The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 211 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6301 of 6406 Old 05-13-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
If it upmixes well in Auro's upmixer, it'll probably upmix even better with Neural X.

It's sad. You'd think they'd at least have some Chinese Auro-3D titles on BD or something this year. I only see music discs. The format truly appears to be dead. It's too bad. Competition is good and the CH/TS (VOG) combo meant more overhead sound than typical Crapmos mixes that barely use the overheads at all.

Atmos can image in those locations too but rarely does since the are phantom locations and many sound mixing guys haven't seemed to embrace the concept yet that you can put the sound where you want it and the system will take care if it. I hear far too many mixes that image right at the speakers and rarely anywhere else except perhaps to pan through a location.

I think the mixing software shouldn't even show possible speaker locations. That puts the old timers right back in the 5.1 mindset.
Yes or even more European releases with Auro3d since it is more popular there and you would figure with all those movies being released theaters with Auro3d tracks it would be easy to transfer them to disc.

As it is now I only have one left to collect, Texas Chainsaw Massacre and I have seen it in a couple places but it is so overpriced, I just can't bring myself to spend $100+ for a 4k movie.
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post #6302 of 6406 Old 05-13-2019, 06:26 PM
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Well, it's been almost a year since the last "major" movie release in Auro-3D (not counting the two foreign language titles), so I'm not counting any chickens until they hatch. Their web site seems dead. There are hardly any updates and the only big thing announced on Facebook was a deal with Chinese television, which "might" keep them alive for awhile, but if they can't bring even ONE Auro-3D title to the US.... It's not looking good. The sad thing is they were FIRST and couldn't manage to do a damn thing with that head start.
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post #6303 of 6406 Old 05-14-2019, 05:53 PM
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At least for the time being, I think we've reached a point of market saturation for the demand of better quality and further enhanced sound formats. For most of BD's life, DTS-M seemed to be ahead with Dolby TrueHD running a close second. Since the introduction of immersive techs, Dolby's Atmos got out the gate first and has been way in the lead over DTS-X ever since, Auro is unheard of in the US except for a few of us lunatic Videophiles. IMO it's all over for Auros, and the long range outlook for DTS-X isn't much better.

I hate to say it but maybe it's just as well. I'm sure many here could argue for the technical superiority of one over the other. But rather than have them all fail maybe it would be be best for the sound engineers to just concentrate on one and learn to mix it in the best possible way.
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post #6304 of 6406 Old 05-14-2019, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
At least for the time being, I think we've reached a point of market saturation for the demand of better quality and further enhanced sound formats. For most of BD's life, DTS-M seemed to be ahead with Dolby TrueHD running a close second. Since the introduction of immersive techs, Dolby's Atmos got out the gate first and has been way in the lead over DTS-X ever since, Auro is unheard of in the US except for a few of us lunatic Videophiles. IMO it's all over for Auros, and the long range outlook for DTS-X isn't much better.

