The Official Dolby Surround Upmixing Thread - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1090 Old 01-28-2020, 01:57 PM
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I just played the Terminator Resistance (game) in DSU, 7.1 lpcm. Wow, the DolbyAtmosUpmix, aka DolbyProLogic3 sounded amazing with this game!!


the atmospheric sounds; especially the airplanes overhead, guns shooting everywhere, shooting terminators; it was epic!! Worth a play if you love T1&T2.
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post #1052 of 1090 Old 02-01-2020, 02:03 PM
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Please can anyone confirm if DSU is supposed to route dialogues to the center channel only (plus the front channels depending on the Center Spread parameter if available), and not across all channels including rear speakers as I am experiencing with my Marantz SR6014??
I can't make my head around it...I've never had that before with Dolby PL II or any other upmixers.
Thanks
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post #1053 of 1090 Old 02-01-2020, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giovillo View Post
Please can anyone confirm if DSU is supposed to route dialogues to the center channel only (plus the front channels depending on the Center Spread parameter if available), and not across all channels including rear speakers as I am experiencing with my Marantz SR6014??
I can't make my head around it...I've never had that before with Dolby PL II or any other upmixers.
Thanks

I've only had dialog stay in the center channel unless it was meant to come out of a different speaker using Dolby Surround or DTS Neural: X.
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post #1054 of 1090 Old 02-01-2020, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giovillo View Post
Please can anyone confirm if DSU is supposed to route dialogues to the center channel only (plus the front channels depending on the Center Spread parameter if available), and not across all channels including rear speakers as I am experiencing with my Marantz SR6014??
I can't make my head around it...I've never had that before with Dolby PL II or any other upmixers.
Thanks
DSU is excellent at only expanding sounds to where it would make sense for them to go. The Center Spread option shouldn't matter in the case of multichannel soundtracks as it is optimized to work specifically with incoming 2 channel stereo soundtracks and expand those to the Front right and Left speakers if so selected. If indeed you are getting dialog using DSU on multiple titles throughout other surround speaker locations, you made want to look into doing a reboot (pull the plug for 30 seconds)or performing a soft reset of your receiver in case something just got wonky with your processor.
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post #1055 of 1090 Old 02-01-2020, 04:44 PM
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Thank you both for your feedback and advice on this.

I have been in touch with the local reseller who were able to reproduce and confirm the same weird behaviour also on an earlier model (SR8012).
I then took a step further and asked them to raise this up to Marantz, who declined to acknowledge the issue and sort of invited me to trust the DSU algorithm.
The response came from the local branch though, so I guess this enquiry never reached support and engineering.

At this point I’d be curious to hear if other Marantz owners are having the same?
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post #1056 of 1090 Old 02-01-2020, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giovillo View Post
Please can anyone confirm if DSU is supposed to route dialogues to the center channel only (plus the front channels depending on the Center Spread parameter if available), and not across all channels including rear speakers as I am experiencing with my Marantz SR6014??
I can't make my head around it...I've never had that before with Dolby PL II or any other upmixers.
What is the source audio? It has to be good quality stereo to judge DSU L/C/R effect.

Do you have other sources and other contents to use for testing?

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post #1057 of 1090 Old 02-02-2020, 11:10 AM
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Anybody know of it's possible to upmix a DTS HD MA track to Dolby Atmos? Or would I only be able to use Neuralx to upmix it?

I remember seeing that Dolby was to restrict DSU on non native tracks, but then they recinded that. So this means that you should be able to upmix DTS to Atmos correct?

Or would it just be better to keep it in the DTS format and hse NeuralX?

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post #1058 of 1090 Old 02-02-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MisterCassera View Post
Anybody know of it's possible to upmix a DTS HD MA track to Dolby Atmos? Or would I only be able to use Neuralx to upmix it?

I remember seeing that Dolby was to restrict DSU on non native tracks, but then they recinded that. So this means that you should be able to upmix DTS to Atmos correct?

