front/top rear in-ceiling speakers instead of heights all-together? am I just making both modes sound worse by trying to accommodate both options with minor sacrifices to each (at least until technology catches up and gets cheaper)? I'm starting to think that might be the case here?

I have a 18x12 room with the couch right in the middle and all of the 7.1 speakers mounted on the walls. (fronts 6 ft apart on the front wall 8 feet from the MLP, sides to the left and right approx 3 ft from MLP, rears 6 ft apart and 8 feet from the MLP) so it's harder to imagine giving up my rear surrounds in my current setup.

I could always push the couch up against the back wall, opening up the whole floor plan (which is what I wanted to do initially regarding furniture layout but sacrificed in order to gain better speaker placement) and at that point with the couch against the wall it would make sense to ditch the rear surrounds and just move the side surrounds back approx. 4 feet... then I could use one of these cheaper units that does auro-3D with 5.1+4 height+VOG and do atmos with 5.1+rear/front heights+Unused VOG but even in this setup it seems like both would suffer a bit because the rear heights are supposed to be at a slight angle angled at the MLP and they would practically be angled straight downward... not to mention the front heights would be like 18 feet away in front of me.

For some reason I am just hesitant to sacrifice my rear surrounds? I feel like there's more atmos content (as much as I'd like the option to do auro-3D) and I feel like I would be losing more giving up the rear surrounds in a 7.1.4 atmos setup than I would be gaining from having a correct auro-3D speaker placement?

So I guess I'm at a bit of an impasse! I just don't have enough first-hand experience to know what would sound better.

Any thoughts on this are much appreciated!

And again, thank you all so very much for your help!

EDIT: these miniDSP units look really interesting but I can't seem to find info on what surround codecs they can decode? any more devices like this? I actually don't mind the idea of separate amplification if I can find something relatively affordable to do the atmos+auro3D processing.

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post #6022 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 03:26 PM
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Am I wrong in wanting a universal Auro-3D 7.1.4 setup with rear surrounds and rear heights?
No, but given the utter lack of Auro-3D native titles (with grim prospects of that changing at this point), I'm not sure how much it really matters.... Most of the Auro-3D native titles are also available with Atmos (Red Tails excepted and various music titles, possibly a few more).

I setup rear heights for Atmos and have a speaker selector switchbox that lets me redirect rear heights to side heights for Auro-3D titles. That way I have the option of the surround height playback option for Auro-3D without having to change the configuration at all (since it's channel based, it doesn't know the difference, the content is the same, only the speaker location is different).

Quote:
(so that I can also use them for atmos front/rear heights at the same time?) I have also read that Auro-3D doesn't do that well with rear heights in-place of the side heights
I dunno; it sounds pretty OK to my ears, especially with top middle extracted from front/rear heights (extracted works with Auro and DTS X and gets around the DTS 11 channel limit). With movies, I don't know how much it really matters (positions might be a little different but they're both off-screen anyway). I like rear heights on if anyone is sitting in the 2nd/3rd rows, but if it's only front, I switch to side (I can have both play at the same time by driving them in parallel from the same switchbox).

Quote:
and that atmos does better with top front/top rear in-ceiling speakers instead of heights all-together?
I have not found that to be the case. I imagine it might be more noticeable in some rooms for certain effects when they're closer to the listener than closer to the screen, but if you have the top middle speakers (again I use extracted), I think height is better since the effects go all the way to the top of the screen and pan anywhere in-between there and the back of the room.

Quote:
am I just making both modes sound worse by trying to accommodate both options with minor sacrifices to each (at least until technology catches up and gets cheaper)? I'm starting to think that might be the case here?
I went even further with the speaker selector box. I could add a second box and put top middle ceiling speakers up too and use it to switch between side height and ceiling top without too much difficulty (beyond having to mount more speakers). You can't just switch them with a remote, though. I have to actually get up and push a button on the box (rough I know).

