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post #6031 of 6397 Old 11-13-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by garymaurizi View Post
When you mentioned using a speaker selector box for the sides/rears, do you mean that you have a 7.1 bed layer, front height, side height, rear height speakers mounted and the side and rear heights run into a selector box then when you play auro3d content you just switch the box so that the signal the receiver thinks is going to rear height speakers actually gets sent to a pair of speakers mounted in the side heights position and the pair of speakers mounted in the rear height position sit there doing nothing?
The Monoprice 2-in, 2-out box has 2 sets of inputs and 2 sets of outputs and on the front three sets of controls (volume knob and source A/B selector button and on/off button). I have the Onkyo Dolby Pro Logic extraction output (Top Middle) going into Input 1 and the Rear Height going into Input 2. I have Output 1 going to the Side Height speaker and Output 2 going to the Rear Height speaker. I have the volume knobs set so that when I switch rear height to side height they are at the same level (with output volumes adjusted accordingly to make that happen). Thus, I never have to adjust volume again. I can turn either set of speakers On/Off (that one should be obvious). Otherwise, I can set the output speakers (side and rear) to Input 1 or Input 2. I would never need to set the Rear height speakers to Input 1 as what would be the point in playing Top Middle in the back of the room?

For Atmos & DTS X, I have the side heights set to Input 1 (Top Middle) and the Rear set to Input 2 (Rear Height) (i.e. the AVR is set to output Rear Height and Front Height as the 4 overhead channels).

Now I have THREE (well technically more) choices with Auro-3D material.

1> Leave it the Same as Atmos/X (Front Height + Top Middle + Rear Height). This actually sounds pretty good, at least with movie material (The Auro-3D demo sounded pretty good to me too with the flyovers being more realistic into the back of the room). In fact, I'm starting to wonder if this isn't the best setting with three rows, at least for movies. I get nothing out of the rear bed speakers, but the rear heights are active, which helps make up for it.

2> Set Output 1 to Input 2 (i.e. Send Rear Height to Surround Height, which is the side heights). Turn off Output 2. This gives "Pure" Auro-3D 9.1 (or 10.1 if I added the VOG). This is how it's meant to sound. It works fine for the front (main) row of seats. Sitting behind it leaves the back sounding pretty empty. You get some behind sounds in the front row because I have the side surround and height speakers behind the front row somewhat, maybe 110-115 degrees or so (I didn't measure exactly, just move the couch forward a bit).

3> Set Output 1 to Input 2 as in 2, but leave Output 2 ALSO set to Input 2. This drives the speakers in parallel and so I get identical information out of both the side heights and the rear heights (similar to an actual Auro 10.1 theater). This gives pretty close to normal Auro for the main row, but gives row 2 & 3 material behind it. This sounds good for all three rows. I'm still not sure if I prefer this or option 1 for multiple row playback. I'd need to compare more material. Both sound pretty good in their own way. I think option 1 sounds more like Atmos.

Another possible option is to turn off the side heights entirely (Output 1 to OFF) and play Front Height + Rear Height only. I can do this for any input. This just negates the output from the Onkyo units. To make sure all material gets there (or with Auro), the Onkyo units should be set to BYPASS mode (so they're not removing the in-phase material any longer).

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if so, are the auro3d signals sent to speakers configured in the avr as rear heights identical to the signal sent to speakers configured in the avr as side heights? or do you just end up with the auro3d signal meant for rear heights coming out of the side height speakers?
Auro-3D is a channel based system, not an object based system for the home so there is literally zero difference between setting an AVR to "Side Surround" or "Rear Surround" in terms of the output going to those channels (the only thing affected is whether it will allow Atmos to play to that channel as the AVR allows Atmos to Rear Height but not Side Surround as Atmos is object based and rear is rear. I think it should allow top middle to there as Atmos sounds good through an Auro-3D layout; I don't know why this isn't an option really). So I leave it set to "Rear Height" in the settings and the speaker box just sends the signal to either the side height speakers or the rear height speakers or both at the same time. You could set up a box to duplicate the side surround bed channels to play through the rear bed channels when playing Auro-3D if you wanted to. The Denon 8500H (and I assume also the Marantz pre/pro equivalent) does send the upmixer output to the rear channels on Auro 9.1/10.1 movies and with the couple of 13.1 movies available, it sends true rear surround information the lower rear channels. It does NOT have a separate rear "height" channel, however. Setting Auro to use Rear Height just moves the side height channel to the rear location.

This is the main reason I think Auro-3D is inferior to Atmos and even X (despite its 11-channel limit that can be overcome using multiple AVRs or external extraction) as there is no way to make up for material that doesn't exist. You can extract speakers in-between channels, but you can't make a rear channel. You could move the side channel to the rear and extract a channel between the side and front or between side and wide, though, but it's not really where it's meant to be physically speaking.

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Also, do the side heights really sound THAT much better than rear heights with auro3d content? why go through the trouble?
Some say they do. The only way I would know is if I tried them for myself. I haven't listened to enough material to make up my mind yet. Either way, I already had side heights in position from my previous 6.1 setup. I simply added lower/bed speakers there. I would have had to patch the wall to move them so I figured why not reuse them and have the option of "true" Auro-3D as it's meant to be setup for 9.1/10.1? I would like the side heights another 12-14 inches higher on the wall, but the steel beam box makes that impossible and I need all rows to get the information so the S50 bipolars are perfect for that. There is some concern about parallel driving might be hard on the AVR, however. It's best to have 8 Ohm speakers for this.

I have thought about putting dual ceiling speakers with a switchbox to use ceiling Atmos and dual-mono VOG choices (as you ask lower down), but because of the steel beam, it would be difficult to find a really good location for all seats to hear them (at least not without having wires across the ceiling to put them further forward so it reaches there). I haven't really decided. I can't be sure if Atmos would sound better in that position in my room without actually hearing it. I do know the side heights sound good and just seem to move the image over slightly (barely noticeable since it's only a 2 foot difference).

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also, assuming I'm correct about all of this, have you thought about a second selector box to duplicate the signal sent to side heights over to the inactive back heights
As stated above, the box already does that. I can have side height by itself, rear height by itself or both at the same time (or neither if you really want to get technical about options).

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and signal sent to side surrounds over to the rear surrounds, so they aren't sitting there doing nothing during auro3d content? or would this just make things sound worse and muddy up positioning?
It just moves the positioning back slightly from the front and adds it behind for the other rows. It doesn't "blur" (it's the way human hearing works for near time delays; it just changes the phantom imaging. Now if the speakers were really different from each other, it might sound bad, I suppose.

I'd need either a second box (parallel option) or another amp to duplicate the side surrounds. The wiring will get messier and messier the crazier you go with this stuff. I've been thinking about adding speakers between side surround and rear surround on the bed level next, probably matrixed to start, but maybe eventually extracted for them and the front wides. I keep thinking about it. 11.1.6 would be pretty sweet for precise imaging for all rows....

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Does this limitation with Auro-3D never using the rear surround speakers exist on the X8500H? how about the Marantz av7704?
As indicated above, those send the Auro upmixer output to the rear bed surrounds on those models (assuming the 7704 is the 13 channel Marantz; I didn't look it up). The Auro upmixer isn't real noticeable, but would probably help with multiple rows (something is coming out of them at least). True 13.1 material would play full on back there on those models, but I'm only aware of TWO such native releases so far (Johnny Mnemonic and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, neither of which have particularly great mixes anyway, from what I've been told (I have Johnny, but haven't watched it yet).