Or would it just be better to keep it in the DTS format and hse NeuralX?

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I can confirm you can upmix dts to dolby atmos on 4500, 6500, and 8500 denons. Cant say thatll be the case on newer 4600 and 6600s.

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post #1059 of 1090 Old 02-02-2020, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
I can confirm you can upmix dts to dolby atmos on 4500, 6500, and 8500 denons. Cant say thatll be the case on newer 4600 and 6600s.
I figured....however, on my Pioneer VSX LX 503...it states that DTS HD MA can only be upmixed to NeuralX ...see attached. I have to try it myself to make sure , but the chart says otherwise

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post #1060 of 1090 Old 02-03-2020, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCassera View Post
Anybody know of it's possible to upmix a DTS HD MA track to Dolby Atmos? Or would I only be able to use Neuralx to upmix it?

I remember seeing that Dolby was to restrict DSU on non native tracks, but then they recinded that. So this means that you should be able to upmix DTS to Atmos correct?
Just for clarity, the term "Atmos" only applies to soundtracks mixed and authored in the Dolby Atmos format. When you upmix a soundtrack with a lower number of channels (mono to 7.1), that does not make them Atmos, though they will use the same speaker layout.

Yes, the Dolby Surround Upmixer will upmix tracks encoded with DTS-HD Master Audio on current generation receivers. As you note, Dolby rescinded its ban against cross-pollinating upmixers. You can use DSU on DTS soundtracks (except native DTS:X, which can't be upmixed), and you can use DTS Neural:X on Dolby soundtracks (except native Atmos).

The upmixer block may still affect older receivers from a couple years ago, however.

Quote:
Or would it just be better to keep it in the DTS format and hse NeuralX?
The choice of upmixer is largely personal preference. Neural:X is more aggressive with pulling sound effects to the height channels, which can be very appealing on some soundtracks, but can also sound overdone on others when sounds meant for the ground layer get moved up high. DSU tends mainly to pull ambient sounds to the height layer and fewer discrete sound effects. The result is often subtler and arguably more natural, but less attention-grabbing.

You should try both and see which you like better.

Josh Z
Television and Home Theater Writer/Editor, Primetimer.com

My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers, whomever they may be.

Last edited by Josh Z; 02-03-2020 at 08:19 AM.
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post #1061 of 1090 Old 02-06-2020, 01:41 PM
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i'm on denon; and enjoy upmixing DSU or neural X with whatever source i have. both upmixers do fantastic things to your sound!
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post #1062 of 1090 Old 02-08-2020, 03:24 AM
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Dolby atmos height virtualizer and DTS Vvirtual X

Hi everyone. I m new here. I recently bought an onkyo tx sr 494 receiver. I used it with a 7.1 speaker set up. I have two questions to make. If anyone have the same receiver or knows for sure please answer. 1) when i engage DTS VIRTUAL X the receiver automatically turns to 5.1 output. I kost the two back surrounds. Is that normal with this format? Because DTS says that this format work also with an normal 7.1 set up. 2) I update the receiver with the latest firmware update and Dolby Atmos Height Virtualizer doesnt appear anywhere as a format choice in the menu or in the screen. What is going on?
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post #1063 of 1090 Old 02-25-2020, 12:06 PM
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I played MarvelUltimateAlliance 3 on switch; fun game. Unfortunately, it seems to output stereo 2ch sound in an empty 5ch surround container if you pick surround sound from the system menu.

