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post #6421 of 6481 Old 11-30-2019, 03:33 PM
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Let us know how it sounds!

I have it on order myself I found it here:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07Z75QV5L?...&tag=areadvd0e

Looks like it is in Auro 3d both Deutsch and English
I got it in the mail and watched it today; I popped the disk in set it to Auro3d in the disk settings but it did not sound like Auro3d which I checked on my player it shows DTS HD MA 5.1 in fact I can switch between DTS HD MA 5.1 2.0 but according to the back of the the Blu Ray box only DTS HD MA 2.0 is included. I check the German version it was the same thing, so it appears there is no Auro3d mix on this disc, either whoever burned them included the wrong audio or whoever printed the box put Auro3d by mistake.

Anyone else getting this see if it gives you the same audio tracks.

Here is a photo of it:


*Note also on the back it is numbered, mine is 240 out of 500 so it could be that it is a limited edition where only 500 copies were made so still could be a collectors item regardless
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post #6422 of 6481 Old 11-30-2019, 03:42 PM
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Death Machine (1994) by Turbine has arrived from Germany. It's supposed to be in German and English Auro-3D (my first new Auro-3D title in like a year, making it #11 not counting the demo disc). I'll be curious to hear how it turns out (I never saw the movie before either so it'll all be new to me).

I hope it's on THIS one....
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Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #6423 of 6481 Old 11-30-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Socio View Post
I got it in the mail and watched it today; I popped the disk in set it to Auro3d in the disk settings but it did not sound like Auro3d which I checked on my player it shows DTS HD MA 5.1 in fact I can switch between DTS HD MA 5.1 2.0 but according to the back of the the Blu Ray box only DTS HD MA 2.0 is included. I check the German version it was the same thing, so it appears there is no Auro3d mix on this disc, either whoever burned them included the wrong audio or whoever printed the box put Auro3d by mistake.

Anyone else getting this see if it gives you the same audio tracks.

Here is a photo of it:


*Note also on the back it is numbered, mine is 240 out of 500 so it could be that it is a limited edition where only 500 copies were made so still could be a collectors item regardless
It should be the DTS 5.1 track. You normally need to manually select Auro-3D on the Denon/Marantz units as they do no auto-detect. I'm going to go try mine now and I'll report back if it works.

EDIT: I tried it. It works fine. The audio select menu clearly shows Auro-3D in the selections for German and English. I pressed Auro-3D on the surround decode and it reported the 11.1 Auro-3D signal present in the INFO button. So it's definitely Auro-3D 11.1 here.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

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post #6424 of 6481 Old 11-30-2019, 04:37 PM
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It should be the DTS 5.1 track. You normally need to manually select Auro-3D on the Denon/Marantz units as they do no auto-detect. I'm going to go try mine now and I'll report back if it works.

EDIT: I tried it. It works fine. The audio select menu clearly shows Auro-3D in the selections for German and English. I pressed Auro-3D on the surround decode and it reported the 11.1 Auro-3D signal present in the INFO button. So it's definitely Auro-3D 11.1 here.
I tried it again yes you are right the blu ray player info shows DTS HD MA during playback but the receiver shows Auro3d 11.1 hitting the info button, I guess it is Auro3d and my ears were playing tricks on me.
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post #6425 of 6481 Old 11-30-2019, 07:43 PM
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I finished watching Death Machine in Auro-3D. The movie is essentially about a new lady taking over as CEO in a company that's secretly making front line terror weapons and she's trying to clean their act up while the mad scientist making the weapons is having none of that idea and yet falls in love with her so he's up for killing everyone but her to make the world his way. It feels absurd and yet if you throw reality out the window, it has its moments just the same. It's obviously a bit of a B-grade horror movie, but I can see why it's a bit of a cult classic at the same time. It definitely has some appeal to it in a sense that's hard to define. The acting could be better in many many places, but the effects and crazed pace at times gives it a very high class feel too. It creates suspense and an almost claustrophobic feel of terror and I think with better actors and dialog, it could have been something much bigger at least until I question why no bullets every snag any of those hydraulic hoses on the robot (it's near invincibility lent it a hard to believe factor and yet the almost animal-like stupidity of its AI compared to say a Terminator made it possible to evade despite all its tracking measures. The cyber-programmed human warrior bit was harder to believe and the guy yelling Arnold like commands wasn't well done...the bad acting thing again. Even Arnold portrayed a robot-like demeanor better. The CEO lady did better and the crazy bad guy was pretty believable as a nut job so it wasn't a total acting failure).

The new Auro-3D soundtrack seems to take the original Auro-3D philosophy into account (instead of a conversion of an Atmos track that sounds like Atmos 5.1.4). By that I mean the the entire soundfield is one giant continuous one rather than some arbitrary division of bed/height like most Atmos stuff tends to do (i.e. height stuff is overhead and bed stuff is below with some objects that fly between them sometimes). I'm not saying Atmos couldn't go "big" but it seems to go for pin-point most of the time rather than a giant wall of sound. The sound is so continuous in Auro-3D, that it's often hard to be sure if the heights are in use or it's just the impression they are from the stereo mix phase relationships or whatever. One push of my MUTE button for the AVR that powers the height channels answers that question (the entire sound field collapsed into the bottom third of the room; it was freaky to hear how much of the soundtrack was in the height channels and NOT in the bed channels (you could hear faint/muffled bits of some of the upper sounds but it's clear there IS a division and often far more was in the heights than the beds, but you'd never guess it with the overheads on as it just sounds like sounds come from anywhere and everywhere in the room WITH NO INDICATION OF SPEAKERS WHATSOEVER. It sounded like there was often far more in the heights than the beds. It was a giant 8 foot wall of sound in every direction.

