The Official Dolby Surround Upmixing Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 1044 Old 04-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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just watched Despecialized Star Wars last night; it sounded amazing with DSU! the imagery was fantastic!
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post #992 of 1044 Old 05-16-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by geodon005 View Post
I also have only a 5.1 setup, but I have gotten quite used to Dolby Surround for 2-channel music, but ONLY after enabling the Center Spread option. As you say, it is different than how DPLIIx sounded, but I do like it. I much prefer it to DTS Neural-X or Auro 2-D Surround for music.
I employ 5.1 upmixing for 2 channel music all the time. I wish I could say, after a few months listening (with C spread on), that I like DSU as much or more than DPLII. But I don't. And it makes me sad that new AVRs, with all their attractive modern features, have basically abandoned DPLII for DSU.

Logic 7, another upmixer Roger Dressler likes, seems also to be all but extinct in AVRs. If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know!

Ditto a list of modern AVRs with AuroMax.
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post #993 of 1044 Old 05-16-2019, 02:37 PM
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I rewatched Star Wars blu rays 1-3; and the 6ch DTS HD sound track I have heard in NeuralX and DSU. I mixed it with DSU for my recent viewing, dolby atmos upmix; the movies sounded superb!

It is an interesting case where DSU sounded better to me than NeuralX did for these films. (DSU and NeuralX each have their pros & cons)



center channel voices were fine; but the atmospherics made the films a treat to listen!
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post #994 of 1044 Old 05-31-2019, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
I employ 5.1 upmixing for 2 channel music all the time. I wish I could say, after a few months listening (with C spread on), that I like DSU as much or more than DPLII. But I don't.


You noticed there’s a bass boost that comes with the upmixing (DSU and Auro 3D)? I’m not sure I like that. I like controlling the level of boost from the SW trim.


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post #995 of 1044 Old 05-31-2019, 08:38 AM
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I've never noticed (DSU only). If you're using bass management, all low bass is redirected to the subwoofer, but that's true whether you upmix or not. And it's possible that bass content (upper bass) coming from 5 speakers instead of two alters the bass levels due to room acoustics. I don't think changing bass level is part of DSU itself.... but without studying the white paper I can't say for sure.
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post #996 of 1044 Old 07-03-2019, 01:03 PM
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I was just messing around with the chesky imaging tracks on youtube and noticed in a 3.1 channel setup that DSU will not image beyond the speakers when the drum goes to the extreme left and right positions. Does DSU even currently support a 3.1 channel setup? The lowest channel count I can find Dolby commenting on anywhere is 5.1.
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post #997 of 1044 Old 07-03-2019, 02:35 PM
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I'm playing Judgment on the PS4 via 7ch LPCM; with DSU applied, it sounds fantastic!!
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post #998 of 1044 Old 07-10-2019, 06:55 AM
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Can someone explain to me how much content does DSU send to ceiling speakers when listening to 2.0 music?

I have high-quality speakers for 5 at the floor level and I like to listen to upmixed music. In-ceiling speakers of the same line are too expensive to buy 4 of them, so I am faced with the decision to go just with 2 or buy 4 less expensive speakers. I am inclined to go with 4 less expensive, but would not like to find too much music coming from the top and lowering the quality achieved by 5 floor level speakers.
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post #999 of 1044 Old 07-10-2019, 10:56 AM
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I'd go w/4 less expensive speakers.

If there's too much overhead sound w/music, don't use DSU.

You definitely want the overheads for movies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
Can someone explain to me how much content does DSU send to ceiling speakers when listening to 2.0 music?

I have high-quality speakers for 5 at the floor level and I like to listen to upmixed music. In-ceiling speakers of the same line are too expensive to buy 4 of them, so I am faced with the decision to go just with 2 or buy 4 less expensive speakers. I am inclined to go with 4 less expensive, but would not like to find too much music coming from the top and lowering the quality achieved by 5 floor level speakers.

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post #1000 of 1044 Old 07-10-2019, 01:12 PM
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Can someone explain to me how much content does DSU send to ceiling speakers when listening to 2.0 music?