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This is really a serious bummer...
No, the real bummer is the lack of Auro-3D Native titles. But then, I'm convinced Atmos is better for movies at this point as it offers the most flexibility for adding more channels (although Neural X is the best upmixer, IMO). Auro's upmixer sounds good for music, though (although I kind of like multi-channel stereo once I adjust the levels so the surrounds aren't overwhelming; I then saved a copy on a smart button for music).

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Even with your speaker selector box solution you still end up with rear surround and rear height speakers doing nothing during auro3d playback, is this correct?
See above. I get rear height if I want it.

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Lastly, I don't like the idea of having a central singular VOG speaker that doesnt work for atmos playback positions, has anyone ever thought of doing something like two VOG speakers (in the atmos top middle L+R positions) connected to a 2 way selector box with one source matrixed from the front/rear heights and the second source from the VOG subwoofer 2 pre-amp output? that way you don't just have a VOG speaker up there doing nothing during all of your atmos playback? or am I wrong and atmos/dts is able to use the single top-center position VOG speaker already?
That's what I was thinking of doing above. Yes, DTS can use the VOG speaker, at least on the 8500 (if there are any channel allocations available left to it, but given its 11-channel limitation that is highly unlikely even on the 8500 unless you're willing to give up top middle AND rear surround as options since you'd need 5.1.6 to do 6 overheads; this has been verified as possible, however). One advantage to that 5.1.6 configuration, however is that with the 8500 you can have top center (speaker above the center channel speaker) and thus you'd get TWO channels in the middle of the room for something like a plane to take direct path down the middle of the room through real speakers. In my experience, IN PHASE (centered) overhead material is rare. Movies just don't seem to put much in that path. I've got a Disney Pirates of the Caribbean Movie (On Stranger Tides) where at the opening with the castle flag waving it IS in phase in the side surrounds and you hear the flag whip right over your head (pretty sweet sounding) so it IS possible. I can't understand why more material doesn't do this. They seem to keep it spread out phase wise (e.g. Star Wars Battlefront demo has tie fighters flying overhead, etc. but at least here they're not real pin-point, kind of "way up there" vague sounding instead "right over you head" in the middle (i.e. spread across multiple speakers at varying amounts). Things like rain etc. are right overhead, but they're also right overhead "everywhere" too. That's where I imagine ceiling speakers might help a bit as it IS overhead at the sides of the room on either side and if those were closer to the MLP they'd still sound up there more, but again, we're talking two feet so it wouldn't be the same as in-phase straight over your head effects. Keep in mind I've only watched a handful of movies so far what with the 7010 dying and having other things to do in life as well.
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post #6032 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 06:38 AM
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@garymaurizi
I maybe got everything wrong, but in your msg 6015
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showt...php?p=57080142
You got it right, unless Auro3d decoder/upmixer doesn't pulls out SB in a inexpensive solution. All the other things there mentioned are feasible and not quite expensive, as Magnum has extensively explained.
Certainly all the last and beautiful cost so much (D x8500, M Av8805).
The lessen flagship D 4400, 4500 and M 7012 7013, together with D 6400 and 6500 and M 7704, 7705 can also power / drive till 11 channels (+). So you can have an external 2 or 3 channels amplifier and drive all the channels. Or, have an external old flagship 7.1 Avr with 7.1 multichannel inputs and drive 5 overheads plus some 2 spare channels.
Surely I can subscribe it is not worthwhile to ditch the SB channels.
I would like to have double mono VOGs loudspeakers to be used as TM for Atmos!
Regards
Alessandro

(+) Edit: I avoided calling to D 4300 or M 7010 and 7011(this is the one I have), because You still have to pay here for the Auro upgrade, but everything else applies as well to them.

Marantz Sr7011, Galactron Mk10b, Pioneer VsxLx50. Klipsch Cornwall, Wharfedale 9.1, Klipsch CP-6. Sony UbpX800, Lg Up970, Hisense 55M5500. 110 inches rolling screen, excelvan cl720d.

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post #6033 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by satsok View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYcUH4oxIc

now it has marantz av8805 + IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Channel Power Amplifier x 2 + klipsch speaker 13.2
Can anyone who has followed and implemented the Auro 3D tech specifications for installation of its 13.1 layout get back to me. I'm curious to learn if you needed to bump out your front heights (from the front wall/ceiling) in order to accommodate the 30 degree min angle per the spec. From my seating position, that's what I've had to do. I'm installing the speakers today in advance of receipt of the 8500 tomorrow. I'm using all Martin Logan SLM for height, top, and surrounds. Motion 40 and 50XT serve as LCR. Thanks.
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post #6034 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satsok View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYcUH4oxIc

now it has marantz av8805 + IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Channel Power Amplifier x 2 + klipsch speaker 13.2
Can anyone who has followed and implemented the Auro 3D tech specifications for installation of its 13.1 layout get back to me. I'm curious to learn if you needed to bump out your front heights (from the front wall/ceiling) in order to accommodate the 30 degree min angle per the spec. From my seating position, that's what I've had to do. I'm installing the speakers today in advance of receipt of the 8500 tomorrow. I'm using all Martin Logan SLM for height, top, and surrounds. Motion 40 and 50XT serve as LCR. Thanks.
I ignored the specs (23 degrees is close enough given its at the ceiling ad top of the screen. Pulling it out makes it a ceiling speaker not a height. Besides, if your theater is long enough, it's impossible to have at least 30 for every seat. Hell if you have only two rows and it's 30 to the MLP, it won't be 30 to the second row. But if you add more height speakers it really doesn't matter so much as the angles between speakers shrinks anyway and it's those angles that really define whether it pans smoothly or not.

With a 24 foot long room and 3 rows, I needed 6 overheads. This pans edge to edge just fine at 23/100/18 from the MLP (obviously the rear row is closer to 90 on the rear heights and the middle to 80 on the middle and maybe 45 to the rears. The point is all rows have rain overhead, etc. and pan horizon to horizon.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6035 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Pulling it out makes it a ceiling speaker not a height.
Hi, and thanks for your input. Not sure what you meant by "makes it a ceiling speaker"? Can I trouble you to elaborate?
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post #6036 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 01:15 PM
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Hi, and thanks for your input. Not sure what you meant by "makes it a ceiling speaker"? Can I trouble you to elaborate?
My "height" speaker sits on the top level of a bookshelf near the ceiling next to my 92" screen on either side. If I pulled it out towards the listening position, it would have to be mounted on the ceiling at that point (and it would block the view of the bookshelves which wouldn't look good either). If you just define "height" as up to 45 degrees (or 30-45) and "ceiling" (or perhaps "top" is the correct word) as 45-60 degrees, then no pulling them out and mounting them ON or IN the ceiling wouldn't matter from that standpoint. I'm simply stating that if I wanted to mount the speakers on or in the ceiling, I'd mount them where they're supposed to be (i.e. 45 degree angle, not 30 degrees). To me, the whole point in using "height" is to NOT have to put the things on the ceiling (although in my case I did put the rear heights on the ceiling as that was the only way to make it work there, but I still left it at the lower angle because I wanted full room coverage to the back wall having a 3rd row just in front of that point. Otherwise rear sounds would be over or in front of the rear row, which I did not want).