Since it sounded only in front; i switched to output 2ch stereo; then my denon with DSU or NeuralX took the 2ch to 5ch sound upmixed; and then Atmos/DSU and NeuralX heights from that. It sounded great and better!



my previous system was 5.1 dd htib; so going to 5.1.4 atmos/DTSX and DSU/neuralX has been so fun! utilizing 7ch sound from movies and games; the upmixer really creates not only height sound; but also sound from empty parts of my room. (where the 2 extra side channels from 7ch setup would be) Pretty cool that 5.1.4 can give the illusion of a 7channel system + atmos/DTS:X. amazing stuff. Besides hearing sound overhead; i hear sounds from the side where there are no side speakers. (side rear L and R)
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post #1064 of 1090 Old 02-25-2020, 05:11 PM
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To center spread or not to center spread, that is the question...
Playing with DSU options for 2ch music I am really torn between the two. I feels like without center spread the singer is a little bug living im my center speaker. However, with center spread the singer it is a monster with a mouth that reaches from left to right speaker. Neither ist really great.
Are there any ways to mitigate that? What option are you using for music?
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post #1065 of 1090 Old 02-25-2020, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
To center spread or not to center spread, that is the question...
Playing with DSU options for 2ch music I am really torn between the two. I feels like without center spread the singer is a little bug living im my center speaker. However, with center spread the singer it is a monster with a mouth that reaches from left to right speaker. Neither ist really great.
Are there any ways to mitigate that? What option are you using for music?


I use center spread and definitely prefer it to off. I would experiment with speaker placement too. Maybe even just a little toe in could help too. Don’t know your setup though so...
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post #1066 of 1090 Old 02-26-2020, 08:02 AM
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Try adding a little delay of 2 or 3 ms to the center channel. That tamed the monster on my system when I activated center spread. Personally I never use it since I always sit in the money seat
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post #1067 of 1090 Old 02-26-2020, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
I use center spread and definitely prefer it to off. I would experiment with speaker placement too. Maybe even just a little toe in could help too. Don’t know your setup though so...


Yes, trying a bit more toe in may be a good idea. The speakers are toed in a bit already, but I adjusted that with 2ch originally. The DSU center spread may benefit from increasing that a notch.
I had been playing a bit more with it in the meantime. The effect really depends a lot on the individual recording, perhaps some of them actually don‘t agree with the DSU for some reason. With some recordings there is hardly any difference at all between center spread on or off.
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post #1068 of 1090 Old 02-26-2020, 11:00 AM
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Try adding a little delay of 2 or 3 ms to the center channel. That tamed the monster on my system when I activated center spread.
Yes, that effect was noticed when we developed PLIIx. PLIIx Music mode adds 2 ms delay in the C channel (hat tip to Meridian for that idea) which makes a significant difference in how three speakers combine acoustically and subjectively.

@anothermib , try adding delay one click at a time and give it a listen. The interaction effect diminishes after 3-5 ms IIRC.

A few ms of delay will not disrupt movie presentation, but if your processor enables multiple speaker configurations, that may make it possible to adapt automatically.
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post #1069 of 1090 Old 02-26-2020, 11:04 AM
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Try adding a little delay of 2 or 3 ms to the center channel. That tamed the monster on my system when I activated center spread. Personally I never use it since I always sit in the money seat


That is a good idea, emphasizing or deemphasizing the center a bit more may be a way to fine tine between the two extremes. Other upmixers let you adjust strengths of such effects. However, DSU unfortunately only knows on or off. 3ms independent of actual distance seems a lot of delay adjustment, though.

Why wouldn’t you benefit from center spread in the money seat? Is it because you don’t use DSU at all for 2ch stereo music?

I probably will leave it on for a while and see if it creates too many anomalies. A nice side effect of the spread is that it lifts the position of the singers voice as well. Not as high as it is when listening in stereo, but as the center is comparably low to fit underneath the screen every bit is appreciated.
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post #1070 of 1090 Old 02-26-2020, 11:45 AM
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I agree DSU would be much friendlier if it allowed some user control over some parameters (I really miss Logic7) but it doesn't. Listen to what Roger said. He has years of high level experience in this area. Like you I also have my center speaker under my screen and a small delay helped with CS set to on.