It depends . . . on the source material
and your REQ.
which do you use?

as the LCR of a 5.2.4 small system,

for 2.0 source, my experimenting for a listening distance of 7'+/-,
the HTM6's alone with subs, huge sound field, easy to listen to, clear, detailed, dynamic,
uses more extreme toe-in

even eq'd with XT32, the surrounds and heights can get "un-needed" as they are adding more sound
but clarity seems to suffer

alternatively, in Neo:X, I select surrounds and heights to "none" and have the lcr.
the subs in the room are THTLP's, and on a nx3000d cruise along and can add plenty of TR- source dependent
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post #1001 of 1044 Old 07-10-2019, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
Can someone explain to me how much content does DSU send to ceiling speakers when listening to 2.0 music?

I have high-quality speakers for 5 at the floor level and I like to listen to upmixed music. In-ceiling speakers of the same line are too expensive to buy 4 of them, so I am faced with the decision to go just with 2 or buy 4 less expensive speakers. I am inclined to go with 4 less expensive, but would not like to find too much music coming from the top and lowering the quality achieved by 5 floor level speakers.
As already mentioned, it depends on the content. I think you'd be fine with 4 less expensive speakers, so long as they are not bottom of the barrel. Get something if you can that has the same kind of/similar tweeter at least. (Even that isn't and absolute though, but it is what I'd aim for.....). You'll likely not get a ton coming through, and it would never dominate, but you do want what is coming out of them to be a decent blend/quality.

Obviously implies Atmos/immersive sound if you are installing in-ceilings - and I will argue that 4 speakers will give you a better Atmos performance out of lesser speakers than 2 better *better* speakers - so my vote is for 4 less expensive ones.

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post #1002 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milanjv View Post
Can someone explain to me how much content does DSU send to ceiling speakers when listening to 2.0 music?

I have high-quality speakers for 5 at the floor level and I like to listen to upmixed music. In-ceiling speakers of the same line are too expensive to buy 4 of them, so I am faced with the decision to go just with 2 or buy 4 less expensive speakers. I am inclined to go with 4 less expensive, but would not like to find too much music coming from the top and lowering the quality achieved by 5 floor level speakers.
Also keep in mind that you can always adjust the volume level of the height speakers (often by source) to suit your personal preference.
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post #1003 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 07:38 AM
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Also keep in mind that you can always adjust the volume level of the height speakers (often by source) to suit your personal preference.
If sounds are being sorted to the height speakers and you turn the volume down, then you just won't hear them. That's not a very good solution.
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post #1004 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 07:52 AM
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If sounds are being sorted to the height speakers and you turn the volume down, then you just won't hear them. That's not a very good solution.
Luckily, you're not the OP.
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post #1005 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 10:34 AM
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If sounds are being sorted to the height speakers and you turn the volume down, then you just won't hear them.

Sounds like you're confusing volume control with on/off switching.

Noah
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post #1006 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 10:52 AM
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Sounds like you're confusing volume control with on/off switching.
I'm not confused. If you are turning down certain speakers because they are low quality, then you are just reducing the volume of certain sounds in the mix. It won't sound right. It's not like quad where you can turn down the back speakers without losing anything. It isn't the same sounds being sent to height vs. other speakers. I can't understand why on earth one would want to use DSU and then turn down height speakers because they don't like the sound quality. Would be much better to use a 5.1 or 7.1 upmix or just stereo or quad.
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post #1007 of 1044 Old 07-12-2019, 02:34 PM
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Thank you all for replies.
My final decision, being faced with the choose of 2 better vs 4 lesser speakers, was to place order for 4 better speakers

Will post my thoughts on how well DSU is using top speakers for music after my system is set up.
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post #1008 of 1044 Old 07-23-2019, 05:35 AM
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Guys if have Magnolia (1999) in library- the frog scene is unreal in DSU -one of top height effects have heard on system - intense and long scene - the whole movie is basically front focus so when scene hits its crazy -
be nice if native atmos would sound half as good as that scene
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post #1009 of 1044 Old 07-29-2019, 12:19 PM
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This has probably been brought up before in the thread, but it's quite a lot to read.

