The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 212 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6331 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 12:48 AM
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Guys, do you have any experience with Atmos/X/Auro when it comes to gaming?
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post #6332 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snickers01 View Post
When I'm reading your descriptions about the Upmixer, I think it could sound a bit similar to the Logic7 upmixer, or even a bit more similar then the DSU or Nerual:X upmixers.
What are you thinking about? Actually I'm using always Logic7, for music and for movies. Compared to L7 sound the Dolby upmixer also very well, but he's a bit "thinner".
I'm missing this big and massive basementof Logic7.

Has anyone comared them or can confirm, that my thinking is right about Auro?
For me the Auro3d is similar to the ambiance upmixer of the Yamaha DSP1, I used to run two of of those units for front and rear ambiance height channels before I switched to Auro3d, it is like an improved version of it.

I think Logic7 is more akin to Dobly Pro Logic IIx but from my testing cleaner and more accurate, it is a pretty amazing old tech.

I recently found a great deal on a JBL Synthesis SDP-3 which I am now using its Logic7 to derive my rear side axis and rear surround channels from the side surround channels in my Auro3d based surround system, sounds better than Dobly, DTS upmixers or the three CS3xJr's it replaced for this kind of matrixing, however for heights I don't think it would work as well.
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post #6333 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snickers01 View Post
Has anyone comared them or can confirm, that my thinking is right about Auro?

Lots of folks believe Logic 7 provides the best upmixing of rear channel info. I've heard it used in high end stereo systems to wonderful result.
I also preferred Pro Logic II to the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural that replaced it on my new Marantz Pre-Pro


Auro upmixing retains a better stereo soundstage than Dolby and DTS by keeping more of the info meant to be in the middle by keeping it in the L & R channels. The others are channeling everything hard to the center speaker. Seems the other blur the soundstage more from it's intended balance.

Sony XBR75-X940D, Sony UBP-X800M2 UHD-BD, Xfinity X1 Voice DVR, Marantz AV-7703 Pre/Pro w/Auro, (3) Adcom GFA-545II amps, (2) Adcom GFA-535II amps for ATMOS speakers.
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post #6334 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 07:23 PM
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I agree. Also when Auro directs out of phase material to the surrounds, it leaves it in the L&R (DSU & Neural:X delete it from the L&R) which to my ear maintains the front soundstage closer to the original stereo recording for some material.
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post #6335 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 07:43 PM
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Are you guys enabling Center Spread when evaluating DSU's 2ch upmixing?

I still prefer no upmixing with 2ch music and Neural X with 5.1-7.1 sources.
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post #6336 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Are you guys enabling Center Spread when evaluating DSU's 2ch upmixing?
No, but not seen as a option for my Marantz 7703?

Sony XBR75-X940D, Sony UBP-X800M2 UHD-BD, Xfinity X1 Voice DVR, Marantz AV-7703 Pre/Pro w/Auro, (3) Adcom GFA-545II amps, (2) Adcom GFA-535II amps for ATMOS speakers.
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post #6337 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
No, but not seen as a option for my Marantz 7703?
http://manuals.marantz.com/AV7703/EU...SYvdfworfs.php
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post #6338 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Too many options. LOL Yea I found it, still set to default Off.
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Sony XBR75-X940D, Sony UBP-X800M2 UHD-BD, Xfinity X1 Voice DVR, Marantz AV-7703 Pre/Pro w/Auro, (3) Adcom GFA-545II amps, (2) Adcom GFA-535II amps for ATMOS speakers.
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post #6339 of 6425 Old 06-13-2019, 11:09 PM
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Nice, thank you for your great answers. Dolby PL2 is also a great upmixer. I used it on my Yamaha RX-A1050 always, before i bought the Harman AVR 760. I never tried out the center spread at Dolby PL2. Because my Harman has booth, Logic7 and Dolby PL2, I switched some times (NEO:6 I completely dislike and never use), and found that there is not a huge difference, but there is one. With Logic7 I feel like a bit deeper into the music or movie. The sound-stage on the front is wider, the surrounds are better implemented and it's like the speakers are working better together, so I hear less separation from one to the other speaker, it's more one big sound-stage around me.
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post #6340 of 6425 Old 06-14-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snickers01 View Post
With Logic7 I feel like a bit deeper into the music or movie. The sound-stage on the front is wider, the surrounds are better implemented and it's like the speakers are working better together, so I hear less separation from one to the other speaker, it's more one big sound-stage around me.
L7 leaks more front channel info into the surrounds, causing the front soundstage to image way outside the front L/R speakers. PLII does a better job of cancelling front info from the surrounds, but you can turn off the cancelling signal by turning On the Panorama parameter in PLII Music mode, resulting in a wider soundstage.
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post #6341 of 6425 Old 07-06-2019, 06:26 AM
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Anyone using off spec top speaker placement with Auro-3D (configured in the AVR as height to enable Auro processing)?