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6037 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
My "height" speaker sits on the top level of a bookshelf near the ceiling next to my 92" screen on either side. If I pulled it out towards the listening position, it would have to be mounted on the ceiling at that point (and it would block the view of the bookshelves which wouldn't look good either). If you just define "height" as up to 45 degrees (or 30-45) and "ceiling" (or perhaps "top" is the correct word) as 45-60 degrees, then no pulling them out and mounting them ON or IN the ceiling wouldn't matter from that standpoint. I'm simply stating that if I wanted to mount the speakers on or in the ceiling, I'd mount them where they're supposed to be (i.e. 45 degree angle, not 30 degrees). To me, the whole point in using "height" is to NOT have to put the things on the ceiling (although in my case I did put the rear heights on the ceiling as that was the only way to make it work there, but I still left it at the lower angle because I wanted full room coverage to the back wall having a 3rd row just in front of that point. Otherwise rear sounds would be over or in front of the rear row, which I did not want).
In case anyone misinterprets my initial post, by “bump out” I didn’t mean: alter the position of the ML SLM so that it’s flush against the ceiling firing straight down. No, they’re on a hanging bracket, firing at the appropriate angle to the MLP per Auro specs.

But to offer my thoughts on MagnumX’s comment, to be sure we all need to make compromises. But you know there's a penalty.

I don’t know why one would want to defeat the Aura Technologies system as it's been designed (at least not on the initial install, and especially given the present dearth of A3D content to help evaluate).

I can't ignore the installation specifications; those are precise for a reason (and yet offer leeway for a variety of room scenarios). True also for Dolby installs. What's more is that I've spent a decent amount of time and money in an effort to hear what it is that Auro is promoting. If I were to ignore the install specs, how could I (or anyone) ever truly be certain that we are experiencing Aura 3D as intended? It's a self-answering question. I can always modify things post-installation but only after I know what baseline is.

BTW, the specs only require 30 degrees from the second row (in an installation similar to MagnumX’s; not “for every seat”) and only from the front row MLP in mine.

Back to my initial post, I was curious to learn if anyone else found themselves in a similar position as I am. Just curious.

It's clear from reading and seeing the Auro setup Guidelines that front height speakers are not indicated as to be set directly against the front wall and in fact in all of the install photos/diagrams front heights are shown to be out away from it and some diagrams show the heights attached to the ceiling. Apparently as long as the speaker location specs are met (with respect to degrees alt/az from MLP) ceiling mounting is not contraindicated. As Auro emphasizes, it's the layer(s), not the location, of the speaker, that's the key to the success of their implementation.

[Dolby too publishes 7.1.4 installation specs that show the LRC lower layer away from the rear wall/screen position although theirs is not a three-layer design like Auro’s.]

I did shoot Auro an email with my question, and with details about my install, to be certain that I am in conformance with their standards. I will share with folks here any response they care to provide.
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post #6038 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 05:13 PM
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But you know there's a penalty.
I must have missed this so-called "penalty". What I have noticed is a tendency by those that do not fully understand a given technology to fear it and not "mess" with it. However, the angles aren't mystical. They come from the theory that optimal stereo imaging angle between two speakers is 45 degrees relative to the MLP or a TOTAL of 90 degrees between speakers. Thus, the optimal Dolby speaker angle is 45/135 which is 90 degrees apart total. (Stereophile has an article on their opinions on 2-channel separation and talk about 30/45 angles for 2-channel; they had mixed conclusions relative to the recording, but notice how they stuck to those same angles as they are nothing new. https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/36/index.html)

From what I read, the stereo phantom image starts to seriously degrade beyond a 60 degree arc per speaker or a total of 120 degrees between a pair (30/150) so this is given as the "minimum height" or maximum separation. In my own room, I tested 20/90 (ceiling edge front height + top middle) as well as edge-to-edge (20/160). 20/90 sounded great. 20/160 sounded like there was a hurricane eye above the middle of the room where things like "rain" did not fall. Panning objects would "jump" between the speakers past a certain point which was about 80 degrees or just in front of the MLP to an area about 5 feet behind it, leaving a hole or oval over the middle. Using front plus middle had no hole, but nor did it extend to the back of the room (i.e. it was the equivalent of the room not being that long. Moving the rear surround speakers forward gave that impression (sounded great from MLP; hole just behind the MLP and everything in front of the rear position.

But add the Top Middle speaker in with the front height and rear height eliminated the "hole" and images pan right across the room now. That leaves 110-20 (really 22 at the moment) or 90 degrees between front height and top middle or the near ideal stereo separation distance there for imaging and 160-110 (really more like 162 from the MLP) or 50 (48) from Top Middle to Rear (relative to MLP). I use 110 so 5.1/Auro material has some "rear" presence (90 for side surrounds and heights has almost no "rear" image at all from the MLP; place them 110-120 degrees and you get some behind imaging even with straight 5.1).

The bottom line is that as long as the angular distance between a stereo pair does not exceed 120 degrees and preferably is closer to 90 for ideal stereo imaging, you will get good phantom imaging. Phantom imaging isn't quite as precise in some planes as others, however. The ear is less sensitive overhead sounds in general and side imaging generally isn't as strong as that in front of you or behind you so for maximum precision imaging, I understand a value of 30 degrees between speaker pairs provides the best all around imaging, especially for off-center, off-MLP seats (thus L to Wide would be 30, wide to side would be 30, side to mid-rear would be 30 and mid-rear to rear would be 30 and even left to center and center to right would be 30 each.

IDEAL Atmos HOME THEATER (12*)11.x.6) (in ASCII Art) x=height/top/ceiling speaker; numbers are bed speakers with their relative angels (right side negative) A more typical Atmos home theater has no speakers at 60 or 120 or the top middle overheads for that matter. As you can see, though you can easily fit three rows of seating there which is exactly what I've done (I don't have the 120 speakers yet, but I'm planning on adding them). My top middles are at the 90 degree positions and my front rear heights above the front/rear beds (as per Auro "layer" specs and Atmos "height" specs). If I added two more ceiling speakers above the MLP position with a switchbox, I'd have nearly 'ideal' Atmos and Auro layouts in one setup (minus the 8 degree height difference that doesn't matter much, IMO with the top middle speaker in palace).


---30---00---30---
60--x--------x---60
---------------------
90--x--MLP--x---90
-------Row2--------
120-x-Row3---x-120
--150--180*--150

*Psycho-acoustical effect often puts a speaker directly behind the MLP as sounding in front of it, so the rear center isn't recommended unless it's in an array or dispersed with a reflection off the rear wall or like.

The ideal Auro-3D home theater places the height speakers right above the bed speakers for L/R and Side Surround and in 13.1 also above center and with duplicated rear heights above the rear surrounds speakers. The speakers should not be brought "out" into the room if that means they are no longer above the bed speakers for best results at as dual quad miked material is recorded with them having "LAYERS" in mind. If your bed/height layers are out of alignment, so is your resultant image.

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I don’t know why one would want to defeat the Aura Technologies system as it's been designed (at least not on the initial install, and especially given the present dearth of A3D content to help evaluate).
Especially given? I would say most people put an emphasis on Dolby over Auro precisely due to the lack of native content in Auro-3D. Why bother with an Auro layout if hardly anything supports it and the format appears to be dying? Auro themselves have endorsed "rear height" and now allowed "bouncy/enabled" speakers on the 8500 line precisely because they know most won't bother with it if they don't allow an Atmos compromise to be used. Strangely, I've found "rear height" be nowhere near as bad as the manuals seem to imply as I can readily switch between rear and side height at the push of a few buttons (bypass on the Onkyo extractor units and selecting side instead of rear for the rear height destination).