How does Dolby Surround (as in DSU) handle Dolby Surround (as in Dolby MP or PLII matrix encoded 2.0)? Does it still decode similarly with respect to the encoded phase and gain as it did with Pro Logic II, or does it do anything strange (aside from steering some sound into the overheads)?

I'm concerned with this as I have some PlayStation and PlayStation2 games that used MP and PLII matrixed surround which I still play from time to time, plus there is the odd movie in 2.0. I'm terrified about what DSU does to it, especially now that everyone has dropped Pro Logic II on their Dolby Atmos-equipped receivers.

N.B: To Roger Dressler - thanks for the excellent white papers you wrote on Pro Logic and Pro Logic II! You made a great contribution to my interest in home theater and my professional devotion to audio and video.
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post #1010 of 1044 Old 07-29-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Zacabeb View Post
This has probably been brought up before in the thread, but it's quite a lot to read.

How does Dolby Surround (as in DSU) handle Dolby Surround (as in Dolby MP or PLII matrix encoded 2.0)? Does it still decode similarly with respect to the encoded phase and gain as it did with Pro Logic II, or does it do anything strange (aside from steering some sound into the overheads)?

I'm concerned with this as I have some PlayStation and PlayStation2 games that used MP and PLII matrixed surround which I still play from time to time, plus there is the odd movie in 2.0. I'm terrified about what DSU does to it, especially now that everyone has dropped Pro Logic II on their Dolby Atmos-equipped receivers.

It is a bit more stable with less inter-channel cross-talk and a bit more accurate in its steering logic with movies than ProLogic II. It is the Music mode that is perhaps less fine tunable than before.
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post #1011 of 1044 Old 07-29-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It is a bit more stable with less inter-channel cross-talk and a bit more accurate in its steering logic with movies than ProLogic II. It is the Music mode that is perhaps less fine tunable than before.

Thanks! My mind is a bit more at ease now.
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post #1012 of 1044 Old 08-13-2019, 07:45 AM
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I'm worried now about the removal of the Center Spread setting in Onkyo and Pioneer receivers.


Yesterday I recalled having a conversation a few weeks ago with a colleague from work who's an acoustic and audio engineer, after he'd upgraded to a new receiver (I believe it was a Denon given it had Auro-3D) in order to get immersive audio. He lamented the lack of the Center Width control from Dolby Pro Logic II, and how he was displeased with how sound spread across all the fronts in a way that boosted the loudness somewhat. I asked if he'd tried the Center Spread option, but he said he hadn't found a setting like that yet. I haven't spoken to him yet about whether he sorted it out.



What worries me about this is that if the Center Spread option is removed, will it mean it's just not there anymore, or that it is permanently enabled? It was always optional for manufacturers to implement, and I can't think of a good reason for Onkyo and Pioneer to remove it other than a Dolby mandate (I can't shake the feeling Dolby has been acting weird lately with the exclusion of third party upmixers, although I can imagine a few legit reasons for that). If center spread is disabled permanently, it will be good for TV and movie listening but not so much for music, and if it's enabled permanently, it will be good for music listening but not necessarily so for TV and movies.


Some background for my worries: Spreading dialog across the fronts has become a thing with some European broadcasters due to a strange recommendation from the Digital Production Parntership (DPP) in the UK. They recommend dialog be spread across the fronts (Mode 1), on-screen dialog be spread across the fronts with off-screen narration in center (Mode 2), and advice against mixing dialog to the center only (Mode 3). It's not tied with any recommendations for how much dialog be spread into the left and right fronts with respect to gain or loudness, although the dialog loudness is assumed to follow EBU R128 standard at -23 LUFS. Productions mixed according to Mode 1 or Mode 2 tend to sound awful if the timing and timbre isn't matched perfectly between the fronts, and my center is below the screen, so... I don't want the same thing to happen when upmixing 2.0 content.


If someone with an Onkyo or Pioneer who's been bereft the Center Spread option could chime in with what happens when applying DSU/Dsur to 2.0 material, that would be most welcome.