I suppose I don't benefit much from center spread because I'm lucky with my setup?
As you say 2ch recordings of music vary wildly in how they are mixed and how much "stereo" is in the sound. DSU even without center spread on sometimes sounds wrong to me.
I'm lucky in that my AVR allows for a choice between DSU and the older PL11x movie/music/ game so I use PL11x Music for those recordings.
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post #1071 of 1090 Old 02-28-2020, 10:45 AM
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Like you I also have my center speaker under my screen and a small delay helped with CS set to on.

Thanks for pointing that out. I started to experiment with it a little, and it appears that an additional 3ms delay indeed lets the center blend in much better. I only tested it with a few tracks so far and need to see over time if it works with the bulk of my material, but so far it actually sounds pretty pleasant.
@Roger Dressler did you come up with any explanation why the front stage benefits from that additional delay? Is it dependent on the dimensions of the setup? Im my case e.g. the 3ms roughly aligns with the distance between center and mains, but that may be a coincidence.

Unfortunately my AVR doesn’t support multiple speaker configurations (nor PLIIx for that matter). Delays and speaker designations remain fixed, when changing between modes. So i need to find an optimal compromise (if that isn’t an oxymoron). I hope the additional delay doesn’t impact Atmos too much. I didn’t notice any degradation e.g. of dialogue intelligibility, but I will try out some of the Atmos demos.

I am wondering if that kind of incremental delay may be beneficial for other, similar parts of the setup e.g. the side surrounds. Isn’t that a very comparable situation where they have to blend in between the front and rears?
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post #1072 of 1090 Old 02-28-2020, 11:02 AM
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I hope the additional delay doesn’t impact Atmos too much.
You won't notice it with discrete multi-channel material.

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post #1073 of 1090 Old 02-28-2020, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anothermib View Post
I started to experiment with it a little, and it appears that an additional 3ms delay indeed lets the center blend in much better. I only tested it with a few tracks so far and need to see over time if it works with the bulk of my material, but so far it actually sounds pretty pleasant.


Quote:
@Roger Dressler did you come up with any explanation why the front stage benefits from that additional delay? Is it dependent on the dimensions of the setup?
Not to any degree of certainty. My theory is that when the three L/C/R speakers are carrying identical audio (this is what happens in the center spread mode), and all three are time aligned, their sum is "fragile" in that if one moves slightly to the left of dead center, there are now 3 arrivals at 3 times. The sum is exhibiting a change in the constructive and destructive (combing) interference that we can easily detect. Considering it is a lot easier to acoustically match the L/R speakers than to match C to L/R, the chance of perfect summation is nil. By adding the C delay, the sensitivity to summation imperfections is moved to a lower range of frequencies, where the worst effects through the midrange are mitigated (delay is a form of decorrelation).

Quote:
In my case e.g. the 3ms roughly aligns with the distance between center and mains, but that may be a coincidence.
The added delay in center is intended to be relative to coincident arrival time from L/C/R speakers. So whatever delays may be present in the normal calibration are purely coinky-dinky (hat tip to @kbarnes701 ).

Quote:
Unfortunately my AVR doesn’t support multiple speaker configurations (nor PLIIx for that matter). Delays and speaker designations remain fixed, when changing between modes. So i need to find an optimal compromise (if that isn’t an oxymoron). I hope the additional delay doesn’t impact Atmos too much. I didn’t notice any degradation e.g. of dialogue intelligibility, but I will try out some of the Atmos demos.
Try to find something where a sound pans across L/C/R. Otherwise the difference will be mostly immaterial.

Quote:
I am wondering if that kind of incremental delay may be beneficial for other, similar parts of the setup e.g. the side surrounds. Isn’t that a very comparable situation where they have to blend in between the front and rears?
In "sparse" speaker setups we use at home, the chances of 3 or more speakers carrying identical content is pretty slim. Usually we will see pair-wise panning. Of course now with immersive systems we can have objects positioned between 3 or 4 speakers, but in those cases the sound is usually short lived, and may be moving, so the chances of detecting timbral anomalies is quite low.