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I can't ignore the installation specifications; those are precise for a reason (and yet offer leeway for a variety of room scenarios). True also for Dolby installs.
They exist for the reasons stated above. Most of the layouts illustrated (save one) do not have more than 4 overheads. You do realize that at a theater, they do NOT put "bed" speakers at ear level. Period. Most theaters have the side surrounds 2/3 up the wall with Atmos layouts even so. This contradicts the home layout recommendations entirely. It does it for a reason. To blend seamlessly with the (high) ceiling overheads, the side surrounds need to be at an angle not more than 60 degrees between the ceiling and side surround. Put them too low on the wall and the imaging falls apart for the same reason it will fall apart with too low "height" (without a middle bridge) or too long a room between front/rear with only 4 overheads. Dolby wants you to believe that it's all about height separation (bed versus overhead), but they know in their professional installations that you cannot have speakers at ear level in a multi-row theater (they must be above ear level for clear audio between speakers) AND you cannot have too large an angle between any given stereo pair or there will be a hole in the imaging. Thus the side surrounds are at a 45 degree angle relative the audience to the side wall and the ceiling speakers at 90 degrees from them (45 each between side/ceiling and less between ceiling to ceiling). What do the two have in common? They don't violate more than a 90 degree combined angle to the listener.

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What's more is that I've spent a decent amount of time and money in an effort to hear what it is that Auro is promoting. If I were to ignore the install specs, how could I (or anyone) ever truly be certain that we are experiencing Aura 3D as intended? It's a self-answering question. I can always modify things post-installation but only after I know what baseline is.
I find it's simpler than that. I can move my chair forward to increase the angle to 30 to compare.... I don't sit that close for a reason. I'm too close to the darn screen at that point and the front wides.

Here's a question for you. Do you have your center channel speaker below your screen? Do you find it natural to have dialog come from below the screen and actors' mouths? I find it strange so many on here worry to death about the angles of their ceiling speakers but give little or no thought to the most important matching sound in a movie and that's what's on the screen matches what you see/hear. I created a dialog lift mixer for that reason. Dialog comes from the middle of the screen, not below it. I might lose a bit of height separation in the very front compared to below the screen, but at the theater the speakers are in the middle of the screen behind the screen, not below it. Surround effects should be secondary to on-screen sounds and dialog, IMO.

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BTW, the specs only require 30 degrees from the second row (in an installation similar to MagnumX’s; not “for every seat”) and only from the front row MLP in mine.
My point is that any rows behind that are going to have a lowered angle effect (and the same in regards to the front relative to the rear. This in now way "kills" the sound because it travels along a vector line along the ceiling regardless if the speakers are near, right at, on or in the ceiling. The most important part is that the overall combination of the speakers PAN smoothly from front to back. The rest is a matter of preference. I choose dialog over maximum height in the front, for example and end to end coverage of the entire theater for all rows over "recommended" angles (not to mention how the room looks).

Quote:
It's clear from reading and seeing the Auro setup Guidelines that front height speakers are not indicated as to be set directly against the front wall and in fact in all of the install photos/diagrams front heights are shown to be out away from it and some diagrams show the heights attached to the ceiling.
Links to these photos? All Auro theaters I've ever seen have the front speakers behind the screen and the heights at the top (Imax Enhanced does this as well). Only with Atmos installs have I seen the first set of overheads well outside the screen plane. For example, this Auro-3D cinema diagram shows the heights above all the bed speakers save the red VOG ceiling speakers.



Quote:
Apparently as long as the speaker location specs are met (with respect to degrees alt/az from MLP) ceiling mounting is not contraindicated. As Auro emphasizes, it's the layer(s), not the location, of the speaker, that's the key to the success of their implementation.
My problem with putting speakers in front of the screen is that the sound imaging is also shifted in front of the screen plane. I've compared this personally between having my mains in front of my screen or along side it on the bookshelves. The overall sound was muddied on the bookshelf (due to a shelf reflection below it), but the imaging shifted dramatically when you could A/B compare (I had both locations set up simultaneously with the A/B speaker selector able to instantly switch between them. Angles aren't everything. Again, they're for smooth panning. The problem with Auro is that it doesn't use front/rear combos except in 13.1 and even then it duplicates side height with rear height at the cinema. Atmos mixes with ceiling speakers well in front of the screen so it doesn't really come into play there as much (i.e. they don't expect the front row of overheads to be at the screen or right above the front mains like Auro-3D does. You CAN put them there and not contradict the layout using "height" and putting overheads in line with the main L/R channels at home and this makes a good combined layout normally. My room stretches too long so I either have to duplicate side/rear or use the same middle extracted sound to get coverage for all three rows. Given the Auro theaters DO duplicate the sides with the rears (in a 11.1 theater it's EXACTLY like my home layout that's in a 9.1 config), I'd say it's OK to do so and very much like their pre-Auromax theaters.

Quote:
[Dolby too publishes 7.1.4 installation specs that show the LRC lower layer away from the rear wall/screen position although theirs is not a three-layer design like Auro’s.]
The 3-layer design is not even recommended by Auro for most home setups as the ceiling is too low to get any real benefit from it other than locking the image into place. You would need a 9+ foot ceiling to get a noticeable improvement over a phantom VOG.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)

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post #6039 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by satsok View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYcUH4oxIc

now it has marantz av8805 + IOTAVX AVXP1 7 Channel Power Amplifier x 2 + klipsch speaker 13.2
Wow very impressive!
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post #6040 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 06:54 PM
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I must have missed this so-called "penalty". What I have noticed is a tendency by those that do not fully understand a given technology to fear it and not "mess" with it. However, the angles aren't mystical. They come from the theory that optimal stereo imaging angle between two speakers is 45 degrees relative to the MLP or a TOTAL of 90 degrees between speakers. Thus, the optimal Dolby speaker angle is 45/135 which is 90 degrees apart total. (Stereophile has an article on their opinions on 2-channel separation and talk about 30/45 angles for 2-channel; they had mixed conclusions relative to the recording, but notice how they stuck to those same angles as they are nothing new. https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/36/index.html)

From what I read, the stereo phantom image starts to seriously degrade beyond a 60 degree arc per speaker or a total of 120 degrees between a pair (30/150) so this is given as the "minimum height" or maximum separation. In my own room, I tested 20/90 (ceiling edge front height + top middle) as well as edge-to-edge (20/160). 20/90 sounded great. 20/160 sounded like there was a hurricane eye above the middle of the room where things like "rain" did not fall. Panning objects would "jump" between the speakers past a certain point which was about 80 degrees or just in front of the MLP to an area about 5 feet behind it, leaving a hole or oval over the middle. Using front plus middle had no hole, but nor did it extend to the back of the room (i.e. it was the equivalent of the room not being that long. Moving the rear surround speakers forward gave that impression (sounded great from MLP; hole just behind the MLP and everything in front of the rear position.

But add the Top Middle speaker in with the front height and rear height eliminated the "hole" and images pan right across the room now. That leaves 110-20 (really 22 at the moment) or 90 degrees between front height and top middle or the near ideal stereo separation distance there for imaging and 160-110 (really more like 162 from the MLP) or 50 (48) from Top Middle to Rear (relative to MLP). I use 110 so 5.1/Auro material has some "rear" presence (90 for side surrounds and heights has almost no "rear" image at all from the MLP; place them 110-120 degrees and you get some behind imaging even with straight 5.1).