My new receiver is a Yamaha, so I'm currently in the clear, but who knows what their plans are since they held onto Dolby Pro Logic II for ages and then ditched them out of the blue (possibly at the insistence of Dolby).

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post #1013 of 1044 Old 08-13-2019, 09:59 AM
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Some background for my worries: Spreading dialog across the fronts has become a thing with some European broadcasters due to a strange recommendation from the Digital Production Parntership (DPP) in the UK. They recommend dialog be spread across the fronts (Mode 1), on-screen dialog be spread across the fronts with off-screen narration in center (Mode 2), and advice against mixing dialog to the center only (Mode 3).
What could possibly be the rationale behind that?

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post #1014 of 1044 Old 08-13-2019, 12:29 PM
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Yesterday I recalled having a conversation a few weeks ago with a colleague from work who's an acoustic and audio engineer, after he'd upgraded to a new receiver (I believe it was a Denon given it had Auro-3D) in order to get immersive audio. He lamented the lack of the Center Width control from Dolby Pro Logic II, and how he was displeased with how sound spread across all the fronts in a way that boosted the loudness somewhat. I asked if he'd tried the Center Spread option, but he said he hadn't found a setting like that yet.
I, too, lament the loss of PLIIx, partially for the Music/Movie modes which did more than enable a Center Width control, but moreover how it handles upmixing stereo music to produce a real sense of envelopment -- lateral expansion. The newer Dolby Surround upmixer (DSU) works fine for stereo movie/TV sound, as it has a superb center-channel extraction process second to none. But the way it formulates ambience from music for the surround channels is not consistent with nature, IMHO.

HST I am a little confused when you wrote: "he was displeased with how sound spread across all the fronts in a way that boosted the loudness somewhat." Is this in ref to Auro or DSU? Auro does not have any dialog extraction capability, so it cannot really do anything to elevate the dialog that does not also affect the rest of the mix. OTOH, DSU has a "Center Spread" option that toggles on/off a fixed degree of center spread, very much the same as PLIIx Music mode's default setting. It maintains overall dialog loudness, too.

Quote:
What worries me about this is that if the Center Spread option is removed, will it mean it's just not there anymore, or that it is permanently enabled?
If it is gone, I'd expect it to be off -- no spreading. Part of the benefit of Center Width was that vocals could still use the main L/R speakers (same as in pure stereo mode) which may offer quality advantages when lesser speakers are used in the center. It also helped maintain the sense of stereo width because PLIIx, being a 1-band logic steering process, had to make tradeoffs between steering the center vocals vs maintaining stereo width. That issue does not exist with DSU due to the well-executed multiband processing it uses. I have found that with well matched speakers, and sitting dead center, vocals with center spread on/off are virtually indistinguishable.

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It was always optional for manufacturers to implement, and I can't think of a good reason for Onkyo and Pioneer to remove it other than a Dolby mandate
I sorta doubt that Dolby would mandate removing a feature they themselves baked into their DSU code. However, as it is usually lumped into the global DSU mode, it became a nuisance for end users who used to assign PLIIx Movie for certain sources and PLIIx Music for other sources, letting the mode follow the source being used. For DSU, there is no easy way to do that -- there is only "the DSU mode" for any/all sources, and the user has to manually change the center spread setting each time. After enough complaints, AVR makers may have opted out of supporting center spread rather than solving the problem properly. I have no idea if this is true for any given AVR maker, but it at least seems plausible.
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post #1015 of 1044 Old 08-13-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I, too, lament the loss of PLIIx, partially for the Music/Movie modes which did more than enable a Center Width control, but moreover how it handles upmixing stereo music to produce a real sense of envelopment -- lateral expansion. The newer Dolby Surround upmixer (DSU) works fine for stereo movie/TV sound, as it has a superb center-channel extraction process second to none. But the way it formulates ambience from music for the surround channels is not consistent with nature, IMHO.

HST I am a little confused when you wrote: "he was displeased with how sound spread across all the fronts in a way that boosted the loudness somewhat." Is this in ref to Auro or DSU? Auro does not have any dialog extraction capability, so it cannot really do anything to elevate the dialog that does not also affect the rest of the mix. OTOH, DSU has a "Center Spread" option that toggles on/off a fixed degree of center spread, very much the same as PLIIx Music mode's default setting. It maintains overall dialog loudness, too.