There were plenty of moments of direct overhead sound, but they were often big sounds blending in with the rest of the field rather than "Oh there's the ceiling!" except in a few places like the thunder in the storm outside which were clearly all above. Most of the overhead action was to the sides and front creating the impression the entire wall was made of speakers as again, there was no direct indication of sounds from specific speakers save perhaps the dialog, except that I use dialog 'lift' and and so it comes from the center of the screen where there are no speakers. The closest exception I can think of is when the one guy is talking to the other guy from a monitor above him and the sound clearly came from the vicinity of the front right height speaker at the top of the screen to the right of it. Bass was plentiful and deep. Some of the sound effects were oddly muffled for what appeared to be effect rather than going for loud sounds (for example where the one guy breaks the glass on a door to get through it or where instead of loud sounds of grinding flesh and screams, it goes for a quiet effect of freaky music blaring with a muffled slow motion type effect.

If I had a complaint about the soundtrack, it would be I'd like more direct overhead sounds in the middle of the ceiling, but then this soundtrack was designed for 1994 so there were few parts where that would make sense and when it could have (e.g. in the elevator when the machine attacks), it came from the floor into the elevator, not from above and so the opportunity for overhead sound there was missed. But clearly it had tons of sounds in the heights to the sides and front. But if you closed your eyes, it seemed far more surreal with no visuals to make you realize no objects were actually in the middle of the room between you and the screen (similar things apply to height effects that are distinctly above; they're much more clear to tell where they're coming from when you're not hunting for invisible objects that your brain rejects as not existing and therefore diminishes the effect a bit or so at least it seemed.

But certainly this was an interesting "immersive" mix in that it did NOT sound like a typical Atmos or X soundtrack, but more like the Auro-3D demo of the tractor pass or Amsterdam street corner in that you don't realize there's anything coming from speakers until you cut off the top or bottom and the room divides in two. There are no speakers, just the sound field all around you.
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post #6426 of 6481 Old 12-18-2019, 09:34 AM
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Seems Auro will come with Virtual speakers setup, do not know if this will be availible also for "older" Auro 3D software.

Auro-Scene Virtual Speaker Technology

Recreates 3D sound field from a single device
Configurations from 2.0 to 5.1.2
Optional Satellite speakers
Maximum Configuration 7.1.4
Configurable as Surround with Up-firing or Front Height with Side-firing speaker.
Can be used to virtualise any immersive signal up to 7.1.4
Works with Auro-Matic up-mixing for Stereo and 5.1/7/1 Surround sources.
Integrated in Auro-3D Engine (v3 and higher)
Available for x86, ADI Griffin Lite, TI K2G, NXP, i.MX8, Qualcomm QCS407
Soon to be available on Cirrus Logic.

New Auro®-Scene Virtual Speakers Algorithm
We are pleased to announce our new Auro®-Scene virtual speaker technology for soundbars and stereo speaker systems. This new algorithm is integrated in the new Auro-3D Engine v3 and is tuned to deliver optimal results in concert with our acclaimed Auro-Codec® and Auro-Matic®. A brand new Auro-3D Soundbar Reference Design has been developed to demonstrate this amazing technology, which can also be used as a basis for further commercial designs.

Auro®-Scene for Soundbars supports all scenarios ranging from stereo setups, over a standalone 5.1.2 configuration, up to a 7.1.4 configuration supporting optional satellite speakers. Totally unique to Auro-3D is the use of satellite speakers as Front Height speakers for a truly breathtaking immersive experience.
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post #6427 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 12:15 AM
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Hi,
I have a Denon X4500H in a 7.2.4 setup with external amp for Rear Height.
But when I use Auro 3D my Surround Back speakers are disabled
No problems for Dolby and DTS !
Well, if you want immersive users to stop use Auro, this is the way...….
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post #6428 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 03:40 AM
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Hi,
I have a Denon X4500H in a 7.2.4 setup with external amp for Rear Height.
But when I use Auro 3D my Surround Back speakers are disabled
No problems for Dolby and DTS !
Well, if you want immersive users to stop use Auro, this is the way...….
Auro 11.1 is essentially a 5.1.4 format equivalent. Auro 13.1 has the rear speakers enabled, but only the Denon 8500 and Marantz AV8805 support it. Only two known movies that I'm aware of use it anyway (the rears use upmixing on those models with 11.1 movies).

IMO, Auro should have had an option for an "11.1" mode that was essentially 13.1 minus TS (VOG) instead. They also should have offered surround height to be compatible with the top middle designation and worked front/rear heights with top surround modes as well (even if they weren't ideal, something is always better than nothing when you're the underdog). They also couldn't manage to market a single movie outside of Europe or Australia in Auro-3D format so most people in North America that didn't go out of their way (like I did) to get a hold of those movies to try them pretty much wrote off Auro-3D years ago. Auro handled all this very poorly, IMO and they're paying for it by being nearly extinct now. Auro was first and had a huge advantage with a possible lead start, but wasted it and then compounded the problem by insisting their layout not work with the Atmos one despite being extremely similar to a 5.1 layout. They eventually allowed rear heights to make it work with ONE setup, but ignored the rest and ignored the cries about no rear speaker support until the 8500 came out, which is a bit too late and not the most common AVR out there given its sky high price.