The bottom line is that as long as the angular distance between a stereo pair does not exceed 120 degrees and preferably is closer to 90 for ideal stereo imaging, you will get good phantom imaging. Phantom imaging isn't quite as precise in some planes as others, however. The ear is less sensitive overhead sounds in general and side imaging generally isn't as strong as that in front of you or behind you so for maximum precision imaging, I understand a value of 30 degrees between speaker pairs provides the best all around imaging, especially for off-center, off-MLP seats (thus L to Wide would be 30, wide to side would be 30, side to mid-rear would be 30 and mid-rear to rear would be 30 and even left to center and center to right would be 30 each.

IDEAL Atmos HOME THEATER (12*)11.x.6) (in ASCII Art) x=height/top/ceiling speaker; numbers are bed speakers with their relative angels (right side negative) A more typical Atmos home theater has no speakers at 60 or 120 or the top middle overheads for that matter. As you can see, though you can easily fit three rows of seating there which is exactly what I've done (I don't have the 120 speakers yet, but I'm planning on adding them). My top middles are at the 90 degree positions and my front rear heights above the front/rear beds (as per Auro "layer" specs and Atmos "height" specs). If I added two more ceiling speakers above the MLP position with a switchbox, I'd have nearly 'ideal' Atmos and Auro layouts in one setup (minus the 8 degree height difference that doesn't matter much, IMO with the top middle speaker in palace).


---30---00---30---
60--x--------x---60
---------------------
90--x--MLP--x---90
-------Row2--------
120-x-Row3---x-120
--150--180*--150

*Psycho-acoustical effect often puts a speaker directly behind the MLP as sounding in front of it, so the rear center isn't recommended unless it's in an array or dispersed with a reflection off the rear wall or like.

The ideal Auro-3D home theater places the height speakers right above the bed speakers for L/R and Side Surround and in 13.1 also above center and with duplicated rear heights above the rear surrounds speakers. The speakers should not be brought "out" into the room if that means they are no longer above the bed speakers for best results at as dual quad miked material is recorded with them having "LAYERS" in mind. If your bed/height layers are out of alignment, so is your resultant image.



Especially given? I would say most people put an emphasis on Dolby over Auro precisely due to the lack of native content in Auro-3D. Why bother with an Auro layout if hardly anything supports it and the format appears to be dying? Auro themselves have endorsed "rear height" and now allowed "bouncy/enabled" speakers on the 8500 line precisely because they know most won't bother with it if they don't allow an Atmos compromise to be used. Strangely, I've found "rear height" be nowhere near as bad as the manuals seem to imply as I can readily switch between rear and side height at the push of a few buttons (bypass on the Onkyo extractor units and selecting side instead of rear for the rear height destination).



They exist for the reasons stated above. Most of the layouts illustrated (save one) do not have more than 4 overheads. You do realize that at a theater, they do NOT put "bed" speakers at ear level. Period. Most theaters have the side surrounds 2/3 up the wall with Atmos layouts even so. This contradicts the home layout recommendations entirely. It does it for a reason. To blend seamlessly with the (high) ceiling overheads, the side surrounds need to be at an angle not more than 60 degrees between the ceiling and side surround. Put them too low on the wall and the imaging falls apart for the same reason it will fall apart with too low "height" (without a middle bridge) or too long a room between front/rear with only 4 overheads. Dolby wants you to believe that it's all about height separation (bed versus overhead), but they know in their professional installations that you cannot have speakers at ear level in a multi-row theater (they must be above ear level for clear audio between speakers) AND you cannot have too large an angle between any given stereo pair or there will be a hole in the imaging. Thus the side surrounds are at a 45 degree angle relative the audience to the side wall and the ceiling speakers at 90 degrees from them (45 each between side/ceiling and less between ceiling to ceiling). What do the two have in common? They don't violate more than a 90 degree combined angle to the listener.



I find it's simpler than that. I can move my chair forward to increase the angle to 30 to compare.... I don't sit that close for a reason. I'm too close to the darn screen at that point and the front wides.

Here's a question for you. Do you have your center channel speaker below your screen? Do you find it natural to have dialog come from below the screen and actors' mouths? I find it strange so many on here worry to death about the angles of their ceiling speakers but give little or no thought to the most important matching sound in a movie and that's what's on the screen matches what you see/hear. I created a dialog lift mixer for that reason. Dialog comes from the middle of the screen, not below it. I might lose a bit of height separation in the very front compared to below the screen, but at the theater the speakers are in the middle of the screen behind the screen, not below it. Surround effects should be secondary to on-screen sounds and dialog, IMO.



My point is that any rows behind that are going to have a lowered angle effect (and the same in regards to the front relative to the rear. This in now way "kills" the sound because it travels along a vector line along the ceiling regardless if the speakers are near, right at, on or in the ceiling. The most important part is that the overall combination of the speakers PAN smoothly from front to back. The rest is a matter of preference. I choose dialog over maximum height in the front, for example and end to end coverage of the entire theater for all rows over "recommended" angles (not to mention how the room looks).



Links to these photos? All Auro theaters I've ever seen have the front speakers behind the screen and the heights at the top (Imax Enhanced does this as well). Only with Atmos installs have I seen the first set of overheads well outside the screen plane. For example, this Auro-3D cinema diagram shows the heights above all the bed speakers save the red VOG ceiling speakers.





My problem with putting speakers in front of the screen is that the sound imaging is also shifted in front of the screen plane. I've compared this personally between having my mains in front of my screen or along side it on the bookshelves. The overall sound was muddied on the bookshelf (due to a shelf reflection below it), but the imaging shifted dramatically when you could A/B compare (I had both locations set up simultaneously with the A/B speaker selector able to instantly switch between them. Angles aren't everything. Again, they're for smooth panning. The problem with Auro is that it doesn't use front/rear combos except in 13.1 and even then it duplicates side height with rear height at the cinema. Atmos mixes with ceiling speakers well in front of the screen so it doesn't really come into play there as much (i.e. they don't expect the front row of overheads to be at the screen or right above the front mains like Auro-3D does. You CAN put them there and not contradict the layout using "height" and putting overheads in line with the main L/R channels at home and this makes a good combined layout normally. My room stretches too long so I either have to duplicate side/rear or use the same middle extracted sound to get coverage for all three rows. Given the Auro theaters DO duplicate the sides with the rears (in a 11.1 theater it's EXACTLY like my home layout that's in a 9.1 config), I'd say it's OK to do so and very much like their pre-Auromax theaters.



The 3-layer design is not even recommended by Auro for most home setups as the ceiling is too low to get any real benefit from it other than locking the image into place. You would need a 9+ foot ceiling to get a noticeable improvement over a phantom VOG.
Max, I don't mean to call you out personally (whether you deserve it, or not) but what do you gain by feeling offended when someone points out a potential problem with an installation you've taken, or to put a finer point on it, why find it necessary to defend a defenseless position? We're all here to learn. None of this, of course, alters the point of my prior post. Readers here get it. You want to do things your way. Who cares?
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post #6041 of 6397 Old 11-14-2018, 07:30 PM
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Max, I don't mean to call you out personally (whether you deserve it, or not) but what do you gain by feeling offended when someone points out a potential problem with an installation you've taken, or to put a finer point on it, why find it necessary to defend a defenseless position? We're all here to learn. None of this, of course, alters the point of my prior post. Readers here get it. You want to do things your way. Who cares?
The only thing defenseless here is the underlined bits above clearly meant to insult me. It was clear to me that you didn't understand where those numbers came from and how stereo phantom imaging works and worse yet, it is now clear to me that you DON'T WANT TO.

