Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 395 Old 12-03-2014, 06:37 PM
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Finally got a chance to read thru this great thread. My hats off to all that was envolved with this GTG. Looked like it took alot of work as I could imagine.

Ive had a handfull of different recievers ive played around with and they have all sounded different in some way along with other differences. 0.0db volume level with refernce level readings on the meter on one processor while another would be the same loudness on -10db volume as an example. It was cool to see the results of your comparison and how the differences mimicked my experinece with different processors, be them scientific or not. Once again great job to all. There is no standard!!! lol
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post #362 of 395 Old 12-03-2014, 06:53 PM
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The difference in level matching is fairly expected. One of the points that THX certified receivers claim is that their "reference levels" are equal across different brands, as long as they are certified.


From THX website:
Powerful studio volume: Set your THX Certified receiver to “0” on the volume dial, and experience the exact Reference Level volume used in the movie theater.


I think the Pioneer and the Onkyo processor were both certified. Looks like they were the green and yellow lines.... Close across some parts of the frequency chart and not at others... I'm assuming due to room correction applied by the two different brands.

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post #363 of 395 Old 12-15-2014, 01:54 PM
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Interesting shootout, looks like a fun day. As a two time Pioneer owner however (one in my dedicated HT, and another in my living room), I can only conclude that the mic was broken, Mackies are no good, the listeners were drunk, and there was a prevailing headwind.
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post #364 of 395 Old 12-15-2014, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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lol...

Faulty mic is your only hope. We used a mic from another pioneer elite unit, carps specifically, since wulfcomp didn't have a mic with his unit. BTW - carp hates hates MCACC too on his Pioneer.

Coincidence?



Somebody suggested Pioneer auto eq should only be used with soft dome tweeters.............

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post #365 of 395 Old 12-15-2014, 02:25 PM
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I've been quite happy with it, with my waveguide based speakers
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post #366 of 395 Old 12-15-2014, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post
Interesting shootout, looks like a fun day. As a two time Pioneer owner however (one in my dedicated HT, and another in my living room), I can only conclude that the mic was broken, Mackies are no good, the listeners were drunk, and there was a prevailing headwind.
While all of these things might be true, I don't believe the results would have been any different for that particular Pio.
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post #367 of 395 Old 01-13-2015, 11:46 PM
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It was an older Pioneer model lacking their latest room correction software, but it's probably moot.

I'm still stunned that people would go through all of this work and not pick winners. It's almost like people were tripping over themselves to focus more on being nice than getting usable results. That many people with that much hardware and no real opinions.
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post #368 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 05:34 PM
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It was an older Pioneer model lacking their latest room correction software, but it's probably moot.

I'm still stunned that people would go through all of this work and not pick winners. It's almost like people were tripping over themselves to focus more on being nice than getting usable results. That many people with that much hardware and no real opinions.


I posted that I liked the Atmos AVR the best and Dirac setup 2nd. I did not like MCACC at all, which was no shock since I have an Elite and hate what MCACC does in my room.

It's been awhile since I've read this thread but I thought others posted their opinions too so not sure what you mean.
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post #369 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 05:46 PM
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Dang, based on @carp 's love of MCACC I just went out and bought a new Pioneer receiver.

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post #370 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 05:57 PM
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Dang, based on @carp 's love of MCACC I just went out and bought a new Pioneer receiver.
Haha - hey I will say this though, I love the .5 inch increments on speaker delay to dial in the stereo image!
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post #371 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 06:00 PM
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Haha - hey I will say this though, I love the .5 inch increments on speaker delay to dial in the stereo image!
Yeah that's a great feature! Lots better than the random HDMI dropouts from my old Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever, thus it will soon be hitting the curb and being replaced by a shiny new Marantz AV8802 (when it hits the market).

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post #372 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
Yeah that's a great feature! Lots better than the random HDMI dropouts from my old Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever, thus it will soon be hitting the curb and being replaced by a shiny new Marantz AV8802 (when it hits the market).
Oohh nice!! What does the Marantz have for auto EQ?

Does it have 7.1.4?
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post #373 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 06:18 PM
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It has Audyssey XT32 and will do 7.2.4. It also will be full HDCP 2.2 compliant for 4k when the chip is available. Will be the center of my system for next 8-10 yrs (my typical time period for replacing equipment).

