The official Auro 3D thread (home theater version) - Page 217 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6481 of 6562 Old 01-17-2020, 11:44 AM
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Yes, front to back for Vog speakers will separate sound better from the closest ones: top middle speakers! As my space is 6 meters long and 3,3 wide.
Moreover, this could also help blending with center and "center height" voice intelligibility (as these are also placed horizontally in front of Mlp)!
Thanks for your support!
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post #6482 of 6562 Old 01-28-2020, 03:22 PM
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Has anyone used a di-pole type configuration for the VOG speaker? Something like this:
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod.../core/c380-fx/

Just wondering if it might help with making VOG less localisable although I suppose phase and voice matching could be a problem.
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post #6483 of 6562 Old 01-28-2020, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Has anyone used a di-pole type configuration for the VOG speaker? Something like this:
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod.../core/c380-fx/

Just wondering if it might help with making VOG less localisable although I suppose phase and voice matching could be a problem.
To be on the safe side, you could use something like a PSB "S" surround that can be set to be either a bipole, dipole or two-channel input speaker. That way if the dipole effect is undesirable sounding, you could still switch to bipole mode and it would be like having two speakers that each face a different direction (especially handy if you have multiples rows of seats) situated side-by-side. I think there's some tripole speakers out there as well. Keep in mind that the Auro-3D encoder will also keep the front heights active for the VOG as well, so you will get more than one speaker outputting it even with a dedicated VOG speaker (or at least that's how it behaves here on my Marantz 7012).
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post #6484 of 6562 Old 01-28-2020, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Has anyone used a di-pole type configuration for the VOG speaker? Something like this:
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod.../core/c380-fx/

Just wondering if it might help with making VOG less localisable although I suppose phase and voice matching could be a problem.
XTZ makes a speaker that can be mounted on the ceiling with a special plate they have, if its nice to see i do not know.
I use two KEF T101 C above the MLP as VOG and it works fine, i would even like to hear them a bit more
Here the XTZ speaker and it can be set as Direct Fire, Bipole and Dipole.
https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/cinema-s5-dipole-3x
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post #6485 of 6562 Old 01-29-2020, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
To be on the safe side, you could use something like a PSB "S" surround that can be set to be either a bipole, dipole or two-channel input speaker. That way if the dipole effect is undesirable sounding, you could still switch to bipole mode and it would be like having two speakers that each face a different direction (especially handy if you have multiples rows of seats) situated side-by-side. I think there's some tripole speakers out there as well. Keep in mind that the Auro-3D encoder will also keep the front heights active for the VOG as well, so you will get more than one speaker outputting it even with a dedicated VOG speaker (or at least that's how it behaves here on my Marantz 7012).
Thanks, interesting post. The linked Monitor Audio speaker is switchable between bi-pole and di-pole and I could do that from my remote control (I use 12V triggers in this way with my current surrounds). The spread on that Monitor Audio speaker looks slightly forward and left and right so in my single row setup maybe it is not desirable.
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post #6486 of 6562 Old 01-30-2020, 12:32 PM
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Thanks to a beam in the ceiling I have to place my VOG 400mm forward or 400mm back from directly above the single seating row. Since these offer a slight angle and should voice math the others I'm going to give one of these a try for VOG only:
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod.../core/c380-fx/

If I go with a standard direct radiating speaker is 400mm in front or 400mm behind directly above likely to be better?

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post #6487 of 6562 Old 01-30-2020, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Thanks to a beam in the ceiling I have to place my VOG 400mm forward or 400mm back from directly above the single seating row. Since these offer a slight angle and should voice math the others I'm going to give one of these a try for VOG only:
https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/prod.../core/c380-fx/
If I go with a standard direct radiating speaker is 400mm in front or 400mm behind directly above likely to be better?
Either way (I'd go with the Bipole) 40cm forward of the seating would be better than behind.