I hate to say it but maybe it's just as well. I'm sure many here could argue for the technical superiority of one over the other. But rather than have them all fail maybe it would be be best for the sound engineers to just concentrate on one and learn to mix it in the best possible way.
Let the rants begin, LOL
I think Auro could quickly take over the entire market with the 13.1 version IF they make every release AMAZING. Because I have to tell you that I've been freaking UNDERWHELMED by most Atmos and X releases. The whole point is overhead content and yet it's missing almost entirely throughout I don't know how many movies. Why even release it in one of those formats if you're not going to actually USE the overhead channels??? It boggles the mind. It truly does. If every release were like Red Tails, Jumanji, Overlord and Crimson Peak and the Harry Potter series, I'd say Yahoooo. But they're not. Most of them sound better with Neural X upmixes.... that's sad. SAD. I hate to say it, but it's clear most of these soundmixing types have no idea what they're doing with these new formats. JUNK release after junk release after MEH release. Even Groundhog Day (a movie I expect like NO surround sound on did a better job the vast majority; at least it made me feel I was outside, etc. in the scenes. You can tell that mixing guy was doing his absolute best with what he had. It's sad that entire action/sci-fi movies have crap soundtracks or WEAK overhead sound like they're not full range channels. I shouldn't have to turn them up 6dB to hear the spaceship overhead and it's clear with some releases and the Atmos demos, they CAN sound great, but they seem to be mixing for soundbars or something....
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post #6305 of 6406 Old 05-15-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I think Auro could quickly take over the entire market with the 13.1 version IF they make every release AMAZING. Because I have to tell you that I've been freaking UNDERWHELMED by most Atmos and X releases. The whole point is overhead content and yet it's missing almost entirely throughout I don't know how many movies. Why even release it in one of those formats if you're not going to actually USE the overhead channels??? It boggles the mind. It truly does. If every release were like Red Tails, Jumanji, Overlord and Crimson Peak and the Harry Potter series, I'd say Yahoooo. But they're not. Most of them sound better with Neural X upmixes.... that's sad. SAD. I hate to say it, but it's clear most of these soundmixing types have no idea what they're doing with these new formats. JUNK release after junk release after MEH release. Even Groundhog Day (a movie I expect like NO surround sound on did a better job the vast majority; at least it made me feel I was outside, etc. in the scenes. You can tell that mixing guy was doing his absolute best with what he had. It's sad that entire action/sci-fi movies have crap soundtracks or WEAK overhead sound like they're not full range channels. I shouldn't have to turn them up 6dB to hear the spaceship overhead and it's clear with some releases and the Atmos demos, they CAN sound great, but they seem to be mixing for soundbars or something....
I think it must be a matter of Return of Investment, as it is for almost everything in industry/economics.

How expensive could be to engage a good mixer/artist that really does a very good job? And how much market demand there really is for very good immersive tracks?

Is that market demand only we, lunatic audiophiles? while the big resources goes to market Atmos on TVs, mobiles or Soundbars?
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post #6306 of 6406 Old 05-15-2019, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AYanguas View Post
I think it must be a matter of Return of Investment, as it is for almost everything in industry/economics.

How expensive could be to engage a good mixer/artist that really does a very good job? And how much market demand there really is for very good immersive tracks?

Is that market demand only we, lunatic audiophiles? while the big resources goes to market Atmos on TVs, mobiles or Soundbars?
Given the way Auro got a reputation for being good with music pretty quickly with no advertising, I'd say word of mouth spreads quickly for a truly GREAT product (and there's no reason DTS:X coulnd't do the same, etc.) I simply think Atmos is the "lazy" format now that it's pretty sure of itself controlling most of the market. That leaves the smaller guys to outdo them with superior products. They don't have superior formats (although one could argue DTS:X Pro is a lot closer to Atmos, better in an upmixing sense even if they'd ever get around to releasing it) so the one thing they COULD do is a BETTER product (i.e. mix). If DTS:X mixes were all fantastic while half the Atmos tracks suck, they'd quickly gain attention, IMO (and more likely to succeed than Auro-3D for sure). But letting releases like The Big Lebowski out that sound barely like stereo doesn't help their case any, IMO. You can blame it on the studios (they probably use their own people), but that's where someone like DTS:X needs to step in.

They could have their chance with Imax Enhanced. Make sure the product is noticeably superior to the existing BD/UHDs that may already have Atmos on them. Maybe it will be just a niche product, but sometimes niche products have a way of growing and surpassing the leader because everyone know they're BETTER. Of course, to do this they actually need to release some product first.... Where the heck is Venom??? They promised months ago that would be the first major movie release in Imax Enhanced and there's no sign of it.... The year is almost half over. A couple of documentaries in Imax Enhanced...that not only doesn't cut it, it actually ticks some people off who have since already written the format off before a single movie has come out. In other words, they've already mishandled it. You can't announced a supposedly superior product that promises IMAX Ratios and perhaps a better sound mix without filtered bass (as many releases are starting to have) and then just disappear for 9 months with nary a word.... Yeah, I've already written it off myself too. It's a big NOTHING for the simple reason NOTHING is what they're producing just like Auro-3D.