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post #374 of 395 Old 01-14-2015, 07:49 PM
 
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I have read this entire thread; excellent read. ...Thanks to all the participants.
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post #375 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 07:48 AM
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Haha - hey I will say this though, I love the .5 inch increments on speaker delay to dial in the stereo image!
Leave the distance setting for the mains the same and move your main listening position over slightly.

I recently setup my boss's home theater and his Denon X2000. The lack of good setup capability with a receiver is so lacking compared to using an HTPC it was like going back to using a VCR. The bass management, speaker setup, upmixing and EQ is all so archaic. Maybe other receivers are better. The default distance setting was 1 ft, but looking further in the settings I found I was able to change it to .1 ft. I'm used to working with .01 ms which corresponds to about about .1 inches although I don't think that much granularity is necessary unless doing active crossovers.

Just for fun, here are the distance settings available for the receivers tested in this thread:

Anthem 510: 1 ft (12 inches)
Denon 4520CI: .1 ft (1.2 inches)
Onkyo TX-NR636: .1 ft (1.2 inches)
Pioneer SC-67: .5 inches
Sherwood R-972: .01 m (.03 ft or .36 inches) automatic and .5 ft manual (6 inches)
Yamaha CX-A5000: .2 ft (2.4 inches)
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post #376 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Onkyo PR-SC5508 adjusts in .2 foot distances, so increments of 2.4 inches.

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post #377 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 09:42 AM
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Leave the distance setting for the mains the same and move your main listening position over slightly.
I tweak that stuff a lot and measure to the quarter inch to make sure everything is symmetrical but there are still times when I feel like I need to tweak it a bit. The Pioneer is nice because it has a repeating ping so you can adjust and hear the ping go back and forth and stop when it's dead center.
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post #378 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 09:43 AM
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So for manually adjusting the distance the Pioneer is the best of that group.
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post #379 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Sheldon, here's something odd we encountered last night in our speaker comparison within the baffle wall that I'm curious as to your opinion on.

The Mackie C200 sound/imaging didn't seem to change much (at all?) when we changed the speaker distance by .2 feet --- from 13' to 12.8' for instance. The C300z's imaging seemed to change pretty significantly with the same distance change. It's something I noticed and asked Stitch if it was unique to my ears, and he said no - he definately heard it too. Why would one speaker be significantly more affected by distance setting --- given similar speaker design?

Both speakers were set to 13' by the Audyssey setup process from the MLP, and the image seems to pull to the left a bit to me - like a foot or two to the left or so. In playing with my setup I determined that 12.8' assigned to the left speaker seemed to remedy that problem with the C300z and the image sounded centered.
On the C200, however, the .2 foot distance change didn't do much of anything noticeable at all?!?!?

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Last edited by Archaea; 01-15-2015 at 04:17 PM. Reason: edited for clarity
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post #380 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Sheldon, here's something odd we encountered last night in our speaker comparison within the baffle wall that I'm curious as to your opinion on.

The Mackie C200 sound/imaging didn't seem to change much when you changed the speaker distance by .2 feet --- from 13' to 12.8' for instance. The C300z's imaging seemed to change pretty significantly with the same distance change. It's something I noticed and asked Stitch if it was unique to my ears, and he said no - he heard it too. Why would one speaker be significantly more affected by distance setting --- given similar speaker design? 13' assigned to the left speaker moved the center speaker image to the left a few feet (seemingly) on the C300z. Going to 12.8' made it sound more centered to my ears. The right speaker was set at 13'. On the C200 - the .2 foot distance change didn't do much of anything noticable?!?!?
Hmmm.... is there a difference in dispersion pattern with the two speakers? If the 300z's have a wider dispersion maybe you are getting more of a first reflection from one of the side walls compared to the C200? This could throw off the stereo image and cause the need to tweak the distance settings to get it dialed in?

You are positive both sets of speakers were sitting in the exact same spot/position in the baffle wall?

Yeah, that's weird. That would have drove me nuts trying to figure out what the heck is going on, I would want to know!!
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post #381 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 04:03 PM
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Maybe different amounts of toe in?
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post #382 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm.... is there a difference in dispersion pattern with the two speakers? If the 300z's have a wider dispersion maybe you are getting more of a first reflection from one of the side walls compared to the C200? This could throw off the stereo image and cause the need to tweak the distance settings to get it dialed in?

You are positive both sets of speakers were sitting in the exact same spot/position in the baffle wall?