I spent quite some time trying to show you WHY things are done the way they are and where those numbers come from and how you can work around them in various room configurations with multiple rows of seating and still get great results, but all you apparently know how to do is read the 1-2-3 recommended instructions and then insult the person trying to explain 4 overheads do not image the same as 6 overheads and moving speakers inward with multiple rows only robs the other rows of proper imaging behind them and not every room can have speakers in the ceiling for whatever reason, but you can work around the problem with extra overheads or even side heights if the room isn't too wide. Wilfried Van Baelen, founder of Auro-3D has said exactly that (that Atmos still sounds great on an Auro-3D layout, but the reverse may not be true). STAY ignorant for all I care. I'm done wasting my time with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6042 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 05:17 AM
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The only thing defenseless here is the underlined bits above clearly meant to insult me. It was clear to me that you didn't understand where those numbers came from and how stereo phantom imaging works and worse yet, it is now clear to me that you DON'T WANT TO.

I spent quite some time trying to show you WHY things are done the way they are and where those numbers come from and how you can work around them in various room configurations with multiple rows of seating and still get great results, but all you apparently know how to do is read the 1-2-3 recommended instructions and then insult the person trying to explain 4 overheads do not image the same as 6 overheads and moving speakers inward with multiple rows only robs the other rows of proper imaging behind them and not every room can have speakers in the ceiling for whatever reason, but you can work around the problem with extra overheads or even side heights if the room isn't too wide. Wilfried Van Baelen, founder of Auro-3D has said exactly that (that Atmos still sounds great on an Auro-3D layout, but the reverse may not be true). STAY ignorant for all I care. I'm done wasting my time with you. Welcome to my ignore list.
I use a 2.35:1 wide screen so my front L-R heights are are mounted on pivoting brackets on the side walls to the left and right of the screen aiming at the right angle but about three feet to the left and right mains and about a foot behind them.

I was able compensate for the wide spread of the front heights by adding a center "height" (not duplicating the center speaker) above the main center and left and right wide axis speakers giving me a wide front stage without obliterating Auro3Ds sound effect.

That is what I like the most about Auro3d it is flexible and tweak-able enough that you don't have to be in complete spec to have a very enjoyable listening experience.

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post #6043 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 06:20 AM
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There's a list in this very thread if you go back a dozen or so pages (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56673452). Most of them are region free (Inferno here says Region B,C, but I rip/encode for KODI to play off a hard drive (so much better than looking for discs and I can use them all around the house in several rooms) so it doesn't matter to me whether it works in the LG player I have or not). You have to buy them from overseas, though, but that's pretty easy given most are available on Amazon sites (i.e. to use Amazon Germany, for example you just login with your US account and it moves everything over to order from there automatically; same for UK, France, etc. Only a few sites like Amazon Japan do not). I've found getting some 3D movies are cheaper from the UK even with shipping than from the US when available here (due to strong dollar, etc.)
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For music there is this list: https://surround-sound.info/3d-sound...l&alle&1&3&0&1

Plus the Auro 3d Auromatic upmixer seems to make good use of the VOG channel I get sound up there all the time so the VOG channel does not have to be encoded into the mix to get use out of it. I have to climb a ladder to get my head near them to discern what is coming out of them but that is the way it should be.
Is there a list of movies that are available for the US?
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post #6044 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 08:15 AM
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There are no Auro-3D native releases in the US that I'm aware of.

Most of these formats are fairly flexible. Even the founder of Auro-3D thinks Atmos sounds better on the Auro layout (of course you could argue he has a reason to say that). Personally, I think Auro would do OK on an Atmos layout as long as the ceiling isn't high and the overheads aren't miles away from the equivalent bed speakers. Perhaps not ideal, but probably better than some would have you think and probably better than just using 5.1 instead (although the DTS Neural X might be preferable to some). It's largely academic since Auro titles seem to be drying up.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6045 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 12:37 PM
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Finding Auro-3D stuff in the US is at zero right now. There are a couple of 4k Blu-rays you can get from Amazon overseas, like "Pixel" from their British site or "Spiderman Homecoming" from Germany. Takes a little while with standard shipping, but - not expensive at all, unless you go for the express shipping.
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post #6046 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 03:12 PM
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Finding Auro-3D stuff in the US is at zero right now. There are a couple of 4k Blu-rays you can get from Amazon overseas, like "Pixel" from their British site or "Spiderman Homecoming" from Germany. Takes a little while with standard shipping, but - not expensive at all, unless you go for the express shipping.
I'd say a few more than a "couple" (I own 10 native Auro-3D movies and one music video disc so far plus the Auro-3D vol.2 sampler). There's at least a half dozen more I really wasn't interested in. There's a list of them some pages back.... What bothers me is the lack of "new" titles lately. It's a shame they can't at least make a deal to have Auro-3D mixes added to otherwise "5.1" Blu-Rays (still lots of those being made including 3D ones). I think overall I'd prefer Atmos/X mixes since they use the rear speakers, but then if there were more Auro mixes, I'd go ahead and add the overhead VOG speaker (already have the extra amp channel ready and waiting for it).

My official totals right now for "Immersive" native mixes on DISC (not counting recent ATV free 'upgrades' which added Atmos to some discs that didn't have it at all) are:

34 Atmos
16 DTS X
11 Auro-3D

As "badly" as Auro-3D is supposedly doing, it's almost odd just how few of the other titles I have so far (In fact, without the Harry Potter 4K boxset, I'd have less DTS X mixes right now than Auro-3D). I almost kind of wish Auro-3D would get support in Europe and DTS in the US so all three formats could survive and we could mail order our choice.

Click THEATER (Updated: May-22-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 8-26-19)
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post #6047 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 04:41 PM
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Is there a list of movies that are available for the US?
Like others said nothing for the US Dolby Atmos has the lions share in the US, Auro3d is bigger in Europe and some in Japan, I remember reading a while back that Sony was going to be using Auro3d but have not much yet.

You can scroll down to near the bottom of this page to find some with links but they are imports you need to either make sure they are your region , region free, you have a region free Blu Ray player so like some here rip them to your server taking out the region coding. Also for some reason European Amazon's no longer ship these movies to the US at least the ones that I have tried to get says they wont ship to the US during check out making it much harder to get them.

https://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/experience/

Amazon US has a few titles and you can find a few on Ebay, I recently purchased Pixels steelbook Auro3d version for $12 and Spiderman Homecoming Auro3d 13.1 steelbook for $37 for example.


On the bright side Atmos encodes sound awesome using Auro3d, Jupiter Ascending is one of my go to demo disks, it is just phenomenal sounding.

Just go back a page to the two videos I posted to get an idea of how Auro3d does with Atmos encodes.

Out of curiosity anyone able to find the Auro3d version of Jumanji anyplace?

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post #6048 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post
I remember reading a while back that Sony was going to be using Auro3d but have not much yet.
https://hdguru.com/sony-pictures-to-...sound-support/
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post #6049 of 6397 Old 11-15-2018, 05:16 PM
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This was the last updated list, I believe: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post56673452

With Amazon in Europe, you have to watch who you buy something from in regards to whether they will ship a title to the USA or not. Typically, Amazon themselves will ship titles here, but independent sellers often will not. Most listings have multiple sellers and it doesn't always default to Amazon. I didn't have any trouble (at the time at least) getting any titles here from Amazon. I got Inferno from Australia through eBay (I think it's Region B locked, however, but it ripped/encoded just fine). The only one left I was still considering, really is Ghostbusters (2016), but I already have the Atmos mix for 4K (and now 2K thanks to rip/encode) and neither version (Atmos or Auro) works for the 3D version since they're on the Extended versions and the 3D version is the theatrical version so that's kind of a bummer either way. You also have to be able to rip 4K to get the Atmos track off either one (since both Atmos and Auro are on the 4K discs with that one AFAIK).