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post #6342 of 6425 Old 07-06-2019, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Lots of folks believe Logic 7 provides the best upmixing of rear channel info. I've heard it used in high end stereo systems to wonderful result.
I also preferred Pro Logic II to the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural that replaced it on my new Marantz Pre-Pro


Auro upmixing retains a better stereo soundstage than Dolby and DTS by keeping more of the info meant to be in the middle by keeping it in the L & R channels. The others are channeling everything hard to the center speaker. Seems the other blur the soundstage more from it's intended balance.
Logic 7 mixing of the rears, or in my case rear axis and rears, sounds like it was tailor made to add rears to an Auro3D mix, it blends in so well its is as if it was part of the Auro3D mix to begin with.

I would recommend to anyone wanting to add rears to their Auro3d to check out Logic 7.
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post #6343 of 6425 Old 07-06-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawCPA View Post
Anyone using off spec top speaker placement with Auro-3D (configured in the AVR as height to enable Auro processing)?


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What do you mean by off spec?
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post #6344 of 6425 Old 07-06-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post
Logic 7 mixing of the rears, or in my case rear axis and rears, sounds like it was tailor made to add rears to an Auro3D mix, it blends in so well its is as if it was part of the Auro3D mix to begin with.

I would recommend to anyone wanting to add rears to their Auro3d to check out Logic 7.
You've lost me as to your system, goals, etc???
A Auro3D enabled system would do it's own rear extraction. What does Logic 7 have to do or how does it work into this?

Sony XBR75-X940D, Sony UBP-X800M2 UHD-BD, Xfinity X1 Voice DVR, Marantz AV-7703 Pre/Pro w/Auro, (3) Adcom GFA-545II amps, (2) Adcom GFA-535II amps for ATMOS speakers.
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post #6345 of 6425 Old 07-06-2019, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
You've lost me as to your system, goals, etc???
A Auro3D enabled system would do it's own rear extraction. What does Logic 7 have to do or how does it work into this?
I think he's referring to the fact that short of the 8500 or a Trinnov level processor, the rest of the models that do Auro-3D only do up to 10.1 which does NOT include rear speaker extraction except in Auro-2D mode. It darn well should have, IMO (as an alternative to the VOG channel which often isn't needed in a room with a short ceiling as without it there are two channels being unused) and I also couldn't tell you why they didn't include CH as an option when there are enough channels to do Auro 11.1 on all the models that support Auro-3D). But in any case, with a 10.1 setup playing Auro 11.1 or greater material, you get no rear bed level speakers. You can have rear heights (which are rendered exactly the same as surround heights and so you can use an external speaker switch box like I do to choose either side heights or rear heights or even both at the same time driven in parallel with two buttons here), but there is no output from my rear speakers with Auro-3D. I can even drive rear heights and create top middles for Auro-3D here using two Dolby processors that I use to extract top middle for Atmos and DTS:X but rear bed levels are still missing. I get surround #2 side output copied back further into the room with my mixer, but no rear in that speaker and no rear speaker output period.