In larger home theaters with multiple side surrounds, it is not uncommon to provide some form of decorrelation (added delays or all-pass filters) to stagger the arrivals to prevent comb filtering, but that only arises because additional pairs of surrounds are fed the same signals.

I would, however, add that in my 7.1.4 setup I did offset one pair of the ceiling speakers by a few ms because I found that when Dolby Surround upmixes applause type sounds (anything sustained like that or rain), the front pair and rear pair are fed the same signals, so the combing becomes audible, especially if one moves during that time.

This has not been a problem in Atmos content, however, as the 4 height and even the 4 surround channels are properly created to avoid that.
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post #1074 of 1090 Old 03-03-2020, 10:37 AM
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The Official Dolby Surround Upmixing Thread

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post




Not to any degree of certainty. My theory is that when the three L/C/R speakers are carrying identical audio (this is what happens in the center spread mode), and all three are time aligned, their sum is "fragile" in that if one moves slightly to the left of dead center, there are now 3 arrivals at 3 times. The sum is exhibiting a change in the constructive and destructive (combing) interference that we can easily detect. Considering it is a lot easier to acoustically match the L/R speakers than to match C to L/R, the chance of perfect summation is nil. By adding the C delay, the sensitivity to summation imperfections is moved to a lower range of frequencies, where the worst effects through the midrange are mitigated (delay is a form of decorrelation).

...

That is interesting. It may as well be an explanation for occasional discoloration issues I am having with dialogue. I need to watch for that. In the meantime I have been experimenting with it a bit more. I noticed that initially I actually reduced the delay, but if decorrelation is the main factor I guess even that shouldn’t matter. Results seem to vary a bit dependent on the individual recording and sometimes it is really hard to take out the expectation bias. However, so far I did not come across an example where it caused a major issue.
I would have imagined that such a substantial change in delay (-3ms to +3ms) has a very noticeable effect on how much the center pops out or steps in the background, similarly to what happens when you tune L/R delays. However, the effect is quite subtle and the Atmos bird keeps flying its circles.
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post #1075 of 1090 Old 03-11-2020, 07:19 PM
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After giving up on my long preferred upmixer Logic 7 (rip H/K receivers) & taking a liking to Pro Logic II music after dialing it to taste with the custom parameters, I started looking at newer receivers only to find out that it's been replaced by something that, from reading this thread, is mostly considered inferior for two channel music applications.

I've narrowed my AVR search down to a NAD T758 V3 that has Dirac, but no PLII, or I get the older version that has PLII but no Dirac... Great. This is irritating. A 'one upmixer with no adjustments covers everything' solution is supposed to be an improvement? If Dolby Surround (without width adjustment) is more oriented for movies & height speakers, why couldn't they just leave PLII music for its specific use & have it as an option? Just call it Dolby Surround Music or something. With all the zany gimmicks on AVR's these days I never thought they'd axe the old standards.

Is there any point in reaching out to Dolby or AVR manufacturers & requesting it back? Would they care? Are there enough people who still prefer it to make some noise about it? I haven't been paying attention to receivers for about ten years so this caught me off guard.
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post #1076 of 1090 Old 03-12-2020, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarvismcjigglestein View Post
why couldn't they just leave PLII music for its specific use & have it as an option? Just call it Dolby Surround Music or something. With all the zany gimmicks on AVR's these days I never thought they'd axe the old standards.

Is there any point in reaching out to Dolby or AVR manufacturers & requesting it back? Would they care? Are there enough people who still prefer it to make some noise about it? I haven't been paying attention to receivers for about ten years so this caught me off guard.
I feel your pain.
There are blocking issues to having both.
a) PLII is available for license from Dolby, but there's some added cost. Probably nominal but non-zero.
b) The bigger problem is the the chip makers were led to believe the new "immersive" upmixers checked the boxes for all occasions, so they dropped the PLIIx code from the DSPs. No easy way to put that genie back in the bottle.
c) Maybe the most challenging issue is convincing the product designers that it is worth the effort -- that they could see it reflected in the "feature/cost" score with a net benefit.