OTOH, I can't count how many people I've read say that their rear speakers get almost no use even with 7.1 and Atmos soundtracks. I personally don't believe that to be true with newer Atmos tracks, but I do have several Atmos movies that only use them in high action sequences while sides are doing ambience all the time. In the real world, things behind you don't stop making sounds except when something exciting is going on. I honestly think some of the guys mixing these things don't seem to comprehend what "immersive" is supposed to mean. It's supposed to mean real world ambience ALL THE TIME.
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post #6429 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Auro 11.1 is essentially a 5.1.4 format equivalent. Auro 13.1 has the rear speakers enabled, but only the Denon 8500 and Marantz AV8805 support it. Only two known movies that I'm aware of use it anyway (the rears use upmixing on those models with 11.1 movies).

IMO, Auro should have had an option for an "11.1" mode that was essentially 13.1 minus TS (VOG) instead. They also should have offered surround height to be compatible with the top middle designation and worked front/rear heights with top surround modes as well (even if they weren't ideal, something is always better than nothing when you're the underdog). They also couldn't manage to market a single movie outside of Europe or Australia in Auro-3D format so most people in North America that didn't go out of their way (like I did) to get a hold of those movies to try them pretty much wrote off Auro-3D years ago. Auro handled all this very poorly, IMO and they're paying for it by being nearly extinct now. Auro was first and had a huge advantage with a possible lead start, but wasted it and then compounded the problem by insisting their layout not work with the Atmos one despite being extremely similar to a 5.1 layout. They eventually allowed rear heights to make it work with ONE setup, but ignored the rest and ignored the cries about no rear speaker support until the 8500 came out, which is a bit too late and not the most common AVR out there given its sky high price.

OTOH, I can't count how many people I've read say that their rear speakers get almost no use even with 7.1 and Atmos soundtracks. I personally don't believe that to be true with newer Atmos tracks, but I do have several Atmos movies that only use them in high action sequences while sides are doing ambience all the time. In the real world, things behind you don't stop making sounds except when something exciting is going on. I honestly think some of the guys mixing these things don't seem to comprehend what "immersive" is supposed to mean. It's supposed to mean real world ambience ALL THE TIME.
To bad Auro never jumped on the 7.x.4 train, except for the far to expensive X8500H.
I realy like the options in Auro to alter the way it works.
But is this a Auro thing, or a receiver brand thing, not supporting the SB speakers for Auro 5.x.4 ?

As you also say SB is not very active ether way, its maybe a better option to skip SB and let the speakers do VOG and run all formats with Auro 3D.
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post #6430 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 06:37 AM
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To bad Auro never jumped on the 7.x.4 train, except for the far to expensive X8500H.
I realy like the options in Auro to alter the way it works.
But is this a Auro thing, or a receiver brand thing, not supporting the SB speakers for Auro 5.x.4 ?

As you also say SB is not very active ether way, its maybe a better option to skip SB and let the speakers do VOG and run all formats with Auro 3D.
They're typically not on the same preouts so you don't have to give up surround back necessarily. They just won't be active in Auro-3D mode (they do work in Auro-2D mode). If you place your setup in such a way that the surround backs are just to deepen the rear sound stage (i.e. place your sides slightly behind you), it'll work fine both ways. The only issue becomes for multiple rows of seating.

I have my side surrounds at 110 degrees (give or take; I haven't done an angle measurement lately and I've moved the front row seats a few inches) so even 5.1 material can image behind me. I then active mix side/rear to make a matrixed "surround #1 " speaker halfway between the side surrounds and the rear surrounds. My front wides are matrixed so they work with Auro as well between my front row and the mains. With Auro 11.1, it's only half active (the side part) that's active in the surround #1 speakers, but that still lets sounds go further back than just the regular sides alone (a speaker switchbox could allow copying the sides to the rear speakers as well like the Auro 11.1 theaters do). I've got the option of either using rear heights in the back of the room with a "middle" extracted at the surround height location or using my switchbox to copy the rear heights to the side locations as well or disable the rear speakers and only have it at the side heights (that gives me "true" Auro 9.1 as the side heights are right above the side surrounds and I can disable the front wides and surround #1 speakers at the push of a few buttons if truly desired (for Atmos/X too even), but I think they're helpful for off axis seats regardless and real Auro cinemas have arrayed sides anyway.