Thus, your options are:

1> Buy an 8500 to get rear output (which short of all of like two movies are 11.1 or less anyway and so all the rears put out are the upmixer outputs for the rest anyway)

2> Copy the side channels to the rear channels using a speaker switchbox or active mixer control (this is what actual Auro-3D 11.1 theaters do for both side and side height; they both get copied to rear bed and rear heights, respectively)

3> Extract rear channels using some form of processing (ala Pro Logic II) by using the side bed channels as inputs to extract rear channels. This would be akin to the same thing I use for my top middle side height channels (extract an in-between channel between front height and rear height). Combined, you'd effectively have Auro-3D equivalent to Atmos 7.x.6). Even without rear beds here, Auro-3D movies in even 11.1 sound MUCH more like Atmos soundtracks using rear heights with extracted top middle plus the surround #2 speakers which from the MLP effectively pull the side into the back third of the room. Certainly, the opposite is true (i.e. Atmos dropped down to 5.1.4 sounds nearly identical to the same soundtrack in Auro-3D using true Auro-3D with speakers only to the sides), especially when the mix is made from the same master (which is probably true for every Auro-3D title out there save Red Tails (which is Auro-3D only) and perhaps Johnny Mnemonic (two separate mixing teams made them from what I've read) and possibly Texas Chainsaw Massacre (not certain there; they could be both 7.1.4 equivalents as it's 13.1 in Auro-3D).

Thus, I believe he's suggesting option #3 but using a Logic7 processor instead of Pro Logic to extract rear channels from the side bed surrounds.

Personally, I believe all this bother is kind of moot since I haven't seen a single Auro-3D movie of merit released since about a year ago. I think they're "done" so-to-speak. Even their cinema offerings have dried up from a half dozen or more a year to 1-2 at most. That's a lot of Auro-3D theaters sitting there doing NOTHING but playing regular 5.1. No wonder some of them have started converting to DTS:X instead (which is pretty simple compared to going to Atmos for a theater).

It's kind of a shame. Auro had the most potential to at least sound "different" if they had their own dedicated mixes. Certainly, their music offerings are darn near holographic. Unfortunately, unless you're into chamber music, orchestral and jazz, there aren't a lot of other musical style offerings in Auro-3D whereas you can get a Roger Water The Wall (partial concert) in Atmos, although that's not really fair either as that's really just a crappy documentary and doesn't include the entire concert start to finish like it damn well should have (last one I've seen there was Live In Berlin which I still have on laserdisc).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

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post #6346 of 6425 Old 07-07-2019, 01:32 AM
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The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post
What do you mean by off spec?


Using top (in-ceiling) speakers but selecting front and rear height in the AVR so that you can play Auro content. I guess that’s not off spec it’s non spec lol.

Right now I meet the speaker layout for Auro 9.1 but I am strongly considering putting in ceiling speakers in the Dolby Atmos position slightly in front of the sitting position and slightly behind and moving my couch forward a little bit instead of being against the wall instead of front and rear heights like I have now.

I posted pictures of my room and set up in the Klipsch owner thread but I have also attached a couple of those pictures to this post.



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post #6347 of 6425 Old 07-07-2019, 03:17 AM
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Using top (in-in ceiling) speakers but selecting front and rear height in the AVR so that you can play Auro content. I guess that’s not off spec it’s non spec lol.

Right now I meet the speaker layout for Auro 9.1 but I am strongly considering putting in ceiling speakers in the Dolby Atmos position slightly in front of the sitting position and slightly behind and moving my couch forward a little bit instead of being against the wall instead of front and rear heights like I have now.