It's sad because it's just not that hard to do better than the average Atmos tracks, IMO. Most barely use the overheads. Most still follow the old "at the speaker" formula with most of the surround effects coming from straight off to the side with the occasional rear effect instead of "immersing you" all around all the time. You listen to the AMAZE demo and you think THAT is what I want to hear in a movie like Predator. Birds taking off and flying right overhead so I feel like I'm really outside. Instead, you get something like Annihilation in Atmos whereby they're outside most of the movie and yet you RARELY hear outside sounds except from the front. Yes, it uses special effects and weird synth sounds all over the place, but how about some actual REALISM? WTF is the point of "immersive audio" if it doesn't actually IMMERSE?

I actually hold Groundhog Day up as one of the best Atmos soundtracks even though there's not much overhead use, etc. because the one thing it DOES DO is IMMERSE the best it can! The outside scenes actually sound like you're outside. The sound effects are almost distracting in some regards, but to me that's what it should be. The sounds around you in a busy city square (like the Auro-3D demo plays) is what you hear in real life if you're there. Those sounds don't just MUTE because someone is talking to you! But that's what movies do! Atmospheric soundtracks promised a more life-like sound and so far MOST of them haven't delivered on that. I can count on two hands the numbers of truly EXCELLENT Atmos/X/Auro mixes (and I do include Auro because Red Tails was awesome and only in 5.1 elsewhere).

There's this notion that to tell a story it doesn't have to be "realistic". Well in that case, I don't need Atmos, X or Auro-3D sound now do I? Because if you're not going to utilize them properly, then there's almost no point to them at all, IMO.

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post #6307 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 10:23 AM
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13.4 auro3d
9.4.4 dolby atmos





https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/s...Listening-Room

Dr. Floyd Toole
I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant. This is where timbre matching of fronts and surrounds is most critical. Movie surround effects are more tolerant.
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post #6308 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 01:03 PM
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^^^ Toole doesn't appear to have much separation between layers....

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post #6309 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 02:22 PM
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Those mains are upside down, so the tweeters are on the bottom.
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post #6310 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 03:44 PM
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Those mains are upside down, so the tweeters are on the bottom.
Not all directional sound comes from the tweeters and they're still mounted a bit high, even so, but I suppose it's not much different from my dialog lift effect that moves the image up towards the middle of the screen, although he has his center below the screen so that will only increase the weirdness unless it's rigged for a center height dialog lift. I dunno. Somehow I expected more from a god's setup. Maybe less is more.

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post #6311 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 04:58 PM
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Dr. Floyd Toole
I choose to add moderate up-mixing to most of my stereo music, finding the adjustable Auro-3D implementation in the SDP-75 to be quite pleasant.
Auro-Matic is adjusted to be very subtle in that system. When applied to stereo music, you don't hear the added reverb nor the surround & height speakers. It just sounds like a taller/wider soundstage, with stable phantom imaging stretching well outside the front L/R speakers.

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post #6312 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 05:09 PM
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So does an active mixer "matrixed" effect of Front Wides + Front Height (and doesn't use any reverb to worry about hearing). It closely resembles Sonic Holography or SRS. I use the former on my other system so I know what it sounds like. I've also got Auromatic. I don't care for it, even for music. I use 6-speaker matrixed "stereo" with PSB speakers in my home theater. It sounds very close to my Carver Ribbon system with Sonic Holography. I knew I liked the Stratus Golds back in 1995 when I almost bought them instead. It's that extra imaging width/depth that they were missing until now.

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post #6313 of 6406 Old 05-19-2019, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Somehow I expected more from a god's setup. Maybe less is more.
It's a multi-purpose room which generally means some compromises will be made, just like all of us make (all of us who don't build a single purpose room from the ground up). There's no doubt a higher ceiling would allow an increase in separation. He's probably pretty close to the minimum 25 degree spec.
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post #6314 of 6406 Old 05-30-2019, 02:49 PM
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FYI; on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre Auro3d 4K version, it was the last one I needed for my Auro 3d movie collection but did not understand why it was so expensive, well it turns out, if what what I was told is true, that it was a limited run only 5000 copies were ever made.

So if you were lucky enough to get your hands on one for a good price good for you!