Quote:
I have a 18x12 room with the couch right in the middle and all of the 7.1 speakers mounted on the walls. (fronts 6 ft apart on the front wall 8 feet from the MLP, sides to the left and right approx 3 ft from MLP, rears 6 ft apart and 8 feet from the MLP) so it's harder to imagine giving up my rear surrounds in my current setup.
I wouldn't. I think rear surrounds are great, especially with multiple rows (I have 3 rows of seating in a 12x24' room. The back row sounds the most interesting for surround effects, IMO if the rears are used well (a virtual near 24 foot long "vortex of sound" to the front with things flying everywhere on the Atmos demos (well they fly everywhere in the other seats two, but some are behind and in front, etc. All in front or right overhead or to the sides is kind of wild with 4 speakers in-between before it ever gets to the front quarter of the room where there are 7 more speakers and a subwoofer....My rear speakers are full range towers so I'm not even sure I need a second sub; the bass is already crazy earthshaking everywhere in the room)

Quote:
I could always push the couch up against the back wall, opening up the whole floor plan (which is what I wanted to do initially regarding furniture layout but sacrificed in order to gain better speaker placement) and at that point with the couch against the wall it would make sense to ditch the rear surrounds and just move the side surrounds back approx. 4 feet... then I could use one of these cheaper units that does auro-3D with 5.1+4 height+VOG and do atmos with 5.1+rear/front heights+Unused VOG but even in this setup it seems like both would suffer a bit because the rear heights are supposed to be at a slight angle angled at the MLP and they would practically be angled straight downward...
Honestly, given the lack of Auro-3D titles, I wouldn't base a layout around Auro alone at this point. I know it's tempting because that whole Voice of God thing just sounds cool (I've got an extra channel ready to hook up the speaker if I can find a way to mount it where the rear gets a clear output given the ceiling beam across the middle of the room), but the existing heights simulate it pretty well.

Quote:
For some reason I am just hesitant to sacrifice my rear surrounds? I feel like there's more atmos content (as much as I'd like the option to do auro-3D) and I feel like I would be losing more giving up the rear surrounds in a 7.1.4 atmos setup than I would be gaining from having a correct auro-3D speaker placement?
That's why I have a speaker selector box (Monoprice 2-in 2-out unit with volume control which means I don't even have to adjust the volume when I move the rear heights to the side since I did it once and then forget).

DTS X sounds pretty wicked with 9.1.6 as well.... (watched Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom with 3D and DTS X sound this past week; pretty sweet sounding and looked/sounded great in all the seats other than sometimes the rear speakers didn't have much ambience in scenes where nothing big was coming up from behind. I don't think they figured most home setups would have rear speakers 10 feet behind the side speakers..... The Atmos demos where things fly around the room are wicked (a bird flys from the left side into the back around to the right side and halfway forward and then across right in front of my couch up over my left shoulder (changing height as it flies in places). I think that was the Atmos "Amaze" demo.... The "Conductor" one was pretty cool too when the cartoon guy swings around the back of the room and animals are all over the place.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6023 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 04:58 PM
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No, but given the utter lack of Auro-3D native titles (with grim prospects of that changing at this point), I'm not sure how much it really matters.... Most of the Auro-3D native titles are also available with Atmos (Red Tails excepted and various music titles, possibly a few more).

I setup rear heights for Atmos and have a speaker selector switchbox that lets me redirect rear heights to side heights for Auro-3D titles. That way I have the option of the surround height playback option for Auro-3D without having to change the configuration at all (since it's channel based, it doesn't know the difference, the content is the same, only the speaker location is different).



I dunno; it sounds pretty OK to my ears, especially with top middle extracted from front/rear heights (extracted works with Auro and DTS X and gets around the DTS 11 channel limit). With movies, I don't know how much it really matters (positions might be a little different but they're both off-screen anyway). I like rear heights on if anyone is sitting in the 2nd/3rd rows, but if it's only front, I switch to side (I can have both play at the same time by driving them in parallel from the same switchbox).



I have not found that to be the case. I imagine it might be more noticeable in some rooms for certain effects when they're closer to the listener than closer to the screen, but if you have the top middle speakers (again I use extracted), I think height is better since the effects go all the way to the top of the screen and pan anywhere in-between there and the back of the room.



I went even further with the speaker selector box. I could add a second box and put top middle ceiling speakers up too and use it to switch between side height and ceiling top without too much difficulty (beyond having to mount more speakers). You can't just switch them with a remote, though. I have to actually get up and push a button on the box (rough I know).