I got Jumanji from Amazon France as a 3-way combo (4K/2K/3D), Pixels and Flatliners from Amazon UK, Dark Tower, Passengers, Red Tails, Spiderman and Johnny Mnemonic from Amazon Germany. I got Blade Runner 3rd hand from someone on here (originally from Poland) and Inferno from eBay Australia. I got Lichtmond 3 from Russia (think it turned out to be a boot, though).

Sony made a deal with Auro-3D to release 10 titles on Blu-Ray of some kind. I believe at least 9 of those 10 have already been released.... Whether they will release anymore again, who knows. I wouldn't count on it. I've read at least some of the Auro-3D theaters in the USA are being converted to DTSX instead (it can use their same layout with minimal changes) so perhaps that speaks something about the amount of titles Auro will NOT be able to get in the future theatrically? Up until now, they've had much better luck getting cinematic releases in Auro-3D and more recently Auromax. Auromax, however isn't much different from DTS X (even the base codec is the same open source one) and given DTS X's "flexibility" to play over either speaker setup (which may only in reality mean their willingness to ALLOW those configurations in an AVR), I'm not sure how much it really matters if only DTS survives of those two in the long run and even that may be in question in the extreme long run given Atmos is the choice for streaming thus far.

DTS X is at least still releasing new titles on BD and supposedly has Imax Enhanced to come yet, but I think the last time I looked they have less than 1/3 the titles Atmos has on disc, let alone streaming and I think only two major studios have been using them (Warner Brothers and Universal) and Universal has Atmos on some "same" titles (e.g. Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom is in Atmos on iTunes streaming despite being in DTS X on BD, which does at least allow you to compare them, but I'm guessing they have the same master mix regardless). I do find it interesting in the reverse, however that the second two "Divergent" movies have Atmos sound on BD, but the new 4K release of the first movie has DTS X instead of Atmos (just picked it up for that reason since the old version had only DTS 7.1).

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post #6050 of 6397 Old 11-17-2018, 09:29 PM
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I did a lot more testing with different Auro-3D configurations here (1> True Auro-3D 9.0 layout, 2> True Auro-3D + Rear Height, 3> Auro-3D with Extracted Top Middle + Rear Height and 4> Neural X upmixing).

1> was good for MLP (front row) and very similar sounding to 2> from the MLP, although 2> might have been a bit more convincing in the rear of the room for the jet flyby and helicopter demo. It was surprising just how far back into the room the flyover effects could go from positions BEHIND the side surround/height speakers (way further than you might think, well past the sides of the chair in the middle row (surrounds in front of chair to the sides) and almost alongside from the 3rd row.

2> was great from any row with all flybys going overhead and behind. The Amsterdam center was pretty convincing from all seats. Lower rear surround would have been nice (a speaker box with copy to rear would probably work well).

3> This was a surprise. This is basically using my Atmos/X top middle extraction that's sent to the side height channels with rear heights to the rear height speakers. I think it may have actually sounded best of all. The jet flybys were utterly convincing with smooth panning the whole way back and the same for the helicopters in reverse. The city center sounded good (couldn't tell anything was amiss) and the tractor pass was stunning.

Frankly, I'm thinking the speaker selector may have been a waste of time since #3 sounds so good with Auro-3D decoding and using 1 and 2 requires switching the Onkyo units to bypass so the in-phase material is extracted (3-4 button presses depending on whether rear heights are used or not).

4> Neural X does a pretty credible imitation of Auro-3D. It doesn't put everything in the right height locations, but I would say if you have a 6012 or other model that doesn't have Auro-3D, it would do a good job with the movies bed soundtrack creating a reasonable facsimile.

I also tested some Lichtmond 3 material that's in native Auro-3D. I'm not sold on the music, but the surround use is great.
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post #6051 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post

3> This was a surprise. This is basically using my Atmos/X top middle extraction that's sent to the side height channels with rear heights to the rear height speakers. I think it may have actually sounded best of all. The jet flybys were utterly convincing with smooth panning the whole way back and the same for the helicopters in reverse. The city center sounded good (couldn't tell anything was amiss) and the tractor pass was stunning.
I'm waiting for the works finished and just going to buy the 8500 and the lot of speakers. My design has always been for the "canonical" Atmos and Auro-3D speakers positions, using speaker selector switches, but after your tests I wonder if it is worthwhile or better find a good enough compromise to use same speakers for Atmos and Auro-3D.

Please, could you explain in detail how you configured the 3> ? What Auro-3D config settings going to what Speaker positions?

Did you used TM speaker positions (from Atmos) for the Auro-3D Surround Heigh? Instead of them or in parallel with them?

I dont fully understand how you did it and I'm very interested as I'm planning to build more or less the same as you with speaker selector switches.
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post #6052 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 04:35 AM
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I'm using a Marantz 7012. It's 11 channels maximum. Thus, I'm using two Onkyo Dolby Pro Logic surround decoders (used from eBay) to "extract" a top middle set of channels by using front height + rear height into its L/R inputs and using its 3-channel mode to create a "center" channel on each unit that is between front height and rear height. Call it middle height or call it Top Middle. It's just a label. This will work with any decoder because it's not dependent on the Marantz unit to "allow" it or disallow it. It actually passes the 9.1.6 test for top middle (i.e. Only those speakers play, at least audibly when they're supposed to). It also gets around the 11-channel DTS limit, again since the AVR has no idea it's happening. The AVR is just set to front height + rear height.

This is all covered in the "Beyond 7.1.4" thread.

I use an active mixer to create matrixed front wides using front + side. Extracting units can be used here also for almost discrete output as well. They take up some space, however and if you want Audyssey for those channels, prepare to buy two extra AVRs for each set of channels that support it or use mini dsp units. You'll need amplification as well one way or another (Onkyo have it built in as do AVRs).

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post #6053 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 08:50 AM
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FYI:

I found this site https://www.gucca.dk/ it is a Danish site so you will need to use a translator but they ship to the US and I was able order both Jumanji 2 and Dark Tower Auro3D Blu Ray versions.

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post #6054 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post
FYI:

I found this site https://www.gucca.dk/ it is a Deutsch site so you will need to use a translator but they ship to the US and I was able order both Jumanji 2 and Dark Tower Auro3D Blu Ray versions.
It's Danish not Dutch in case people try the wrong translator.

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post #6055 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 09:21 AM
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Some of us don't need a translator to use German sites (although that site appears to be Danish; German is .DE not .DK). 😉 (It seems my college classes in German had a use, after all other than ordering food when I was in Belgium briefly.) Google Chrome does a pretty good job with most sites, though. Amazon Germany has an English language option, however.

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post #6056 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I did a lot more testing with different Auro-3D configurations here (1> True Auro-3D 9.0 layout, 2> True Auro-3D + Rear Height, 3> Auro-3D with Extracted Top Middle + Rear Height and 4> Neural X upmixing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I'm using a Marantz 7012. It's 11 channels maximum. Thus, I'm using two Onkyo Dolby Pro Logic surround decoders (used from eBay) to "extract" a top middle set of channels by using front height + rear height into its L/R inputs and using its 3-channel mode to create a "center" channel on each unit that is between front height and rear height. Call it middle height or call it Top Middle. It's just a label. This will work with any decoder because it's not dependent on the Marantz unit to "allow" it or disallow it. It actually passes the 9.1.6 test for top middle (i.e. Only those speakers play, at least audibly when they're supposed to). It also gets around the 11-channel DTS limit, again since the AVR has no idea it's happening. The AVR is just set to front height + rear height.