As such, if I leave my system in 11.1.6 with extracted top middle as-is, the first two rows are fine in Auro-3D. The rear row doesn't have stuff directly to the sides or behind it, but the surround #1 speakers are just in front of that row and rear heights are still behind and overhead so it still sounds pretty good. If I hooked up a switchbox to copy the sides to the back, it'd sound good either way, I think. The sounds would be less discrete in the rear, but sadly most Atmos tracks underuse the rears anyway. I don't know why Auro didn't offer a surround back instead of VOG option on the 11.1 receivers. I do think the VOG option is nice to anchor overhead sounds for off-axis seats, though. It's pretty hard to put it "above" the overhead speakers in a typical home environment, but it acts like a center middle speaker to make sure overhead sounds are in the middle of the room overhead for everyone. I'd have to put up two speakers in parallel on either side of my "steel beam box" to do a VOG speaker. I'd still probably bother if there were more Auro material that supported it (DTS:X will use it, but not if you are over 11-channels already at least until DTS:X Pro becomes available and then you're still fighting with other channel options instead like front wides you might rather use). I thought about creating an extracted VOG channel, but I'd have to switch my existing dolby decoders to ones with pre-outs and then add one more to extract a VOG channel. But THAT would work all the time for all formats and not even count on the channel list.
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post #6431 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
They're typically not on the same preouts so you don't have to give up surround back necessarily. They just won't be active in Auro-3D mode (they do work in Auro-2D mode). If you place your setup in such a way that the surround backs are just to deepen the rear sound stage (i.e. place your sides slightly behind you), it'll work fine both ways. The only issue becomes for multiple rows of seating.

I have my side surrounds at 110 degrees (give or take; I haven't done an angle measurement lately and I've moved the front row seats a few inches) so even 5.1 material can image behind me. I then active mix side/rear to make a matrixed "surround #1 " speaker halfway between the side surrounds and the rear surrounds. My front wides are matrixed so they work with Auro as well between my front row and the mains. With Auro 11.1, it's only half active (the side part) that's active in the surround #1 speakers, but that still lets sounds go further back than just the regular sides alone (a speaker switchbox could allow copying the sides to the rear speakers as well like the Auro 11.1 theaters do). I've got the option of either using rear heights in the back of the room with a "middle" extracted at the surround height location or using my switchbox to copy the rear heights to the side locations as well or disable the rear speakers and only have it at the side heights (that gives me "true" Auro 9.1 as the side heights are right above the side surrounds and I can disable the front wides and surround #1 speakers at the push of a few buttons if truly desired (for Atmos/X too even), but I think they're helpful for off axis seats regardless and real Auro cinemas have arrayed sides anyway.

As such, if I leave my system in 11.1.6 with extracted top middle as-is, the first two rows are fine in Auro-3D. The rear row doesn't have stuff directly to the sides or behind it, but the surround #1 speakers are just in front of that row and rear heights are still behind and overhead so it still sounds pretty good. If I hooked up a switchbox to copy the sides to the back, it'd sound good either way, I think. The sounds would be less discrete in the rear, but sadly most Atmos tracks underuse the rears anyway. I don't know why Auro didn't offer a surround back instead of VOG option on the 11.1 receivers. I do think the VOG option is nice to anchor overhead sounds for off-axis seats, though. It's pretty hard to put it "above" the overhead speakers in a typical home environment, but it acts like a center middle speaker to make sure overhead sounds are in the middle of the room overhead for everyone. I'd have to put up two speakers in parallel on either side of my "steel beam box" to do a VOG speaker. I'd still probably bother if there were more Auro material that supported it (DTS:X will use it, but not if you are over 11-channels already at least until DTS:X Pro becomes available and then you're still fighting with other channel options instead like front wides you might rather use). I thought about creating an extracted VOG channel, but I'd have to switch my existing dolby decoders to ones with pre-outs and then add one more to extract a VOG channel. But THAT would work all the time for all formats and not even count on the channel list.
Hi MagnumX, thanks for your great info :-)

If i understand you correct, when i do a 5.2.5 (with VOG) setup i can have Auro playing on Atmos and DTSX files, and both will play 5.2.4 with VOG ?

I changed my setup a few days ago, now i have on front wall the Front Height above the Front speakers, and on the back wall the Surround speaker and above them the Height Rear speakers.
I could do a Auro setup and set them as Side Surround with Side Height.
Instead of having them on the side, they are behind me, beside me is not possible.

For VOG I need to be creative, I can not have speakers on my concrete ceiling.
What I can do is mount them behind my 65 inch Oled screen, and bounce the VOG signals from the front wall to the ceiling, to the MLP.
I had this before on a 7.2.2 setup and it worked great, could not tell that the speakers were behind the screen, it sounded above me.
Not ideal, but its working.

But will this work, run Atmos and DTSX files on Auro with VOG in 5.2.5 ?

(my MLP is only 2 seats just before the middle of the room, no more....)
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post #6432 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 08:58 AM
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Hi MagnumX, thanks for your great info :-)

If i understand you correct, when i do a 5.2.5 (with VOG) setup i can have Auro playing on Atmos and DTSX files, and both will play 5.2.4 with VOG ?
The VOG channel only works with Auro-3D (and DTS:X *IF* you have a total of less than 11-channels in use). It does not work with Dolby Atmos at all. I suggested a way to "extract" such a channel, but it's cumbersome because you have to first extract "top middle" with another set of Dolby Pro Logic processors. You could actually just use those two speakers placed closer together to act as top surround for that matter. But if you're going with a Dolby layout (front/rear height), top middle should be in line with the front/rear height channels if possible. I have mine on the sides, but I let some sound "leak" (via distance setting) to the mains as well which pulls the phantom image over far enough that they sound more or less in line (my room is also narrow at only 12 feet wide).

Quote:
I changed my setup a few days ago, now i have on front wall the Front Height above the Front speakers, and on the back wall the Surround speaker and above them the Height Rear speakers.
I could do a Auro setup and set them as Side Surround with Side Height.
Instead of having them on the side, they are behind me, beside me is not possible.