Because VoG/Top is so sparsely used, consider using the C380 for a Center Height rather than VoG. If you don't assign VoG that content will play from either the Top Middles or all of your Top speakers.

IMAX immersive audio is 12.1 and is being delivered to the home as Dts:X 7.1.4 + 1 static object (IMAX enhanced).
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post #6488 of 6562 Old 01-30-2020, 02:18 PM
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Either way (I'd go with the Bipole) 40cm forward of the seating would be better than behind.

Because VoG/Top is so sparsely used, consider using the C380 for a Center Height rather than VoG. If you don't assign VoG that content will play from either the Top Middles or all of your Top speakers.

IMAX immersive audio is 12.1 and is being delivered to the home as Dts:X 7.1.4 + 1 static object (IMAX enhanced).
Thanks Marc, I'm looking at 7.2.6. After laying out the Top Heights Front and Top height backs I'm seriously considering if I should just go standard 7.2.6 instead. My Arcam only supports 7.2.6 standard or 7.2.6 (CH & VOG); I simply cannot fit wides in my room (I need 2 subs anyway so that isn't a big problem). Assuming the Arcam get DTS:X pro the decision seems to be balanced against how may Atmos cut-out tracks are out there vs Imax DTS:X Pro / Auro 3D / Auromatic use.

The gap between the front and back tops is much more than I expected in my room (It is very close to the ideal 45 deg from the listening position and look surprisingly similar to the Dolby diagram but does leave the space directly above the listening position surprisingly clear.

My room layout is attached (Currently 7.1), as you will see my Surround Backs are a bit too wide due to a window being in the way. Any thoughts or ideas about this would be appreciated, I have an electrician coming on Tuesday to run the wire and cut the holes in the ceiling.
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post #6489 of 6562 Old 02-04-2020, 08:12 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but what blurays and or ultra HD movies are auro 3D? Also, will any optical player work?

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post #6490 of 6562 Old 02-04-2020, 08:51 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but what blurays and or ultra HD movies are auro 3D? Also, will any optical player work?

Thanks


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https://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/bluray/

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post #6491 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 02:31 AM
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So it doesn’t seem there’s much material for home use in Auro-3D... are people still using that speaker layout and just using DTS-X most of the time? What about when material is just Dolby atmos, how does one accomplish speaker layout since it’s not compatible?


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post #6492 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 03:25 AM
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So it doesn’t seem there’s much material for home use in Auro-3D... are people still using that speaker layout and just using DTS-X most of the time? What about when material is just Dolby atmos, how does one accomplish speaker layout since it’s not compatible?


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I've covered all I have to say on the topic here if you want to go back and read it in more detail. Suffice to say, the notion that Auro-3D layouts "are not compatible" with Atmos is absolute nonsense, especially in smaller rooms or using their combined layout (i.e. front/rear heights). I use side heights for top middle that are extracted from front/rear heights using Pro Logic and let it bleed through a bit to phantom image over slightly so it's in line for Atmos and a speaker switch for "true" Auro-3D, but that true mode works great for 5.1.4 Atmos too (without any phantom correction). It's only a 2.5' difference in placement to begin with. So the images move every so slightly outward. It's unnoticeable from the MLP. Most Auro mixes are made from the same master anyway (where I have both, they almost always sound extremely similar, especially played through the same speaker layout). No, there's not many Auro titles. There's some nice music titles and two Auro only movies. Unless things change, I wouldn't go out of my way to accommodate it.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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post #6493 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 04:18 AM
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I've covered all I have to say on the topic here if you want to go back and read it in more detail. Suffice to say, the notion that Auro-3D layouts "are not compatible" with Atmos is absolute nonsense, especially in smaller rooms or using their combined layout (i.e. front/rear heights). I use side heights for top middle that are extracted from front/rear heights using Pro Logic and let it bleed through a bit to phantom image over slightly so it's in line for Atmos and a speaker switch for "true" Auro-3D, but that true mode works great for 5.1.4 Atmos too (without any phantom correction). It's only a 2.5' difference in placement to begin with. So the images move every so slightly outward. It's unnoticeable from the MLP. Most Auro mixes are made from the same master anyway (where I have both, they almost always sound extremely similar, especially played through the same speaker layout). No, there's not many Auro titles. There's some nice music titles and two Auro only movies. Unless things change, I wouldn't go out of my way to accommodate it.