I posted pictures of my room and set up in the Klipsch owner thread but I have also attached a couple of those pictures to this post.
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Those pictures you posted show on-wall speakers not "in ceiling" (or whatever in-in-ceiling means). You could argue by the angle whether they're "height" or "tops" technically speaking, but Auro only works with height so it doesn't really matter. There's nothing "off spec" about them, IMO. If you move to speakers in-ceiling in the Atmos "tops" positions you are then off-spec and it 'might' not sound right. What really matters, IMO is that the speakers be more or less in line with the equivalent bed speakers (be they side height above side bed or front height above front or rear height above rear, although without rear bed support, that won't really work there, but the good news is with Auro-3D movies, it doesn't matter much at all, IMO. When it really matters is if you're playing back dual quad miked music recordings as you want the sound fronts to align with each other by location to give that truly holographic effect.


Basically, your current speakers are plenty close enough to the bed speakers in question, IMO that I wouldn't give it a second thought, especially given the lack of true Auro-3D content in the first place.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #6348 of 6425 Old 07-07-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I think he's referring to the fact that short of the 8500 or a Trinnov level processor, the rest of the models that do Auro-3D only do up to 10.1 which does NOT include rear speaker extraction except in Auro-2D mode. It darn well should have, IMO (as an alternative to the VOG channel which often isn't needed in a room with a short ceiling as without it there are two channels being unused) and I also couldn't tell you why they didn't include CH as an option when there are enough channels to do Auro 11.1 on all the models that support Auro-3D). But in any case, with a 10.1 setup playing Auro 11.1 or greater material, you get no rear bed level speakers. You can have rear heights (which are rendered exactly the same as surround heights and so you can use an external speaker switch box like I do to choose either side heights or rear heights or even both at the same time driven in parallel with two buttons here), but there is no output from my rear speakers with Auro-3D. I can even drive rear heights and create top middles for Auro-3D here using two Dolby processors that I use to extract top middle for Atmos and DTS:X but rear bed levels are still missing. I get surround #2 side output copied back further into the room with my mixer, but no rear in that speaker and no rear speaker output period.

Thus, your options are:

1> Buy an 8500 to get rear output (which short of all of like two movies are 11.1 or less anyway and so all the rears put out are the upmixer outputs for the rest anyway)

2> Copy the side channels to the rear channels using a speaker switchbox or active mixer control (this is what actual Auro-3D 11.1 theaters do for both side and side height; they both get copied to rear bed and rear heights, respectively)

3> Extract rear channels using some form of processing (ala Pro Logic II) by using the side bed channels as inputs to extract rear channels. This would be akin to the same thing I use for my top middle side height channels (extract an in-between channel between front height and rear height). Combined, you'd effectively have Auro-3D equivalent to Atmos 7.x.6). Even without rear beds here, Auro-3D movies in even 11.1 sound MUCH more like Atmos soundtracks using rear heights with extracted top middle plus the surround #2 speakers which from the MLP effectively pull the side into the back third of the room. Certainly, the opposite is true (i.e. Atmos dropped down to 5.1.4 sounds nearly identical to the same soundtrack in Auro-3D using true Auro-3D with speakers only to the sides), especially when the mix is made from the same master (which is probably true for every Auro-3D title out there save Red Tails (which is Auro-3D only) and perhaps Johnny Mnemonic (two separate mixing teams made them from what I've read) and possibly Texas Chainsaw Massacre (not certain there; they could be both 7.1.4 equivalents as it's 13.1 in Auro-3D).

Thus, I believe he's suggesting option #3 but using a Logic7 processor instead of Pro Logic to extract rear channels from the side bed surrounds.

Personally, I believe all this bother is kind of moot since I haven't seen a single Auro-3D movie of merit released since about a year ago. I think they're "done" so-to-speak. Even their cinema offerings have dried up from a half dozen or more a year to 1-2 at most. That's a lot of Auro-3D theaters sitting there doing NOTHING but playing regular 5.1. No wonder some of them have started converting to DTS:X instead (which is pretty simple compared to going to Atmos for a theater).