For VOG I need to be creative, I can not have speakers on my concrete ceiling.
What I can do is mount them behind my 65 inch Oled screen, and bounce the VOG signals from the front wall to the ceiling, to the MLP.
I had this before on a 7.2.2 setup and it worked great, could not tell that the speakers were behind the screen, it sounded above me.
Not ideal, but its working.
All the immersive formats will phantom image overhead if you have front and back speakers in use including Auro-3D. Like with all stereo panning, though it will pull a bit towards the speakers you're sitting closer to (but then that typically still appears above your head more or less). Thus, you don't actually need a VOG for the main listening seats in line with the center of the screen. It's more useful for off-center seats as the overheads will pull to the nearest speakers when you sit off center. I'm not sure how well a "bounce" VOG would work anyway, but I guess you could try it with a 5.1.5 setup for DTS:X and Auro-3D at least.

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But will this work, run Atmos and DTSX files on Auro with VOG in 5.2.5 ?

(my MLP is only 2 seats just before the middle of the room, no more....)
It should work for Auro-3D and DTS:X, but Atmos won't use the actual VOG channel. If you really want a middle top middle channel for Atmos, you'd have to extract (via Pro Logic center outputs on two processors) "top middle" instead with an 11-channel receiver. Since you cannot mount speakers there anyway, I'd just go without. You can try using a bounce for the VOG with Auro and X sources, but it only becomes active for direct overhead sounds and the bounce may not work as well as you expect and might pull it forward instead. But you can try it.

It's a shame Atmos won't use it, really as that could more or less make Atmos fully compatible with Auro 10.1 setups. It seems the two companies don't want to cooperate whatsoever (and Dolby has nothing to lose by refusing really as they control the market right now more or less). DTS is clearly smarter than Auro Technologies and went with being compatible with either setup regardless (knowing full well the small speaker position differences don't kill the effects enough to warrant refusing to use the speaker locations and thus risk losing support whichever way things went, although it was fairly obvious Atmos was going to win over Auro-3D no matter what, but I had at least hoped Auro would carve out some support enough to have some choices, but they seem pretty dead now. Unless China or something brings in a lot of money and more personnel, I doubt things will change much. They used to at least have decent cinema support, but I haven't seen anything in over a year at the cinema in Auro-3D around here and some theaters are now converting to DTS:X as it's cheaper than moving to Atmos specs from Auro-3D locations and DTS has no problem getting major release titles in X for the cinema as they still have major connections with all the studios for BD use, etc.) Really, with streaming bringing options of multiple languages, etc. at the push of a button, you'd think you could also choose Atmos or X (and possibly Auro as well) at the push of a button...but nope. We're held hostage to the whims of the studios....

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post #6433 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 09:29 AM
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The VOG channel only works with Auro-3D (and DTS:X *IF* you have a total of less than 11-channels in use). It does not work with Dolby Atmos at all.
I'm not sure how well a "bounce" VOG would work anyway, but I guess you could try it with a 5.1.5 setup for DTS:X and Auro-3D at least.
The "bounce" worked before so I will try it again and let you know

What I really like with Auro are the surround parameters they have, like speech for TV, and Big for movie use, and the settings to put more "up there".

Just tried a Atmos file on the Denon X4500H and what its doing is switching from Atmos to TrueHD and so activating all Auro speakers including Side Surround and VOG.
Think the "sound quality" of Atmos and TrueHD will be near the same or the same, or not ?

I could not get an DTSX file to use Auro, it is not in de audio mode list and DTSX will only use the 5.x.4 speakers, not the VOG.

Thanks, hope to speak you soon, have to re-run some speakers wires to get the bounce VOG to work.
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post #6434 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 09:40 AM
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The "bounce" worked before so I will try it again and let you know

What I really like with Auro are the surround parameters they have, like speech for TV, and Big for movie use, and the settings to put more "up there".

Just tried a Atmos file on the Denon X4500H and what its doing is switching from Atmos to TrueHD and so activating all Auro speakers including Side Surround and VOG.
Think the "sound quality" of Atmos and TrueHD will be near the same or the same, or not ?

I could not get an DTSX file to use Auro, it is not in de audio mode list and DTSX will only use the 5.x.4 speakers, not the VOG.

Thanks, hope to speak you soon, have to re-run some speakers wires to get the bounce VOG to work.
You can just set it up for 5.1.5 and select Neural X for DTS-HD Master Audio files (DTS:X files will automatically use Neural X unless the AVR is set not to). Neural X should use the VOG speaker automatically with 5.1.5 (I haven't tried it myself, but I've read reviews by others that have before). DTS:X files should also work with the Auro upmixer (select DTS + Auro-3D). You should be able to use the TrueHD base files of Atmos movies with Neural X as well. Both should use the VOG in a 5.1.5 setup.

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post #6435 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
You can just set it up for 5.1.5 and select Neural X for DTS-HD Master Audio files (DTS:X files will automatically use Neural X unless the AVR is set not to). Neural X should use the VOG speaker automatically with 5.1.5 (I haven't tried it myself, but I've read reviews by others that have before). DTS:X files should also work with the Auro upmixer (select DTS + Auro-3D). You should be able to use the TrueHD base files of Atmos movies with Neural X as well. Both should use the VOG in a 5.1.5 setup.
Sorry to say, its not working with DTSX
Only DTSX Master as logical option.
Do you have any idea what is wrong ?
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post #6436 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 01:31 PM
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Sorry to say, its not working with DTSX
Only DTSX Master as logical option.
Do you have any idea what is wrong ?
DTS:X always has Neural X engaged with it automatically (it won't say it in the surround options) unless you turn Neural X off for DTS specifically in the setup preferences. The VOG speaker will only work with a direct overhead sound with Neural X, though. I'm not sure why it doesn't offer Auro or Dolby modes to you, though. I'll check my own setup with a DTS:X file to be sure (I know Atmos always offers TrueHD + Surround options here on my 7012).

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post #6437 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
DTS:X always has Neural X engaged with it automatically (it won't say it in the surround options) unless you turn Neural X off for DTS specifically in the setup preferences. The VOG speaker will only work with a direct overhead sound with Neural X, though. I'm not sure why it doesn't offer Auro or Dolby modes to you, though. I'll check my own setup with a DTS:X file to be sure (I know Atmos always offers TrueHD + Surround options here on my 7012).
Indeed I get also on Atmos TrueHD, it will automatic switch to TrueHD when I select Auro.
Think the 7012 will be near the same as the Denon X4500H, how it handles audio files and audio modes.
I can see no mention in the manual it will not play Auro when a DTSX files is used, but as you can see, its not.
No problem with DTS HD Master files, Auro is running that

I can not turn Neural X off for DTS specifically in the setup preferences.

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post #6438 of 6481 Old 01-06-2020, 03:50 PM
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Indeed I get also on Atmos TrueHD, it will automatic switch to TrueHD when I select Auro.
Think the 7012 will be near the same as the Denon X4500H, how it handles audio files and audio modes.
I can see no mention in the manual it will not play Auro when a DTSX files is used, but as you can see, its not.
No problem with DTS HD Master files, Auro is running that

I can not turn Neural X off for DTS specifically in the setup preferences.
You're right. I never noticed that before. I cannot switch DTS:X to anything but stereo, virtual and multi-channel stereo. That's kind of a bummer given the stink about Dolby ordering the AVR makers to not allow upmixers with Atmos when clearly DTS:X is doing the same thing (except it was never really enforced with Dolby and has been rescinded since). I can't think of any reason the base 7.1 tracks shouldn't be able to be used with Auro-3D or Dolby Surround in the DTS:X signal other than the AVR not allowing it.

As for Neural X, it's under the "Audio" menu in surround parameters, I think (according to my manual anyway) while DTS:X is playing. "Neural X with DTS:X" can be turned on or off.

In any case, if you're willing to use Auro-3D or Neural X with the TrueHD base on Atmos signals instead of Atmos decoding, you should (technically speaking) be able to get the top surround (VOG) channel to work with any signal (since DTS:X uses it by default anyway) in a 5.1.5 configuration.

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post #6439 of 6481 Old 01-07-2020, 12:28 PM
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You're right. I never noticed that before. I cannot switch DTS:X to anything but stereo, virtual and multi-channel stereo. That's kind of a bummer given the stink about Dolby ordering the AVR makers to not allow upmixers with Atmos when clearly DTS:X is doing the same thing (except it was never really enforced with Dolby and has been rescinded since). I can't think of any reason the base 7.1 tracks shouldn't be able to be used with Auro-3D or Dolby Surround in the DTS:X signal other than the AVR not allowing it.

As for Neural X, it's under the "Audio" menu in surround parameters, I think (according to my manual anyway) while DTS:X is playing. "Neural X with DTS:X" can be turned on or off.

In any case, if you're willing to use Auro-3D or Neural X with the TrueHD base on Atmos signals instead of Atmos decoding, you should (technically speaking) be able to get the top surround (VOG) channel to work with any signal (since DTS:X uses it by default anyway) in a 5.1.5 configuration.
Do you prefer Auro(matic) over Atmos and/or DTSX ?

I like that Auro can be adjusted to the way the user likes, more or less Height speakers use,a nd the effect options.
Find also "speech" very useful with TV, and like that Auro uses the Fronts a bit more then Dolby and DTS, they have 95% Center, Auro (I think) will do 70% Center and 30% Fronts.
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Do you prefer Auro(matic) over Atmos and/or DTSX ?

I like that Auro can be adjusted to the way the user likes, more or less Height speakers use,a nd the effect options.
Find also "speech" very useful with TV, and like that Auro uses the Fronts a bit more then Dolby and DTS, they have 95% Center, Auro (I think) will do 70% Center and 30% Fronts.
Personally, I like Neural X for movies (it puts more things overhead than DSU) and I typically use 6-channel matrixed stereo for music (i.e. I leave the matrixed front wides on and the dialog lift effect on as well, which limits room reflections (clearer more focused sound) and yet gives extra arrivals similar to bipolar/dipolar as used in the front for a more "in the room" effect sound), but I probably prefer DSU if I'm going to use surround for music as it does more interesting things with instruments spread into the surround environment without going crazy (putting instruments up in the air as Neural X often does). Auromatic is more like Audyssey DSX in that it creates new synthetic reverb to make the room seem larger and more "live" more than putting sounds higher up, etc.

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Late to this thread. Currently Denon AVC x8500H with 13.2 (7:2:6) speakers set for Atmos.

Just had an idea that I could implement Auro 3D with one extra speaker added for Front Centre Height.

Have Front and Rear L&R Heights which are ok for Auro3D
The minor issue would be that I fitted L & R Top Middles in the ceiling.
But thought if I connect them in parallel to the Auro VOG output that should give a fairly good representation of a centre top VOG speaker. (The Denon will easily handle 4ohms.)

I don't really want to cut any more holes....
Just need to see if WAF allows one more speaker....

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post #6442 of 6481 Old 01-10-2020, 10:07 PM
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I've been listening to the music tracks on the Auro-3D Demo Disc 2. Some are quite impressive (Several blow the 5.1 Pink Floyd tracks out of the water in terms of surrounding immersion and even sound quality) (I do own Lichtmond 3 also in Auro-3D). It's a shame Auro isn't getting more attention. I hope Atmos music turns out well. I'm sure it can be done very well, but part of the allure of Auro-3D is the dual quad mics used to record real spaces which are then reproduced in near holographic quality (something I haven't seen done with Atmos since not being channel based, it doesn't naturally lend itself to the same kind of recording setup (although they could pick a fixed layout and mic it). Given DTS:X is Auro-compatible layout-wise, it seems like DTS:X Pro would be a natural to create blow your socks off music, but I won't hold my breath on that either.

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Late to this thread. Currently Denon AVC x8500H with 13.2 (7:2:6) speakers set for Atmos.

Just had an idea that I could implement Auro 3D with one extra speaker added for Front Centre Height.

Have Front and Rear L&R Heights which are ok for Auro3D
The minor issue would be that I fitted L & R Top Middles in the ceiling.
But thought if I connect them in parallel to the Auro VOG output that should give a fairly good representation of a centre top VOG speaker. (The Denon will easily handle 4ohms.)

I don't really want to cut any more holes....
Just need to see if WAF allows one more speaker....
Using Top Middles as VoG/TOP is advocated by Auro. I'm not sure adding a Center Height is worth your time/hassle. Definitely find a way to test before cutting any holes.

EDITED ABOVE TABLE
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This table above is confusing and contains errors. For some reason AuroTechnologies did not remove from the internet the old 2015 version of their set-up guidelines where this table is from. You should use the 2017 version. It's available from AuroTechnologies on request, or get it from the StormAudio website. See enclosed picture for the correct recommended topspeaker positions from the 2017 document:

Attachment 2668616

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post #6444 of 6481 Old 01-11-2020, 08:04 AM
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After hearing a few Auro-3D music tracks I liked on the demo disc, I thought I might buy a few albums, but after looking at how much they want for Blu-ray audio discs ($30+ each) it's obvious why Blu-ray Audio (whether Atmos or Auro-3D) will fail. Movies historically were always way more than music, but now you can get Blu-ray movies for $5-20 easy, even newer releases on sale and even many 4K Ultra ones for that matter and they come with digital copies to boot!

There's no way I'm paying $30-36 for an album (when historically most artists have only a couple of good songs per album anyway, which is what drove the $1 a song craze in the first place) by some semi-unknown artist just to hear a multichannel mix! These should be $20 or less, IMO.

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post #6445 of 6481 Old 01-11-2020, 07:10 PM
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BT's Electronic Opus doesn't seem to be available anywhere on Blu-Ray Audio (Auro-3D) at any price (might be a used one floating about)....

I did find Mando Diao's Aelita in Auro-3D for a reasonable price ($14.56) on Amazon and it's on its way.

I also ordered Tiesto's Elements of Life in Auro-3D.

Both should be here on Monday.



Is there any way to get a hold of the Auro-3D Vol.1 demo disc still for a reasonable price? I'd mostly like to sample the music tracks to look for another album I might want to buy.

...

I couldn't help but notice on the Auro-3D Demo Disc Vol.2 that there's an 11.1 (7+4) set of test tracks. That seems to imply Auro thought about doing an option for 11.1 AVRs that would use a 7.1 base layout plus 4 overheads (front/rear heights) instead of "top surround" (and center height). It's too bad that didn't go with that option. I think it would have made Auro-3D a lot more competitive with Dolby Atmos and it would have a much more compatible layout as well. The worst thing about Auro-3D is the lack of rear channels on 11.1 AVRs. When Atmos has it and Auro doesn't while Top Surround (VOG) isn't really needed in most homes, it's that much worse.

If Auro supports "top middle" as the VOG channel (or even to work instead of the surround height location), they sure didn't see that it worked in AVRs.... All in all, it seems most of Auro's technical blunders are their own fault. Getting studios to back them in light of Dolby and DTS I can understand.