Not enough customers have protested PLII's removal to the product makers, so away she goes.

I am aware of two companies who can implement it relatively easily in their hardware (one uses Dirac, the other uses Trinnov ), and have broached it with both, suggesting it could be a differentiator for the musically oriented surround enthusiast, but so far they have bigger fish to fry.

Can't hurt to make your interest known, so why not give it a shot?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #1077 of 1090 Old 03-14-2020, 09:21 AM
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While not "new" you might give some consideration to a Yamaha CX-A5100 prepro and 1 MiniDSP DDRC-88a ( or 2 if you want Dirac for the overhead speakers). The Yamaha has
PLIIx and still does everything you need in a current prepro. I'm sure you could find these devices at nice discounts second hand.
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post #1078 of 1090 Old 03-14-2020, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I feel your pain.
There are blocking issues to having both.
a) PLII is available for license from Dolby, but there's some added cost. Probably nominal but non-zero.
b) The bigger problem is the the chip makers were led to believe the new "immersive" upmixers checked the boxes for all occasions, so they dropped the PLIIx code from the DSPs. No easy way to put that genie back in the bottle.
c) Maybe the most challenging issue is convincing the product designers that it is worth the effort -- that they could see it reflected in the "feature/cost" score with a net benefit.

Not enough customers have protested PLII's removal to the product makers, so away she goes.

I am aware of two companies who can implement it relatively easily in their hardware (one uses Dirac, the other uses Trinnov ), and have broached it with both, suggesting it could be a differentiator for the musically oriented surround enthusiast, but so far they have bigger fish to fry.

Can't hurt to make your interest known, so why not give it a shot?
Thank you for the insightful information. While I was reading around online I collected most of the quotes from others who are also feeling the loss of Pro Logic II. I think I'll try forwarding the wall of text to Dolby.

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Originally Posted by dryeye View Post
While not "new" you might give some consideration to a Yamaha CX-A5100 prepro and 1 MiniDSP DDRC-88a ( or 2 if you want Dirac for the overhead speakers). The Yamaha has
PLIIx and still does everything you need in a current prepro. I'm sure you could find these devices at nice discounts second hand.
I'm glad Yamaha has hung in there a bit longer with PLII but I think I'm decided on the NAD T758 V3 even without PLII. From what I've read about NAD's upmixer 'EARS', it's music oriented & often compared favorably to PLII. Of course if that doesn't work out, I guess I'll be stuck trying to incorporate my older PLII capable receiver into my newer setup somehow. For music from my PC I'm looking at devices that allow 6 channel analog out to my AVR & then trying some software upmixers with controllable parameters. I'm assuming this would work & give me some control, haven't tried it before.
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post #1079 of 1090 Old 03-14-2020, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvismcjigglestein View Post
I'm glad Yamaha has hung in there a bit longer with PLII but I think I'm decided on the NAD T758 V3 even without PLII. From what I've read about NAD's upmixer 'EARS', it's music oriented & often compared favorably to PLII. Of course if that doesn't work out, I guess I'll be stuck trying to incorporate my older PLII capable receiver into my newer setup somehow.
I described how I integrated two processor in this post. It's so seamless, just a click on the remote makes the switch, that I'm not in any hurry to change anything.

Quote:
For music from my PC I'm looking at devices that allow 6 channel analog out to my AVR & then trying some software upmixers with controllable parameters. I'm assuming this would work & give me some control, haven't tried it before.
I tried out the PLIIx upmixer in Minnetonka's SurCode package as a VST plugin to AudioMulch and it works, but it requires iLok and costs $600 .

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #1080 of 1090 Old 03-24-2020, 01:48 PM
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I watched Altered Carbon: Resleeved on netflix; dolby 5.1 to DSU; looked and sounded amazing! cool anime style and sound was great.
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