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post #6315 of 6406 Old 06-02-2019, 06:38 AM
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It's a multi-purpose room which generally means some compromises will be made, just like all of us make (all of us who don't build a single purpose room from the ground up). There's no doubt a higher ceiling would allow an increase in separation. He's probably pretty close to the minimum 25 degree spec.
his preference to setup auro to listen to everything shows many
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post #6316 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Auro-Matic is adjusted to be very subtle in that system. When applied to stereo music, you don't hear the added reverb nor the surround & height speakers. It just sounds like a taller/wider soundstage, with stable phantom imaging stretching well outside the front L/R speakers.
Have you heard this system in person? I am struggling to find a good setting adjusting the upmixing. Manily because the setting is not on the fly. I set the setting wait a few seconds and the music comes back on.
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post #6317 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 12:43 PM
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Have you heard this system in person? I am struggling to find a good setting adjusting the upmixing. Manily because the setting is not on the fly. I set the setting wait a few seconds and the music comes back on.


I’m wondering this also. The LFE boost from
The upmixer is significant. Raising the sub trim from -9 to 0.0 and using Auromatic at level 12-15 is massive. Wondering what the boost in dB is also for all channels is. I notice with level 15 just the non LFE can be lowered by 10db to match DSU levels (e.g. if I’m listening at -10 with Auromatic I’d need to lower to -20)


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post #6318 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 02:04 PM
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Have you heard this system in person?
Yes.

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post #6319 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 02:23 PM
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I’m wondering this also. The LFE boost from
The upmixer is significant. Raising the sub trim from -9 to 0.0 and using Auromatic at level 12-15 is massive. Wondering what the boost in dB is also for all channels is. I notice with level 15 just the non LFE can be lowered by 10db to match DSU levels (e.g. if I’m listening at -10 with Auromatic I’d need to lower to -20)
Yes, it boosts bass quite a bit. I don't care for it that much for music (I have to adjust bass downward). I actually kind of liked DSU for music, but I also made up a multi-channel stereo setting (adjusted manually the levels for all the speakers and then saved it in a smart memory button just for that purpose with movies on another button and plain stereo on a third one with average starting volumes where I want them, etc.

Truthfully, I use stereo most of the time for music (although in my hybrid matrixed system, 'stereo' means Matrixed Front Wides playing at partial volume along with some front heights playing a bit of stereo as well for my dialog lift effect, which raises the music imaging the mid-screen level as well (although in reality, it can image over a range depending on how its recorded). With the front wides on as well, I get a massive wide and layered sound stage (reminds me of my dipoles upstairs). I can turn off the extra speakers, but REW actually shows the averaged response to be smoother with them on and I think they sound better as well.
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post #6320 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawCPA View Post
I’m wondering this also. The LFE boost from
The upmixer is significant. Raising the sub trim from -9 to 0.0 and using Auromatic at level 12-15 is massive. Wondering what the boost in dB is also for all channels is. I notice with level 15 just the non LFE can be lowered by 10db to match DSU levels (e.g. if I’m listening at -10 with Auromatic I’d need to lower to -20)
You can expect more volume with Auro-Matic. I don't think this comes from boosting of the channels exactly, but from the fact it doesn't remove the original sound from the mains when it extracts/re-directs sound to the center and surround speakers--that's all added, and nothing is subtracted. With the strength cranked up it's also adding the generated sounds to the other speakers which have the highs rolled off to sound like reflections, so you're going to get more volume gain in the bass region--especially when the strength level is set high.



If you're using the DEQ, you may find lowering the reference level a little preferable, or try lower strength levels.
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post #6321 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
You can expect more volume with Auro-Matic. I don't think this comes from boosting of the channels exactly, but from the fact it doesn't remove the original sound from the mains when it extracts/re-directs sound to the center and surround speakers--that's all added, and nothing is subtracted. With the strength cranked up it's also adding the generated sounds to the other speakers which have the highs rolled off to sound like reflections, so you're going to get more volume gain in the bass region--especially when the strength level is set high.



If you're using the DEQ, you may find lowering the reference level a little preferable, or try lower strength levels.
If it doesn't remove them, it also adds them in bass management because all that extra bass isn't coming from my speakers, but the sub.