It's kind of a shame. Auro had the most potential to at least sound "different" if they had their own dedicated mixes. Certainly, their music offerings are darn near holographic. Unfortunately, unless you're into chamber music, orchestral and jazz, there aren't a lot of other musical style offerings in Auro-3D whereas you can get a Roger Water The Wall (partial concert) in Atmos, although that's not really fair either as that's really just a crappy documentary and doesn't include the entire concert start to finish like it damn well should have (last one I've seen there was Live In Berlin which I still have on laserdisc).
Exactly, mine does 10.1 so I use Logic 7 to derive rear left and right and rear left and right axis channels and CS3xJr's to derive rear heights for a complete rear sound.

And yes you are right Auro3d had so much potential but they really let the ball drop on this format, I don't know why they could not have at least a few releases per year, they already have them in theaters so the mix is already made why they don't capitalize on it is beyond me?
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post #6349 of 6425 Old 07-07-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post
Exactly, mine does 10.1 so I use Logic 7 to derive rear left and right and rear left and right axis channels and CS3xJr's to derive rear heights for a complete rear sound.

And yes you are right Auro3d had so much potential but they really let the ball drop on this format, I don't know why they could not have at least a few releases per year, they already have them in theaters so the mix is already made why they don't capitalize on it is beyond me?
It's hard to say for sure, but I'm guessing the studios don't want to foot the bill for Auro tracks on production Blu-Rays when there's such a small market and two more well known alternatives they could use.

Auro charged for the AVR upgrades on D&M AVRs so that limited the market even further. They learned too late you need to get some customers before you can start charging for everything. Yamaha and Onkyo refused to even offer it (now that Onkyo is owned by D&M that could change, but what's the point with so little content? It's a chicken/egg situation and since even the few Auro movies there are seem to be made from the same basic masters, they sound mostly the same anyway.

Only the dual quad miked music really impressed me (almost everything in the distributed demo that people raved about as being so realistic used that type of recording.... Well movies do NOT use that method at all and so they sound little different than Atmos/DTS movies with similar numbers of speakers.

It's like comparing stereo through headphones with binaural through headphones. Binaural is freakishly real as long as your ears aren't too different than the dummy head, but outside a selection of esoteric recordings, good luck finding mainstream content.)

Heck, look at Imax Enhanced. Imax has a lot of clout. Even so, I have yet to see a single movie on BD offered by them, just those couple of pointless nature films! The announced Venom would be the first release on BD. Well, it's a bit late to that party. Venom has been out for some time on BD and even 3D BD. Most people that wanted it already bought it. Now if they picked a movie that didn't get the Imax scenes included they might get a few sales anyway, but there's a LOT of hate on BD forums for the format already because they said they would get rid of film grain and a lot of people HATE DNR. Combined with no other real spec differences than bass management being turned off whether it makes sense it not and you've got THX 2.0 and I mean THX in the later years where you practically had THX toothbrushes for sale (i.e. Meaningless crap).

DTS really needed it to work to stay relevant as streaming gets a larger and larger slice of the pie. Fandango was supposed to get exclusive streaming rights for a year for Imax Enhanced titles, but then streaming cuts in on the quality reputation factor, even if it's more practical to match Atmos for the masses.

Atmos getting exclusive content on AppleTV didn't help DTS either. We could eventually looking at one format period. Sadly, with licked printouts from Disney and possibly others, this doesn't bode well long term either. At least DTS:X Pro can use 32 speakers regardless via Neural X. Atmos can't expand those printouts at all. It sucks for high end gear.