However, nearly all home movies are both DTS-X and Dolby Atmos, and since DTS doesn’t care, there’s that... right?


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post #6494 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 04:37 AM
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So it doesn’t seem there’s much material for home use in Auro-3D... are people still using that speaker layout and just using DTS-X most of the time? What about when material is just Dolby atmos, how does one accomplish speaker layout since it’s not compatible?


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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I've covered all I have to say on the topic here if you want to go back and read it in more detail. Suffice to say, the notion that Auro-3D layouts "are not compatible" with Atmos is absolute nonsense, especially in smaller rooms or using their combined layout (i.e. front/rear heights). I use side heights for top middle that are extracted from front/rear heights using Pro Logic and let it bleed through a bit to phantom image over slightly so it's in line for Atmos and a speaker switch for "true" Auro-3D, but that true mode works great for 5.1.4 Atmos too (without any phantom correction). It's only a 2.5' difference in placement to begin with. So the images move every so slightly outward. It's unnoticeable from the MLP. Most Auro mixes are made from the same master anyway (where I have both, they almost always sound extremely similar, especially played through the same speaker layout). No, there's not many Auro titles. There's some nice music titles and two Auro only movies. Unless things change, I wouldn't go out of my way to accommodate it.
I had the opportunity to build the Home Cinema from scratch in the living room (not dedicated) in the recent renovation of the house with very good WAF level. This way, I put all the needed speakers for Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D, using Speaker Switches as needed. Also with an active mixer use the Center High speaker, not only for Auro-3D but for the more valuable function of a copy of Center (low) Speaker for "Dialog Lift" when you have big projector screen.

Apart from the few native Auro-3D titles, some of us enjoy the Auromatic upmixer from Auro-3D that give good result for many Stereo and 5.1 Music tracks. A good alternative to the Dolby DSU upmixer for music. My opinion, and for many others, I think, is that DTS Neural:X upmixer is worst for music and perhaps better for (some) movies. It's good to have options and alternatives to compare and chose the ones that like most.
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post #6495 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 05:49 AM
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I had the opportunity to build the Home Cinema from scratch in the living room (not dedicated) in the recent renovation of the house with very good WAF level. This way, I put all the needed speakers for Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D, using Speaker Switches as needed. Also with an active mixer use the Center High speaker, not only for Auro-3D but for the more valuable function of a copy of Center (low) Speaker for "Dialog Lift" when you have big projector screen.



Apart from the few native Auro-3D titles, some of us enjoy the Auromatic upmixer from Auro-3D that give good result for many Stereo and 5.1 Music tracks. A good alternative to the Dolby DSU upmixer for music. My opinion, and for many others, I think, is that DTS Neural:X upmixer is worst for music and perhaps better for (some) movies. It's good to have options and alternatives to compare and chose the ones that like most.


Please tell me more about this Auromatic upmixer.

Also, can you please detail how do you do the speaker switching?


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post #6496 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 06:31 AM
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Please tell me more about this Auromatic upmixer.

Also, can you please detail how do you do the speaker switching?


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C&T,

Yes, if I correctly read the intent into your questions, if you have the interest, time, and money, it might be worth your while to set up, according to spec, concurrent Auro 3D and Atmos layouts so that you can judge for yourself, in your space, how the respective upmixers work and ultimately which audio standard appeals to you, instead of listening to what us self-appointed experts on the subject have to say. I did it in my dedicated theater. It was a bit of a hassle. Yet I had a Denon 8500 that offered those choices. And yes I had to buy used twenty Martin Logan SLMs, two Motion 40s, one 50XT, extra 14# speaker cable, and every natively-encoded Auro-3D Bluray and/or 4K discs and their Atmos/DTS counterpart to make it all happen. But the journey was immensely fun, interesting, and taught me more than anything I could have read here about how these audio standards differ and which, if any, lived up the its claimed promises. It didn't really take that long. But it was so worth it. I'm at peace now. I have no lingering questions.