I wouldn't. I think rear surrounds are great, especially with multiple rows (I have 3 rows of seating in a 12x24' room. The back row sounds the most interesting for surround effects, IMO if the rears are used well (a virtual near 24 foot long "vortex of sound" to the front with things flying everywhere on the Atmos demos (well they fly everywhere in the other seats two, but some are behind and in front, etc. All in front or right overhead or to the sides is kind of wild with 4 speakers in-between before it ever gets to the front quarter of the room where there are 7 more speakers and a subwoofer....My rear speakers are full range towers so I'm not even sure I need a second sub; the bass is already crazy earthshaking everywhere in the room)



Honestly, given the lack of Auro-3D titles, I wouldn't base a layout around Auro alone at this point. I know it's tempting because that whole Voice of God thing just sounds cool (I've got an extra channel ready to hook up the speaker if I can find a way to mount it where the rear gets a clear output given the ceiling beam across the middle of the room), but the existing heights simulate it pretty well.



That's why I have a speaker selector box (Monoprice 2-in 2-out unit with volume control which means I don't even have to adjust the volume when I move the rear heights to the side since I did it once and then forget).

DTS X sounds pretty wicked with 9.1.6 as well.... (watched Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom with 3D and DTS X sound this past week; pretty sweet sounding and looked/sounded great in all the seats other than sometimes the rear speakers didn't have much ambience in scenes where nothing big was coming up from behind. I don't think they figured most home setups would have rear speakers 10 feet behind the side speakers..... The Atmos demos where things fly around the room are wicked (a bird flys from the left side into the back around to the right side and halfway forward and then across right in front of my couch up over my left shoulder (changing height as it flies in places). I think that was the Atmos "Amaze" demo.... The "Conductor" one was pretty cool too when the cartoon guy swings around the back of the room and animals are all over the place.
Thank You so much for this reply!

I have a lot to think about now and this absolutely answered all of my questions.

I really like the way you got around some of these limitations using matrix switches/switch boxes. I think I'm going to steal that idea.

Back to the drawing board for me!

Thank You all so much again.
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post #6024 of 6397 Old 11-09-2018, 05:37 PM
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Thank You so much for this reply!

I have a lot to think about now and this absolutely answered all of my questions.

I really like the way you got around some of these limitations using matrix switches/switch boxes. I think I'm going to steal that idea.

Back to the drawing board for me!

Thank You all so much again.
Here's a link to my setup (now 7012 instead of 7010) and the room has new chairs and movie posters. EDIT: I went back and added two new photos to show the chairs and added movie posters so far. The couch has to go yet; I have more chairs on order still and I'm still deciding what to do with the front half the room, either more movie posters or some kind of acoustic tiling or a combination or maybe drapes, perhaps on a track so it can go around the corner and block off the bookcases too?). Anyway, you can see the Monoprice box on the top right rack sitting on top of the LG UHD player. Active Mixers are on the bottom right rack left side, left of the clock and GameCube. The post has a list of equipment, etc. and you can see the speakers I used, etc.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56799092

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)

Last edited by MagnumX; 11-09-2018 at 05:51 PM.
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post #6025 of 6397 Old 11-11-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by garymaurizi View Post
Thank You both so much.

I had a feeling that this was the case, and this explains everything beautifully, it can just sometimes be confusing the way these companies lay out the back of these units. I'm going to have to re-think my setup, or save up for the AVR-X8500H.

Am I wrong in wanting a universal Auro-3D 7.1.4 setup with rear surrounds and rear heights? (so that I can also use them for atmos front/rear heights at the same time?) I have also read that Auro-3D doesn't do that well with rear heights in-place of the side heights, and that atmos does better with top front/top rear in-ceiling speakers instead of heights all-together? am I just making both modes sound worse by trying to accommodate both options with minor sacrifices to each (at least until technology catches up and gets cheaper)? I'm starting to think that might be the case here?