I think it was mostly a general assumption he made rather than an observation, given that he had just set up his new AVR and not experimented too much with it yet. Given that he's an acoustic engineer his home theater is very carefully set up and calibrated in a well dampened room, so it was probably not something that he experienced. He also didn't know at the time there was a center spread setting (Denon proabably hid it well).



Having had DSU for a pair of weeks now, I too love it for its multi-band steering, which is something I've been waiting for since I got a my first home theater audio system 30 almost years ago. But there's too much magic surround, which I felt PLII managed very carefully.



I wish they added some more control over DSU (front/back bias, surround decorrelation on/off) to make it behave more like PLII. I guess the problem is that a lot of people don't want to tinker with settings, plus it takes some understanding of the underlying tech to get why those settings are there. Then again, sound bars have made multi-speaker home theaters go back to being more of a geek thing again, so here's hoping.
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post #1016 of 1044 Old 08-18-2019, 10:12 AM
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[QUOTE=Roger Dressler;58418156]I, too, lament the loss of PLIIx, partially for the Music/Movie modes which did more than enable a Center Width control, but moreover how it handles upmixing stereo music to produce a real sense of envelopment -- lateral expansion. The newer Dolby Surround upmixer (DSU) works fine for stereo movie/TV sound, as it has a superb center-channel extraction process second to none. But the way it formulates ambience from music for the surround channels is not consistent with nature, IMHO.

All this talk about Dolby PLIIx has made me miss it in a "big way". I miss all the parameters and ways we had to "tinker" with the sound that we had with the Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music mode. I miss that ability with the current DSU.

BTW...I was wanting to know if there were different versions of Dolby Pro Logic IIx released during the years? I have an old Yamaha AVR 4600 (2005)that has Dolby Pro Logic IIx on it. In addition, I currently have a Marantz SR 6013 that has 7.1 multichannel inputs into the AVR. I am thinking about bringing my old Yamaha AVR 4600 "back from the dead" and use it as a preamp in conjunction with my new Marantz SR 6013. That way, I could still use Dolby Pro Logic IIx with my music sources. Finally, I do enjoy the DSU for movies and television shows. I just wished that these modern AVRs still included Dolby Pro Logic IIx.
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post #1017 of 1044 Old 08-19-2019, 02:18 AM
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All this talk about Dolby PLIIx has made me miss it in a "big way". I miss all the parameters and ways we had to "tinker" with the sound that we had with the Dolby Pro Logic IIx Music mode. I miss that ability with the current DSU.

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BTW...I was wanting to know if there were different versions of Dolby Pro Logic IIx released during the years?
There was only one version of Pro Logic II, and only one version of Pro Logic IIx, which came out two years later, and includes the original PLII mode when operating in 5.1 output mode.

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I have an old Yamaha AVR 4600 (2005) that has Dolby Pro Logic IIx on it. In addition, I currently have a Marantz SR 6013 that has 7.1 multichannel inputs into the AVR. I am thinking about bringing my old Yamaha AVR 4600 "back from the dead" and use it as a preamp in conjunction with my new Marantz SR 6013. That way, I could still use Dolby Pro Logic IIx with my music sources.
That's exactly what I am doing. This diagram comes from my post which mainly discusses using an external EQ to handle multiple subs.



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Finally, I do enjoy the DSU for movies and television shows. I just wished that these modern AVRs still included Dolby Pro Logic IIx.
Preaching to the choir.
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post #1018 of 1044 Old 08-22-2019, 03:57 PM
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In the last few days, I've tried to wrap my head around some of the details in the AES white paper on DSU, specifically how the delayed versions of the diffuse signals are used. At first I thought there was decorrelation done to the left and right surrounds, but it didn't make sense given what's in the white paper.

The following might be correct, or a major brain glitch. Bear with me.