If you are on that same journey, I envy you.
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post #6497 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 09:00 AM
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Please tell me more about this Auromatic upmixer.

Also, can you please detail how do you do the speaker switching?


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The Auromatic Upmixer try to generate the sonic bubble that native Auro-3D mixes are supposed to provide. It expands the sound to above and your listening room seems bigger. It copies the bed channels (5.1 or 7.1) to the height channels (Front High, Center High, Surround High, Top Surround) and applies some reverberation as if the sound was happening in a bigger room/hall.

When upmixing from stereo, I do not know how it generates the other bed channels, but it is more subtle and less dynamic/aggressive than the Dolby DSU or DTS Neural:X upmixers. Those other upmixers can potentially do things like “extract” and separate a particular sound/instrument from the stereo to rear channels. For example you listen the keyboards, some guitar, or chorus voices from the rear instead of from the front stereo. This “special effects”, depending on the source mix and on the music genre, may be very amazing, like in electronic music, or very strange/bad as in classical music if you expect all sound coming from the front stage and not a violin from the rear.

Auromatic tries to generate something like the original Auro-3D live recordings intention. They record with a pack of microphones capturing floor level sounds and height level sounds from the different micros positions and generates that each of the Auro-3D channels this way. Thus it sounds more “natural” as if you were there at the concert Hall instead of at you “small” room.

For my Speaker Switching design, please find attached the .ZIP with an Excel with some of the design sketches. If you find something in Spanish, please use google translator. I only translated the essential.
In the four Worksheets you will find:

Speaker Design – Some design ideas and the actual speaker commutation switches of H1, H2, H3 output binding posts. In the names of each one of the eight configuration you have notes (in Spanish) that explain the purpose of each configuration.

Mixer Scheme – Mixer/amp to implement Dialog Lift to the Central to Central High Speaker

Switch Design – Actual Scheme of the Switching connections

Programming Switch SONOFF – The table of the programming settings for the SONOFF switches

How it works:

I can command the switches from the Mobile Application and also from Alexa (Amazon Echo) to select one of the different Eight Configurations.
BUT…. Is not as quick as that, because each configuration has its own Denon 8500 configuration with different Audyssey calibrations. So, for each change I must load from a different USB stick the corresponding configuration. (Just a minute or so)
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File Type: zip Speaker Switch Design.zip (903.0 KB, 27 views)
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post #6498 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 09:24 AM
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It copies the bed channels (5.1 or 7.1) to the height channels (Front High, Center High, Surround High, Top Surround) and applies some reverberation as if the sound was happening in a bigger room/hall.
There is also some channel mixing that happens when generating height channels from multi-channel sources. Each of the 4 main height channels gets most of its content from the channel directly below, a little less from the adjacent channels, and least from the diagonally opposite channel.

For example: the left Front Height speaker gets most of its content copied from the left Front channel (directly below), a little less content copied from the left Surround channel & right Front channel (adjacent channels), and least amount of content copied from the right Surround channel (diagonally opposite). If you unplug all your speakers except the left Front Height and play test tones through the base layer speakers, you can hear what (and how much) of each base layer channel ends up in the left Front Height speaker.
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When upmixing from stereo, I do not know how it generates the other bed channels...
Same basic approach you described for generating height channels: copies the L/R channels, lowers the level, rolls off the highs, adds reverb (that wasn't in the original recording).
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post #6499 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 01:26 PM
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When upmixing from stereo, I do not know how it generates the other bed channels, but it is more subtle and less dynamic/aggressive than the Dolby DSU or DTS Neural:X upmixers.
It copies in-phase material mainly to the center channel and out of phase material to the surrounds. But it only copies those, it doesn't remove any material from the L&R (so the original soundstage is left intact). The how strongly it does it can be adjusted with the strength setting but that also changes the strength of the added reverb unfortunately. It would be nice to have a separate control of each.