This is all covered in the "Beyond 7.1.4" thread.

I use an active mixer to create matrixed front wides using front + side. Extracting units can be used here also for almost discrete output as well. They take up some space, however and if you want Audyssey for those channels, prepare to buy two extra AVRs for each set of channels that support it or use mini dsp units. You'll need amplification as well one way or another (Onkyo have it built in as do AVRs).
Sorry I didn't make the question properly.

I already know how you do the TM extraction with the second/third Onkyo prologic AVRs.

Whay I wanted to know is how you have setup your configuration 3> Auro-3D with Extracted Top Middle + Rear Height

I understand you setup the "official" Auro-3D heigh channels Front Height and Surround Height and direct them to the speakers located at Atmos position TM (with the extracted channels with the Onkyo's from the Marantz 7012 FH and RH) and to the Rear Height (coming from the same speaker output RH from the 7012 ?)

So, Auro-3d FH --> TM (channel extraction) and Auro-3D SH --> RH

I.e. the Auro-3D heigh layer is a little backward with respect to the "canonical" position, But this is good for your MLP position at first seats row and specially better for your second and third row seats.

Am I right?
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post #6057 of 6397 Old 11-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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No no no. I never use "surround height" settings (I've tried it early on, but discovered the inevitable). Auro-3D is channel based. It makes not one whit of difference if you set the AVR to surround height or rear height, only where you connect/place the speakers. Setting it to Surround Height will only deny Atmos rear channel access. I mean I could use it since I'm not using Audyssey at the moment. I would just have to change the amp assign, but it would sound identical to using the rear height setting. The speaker selector connects rear height channel output to the side height speakers.

So the extracted Auro setup uses the same setup as Atmos, just using the Auro decoder instead. The "surround height" speaker is basically split between it and the front with the middle at the side height location and surround height or rear output if you like sent to the rear height speaker. The rear bed speakers are still silent in this setup. You could copy or even split the sides (with another pro logic unit) and use a speaker selector to send it to the rear (e.g. "wides" at sides with sides at rear with the speaker selector letting you change their positions). But I found just having rear heights active with Auro-3D helped for the back two rows.
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post #6058 of 6397 Old 11-20-2018, 12:30 AM
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I finally watched Red Tails in Auro-3D (I had to use the BD since I haven't found a way to get KODI to play Auro-3D using its PCM tracks). I have to say it was pretty sweet sounding with the overhead channel use. I watched Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban right before it in DTS:X and it had pretty sweet overhead (and wide use for that matter), but the sheer amount of planes flying overhead in Red Tails was insane. Even though my Center Height is phantom imaged, you could just tell when they made use of it as a LOT of stuff went to that spot on the screen or flew right across the top of the screen.

I watched the first 10 minutes with a 9.0 (plus matrixed wides) setup and then added the rear heights with the speaker selector (drive side heights plus rear in parallel) so I could compare the usage around the room across multiple rows. Enabling the rear heights only added a little more depth into the room for the front row (planes flew a little further back than without), but for the 2nd and 3rd row seats it made a huge difference with planes flying all the way to the back of the room overhead. Between the two movies, I tend to think the 2nd row has the best surround sound (more ceiling length for overhead effects in front to "stretch out" more and yet another 7 feet behind for things to fly right on by into the back of the room still). Clearly, the screen looks considerably larger in the front row, though so it's a toss up. The rear row has crazy long surround effects (but only goes slightly behind there since the chair is only 1.5 feet in front of the rear speakers and with Auro-3D the lower rear surrounds aren't used). I think the screen looks about 72" from the rear row (relatively speaking comapred to the view of the 92" screen from the front row) and perhaps 82" from the center row. I think a 2.35:1 screen of the same height would look great from the back row (maybe with the next projector).

In any case, as I mentioned in another thread, the key here to really kicking the immersion up a notch was to increase all the height speakers output 1dB each. It doesn't sound like much, somehow it really blended the height channels into the beds more (rain in the Atmos demo for example sounded like it was right in front of my face in the 2nd row as well as overhead. Maybe it's because I'm using heights (including side heights), but the effects definitely became much more "ceiling noticeable" in all three rows as well. I would never have guessed watching Red Tails there were not speakers on the ceiling in the top middle position. Fighter planes flew all over the ceiling area.

I still can't help but think it's a shame Auro-3D isn't taking off. Red Tails was mixed FOR Auro-3D (unlike some of the Sony titles that sound like a single master was used) and you can really tell they went nuts with overhead usage (clearly putting Top Surround (VOG), Center Height and the front and surround height speakers to heavy usage. Most of the Atmos stuff I've tried so far seem to avoid in-phase height information to some extent (that would pass through center height or VOG territory). Annihilation (which I watched yesterday) went crazy in some places with "all over" sounds, but they moved so quick they were hard to place at times and it felt more "around the sides of the ceiling" than directly overhead to me. But then The Fast and the Furious (DTS:X) had minimal overhead usage (it is a car movie after all), but definitely pushed the front wide area heavily (I wondered why the wides seemed quieter lately and I was starting to think the active mixer/matrix effect wasn't worth it until I discovered when I connected up the 7012 a few weeks ago I plugged the front pre-out RCA cords into the wrong RCA plugs (they were actually in the 7ch INPUT area) and thus the wides were only outputting half the signal...OOPS). Now suddenly the wides are VERY noticeable even only being matrixed. Strangely, they seem to get more usage thus far from the DTS:X titles I've been playing (both Harry Potter and Fast and the Furious had sounds in that vicinity quite often) whereas Atmos less so (could be due to that stupid "snap to" function that puts the sounds in the fronts instead of letting them image (even phantom is better than nothing) where they should be. I don't want to draw conclusions too soon, though. These are mostly early observations. This is the most movies I've watched in a short period since connecting the system (mostly testing and tweaking until the past week).
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post #6059 of 6397 Old 11-22-2018, 04:34 PM
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I'm about to purchase a Denon X4500H, I have a 5.2.4 setup with 4 ceiling speakers. I know my speaker layout is incompatible with Auro-3D content, but can I still use the Auro-3D Auro-Matic upmixer for 5.1/7.1 content so my ceiling speakers get used?
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post #6060 of 6397 Old 11-22-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
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I'm about to purchase a Denon X4500H, I have a 5.2.4 setup with 4 ceiling speakers. I know my speaker layout is incompatible with Auro-3D content, but can I still use the Auro-3D Auro-Matic upmixer for 5.1/7.1 content so my ceiling speakers get used?
It's "officially" incompatible. The solution to running either on your setup is to set your speaker layout to "front height + rear height" instead of "top front + top rear", at least when using the Auro-3D modes. That will then use both speakers. Unless you have a really high ceiling (>9ft), I think Atmos layouts work better than some would have you believe for Auro-3D content. Certainly, the reverse is true at least for relatively narrow rooms (mine is 12x24 feet). I'm using side height speakers + front height + rear height and Atmos sounds fine and still images on the ceiling in the middle, etc. If you run Audyssey and still want to use "top" settings for Atmos and/or DTS, you'll need to save the configs on a USB stick for each setup separately. If you're OK with the height setting on your ceiling speakers for Atmos and/or X, you can use just the one configuration.
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