Yeah, that's weird. That would have drove me nuts trying to figure out what the heck is going on, I would want to know!!
Mackie C300z = 90* horizontal x 45*vertical
Mackie C200 = 90* horizontal x 80* vertical

Placement is identical because the holes are cutouts in my wall. Toe-in was not identical - so perhaps?!?!

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Maybe different amounts of toe in?
True here --- The C300z is a larger speaker and so can't be toed in as much in my particular 11" wide cutouts. The C200 can be toed in slightly. The C300z cannot be toed in much at all.
I played with toe-in on my 228HT quite extensively and in my old room - out in the open - toe-in didn't seem to make much difference at all --- they were a disperson pattern of 60* x 40*

Since these speakers are in the baffle wall I haven't played as much with toe-in on them.
@stitch1 --- Toe-in responsible?

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post #383 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 04:17 PM
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If toe in was not the same, I'd say that is probably what was going on but I reserve the right to be wrong.
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post #384 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 06:12 PM
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Sure, the tow-in difference could be to blame. But the sound (to me) was like a phase issue. When it was noticeable it was really noticeable but it was mostly in the male vocal range. Some songs it was not too noticeable at all or just a little bit. It was almost like there was a small range where image was reversed out of the center and the left would become more noticeable but the right didn't sound correct either. Then we would change it back to 12.8 and it sounded centered again. Maybe with my added observations, someone smarter than I can help explain this odd phenomenon.

Quick note incase anyone wants to try this at home. The song where it was strikingly obvious was Get Lucky by Daft Punk. The vocals were WAY different switching from 12.8 to 13ft. 12.8 was spot on center. 13 was craziness.
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post #385 of 395 Old 01-15-2015, 06:29 PM
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My thoughts of the two speakers are they are far closer in quality than they are different. What stood out to me the most was the horn on the C300 was just not as good with female voices. At best the C300's sounded the same or "bigger" as in sound stage. At worse they sounded like a jumbled mess. Damn you @carp and your 215's nothing seems to impresses me anymore! For that I damn you to an eternity of listening to your 215's! Every time I get excited to listen to music I think of how much better it would sound on your gear.
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post #386 of 395 Old 01-16-2015, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
Sure, the tow-in difference could be to blame. But the sound (to me) was like a phase issue. When it was noticeable it was really noticeable but it was mostly in the male vocal range. Some songs it was not too noticeable at all or just a little bit. It was almost like there was a small range where image was reversed out of the center and the left would become more noticeable but the right didn't sound correct either. Then we would change it back to 12.8 and it sounded centered again. Maybe with my added observations, someone smarter than I can help explain this odd phenomenon.

Quick note incase anyone wants to try this at home. The song where it was strikingly obvious was Get Lucky by Daft Punk. The vocals were WAY different switching from 12.8 to 13ft. 12.8 was spot on center. 13 was craziness.
That is odd, 13 shouldn't be craziness it should just pull the center image a bit towards that side. Is Jonathan taking Mackes apart again and messing up the phase?
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post #387 of 395 Old 01-16-2015, 07:56 AM
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My thoughts of the two speakers are they are far closer in quality than they are different. What stood out to me the most was the horn on the C300 was just not as good with female voices. At best the C300's sounded the same or "bigger" as in sound stage. At worse they sounded like a jumbled mess. Damn you @carp and your 215's nothing seems to impresses me anymore! For that I damn you to an eternity of listening to your 215's! Every time I get excited to listen to music I think of how much better it would sound on your gear.

Sounds like a great after life!!

I'll sell you the 215's when I buy the 218's... or 221's.... or 224's..... Haha, kidding I vow to never carry these things up the stairs.
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post #388 of 395 Old 01-16-2015, 08:10 AM
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^^Yeah but if someone else carries them....

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post #389 of 395 Old 01-16-2015, 10:09 AM
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Yeah that's a great feature! Lots better than the random HDMI dropouts from my old Onkyo TX-SR805 reciever, thus it will soon be hitting the curb and replaced by a shiny new Marantz AV7702 I just ordered.
Updated....

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post #390 of 395 Old 01-16-2015, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
That is odd, 13 shouldn't be craziness it should just pull the center image a bit towards that side. Is Jonathan taking Mackes apart again and messing up the phase?
Ha

No... I didn't open up the C300z at all.

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