Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 395 Old 11-07-2014, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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For the subwoofers --- we ended up just putting a SINGLE PEQ boost at 20hz at 6dB and a Q of 2.0 on the iNuke DSP. That's it. Nothing else. Here is what they look like at the MLP

Bank 1 left side and Bank 2 right side. (2 subs in each bank)

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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #182 of 395 Old 11-07-2014, 09:22 PM
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I wasn't able to get babysitter for tomorrow. Planning to swing by ~7 pm if to hang out for a while if anyone still around. Good luck and I hope everything goes well.

You really just don't get much room gain, without the 6 db boost it looks to match fairly close to the near-field measurement. 0 for 2, maybe next house.
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post #183 of 395 Old 11-07-2014, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #184 of 395 Old 11-07-2014, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Just finished the Denon. Only took about 45 minutes for that one in total.


4 down -
4 to go...


who's on third shift tonight? Luke get over here.

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post #185 of 395 Old 11-07-2014, 10:33 PM
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Oh man, sounds like a late one. If I had two of me, I would send the other one over to help while I stayed at home so my wife would continue to let me sleep inside the house.
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post #186 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 12:18 AM
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Man this sounds like a catastrophe. