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post #6451 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
No overhead top middle is going to be at 57 degrees maximum elevation. They're going to at 90 +/- "x" degrees.
Firstly, the "correct" table I posted displays 57.5 degrees as minimum elevation for Top Middles, not maximum elevation. Secondly, these numbers are intended to be lateral elevations, not longitudinal elevations.

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Even if you wanted to argue 57 is a side height elevation and 90 azimuth means it's directly to the side...
Correct, 57.5 degrees as MINIMUM side (lateral) elevation and 90 degrees as IDEAL azimuth, meaning directly to the side

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... , it shows front and rear height elevations at the exact same elevations (57 nominal).
Yes, again those are MINIMUM lateral elevations which are the same for all ceiling speakers, effectively putting them all on on line form front to back.

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That would mean they're all at the same height and so suddenly Auro-3D is "all" side heights with no front/rear height speakers at all. That might be interesting, but it doesn't follow Auro's philosophy of overheads above bed speakers.
Same lateral height that is, with all Auro3D Top speakers still exhibiting a higher inclination (elevation as measured from MLP) as compared to the front an rear heights which will be further away.

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Besides, it says "tops" and that they're compatible with "other" immersive layouts meaning Dolby and DTS.
And they can be according to this "correct" table.

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The original chart Mark posted and that's still on their web site shows Atmos compatible numbers (e.g. 40-60 elevation for 6 overheads). That makes sense for Atmos compatible tops, but their 4 overhead layout seems closer to DTS.
However, the azimuth numbers in that table make no sense, no matter how you look at it.

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The new chart clearly revises the numbers to encompass both height and tops locations and more closely matches Dolby's height recommendations with four overheads, but they still have azimuth and height numbers mixed up on the chart.
Not if you interpret the elevation numbers as lateral elevation, then everything falls into place.
OK, I see what you mean now, but if those are lateral numbers, they should make that clear in the chart if not a diagram. The normal assumption in a three dimensional grid is one direction as a reference (zero point). Their azimuth numbers are apparently based on facing forward towards the screen location, so why not their elevation?

It's clearly made worse in that their azimuth numbers are also legitimate Atmos "longitudinal" elevation locations for overhead speakers (while 30-ish is "heights", it would still function as a larger part of an array). Indeed, I read that Auro-3D sends TS (VOG) information to ALL height speakers even on systems that also use top surround (VOG). Apparently, this is to create the same basic top layer array effect with what's available.

Given Auro-3D has only functioned up until this point with "height" designated speakers, which are well below those angles, they must expect ALL overheads to simulate that top layer even if they are below the level of their own diagram. Perhaps that's why their "also above you" line in their demo video seems to be at a lower volume level as the heights speakers are meant to be at a lower volume level than the VOG speaker(s). But that would only really make sense when it's configured with a VOG speaker present. Otherwise, the output would be too low (unless perhaps they thought lower volume indicates higher elevation?)

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post #6452 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 11:42 AM
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OK, I see what you mean now, but if those are lateral numbers, they should make that clear in the chart if not a diagram. The normal assumption in a three dimensional grid is one direction as a reference (zero point). Their azimuth numbers are apparently based on facing forward towards the screen location, so why not their elevation?
It is confusing indeed, and it beats me why it's not made clear in the document what the elevation numbers refer to. For the top speakers it's lateral elevation, for the height speakers it's normal elevation, aka inclination. So neither are referring to the longitudinal elevation as used by Atmos.

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I read that Auro-3D sends TS (VOG) information to ALL height speakers even on systems that also use top surround (VOG). Apparently, this is to create the same basic top layer array effect with what's available.
Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting. I guess it's a good way to prevent VOG hotspotting when only having one Top speaker. Question is if the height speakers should still involved with two or four Top speakers dedicated to the VOG channel...

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post #6453 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting. I guess it's a good way to prevent VOG hotspotting when only having one Top speaker. Question is if the height speakers should still involved with two or four Top speakers dedicated to the VOG channel...
I think it's possible they're at a lower volume to indicate it's getting further away (while panning data from either direction would take over from the same said speakers), but without a VOG speaker connected here to test it, I can't be sure. I thought about adding one (I have a free amp channel ready to go with the pre-out already connected even), but due to the steel beam box in my room, I'd need to put up two speakers on either side of it to get even coverage so I just let the combined 4-6 heights handle it. Given I only own 11 movies, 1 demo disc and 1 music disc (two more coming), it didn't seem worth the bother, particularly since DTS:X wouldn't use it due to the 11-channel limit anyway. If I replaced my Onkyo Pro Logic units with ones that have pre-outs, I could then connect the outputs from both of them to a third Pro Logic unit and get a VOG extracted speaker that works with literally everything (I could repurpose one Onkyo for that channel or even both in parallel so each one only has to power one each mono VOG speaker). It'd still take up more rack room, though and I'd probably have to give up my laserdisc player to make it all fit.

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post #6454 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
This table above is confusing and contains errors. For some reason AuroTechnologies did not remove from the internet the old 2015 version of their set-up guidelines where this table is from. You should use the 2017 version. It's available from AuroTechnologies on request, or get it from the StormAudio website. See enclosed picture for the correct recommended topspeaker positions from the 2017 document:

Attachment 2668616
Thanks, I edited the original post to reflect.
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post #6455 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Indeed, I read that Auro-3D sends TS (VOG) information to ALL height speakers even on systems that also use top surround (VOG).
This is only if there is no designated Top/VoG speaker(s). Please provide link if otherwise.
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post #6456 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 03:42 PM
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I think it's possible they're at a lower volume to indicate it's getting further away (while panning data from either direction would take over from the same said speakers),
They are at a lower volume because multiple speakers are reproducing the Top/Vog. I would expect -6dB/each with 4 heights configured.
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post #6457 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 05:11 PM
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This is only if there is no designated Top/VoG speaker(s). Please provide link if otherwise.
I was going by memory and have no idea where to locate what I read as it was over a year ago. However, I figured an easier way to check was to set my AVR to use 5 overheads and compare to 4 overheads (no VOG speaker connection needed). It seems what I read was either only half right or may pertain to a different decoder (e.g. Trinnov, Storm, etc.).

Here, on the Marantz 7012, with 5 overheads (FH + RH + VOG enabled), the front heights do indeed continue to also play the VOG tone (creating a 3-channel array between the front heights and one assumes a single VOG speaker), but the rear heights/surround height do not play. With only 4 overheads (FH + RH), they all play. I find this oddly troubling in a sense because using half the front height speakers will result in an arrayed phantom image in front of the VOG location whereas using front/rear height results in an image pretty much dead center between the two (mid-point of a typical room layout). Now using front height + surround height could result in the same phantom image as the front height + VOG speaker, but the 7012 makes no differentiation between the two (i.e. the output for rear height is always identical to surround height which allows me to use a switchbox to swap them to get "true" Auro-3D in the front half the room if desired as my side heights are right above my side surrounds). I verified this yet again by running the same test with front height + surround height instead.

The issue is that front height + VOG (assuming even levels), would be the first 1/4 of the ceiling (assuming an even speaker distribution) as would front height + surround height without the VOG. But front height + rear height would be the mid-way point of the room. Thus, it would make more sense if the AVR used all 5 overheads with FH+RH+VOG but only 3 (FH+VOG) with surround heights enabled. But this could be a limitation of the firmware in the 7012 (i.e. cheap and dirty compatibility setting to work with rear height, which is why they say it's not optimal). It's possible a Trinnov would/could behave differently making the rear height option more optimal, but I think it already has options to remap speaker locations beyond any single decoder mode.

Now whether you'd want "above you" to be in front of you, I cannot say ("directly above you" sounds more like right above my head so again, the AVR behavior is a bit troubling relative to the announcement in the demo using "Pure Auro-3D" here, but I do prefer it to be right above my head give or take a foot or two. So it seems like adding a true VOG channel speaker would only shove the image forward whereas with FH + RH (and even FH + extracted TM + RH) I get the "VOG" more or less directly overhead. If I do want it forward, I can just swap rear heights for the top middle (side height) speakers and the VOG does indeed image in front of me at about the 45-50 degree (i.e. top front if it were installed) location. If I duplicate side height and rear height, it pulls the image back a bit (due to precedence, not 3/4 back, but about the mid-point of the room (i.e. my MLP is at the 38% location so slightly above and behind me as opposed to a few feet in front of me with only surround height

Ironically, using "Scatmos" extracted "Top Middle" with the AVR set to 4 heights gives me output for the VOG from ALL SIX overhead speakers from Auro-3D in the test. So in a way, I already do have a 6-channel overhead array option like the table suggests. All in all, that gives me 3 different Auro-3D playback options (technically 4 if I bypassed the extraction processors using their bypass mode).



Auro VOG effects here sitting at the 37% point in a 24' room with heights and top middle available:

1> FH + RH (TM bypass) --- Results in VOG almost directly overhead (slightly forward due to sitting closer to the front), but more dispersed due to the long angle. From other seats, it pulls towards the nearer speaker (precedence) so in the middle row it's almost overhead and the back it's still almost overhead, but slightly behind and more distinct since you're much closer to the rear heights.

2> FH + TM + RH (6ch VOG array) -- Results in the VOG nearly directly overhead and distinct (from the second row, it pulls back a little due to precedence, but above in front and almost directly at the mid-point of the room and at a point further back but just in front of and above the back row seat). So it's always nearly directly overhead wherever you sit (array effect) relative to you, but moves along the line back through the room.

3> FH + SH (rear disabled) -- Results in the VOG being about 1/4 into the room overhead (about where top front would be more or less). Mid row, pulls towards middle. Rear row, sounds like the ceiling in the middle of the room far in front of the chair.

4> FH + SH + RH (RH/SH run in parallel via switchbox which emulates uses an array of "surround heights" like the cinema, except they obviously have a real VOG speaker array too which may not use these then if they act like the 7012) -- With VOG only, it behaves like the 6CH array as it IS the 6CH array again for just that speaker. But for using the heights to pan, it acts like having a set of speakers 2/3 into the room for the 2nd/3rd rows, but doesn't move that much for the front row due to precedence near the top middle speaker locale (does seem 1.5-2dB louder or so now though)

Those are the results I can get in my own home theater. If I added the VOG, I would likely get:

5> FG + VOG (SH/RH disabled by AVR) -- VOG appears to image in front of and above the MLP (how far depends on how loud the VOG is relative to the front heights, but it would be more or less just like #3 above. (From the second and third rows, it would sound much like #3 above also).

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They are at a lower volume because multiple speakers are reproducing the Top/Vog. I would expect -6dB/each with 4 heights configured.
I was referring to the overall volume in that part of the demo with all four speakers active being lower than when the guy is speaking in those various speakers, not the level of a single speaker (i.e. I don't have the VOG speaker connected to compare, just the volume of the other speakers). It's possible it's the demo itself, however. Sadly, the Auro-3D provided tones on their demo discs are sine wave tones, which are difficult to get an exact reading as moving the meter even slightly greatly alters the reading, but to my ears, it sounded much closer to even with a sine tone with all four playing than when the video says, "and also above you" that is sent to the VOG channel. Pink noise would have been preferable to verify the levels more easily.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

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post #6458 of 6481 Old 01-12-2020, 06:04 PM
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I was going by memory and have no idea where to locate what I read as it was over a year ago. However, I figured an easier way to check was to set my AVR to use 5 overheads and compare to 4 overheads (no VOG speaker connection needed). It seems what I read was either only half right or may pertain to a different decoder (e.g. Trinnov, Storm, etc.).



Here, on the Marantz 7012, with 5 overheads (FH + RH + VOG enabled), the front heights do indeed continue to also play the VOG tone (creating a 3-channel array between the front heights and one assumes a single VOG speaker), but the rear heights/surround height do not play. With only 4 overheads (FH + RH), they all play. I find this oddly troubling in a sense because using half the front height speakers will result in an arrayed phantom image in front of the VOG location whereas using front/rear height results in an image pretty much dead center between the two (mid-point of a typical room layout). Now using front height + surround height could result in the same phantom image as the front height + VOG speaker, but the 7012 makes no differentiation between the two (i.e. the output for rear height is always identical to surround height which allows me to use a switchbox to swap them to get "true" Auro-3D in the front half the room if desired as my side heights are right above my side surrounds). I verified this yet again by running the same test with front height + surround height instead.
Thanks for testing this. What an unexpected result. Further fuel to my opinion that a single Top/VoG speaker is a waste in most scenarios, especially with in-ceiling overhead speakers. I'd guess this is not by design.


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Sadly, the Auro-3D provided tones on their demo discs are sine wave tones, which are difficult to get an exact reading as moving the meter even slightly greatly alters the reading, but to my ears, it sounded much closer to even with a sine tone with all four playing than when the video says, "and also above you" that is sent to the VOG channel. Pink noise would have been preferable to verify the levels more easily.
I do believe there is a track or two with pink noise on the Vol. 1 demo disc. I have an extra. Sending you PM.
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post #6459 of 6481 Old 01-13-2020, 05:03 PM
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Mando Diao's "Aelita" and Tiesto's "Elements of Life" have arrived in Auro-3D. Their demos were quite good, IMO so I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of the albums in Auro-3D.

Edit: Given that Mando Diao had a video on the Auro-3D demo disc for "Black Saturday" I was kind of surprised to see that these "Blu-Ray Audio" discs have no video whatsoever on them, just a very VERY CHEAP menu to select the songs. I've seen better interfaces on CD+Graphics 30 years ago! The same is true for the Tiesto album. Dumping it to KODI results in an MKV file with chapters and a black screen (i.e. I hope your remote has chapter forward buttons). At least the disc in the player will tell you (in very small print) the name of the song playing. I'm thinking it might be better to bust these into individual files in Handbrake or something so I can at least select songs directly from the KODI menu system. The chapters aren't even directly labeled inside the MKV file so good luck remembering what song is what without some editing.

In short, it's hard to imagine this "format" taking off with so little thought given to playback. If there's no videos, they could at least put a menu system of some kind in place. The few DVD-Audio and DTS Music discs I bought all had menus.

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post #6460 of 6481 Old 01-13-2020, 09:10 PM
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@MagnumX these are audio Blu-rays, this is how they are (no video). I agree that this format will not take off (many of these are 2ch 24/96) nor should it with lossless and object-based streaming options.
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post #6461 of 6481 Old 01-13-2020, 09:31 PM
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I was thinking the discs would be more of a hybrid thing where a music video would be there if it existed (like on the Auro demo disc) and menu or photograph slide show or something would be there on tracks without videos. It is a blu-ray, after all. That's why I find it disappointing in that regard. I really liked the video for "Black Saturday" for example with the crazy tour truck that looks like Las Vegas and the one band guy looks like Billy Idol's second coming or something. The video isn't even on the actual album, just the Auro demo disc (I guess the demo discs are good for something).

I'm thinking now that other titles that had videos (probably over a half dozen) probably also have no video on their albums if that's the way they do it. I don't know why I can't have video plus immersive audio. I was hoping David Gilmour's Pompeii concert (like the old Pink Floyd one only with an actual audience) would have immersive audio. Nope. 5.1. So much for cutting edge with the former head of post-waters Pink Floyd (oddly the Roger Waters "Wall" documentary has Atmos, but not the full concert so I didn't bother after watching it for free on TV. I don't know why they couldn't have the full concert and the documentary separate. Sheesh.

What I ended up doing was putting the ripped MKV files into Handbrake and since there's no video turning the video to the worst possible setting and putting full passthrough on the DTS-HD tracks (including Auro) plus a high bit-rate stereo track to use in other rooms and manually entering the track names into the chapter list for the songs so at least KODI would show the name of the track with the blank video and I could keep the whole album together so I don't have to click to start each track. Whether the video setting made a difference, I don't know, but using AAC for the stereo track saved some real space (they went from 10GB and 14GB down to 6GB and 10GB for two sets of passed through DTS-HD tracks and 192 AAC stereo.

One would think Apple would be in a good place to jump on Atmos based music, at least. I think Prime is adding Atmos songs to their rental music service, but the last time I checked, you cannot play Atmos audio from Prime or ANY APP on a FireTV without a 4K TV connected (very short-sighted, IMO as the audio has absolutely nothing to do with the 4K video, particularly for music, but the FireTV itself is set up to not even offer Atmos in the audio menu without 4K detection regardless. Apple and Roku seem to be the only ones to not tie everything to 4K automatically.

I've thought about getting a 4K projector (there was almost nothing out yet but Sony when I got my current Epson 2K/3D a few years ago), but single chip DLP sucks (rainbows galore) and Sony true 4K is very expensive with very dim projection. Epson has some bright models, but they are fake e-shift 4K. I'd say good enough, but the new models I could just swap out don't even have wide color gamut support. There are ones that do but weight 25+ pounds so I'd have to rip open my steel box and install a brace or something (not looking forward to that). DLP weigh like 8 pounds. New Epsons are 14-15 pounds (similar to my existing projector and mount, but lack wide color gamut so what's the point? The extra resolution is 20% at best on a 92" screen at that distance. That's why I find it aggravating when these guys tie immersive audio to 4K artificially as I'd rather have a decent 2K projector and a large screen than a 55" screen and OLED. The "immersion" level is miles apart. I've got a 48" plasma and a 55" QLED, the latter with 4K and like 2000 NITs. HDR doesn't impress me that much compared to a huge screen. I'd go larger than 92" if my room would support it. I can do a 115" 2.35:1 screen (same height, but wider) if I go with the heavier zoom-capable projector setup. I'd also have to move my front height speakers over further, but it should fit. It might be too large from the front row, though 9 Feet from a 115" screen is pretty big. You'd almost have to turn your head to see what's on the sides (it'd be great from the second row).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)

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post #6462 of 6481 Old 01-13-2020, 10:05 PM
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Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before: I have a few Blu-ray discs with AURO 3D and a Marantz receiver that is AURO 3D capable. Do I need a special Blu-ray player that is AURO 3D capable? What models are available? Would the Sony BP-X800M2 play the AURO 3D tracks? The Sony manual is silent on AURO 3D. Thank you.
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post #6463 of 6481 Old 01-13-2020, 10:48 PM
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Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before: I have a few Blu-ray discs with AURO 3D and a Marantz receiver that is AURO 3D capable. Do I need a special Blu-ray player that is AURO 3D capable? What models are available? Would the Sony BP-X800M2 play the AURO 3D tracks? The Sony manual is silent on AURO 3D. Thank you.
It's hidden in the DTS tracks so as long as your player can pass DTS-HD, it will probably work just fine.
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post #6464 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by W_Harding View Post
Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before: I have a few Blu-ray discs with AURO 3D and a Marantz receiver that is AURO 3D capable. Do I need a special Blu-ray player that is AURO 3D capable? What models are available? Would the Sony BP-X800M2 play the AURO 3D tracks? The Sony manual is silent on AURO 3D. Thank you.
You must manually select Auro3D/Auromatic mode with Auro3D encoded as Dts:X.

What model Marantz?
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post #6465 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 09:24 AM
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Auro 3d

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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It's hidden in the DTS tracks so as long as your player can pass DTS-HD, it will probably work just fine.
Got it. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What model Marantz?
Marantz SR7013.


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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You must manually select Auro3D/Auromatic mode with Auro3D encoded as Dts:X.
Thank you for your reply. When I manually select Auro3D/Auromatic mode with Auro3D encoded as dts:X, is the selection, you are referring to made in the receiver or Blu-ray disc player?


I may be out of luck, in any case, because my speaker configuration is set up for Dolby ATMOS using Top Front and Top Rear speakers mounted in the ceiling. The Marantz manual is telling me that I need Front Height and Rear Height speakers for AURO 3D.



From page 11 of the Marantz owner's manual:
Auro-3D does not support a Dolby Atmos configuration using Top Front, Top Middle or Top Rear speakers. But it is possible to support both an Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos by adding Front Height and Rear Height speakers* to a 5.1 configuration.


*For an optimum Auro-3D experience Surround Height speakers are strongly recommended.
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post #6466 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by W_Harding View Post
Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before: I have a few Blu-ray discs with AURO 3D and a Marantz receiver that is AURO 3D capable. Do I need a special Blu-ray player that is AURO 3D capable? What models are available? Would the Sony BP-X800M2 play the AURO 3D tracks? The Sony manual is silent on AURO 3D. Thank you.
I have a Marantz AVR that is Auro capable but there is a charge from Marantz to enable it. Make sure your receiver is authorized or you wont get anything.
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post #6467 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 12:12 PM
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ARUO 3D Included

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I have a Marantz AVR that is Auro capable but there is a charge from Marantz to enable it. Make sure your receiver is authorized or you wont get anything.
AURO 3D is included in the original purchase price of the Marantz SR7013. It may be that for some models, there is an upcharge and others not. My Denon requires an upcharge to activate AURO 3D.

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post #6468 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 01:25 PM
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I have a Marantz AVR that is Auro capable but there is a charge from Marantz to enable it. Make sure your receiver is authorized or you wont get anything.
Marantz started including Auro 3D from the factory for FREE beginning with the 2017 Marantz SR7012 and SR8012.
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post #6469 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 02:25 PM
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When I manually select Auro3D/Auromatic mode with Auro3D encoded as dts:X, is the selection, you are referring to made in the receiver or Blu-ray disc player?
Marantz AVR
Quote:
I may be out of luck, in any case, because my speaker configuration is set up for Dolby ATMOS using Top Front and Top Rear speakers mounted in the ceiling. The Marantz manual is telling me that I need Front Height and Rear Height speakers for AURO 3D.
Correct, simply reconfigure from TOPs to HEIGHTs and you will playback all 3 formats.
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post #6470 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 07:12 PM
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Marantz AVR

Correct, simply reconfigure from TOPs to HEIGHTs and you will playback all 3 formats.
Thank you Marc.
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post #6471 of 6481 Old 01-14-2020, 07:47 PM
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I've only listened to the first three tracks each of Lichtmond 3, Mando Diao's Aelita and Tiesto's Elements of Life, but darn they make good use of the surround speakers. "Feel The Spirit" on Lichtmond 3 does more impressive things than most movies without sounding ridiculous. It has a bit of Pink Floyd vibe as well in places. Mando Diao's big influence is supposed to be the Beatles, but I sense more Billy Idol than Beatles in "Black Saturday" (the one band member even sports a similar hairdo). I've got Spektral Quartet's Serious Business coming now as well (It has Auro-3D and Atmos mixes).

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post #6472 of 6481 Old 01-15-2020, 10:23 AM
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I've only listened to the first three tracks each of Lichtmond 3, Mando Diao's Aelita and Tiesto's Elements of Life, but darn they make good use of the surround speakers. "Feel The Spirit" on Lichtmond 3 does more impressive things than most movies without sounding ridiculous. It has a bit of Pink Floyd vibe as well in places. Mando Diao's big influence is supposed to be the Beatles, but I sense more Billy Idol than Beatles in "Black Saturday" (the one band member even sports a similar hairdo). I've got Spektral Quartet's Serious Business coming now as well (It has Auro-3D and Atmos mixes).
I *love* the Lichtmond 3 album. A true proof of the utility of Auro-3D.
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post #6473 of 6481 Old 01-15-2020, 10:49 AM
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I *love* the Lichtmond 3 album. A true proof of the utility of Auro-3D.
Have you watched Lichtmond 4 - The Journey yet? It uses Atmos instead. I haven't heard it yet and I don't know how the music compares as to whether it's worth getting or not. The first two albums had 3D video, but only 7.1 audio. They're pretty pricey to import as well.

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post #6474 of 6481 Old 01-15-2020, 10:58 AM
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Have you watched Lichtmond 4 - The Journey yet? It uses Atmos instead. I haven't heard it yet and I don't know how the music compares as to whether it's worth getting or not. The first two albums had 3D video, but only 7.1 audio. They're pretty pricey to import as well.
I have not! I'll be sure to check it out.
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Hi MagnumX,

i have a 5.2.5 setup with on the back wall (i sit in the middle of a 4x 5meter room) my surrounds, so behind me, and above the surrounds my Rear Height speakers.
Should I use them as Rear Height or a Surround Height ?
I only use the Auro-Matic as upmixer for all my audio modes, including Atmos.

Thanks
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post #6476 of 6481 Old 01-16-2020, 10:49 AM
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Hi MagnumX,

i have a 5.2.5 setup with on the back wall (i sit in the middle of a 4x 5meter room) my surrounds, so behind me, and above the surrounds my Rear Height speakers.
Should I use them as Rear Height or a Surround Height ?
I only use the Auro-Matic as upmixer for all my audio modes, including Atmos.

Thanks
Believe it or not, in my experience there is ZERO difference between the two settings other than Atmos won't work with surround height set. In other words, the "surround height" channel is what it is. It's a channel and it's not modified either way by selecting either option. The output remains the same either way.

I use "rear height" and then when I want "true Auro-3D" I use an external speaker selector to either move or copy (box has A/B for both and On/Off for both so copying drives both in parallel basically) the rear height to the surround height speakers (the other option is my "Scatmos" Pro Logic decoder that extracts a "middle" channel between and that works for Auro-3D too with rear height so it depends on how many rows of seats I'm using really or whether I'm too lazy to switch it over which would mean getting up. )

So, in other words, what matters is the speaker position not the setting. On an 8500, you could let the AVR use the one setup to switch speakers for you by setting different speakers for each, but on all other models, it's just a setting that disables Atmos IMO.
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post #6477 of 6481 Old 01-16-2020, 07:36 PM
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For Auro3D there is no true rear height position. Every processor (including the StormAudio, which was a branch of Auro that split off) either treats Rear Height and Surround Height interchangeably, or doesn't even have RH as a choice for the Auro layout (Trinnov). Most processors (just not D+M) reroute Surround Height to Top Rear without any user intervention.
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post #6478 of 6481 Old 01-17-2020, 10:18 AM
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Hello! Jumping in the discussion with different questions:
I'm slowly finishing the restyling of the room: relocation of the large table to be settled behind the mlp, close to the back wall (VBSS will go orizontally under it!). Tents and audio absorbing materials on front and back walls. Added 4 loudspeakers on the ceiling: 2 Klipsch Cp6 as Middle Height (same as FH and RH), to be driven from 2 Onkyo 600 pro logic decoders.
2 smaller loudspeakers will serve as Vog channel (90° elevation from mlp on the ceiling). Here is the question: how to link these to the ampli, series or parallel way? Amplifier is an old Pioneer vsx lx50 for all the main 5 ceiling speakers.
Have also bought another center channel ls, and would like to use one of them high on the front wall, as a pseudo dialog lift usage. Recommendation on this placement, also (wiring, etc.)?
Thanks for reading
Regards
Alessandro

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post #6479 of 6481 Old 01-17-2020, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
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For Auro3D there is no true rear height position. Every processor (including the StormAudio, which was a branch of Auro that split off) either treats Rear Height and Surround Height interchangeably, or doesn't even have RH as a choice for the Auro layout (Trinnov). Most processors (just not D+M) reroute Surround Height to Top Rear without any user intervention.
And yet Auro's own diagrams for 8.1, 9.1, etc. show the "side surrounds" in positions more resembling "rear surrounds" with the "surround height" speakers right above them. Thus, I can only conclude that having the "surround/rear height" speakers above the bed location is more important than the actual location of the "surround" speakers themselves.

Notice where the "surround" speakers are in this diagram of Auro 10.1. They are in the back of the room with the mains in the front of the room (square rectangle). The seating position is somewhere in-between. The surrounds aren't "rear" because they are 5.1 so they are just "surrounds". But they are clearly sitting in a rear location as are the heights above them. Given Auro-3D 8.1 --> 11.1 is a 5.1 based configuration, this makes sense.





Next we have the home cinema version of Auro 11.1. Notice how there are "surround height" speakers above both side and rear speakers. These are copies of the surround and surround height speakers, but are needed to convey a surrounding image to more than one row of seats. Thus, "surround height" is also rear height as you want speakers above as many bed speakers as is practical for the room.





This is also true at the Cinema for Auro 11.1:




Now for Auro 13.1, I was only able to find the basic height layer diagram and it does show only surround height above the side surrounds (and now that 13.1 is based on 7.1 instead of 5.1, there are actually "side" surrounds. But the basic deployment would still likely hold true that even with discrete rears, you'd still want the surround height to envelop all the seats in a multi-row theater so you'd want copies behind you above the rears as well.


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post #6480 of 6481 Old 01-17-2020, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Hello! Jumping in the discussion with different questions:
I'm slowly finishing the restyling of the room: relocation of the large table to be settled behind the mlp, close to the back wall (VBSS will go orizontally under it!). Tents and audio absorbing materials on front and back walls. Added 4 loudspeakers on the ceiling: 2 Klipsch Cp6 as Middle Height (same as FH and RH), to be driven from 2 Onkyo 600 pro logic decoders.
2 smaller loudspeakers will serve as Vog channel (90° elevation from mlp on the ceiling). Here is the question: how to link these to the ampli, series or parallel way? Amplifier is an old Pioneer vsx lx50 for all the main 5 ceiling speakers.
Have also bought another center channel ls, and would like to use one of them high on the front wall, as a pseudo dialog lift usage. Recommendation on this placement, also (wiring, etc.)?
Thanks for reading
Regards
Alessandro
I'd follow placement similar to what you see in the diagrams in my message above. The VOG speakers should be wired together on one amp according to their impedance and the ability of the amplifier to drive them at level. If they are 8 Ohm nominal, parallel will probably suffice. If they are 4 ohm nominal, you might be better off with a series wiring (boosting impedance to 8 ohms) for example. With only two VOG speakers wired that way, you will have to decide whether to do "front to back" or "side to side" (both array with a phantom image in-between them). I'd recommend front to back as that leaves it in the center for any and all rows of seats, but side-to-side could be set up to be compatible as "top middle" speakers for Atmos (using a mixer to have both through them), but in that case you'd want to power them separately, not with the same amp.
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