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post #6322 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 04:14 PM
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Yes, for anything added to another speaker, whether it comes from the sub or that speaker depends upon the bass management setting for that speaker.
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post #6323 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes.
Thanks for your observations. The posts about Dr. Toole's system have taught me a lot about audio as well as his books. Wish there were more info on upmixing from Auro and users.

As a side note on my Marantz AV7702MK2 I feel Auro upmixing takes away some of the soundstage of two channel stereo and there seems to be a noticeable roll off of the hight frequencies. However, it does add height and a 3d image that is a little different than just a stereo image. I still need to work with it more and will try to minimalist approach to the upmixing level and see how that works.
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post #6324 of 6406 Old 06-09-2019, 11:46 PM
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As far as auromatic being louder than DSU or stereo I have not found that to be true. With the Marantz Av7702mk2 when I was comparing stereo to auromatic (at full effect level), auromatc was approx 10db lower. I had to raise auromatic 10db to make it the same level as two channel stereo.
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post #6325 of 6406 Old 06-10-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesyates View Post
As far as auromatic being louder than DSU or stereo I have not found that to be true. With the Marantz Av7702mk2 when I was comparing stereo to auromatic (at full effect level), auromatc was approx 10db lower. I had to raise auromatic 10db to make it the same level as two channel stereo.
I don't know about the overall volume offhand, but at the same relative volume, the bass was considerably louder with Auromatic on here, at least with some albums. That was not the case with DSU or Neural X. Multi-channel stereo is a mess in that regard, though. I had to manually change all the levels and the 2-channel level versus overall levels so I didn't get blown away when switching modes at a given volume setting. I then saved them in smart memory.

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post #6326 of 6406 Old 06-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesyates View Post
As far as auromatic being louder than DSU or stereo I have not found that to be true. With the Marantz Av7702mk2 when I was comparing stereo to auromatic (at full effect level), auromatc was approx 10db lower. I had to raise auromatic 10db to make it the same level as two channel stereo.
Is this a new system you've just set up? Audyssey been run, etc? I don't know of anything that would cause this if everything is working properly. One thing that might have an effect like this is one or more speakers being out of phase. Check that your center channel isn't out of phase with your L&R. Just swap the connectors and see how it sounds. That would have an effect of giving a perceived lower volume and would really screw up the imaging. At the default settings/strength level, the imaging, etc, should be very similar between stereo and Auro-matic for most typical studio-recorded popular music.
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
Is this a new system you've just set up? Audyssey been run, etc? I don't know of anything that would cause this if everything is working properly. One thing that might have an effect like this is one or more speakers being out of phase. Check that your center channel isn't out of phase with your L&R. Just swap the connectors and see how it sounds. That would have an effect of giving a perceived lower volume and would really screw up the imaging. At the default settings/strength level, the imaging, etc, should be very similar between stereo and Auro-matic for most typical studio-recorded popular music.
No, it is not a new system and audyssey is running. I just checked speaker phase and all is well. What is the default setting for Auromatic? Mine goes from 0-16 on the Marantz.

Recently, due to SDURANI post and Dr. Toole practice I turned down the Auromatic to about 5 and have had amazing results. Less is more.
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post #6328 of 6406 Old 06-12-2019, 02:22 AM
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When I'm reading your descriptions about the Upmixer, I think it could sound a bit similar to the Logic7 upmixer, or even a bit more similar then the DSU or Nerual:X upmixers.
What are you thinking about? Actually I'm using always Logic7, for music and for movies. Compared to L7 sound the Dolby upmixer also very well, but he's a bit "thinner".
I'm missing this big and massive basementof Logic7.

Has anyone comared them or can confirm, that my thinking is right about Auro?
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post #6329 of 6406 Old 06-12-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by snickers01 View Post
When I'm reading your descriptions about the Upmixer, I think it could sound a bit similar to the Logic7 upmixer, or even a bit more similar then the DSU or Nerual:X upmixers.
I've been using Logic7 for 25 years in various Lex processors. Sounds closer to DSU & Neural:X. Auro-Matic sounds more like the ambience generation modes in Lex processors.
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post #6330 of 6406 Old 06-13-2019, 12:06 AM
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Thanks a lot for the response!

Hard to find an good replacement for my Harman, which doesn't cost's a fortune
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