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post #6350 of 6425 Old 07-11-2019, 11:36 PM
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Interesting - it appears the Smyth Realiser A16 will also support Auro 3d. It'll ship with Dolby Atmos only, with support for both DTS X and Auro 3d to come via software update.
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post #6351 of 6425 Old 07-13-2019, 05:03 AM
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Interesting - it appears the Smyth Realiser A16 will also support Auro 3d. It'll ship with Dolby Atmos only, with support for both DTS X and Auro 3d to come via software update.
I would like to hear that Realiser A16 https://smyth-research.com/ but I can't imagine how you would simulate height or the VOG channel with headphones.
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post #6352 of 6425 Old 07-13-2019, 08:10 AM
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I would like to hear that Realiser A16 https://smyth-research.com/ but I can't imagine how you would simulate height or the VOG channel with headphones.
With this Realiser any speaker position can be accurately simulated through headphones after an individual calibration process involving recording sound sweeps with little microphones in your ears.
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post #6353 of 6425 Old 07-13-2019, 08:11 AM
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Interesting - it appears the Smyth Realiser A16 will also support Auro 3d. It'll ship with Dolby Atmos only, with support for both DTS X and Auro 3d to come via software update.
That'll better be DTS:X Pro to enable using all 16 channels (15 main speaker positions).

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post #6354 of 6425 Old 07-13-2019, 09:10 AM
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That'll better be DTS:X Pro to enable using all 16 channels (15 main speaker positions).
The article I recently read said NO ONE but Trinnov has licensed DTS:X Pro so far. That's bad news for consumers and especially Denon 8500 users, many who figured it would be a given. Maybe they'll save it for the 8500's replacement. It'll probably be out before HDMI 2.1 for that matter at the rate things are going.

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post #6355 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 02:53 AM
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I have a small to medium sized media room with a cathedral ceiling. I know that ATMOS specs recommend a flat ceiling so I began to strongly consider Auro 3D because I'd often read that to has a better immersive experience and because it seems to be suitable for my room. After learning that I could do front height and rear height to bring an acceptable"compatibility" to all 3 immersive formats, I felt that I had found the perfect compromise. However, I'm concerned by the lack of content in Auro and wonder if the investment in the front height rear height layout is really the better choice or if I should install in the recommended, but compromised, Atmos locations even though I have a sloped ceiling? I'm using a Marantz 8802A processor currently. Maybe I will move to the 8805 some day. Oh....I also have 5 speakers as I was going to install the VOG as well.

On a related note, I got the very best speakers available from B&W, the CCM 8.5D. They are a bear to install and are recommended for pre construction. Didn't know that. Now I'm wondering if I should drop down to the CCM 682 (easier install) so I can buy more of those and move directly to the 8805 so that I can install speakers for all the popular layouts today. Will I notice a difference in sound quality by downgrading?
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post #6356 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 08:33 AM
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I know that ATMOS specs recommend a flat ceiling...
Only when using upfiring speakers to bounce the height information off the ceiling.

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post #6357 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by flournoy View Post
I have a small to medium sized media room with a cathedral ceiling. I know that ATMOS specs recommend a flat ceiling so I began to strongly consider Auro 3D because I'd often read that to has a better immersive experience and because it seems to be suitable for my room. After learning that I could do front height and rear height to bring an acceptable"compatibility" to all 3 immersive formats, I felt that I had found the perfect compromise. However, I'm concerned by the lack of content in Auro and wonder if the investment in the front height rear height layout is really the better choice or if I should install in the recommended, but compromised, Atmos locations even though I have a sloped ceiling? I'm using a Marantz 8802A processor currently. Maybe I will move to the 8805 some day. Oh....I also have 5 speakers as I was going to install the VOG as well.

On a related note, I got the very best speakers available from B&W, the CCM 8.5D. They are a bear to install and are recommended for pre construction. Didn't know that. Now I'm wondering if I should drop down to the CCM 682 (easier install) so I can buy more of those and move directly to the 8805 so that I can install speakers for all the popular layouts today. Will I notice a difference in sound quality by downgrading?
1. Keep in mind you can use the AuroMatic simulator on DD/DTS audio therefore lack of Auro 3D content (or at least not readily available in the USA) becomes a moot point.
2. Historically, it's been rare that the VOG speaker gets installed by forum members; however, if you're going to the trouble, why not install the other 4 in the ceiling as well? One option that some members use on cathedral ceilings is to use extension poles (eg. ceiling fan poles) to bring the speakers down closer to normal ceiling height.