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post #6446 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 04:46 AM
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Exclamation Errors in table from 2015 document

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Using Top Middles as VoG/TOP is advocated by Auro. I'm not sure adding a Center Height is worth your time/hassle. Definitely find a way to test before cutting any holes.
This table above is confusing and contains errors. For some reason AuroTechnologies did not remove from the internet the old 2015 version of their set-up guidelines where this table is from. You should use the 2017 version. It's available from AuroTechnologies on request, or get it from the StormAudio website. See enclosed picture for the correct recommended topspeaker positions from the 2017 document:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Schermafbeelding 2020-01-12 om 12.42.27.png
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ID:	2668616

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post #6447 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Using Top Middles as VoG/TOP is advocated by Auro. I'm not sure adding a Center Height is worth your time/hassle. Definitely find a way to test before cutting any holes.
This table above is confusing and contains errors. For some reason AuroTechnologies did not remove from the internet the old 2015 version of their set-up guidelines where this table is from. You should use the 2017 version. It's available from AuroTechnologies on request, or get it from the StormAudio website. See enclosed picture for the correct recommended topspeaker positions from the 2017 document:

Attachment 2668616
The first table has different numbers, but at least they're in the right place. The so-called corrected one clearly has elevation and azimuth switched. No overhead top middle is going to be at 57 degrees maximum elevation. They're going to at 90 +/- "x" degrees. Even if you wanted to argue 57 is a side height elevation and 90 azimuth means it's directly to the side, it shows front and rear height elevations at the exact same elevations (57 nominal). That would mean they're all at the same height and so suddenly Auro-3D is "all" side heights with no front/rear height speakers at all. That might be interesting, but it doesn't follow Auro's philosophy of overheads above bed speakers. Besides, it says "tops" and that they're compatible with "other" immersive layouts meaning Dolby and DTS.

The original chart Mark posted and that's still on their web site shows Atmos compatible numbers (e.g. 40-60 elevation for 6 overheads). That makes sense for Atmos compatible tops, but their 4 overhead layout seems closer to DTS.

The new chart clearly revises the numbers to encompass both height and tops locations and more closely matches Dolby's height recommendations with four overheads, but they still have azimuth and height numbers mixed up on the chart.

In other words, both charts are in error for different reasons.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #6448 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
No overhead top middle is going to be at 57 degrees maximum elevation. They're going to at 90 +/- "x" degrees.
Firstly, the "correct" table I posted displays 57.5 degrees as minimum elevation for Top Middles, not maximum elevation. Secondly, these numbers are intended to be lateral elevations, not longitudinal elevations.

Quote:
Even if you wanted to argue 57 is a side height elevation and 90 azimuth means it's directly to the side...
Correct, 57.5 degrees as MINIMUM side (lateral) elevation and 90 degrees as IDEAL azimuth, meaning directly to the side

Quote:
... , it shows front and rear height elevations at the exact same elevations (57 nominal).
Yes, again those are MINIMUM lateral elevations which are the same for all ceiling speakers, effectively putting them all on one line from front to back.

Quote:
That would mean they're all at the same height and so suddenly Auro-3D is "all" side heights with no front/rear height speakers at all. That might be interesting, but it doesn't follow Auro's philosophy of overheads above bed speakers.
Same lateral height that is, with all Auro3D Top speakers still exhibiting a higher inclination (elevation as measured from MLP) as compared to the front and rear heights which will be further away.

Quote:
Besides, it says "tops" and that they're compatible with "other" immersive layouts meaning Dolby and DTS.
And they can be according to this "correct" table.

Quote:
The original chart Mark posted and that's still on their web site shows Atmos compatible numbers (e.g. 40-60 elevation for 6 overheads). That makes sense for Atmos compatible tops, but their 4 overhead layout seems closer to DTS.
However, the azimuth numbers in that table make no sense, no matter how you look at it.

Quote:
The new chart clearly revises the numbers to encompass both height and tops locations and more closely matches Dolby's height recommendations with four overheads, but they still have azimuth and height numbers mixed up on the chart.
Not if you interpret the elevation numbers as lateral elevation, then everything falls into place.

BTW: Some time ago I pointed AuroTechnologies to the inconsistencies in their guidelines, which made them to change this table amongst other things: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post53311450
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Last edited by maikeldepotter; 01-12-2020 at 10:01 AM.
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post #6449 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Given DTS:X is Auro-compatible layout-wise
As can be seen from my signature, I'm still stuck in the past as far as immersive formats are concerned. I do have presence height speakers, as that's what I could do with my receiver back then.


In light of new formats and a switch to 4K, with HDMI 2.1 looming on the horizon, I'm starting to consider options for a new receiver BUT... what you wrote above is worrying me. Are you saying that DTS-X layout is different from Atmos layout? Did they really do that to home consumers?

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post #6450 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
After hearing a few Auro-3D music tracks I liked on the demo disc, I thought I might buy a few albums, but after looking at how much they want for Blu-ray audio discs ($30+ each) it's obvious why Blu-ray Audio (whether Atmos or Auro-3D) will fail. Movies historically were always way more than music, but now you can get Blu-ray movies for $5-20 easy, even newer releases on sale and even many 4K Ultra ones for that matter and they come with digital copies to boot!

There's no way I'm paying $30-36 for an album (when historically most artists have only a couple of good songs per album anyway, which is what drove the $1 a song craze in the first place) by some semi-unknown artist just to hear a multichannel mix! These should be $20 or less, IMO.

Most of my Blu Ray Audio disks have been bought used/new under UK£20. Only paid (considerably) more for some - Kraftwerk Box set and Pink Floyd Immersion.

Then the availability of a lot of older SQ QS CD-4 Quad mixes - Quadraphonics finally comes of age it was just 45 years early.

Note though some Blu Ray-A are just SACD mixes and I will often look at SACD and DVD-A if cheaper.

It's a shame as Blu Ray Audio was (is) the way forward for physical media, but not pushed anything like it needed to be. I doubt most people owning a Blu Ray player even know they are available.

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