I have a 18x12 room with the couch right in the middle and all of the 7.1 speakers mounted on the walls. (fronts 6 ft apart on the front wall 8 feet from the MLP, sides to the left and right approx 3 ft from MLP, rears 6 ft apart and 8 feet from the MLP) so it's harder to imagine giving up my rear surrounds in my current setup.

I could always push the couch up against the back wall, opening up the whole floor plan (which is what I wanted to do initially regarding furniture layout but sacrificed in order to gain better speaker placement) and at that point with the couch against the wall it would make sense to ditch the rear surrounds and just move the side surrounds back approx. 4 feet... then I could use one of these cheaper units that does auro-3D with 5.1+4 height+VOG and do atmos with 5.1+rear/front heights+Unused VOG but even in this setup it seems like both would suffer a bit because the rear heights are supposed to be at a slight angle angled at the MLP and they would practically be angled straight downward... not to mention the front heights would be like 18 feet away in front of me.

For some reason I am just hesitant to sacrifice my rear surrounds? I feel like there's more atmos content (as much as I'd like the option to do auro-3D) and I feel like I would be losing more giving up the rear surrounds in a 7.1.4 atmos setup than I would be gaining from having a correct auro-3D speaker placement?

So I guess I'm at a bit of an impasse! I just don't have enough first-hand experience to know what would sound better.

Any thoughts on this are much appreciated!

And again, thank you all so very much for your help!

EDIT: these miniDSP units look really interesting but I can't seem to find info on what surround codecs they can decode? any more devices like this? I actually don't mind the idea of separate amplification if I can find something relatively affordable to do the atmos+auro3D processing.
Before I finalized my setup I tested an Auro3D configuration and an ATMOS configuration but not just with Auro3d encodes or Atmos encode I test them with stereo tracks on up.

For me everything sounded better using Auro3d and the Auro3d up mixer even Atmos and DTS-X encoded tracks.

I came across a couple videos on youtube they are Deutsch, I think, and testing the difference between Dolby Atmos playback vs Dolby Atmos played back using Auro3D on the first one and the difference between Dolby Atmos playback vs Dolby Atmos played back using Auro3D upmixer and DTS:Neural:X.



I am not sure what his speaker configuration is but I got similar results in my testing in fact I prefer Atmos with Auro3d speaker configuration and Auro3d upmixer than Atmos in Atmos configuration. DTS X encoded tracks on the other hand sound pretty good over an Auro3d speaker setup but a little bigger and wider using the Auro3d upmixer.

My advice if you are going to setup a system do it in a temporary fashion and test Atmos, DTX-X and Auro3d speaker configurations and test it with everything. You might find as I did that money is better spent on a dedicated system in my case Auro3d.
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post #6026 of 6397 Old 11-11-2018, 09:06 AM
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@Socio ,

I'm not sure what the videos are supposed to demonstrate as YouTube is in 2-channel (i.e. We can't tell any difference from that). With an extracted setup, you can easily combine Auro-3D and Atmos in either direction and even use a switchbox to swap speaker locations (not the best thing from an Audyssey standpoint, however, but you can store more than one set of settings on a USB stick). I can swap rear height with side height or play both at the same time with a push of a button (Monoprice 2-in, 2-out with volume control speaker selector box). With a second one, I could even have ceiling based top middle speakers that could be changed to parallel dual mono VOG speakers instead for Auro modes. The switchboxes are like $50-60. It's really not that hard to get around whatever perceived limitations there are. But I agree that using side heights instead of top heights in a room that's not terribly wide sounds great with Atmos. I'm not particularly driven to get the ceiling speakers other than I'd like to hear VOG over a real speaker and I figure dual VOG could give me ceiling Atmos to compare while I'm at it. All I need is a second switchbox and two more PSB CS500 speakers. The only issue is the steel beam box in the area (I'd need to get the ceiling speakers to a level that the rear rows could hear it as well without the box blocking it).

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6027 of 6397 Old 11-11-2018, 09:50 AM
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@ MagnumX

True they are in stereo, from what I can tell the main audio stage has been muted so what they show is the difference in the sounds coming the heights and likely VOG between the different formats and playback modes.
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post #6028 of 6397 Old 11-11-2018, 10:02 AM
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@ MagnumX

True they are in stereo, from what I can tell the main audio stage has been muted so what they show is the difference in the sounds coming the heights and likely VOG between the different formats and playback modes.
Ah, OK. That's helpful to know. I'll have to listen again when I get back.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6029 of 6397 Old 11-13-2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Socio View Post
Before I finalized my setup I tested an Auro3D configuration and an ATMOS configuration but not just with Auro3d encodes or Atmos encode I test them with stereo tracks on up.