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post #6358 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flournoy View Post
I have a small to medium sized media room with a cathedral ceiling. I know that ATMOS specs recommend a flat ceiling so I began to strongly consider Auro 3D because I'd often read that to has a better immersive experience and because it seems to be suitable for my room. After learning that I could do front height and rear height to bring an acceptable"compatibility" to all 3 immersive formats, I felt that I had found the perfect compromise. However, I'm concerned by the lack of content in Auro and wonder if the investment in the front height rear height layout is really the better choice or if I should install in the recommended, but compromised, Atmos locations even though I have a sloped ceiling? I'm using a Marantz 8802A processor currently. Maybe I will move to the 8805 some day. Oh....I also have 5 speakers as I was going to install the VOG as well.
How badly would the speakers distance to the MLP be due to the ceiling? Audyssey will attempt to compensate to some extent? IMO I would stay with a Atmos configuration best as possible. 99.5% of your sources will be Atmos and it's getting bigger every day with things like Sony announcing Atmos encoded music being released for many titles.
Better a slightly compromised Atmos then one totaly wrong, no ???
I enjoy Auro 3D upmixing of stereo on some recording over my Atmos config, but otherwise Auro is a dead road, why follow it?
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post #6359 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by flournoy View Post

On a related note, I got the very best speakers available from B&W, the CCM 8.5D. They are a bear to install and are recommended for pre construction. Didn't know that. Now I'm wondering if I should drop down to the CCM 682 (easier install) so I can buy more of those and move directly to the 8805 so that I can install speakers for all the popular layouts today. Will I notice a difference in sound quality by downgrading?

For the height and VOG speakers you probably won't notice much difference between the two because what goes up there is mostly ambiance particularly with the upmixer.

From what I have experienced with my setup you don't even need the same brand or type for the heights and VOG; I have M&K SS150 series speakers for my mains and surrounds but use Polk OWM3's for the front, side, and rear heights and Polk OWM5's for the two VOG speakers and front center height, I can't discern a tonal difference from the main speakers and the height during moves or music, side by side there is absolutely a difference, but top and bottom is does not seem to matter as much.
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post #6360 of 6425 Old 07-18-2019, 12:14 PM
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Heights ARE an official Atmos configuration. I'm not sure why so many think they aren't. With a Trinnov, you can have both heights and tops with no overlap even. In a practical room, the only thing that REALLY matters between the two (assuming you can meet the minimum angles for at least one) is the angle/distance between the two height speakers from each other. Once you go beyond about 120 degrees (perhaps even less for optimal), the phantom image between the two starts to really fall apart (hence the minimum 30/-30 recommended angles or 30/150 ftom the same plane). In a longer room (like mine where I currently have about 33/140 from the MLP, the image overhead is very weak with just those four speakers (my room is 24' long).

The solution there is the same as an actual cinema. Add more real speakers to bridge the phantom imaging. Thus, I have "top middle" speakers halfway in-between (mounted in the Auro surround height locations with a bipolar speaker pointing towards front and back rows. My room is much more narrow in width than length so they're really only about 23 inches off from the ceiling location and just behind the MLP at the halfway point in the room). This means only 67 degrees to front height and 60 to rear height.

The end result is a smooth image that pans across the entire ceiling (demonstrated quite well in Fury with Brad Pitt that has several nice ceiling wide slow pans across the upper layer). All "tops" would do instead is limit the panning distance that goes from one end of the room to the other by about 12 feet total (six feet off either end). I probably wouldn't need top middle then, though, but the rear row wouldn't have height effects behind it and the front row wouldn't start from the screen edge.

Hence, I saw no reason to go with tops, which would also be a messier install on the ceiling or a much harder install in the ceiling.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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