That's for the regular modes in the lower-level Auromatic which most have. If you have an 8500 or some of the other high-end processors with "movie mode" it may remove that material from the L&R, but I don't have that and thus haven't tested it to see exactly what it does.
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post #6500 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 02:14 PM
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Auromatic adds too much bass, IMO. It needs bass correction as part of the mode, IMO (turning the sub down as the strength setting goes up).

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post #6501 of 6562 Old 02-05-2020, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
Auromatic adds too much bass, IMO. It needs bass correction as part of the mode, IMO (turning the sub down as the strength setting goes up).
Not sure if it’s a similar phenomenon, but when I was doing my home-made analog ambiance extraction (Hafler), I applied a 80 Hz cut-off filter lo leave the bass out of the up-mixing to avoid excessive low frequencies sent to the sub by my bass management (Outlaw ICBM).
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post #6502 of 6562 Old 02-06-2020, 04:37 AM
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Auromatic adds too much bass, IMO. It needs bass correction as part of the mode, IMO (turning the sub down as the strength setting goes up).
Well, perhaps is an intent to match what you use to hear in a live rock concert. (Not enough criteria yet for classical music).

When I go to rock concerts I always hear much more bass than at Home. It’s not only because the big volume, as I ‘m not talking about heavy metal that are used to play at absurdly very high volumes, but some groups whose sound engineering is supposed to be right, like Steven Wilson or Steve Hackett.

Even with low and clear melodies I listen more bass in a live concert than at home, even after already increased the Subwoofer gain after the Audyssey calibration, and using the Audyssey Dynamic EQ. And I'm not a fan of "boom boom" music.

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post #6503 of 6562 Old 02-06-2020, 06:06 AM
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I suppose the problem is I already add more bass in general for music so I have to dial it back. The extra sub control on the 7012 us useful to hold a second setting, though (little bit faster to switch). I think newer models got rid of it, though.

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post #6504 of 6562 Old 02-09-2020, 06:48 PM
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Hoping you guys can help -

I'm considering a few DIY speaker option for a 9.1 setup, main focus being Auro-matic upmixing for 2-channel albums at modest (<90db) volumes in a 6x7m room.

I'm considering surround and hight speakers made from Scan-Speak 10F/8424 which is a 3" full range driver. Mains will use this driver but with 8" bass driver and 15" subs. A 2-way with the 3" and 8" won't fit into wall cavity and would be cost prohibitive, hence thinking of just the 3" single driver. I would like though to use the same 3" diver on all speakers for the sake of tonal consistency.

The 3" driver would need to be high-passed about 150-200hz to limit excursion. My question is, would this be ok for Auto, do the high and surrounds speakers need to be contributing mid-bass, or is it mainly ambient information. I know the specs call for identical full-range speakers all round, but nobody hangs 100L floor standers from their ceilings so I tend to feel a bit dismissive about their advice.

Thanks for any help,

B
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post #6505 of 6562 Old 02-11-2020, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bvan View Post
Hoping you guys can help -

I'm considering a few DIY speaker option for a 9.1 setup, main focus being Auro-matic upmixing for 2-channel albums at modest (<90db) volumes in a 6x7m room.

I'm considering surround and hight speakers made from Scan-Speak 10F/8424 which is a 3" full range driver. Mains will use this driver but with 8" bass driver and 15" subs. A 2-way with the 3" and 8" won't fit into wall cavity and would be cost prohibitive, hence thinking of just the 3" single driver. I would like though to use the same 3" diver on all speakers for the sake of tonal consistency.