For me everything sounded better using Auro3d and the Auro3d up mixer even Atmos and DTS-X encoded tracks.

I came across a couple videos on youtube they are Deutsch, I think, and testing the difference between Dolby Atmos playback vs Dolby Atmos played back using Auro3D on the first one and the difference between Dolby Atmos playback vs Dolby Atmos played back using Auro3D upmixer and DTS:Neural:X.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYbcBgW0FHo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONVMTT_DK3E

I am not sure what his speaker configuration is but I got similar results in my testing in fact I prefer Atmos with Auro3d speaker configuration and Auro3d upmixer than Atmos in Atmos configuration. DTS X encoded tracks on the other hand sound pretty good over an Auro3d speaker setup but a little bigger and wider using the Auro3d upmixer.

My advice if you are going to setup a system do it in a temporary fashion and test Atmos, DTX-X and Auro3d speaker configurations and test it with everything. You might find as I did that money is better spent on a dedicated system in my case Auro3d.

now it has marantz av8805 + IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Channel Power Amplifier x 2 + klipsch speaker 13.2
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post #6030 of 6397 Old 11-13-2018, 04:33 PM
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Here's a link to my setup (now 7012 instead of 7010) and the room has new chairs and movie posters. EDIT: I went back and added two new photos to show the chairs and added movie posters so far. The couch has to go yet; I have more chairs on order still and I'm still deciding what to do with the front half the room, either more movie posters or some kind of acoustic tiling or a combination or maybe drapes, perhaps on a track so it can go around the corner and block off the bookcases too?). Anyway, you can see the Monoprice box on the top right rack sitting on top of the LG UHD player. Active Mixers are on the bottom right rack left side, left of the clock and GameCube. The post has a list of equipment, etc. and you can see the speakers I used, etc.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56799092
When you mentioned using a speaker selector box for the sides/rears, do you mean that you have a 7.1 bed layer, front height, side height, rear height speakers mounted and the side and rear heights run into a selector box then when you play auro3d content you just switch the box so that the signal the receiver thinks is going to rear height speakers actually gets sent to a pair of speakers mounted in the side heights position and the pair of speakers mounted in the rear height position sit there doing nothing? if so, are the auro3d signals sent to speakers configured in the avr as rear heights identical to the signal sent to speakers configured in the avr as side heights? or do you just end up with the auro3d signal meant for rear heights coming out of the side height speakers? Also, do the side heights really sound THAT much better than rear heights with auro3d content? why go through the trouble? also, assuming I'm correct about all of this, have you thought about a second selector box to duplicate the signal sent to side heights over to the inactive back heights, and signal sent to side surrounds over to the rear surrounds, so they aren't sitting there doing nothing during auro3d content? or would this just make things sound worse and muddy up positioning?

Does this limitation with Auro-3D never using the rear surround speakers exist on the X8500H? how about the Marantz av7704? This is really a serious bummer... Even with your speaker selector box solution you still end up with rear surround and rear height speakers doing nothing during auro3d playback, is this correct? If so, I wonder how badly it would muddy up the side positioning to just duplicate the sides to the inactive rear speakers and side heights to inactive rear heights during auro 3d content playback? I wonder if it would sound better, worse, or not really make a difference.

Lastly, I don't like the idea of having a central singular VOG speaker that doesnt work for atmos playback positions, has anyone ever thought of doing something like two VOG speakers (in the atmos top middle L+R positions) connected to a 2 way selector box with one source matrixed from the front/rear heights and the second source from the VOG subwoofer 2 pre-amp output? that way you don't just have a VOG speaker up there doing nothing during all of your atmos playback? or am I wrong and atmos/dts is able to use the single top-center position VOG speaker already?


Thanks You soo much for any and all help and inspiration,

Gary M.
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