Something that confused me at first was a bit of a paradox regarding the diffuse sound, before it struck me. The diffuse sound is of course what has no given direction in the soundfield, and that would make it technically monaural, existing in the interior of the MP matrix. So why wouold there be separate left and right components extracted? Well, given the phase relationships of the MP matrix, a sound placed at the center of the soundfield interior must by definition be 90 deg out-of-phase between Lt and Rt. So it follows that the diffuse component of the sound upon upmixing has the same relationship.

This is also what happens if you deliberately place a sound centered in the interior of the soundfield by mixing it into both center and surround in MP or PLII encoded stereo (Also if you mix a sound into both Ls and Rs in Surround EX, where a +/-45 deg phase shift of Ls and Rs going into Lst/Rst was a necessity to avoid them collapsing into Bs upon decoding.)

So there's already decorrelation on the left-to-right axis in the decoded diffuse sound, courtesy of this phase relationship – even when dealing with non-encoded material. It's whatever meets this criterion that ends up being seen as completely diffuse, and individual sounds may contain both a steered and a diffuse component if they move through the soundfield interior.

If you sum the diffuse left and right sound into hard mono, since they're 90 degrees out-of-phase, the resultant phase will be conveniently halfway between the two. This makes a mono summed version of the diffuse sound make sense for blending with the left and right diffuse sound for outputs that are logically close to the soundfield interior, such as the overheads. But where would the delay be useful? Could it be strictly for front-to-back decorrelation as discussed before, or could it be to manage left-to-right correlation? A non-delayed mono sum of the diffuse sound alone would increase correlation between the outputs.

This fine wine is really good - it tastes like it was bottled yesterday!

Last edited by Zacabeb; 08-23-2019 at 08:04 AM. Reason: More UTF horrors removed, clarified to make more sense
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post #1019 of 1044 Old 08-23-2019, 09:13 AM
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In the last few days, I've tried to wrap my head around some of the details in the AES white paper on DSU, specifically how the delayed versions of the diffuse signals are used.

The diffuse sound is of course what has no given direction in the soundfield, and that would make it technically monaural, existing in the interior of the MP matrix. So why would there be separate left and right components extracted? Well, given the phase relationships of the MP matrix, a sound placed at the center of the soundfield interior must by definition be 90 deg out-of-phase between Lt and Rt. So it follows that the diffuse component of the sound upon upmixing has the same relationship.
Let’s ignore the MP matrix. The source audio has not been touched by any such encoding matrix.

The DSU upmixer extracts a pair of diffuse signals, one from the L-ch source and another from the R-ch source. It then creates three more diffuse signals based on various combinations of each with frequency-dependent time delays applied, for a total of 5 uncorrelated, diffuse signals.
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Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
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post #1020 of 1044 Old 08-23-2019, 10:09 AM
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Let’s ignore the MP matrix. The source audio has not been touched by any such encoding matrix.

The DSU upmixer extracts a pair of diffuse signals, one from the L-ch source and another from the R-ch source. It then creates three more diffuse signals based on various combinations of each with frequency-dependent time delays applied, for a total of 5 uncorrelated, diffuse signals.
Thanks! Now that I checked the white paper again, I realize that the delays are applied independently to the left and right diffuse signals before adding them together, not to the resulting sum. D'oh!

It does partly explain why DSU has the spread out, somewhat artificial ambience compared to PLII, in spite of the high channel separation.

The reason I broght up the MP matrix was that it just happened to make me think about the properties a perfectly nondirectional signal would have. My conceptual understanding of DSU is that sounds fully toward the perimeter of the soundfield gets steered completely, and gradually less so either as their phase approaches +/-90 deg in the left and right inputs (in each discrete frequency band, of course), or has nicely random spread between them. But then again, sounds interact making it an imperfect concept to think of strictly that way. Are there more properties that I'm missing?

I know that even DSU's statistical analysis has limitations to how well it can analyze the input, and I have managed to make it misbehave – a PLII encoded step through of the channels with 4 seconds of pink noise in each made DSU miss the attack of each, causing it to momentarily leak into the other channels. It wasn't audible at the listening position, but clearly noticable when putting my ear to the speakers.

This fine wine is really good - it tastes like it was bottled yesterday!

Last edited by Zacabeb; 08-23-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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