The 3" driver would need to be high-passed about 150-200hz to limit excursion. My question is, would this be ok for Auto, do the high and surrounds speakers need to be contributing mid-bass, or is it mainly ambient information. I know the specs call for identical full-range speakers all round, but nobody hangs 100L floor standers from their ceilings so I tend to feel a bit dismissive about their advice.

Thanks for any help,

B
I think it is better to have full range for all speakers including surrounds and heights, specially for playing music (as you mention Auromatic for Stereo). Bass management (crossover to the SUB) then applies the same way than for the mains.

I cannot tell you about how much you will lose when not having up to 200Hz in those speakers, but you will lose something considering the “standard” bass management crossover at 80 Hz. If you crossover that speakers to 200Hz, at that frequencies the sound is already directional and will come everything from the sub, so you will lose "something" from those speakers.

In the pictures attached I show you how I managed to hang my Full range speakers from the ceiling using some jails with some ball stand to get the needed separation from the ceiling to accommodate the rock wool plates for the false ceiling. And also to be able to aim the speakers to the required angles.
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post #6506 of 6562 Old 02-28-2020, 09:56 AM
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do you have any photos from your place?
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post #6507 of 6562 Old 02-29-2020, 09:02 AM
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Also posted on AVR X8500 thread.


Finally got Auro 3d setup with Top Centre Kef 1001 and a switch to output a mono signal to my TMR TML speakers for VOG.
Testing levels in amp and it works brilliantly with TM speakers giving the impression of one TMC apeaker as expected. I just have to flick a switch between Atmos and Auro3d for the TMR TML. (may do with a relay later)



Lichtmont 3 is only Auro 9.1 so doesn't apper to use CH and TC speakers although enabling Auro3d in amp does use them.


Just confuesed that I have to enable Auro 3D to use CH and TH when the disc doesn't support them?



Confused?

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post #6508 of 6562 Old 02-29-2020, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Also posted on AVR X8500 thread.


Finally got Auro 3d setup with Top Centre Kef 1001 and a switch to output a mono signal to my TMR TML speakers for VOG.
Testing levels in amp and it works brilliantly with TM speakers giving the impression of one TMC apeaker as expected. I just have to flick a switch between Atmos and Auro3d for the TMR TML. (may do with a relay later)



Lichtmont 3 is only Auro 9.1 so doesn't apper to use CH and TC speakers although enabling Auro3d in amp does use them.


Just confuesed that I have to enable Auro 3D to use CH and TH when the disc doesn't support them?



Confused?


Please define all acronyms. Thanks!


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post #6509 of 6562 Old 02-29-2020, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviaction View Post
Also posted on AVR X8500 thread.


Finally got Auro 3d setup with Top Centre Kef 1001 and a switch to output a mono signal to my TMR TML speakers for VOG.
Testing levels in amp and it works brilliantly with TM speakers giving the impression of one TMC apeaker as expected. I just have to flick a switch between Atmos and Auro3d for the TMR TML. (may do with a relay later)



Lichtmont 3 is only Auro 9.1 so doesn't apper to use CH and TC speakers although enabling Auro3d in amp does use them.


Just confuesed that I have to enable Auro 3D to use CH and TH when the disc doesn't support them?
Auro-3D will generally still use its upmixer for supported channels not in the mix. So it's essentially upmixing Lichtmond 3 to use the VOG speaker with the "Auromatic" upmixer.

I'm sure Red Tails mixed in Auro-3D will sound great with the added speaker.

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post #6510 of 6562 Old 02-29-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Please define all acronyms.

Info here for speaker abbreviations:


http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4100W/E...SYawzxoxsr.php


VOG:


Level 3 (Optional): Top Layer – If you go for the full 10.1 channel option, then you would add one ceiling mounted speaker that is placed directly above the listening position. This is referred to as the VOG (Voice of God) channel.

https://www.lifewire.com/auro-3d-audio-4100014



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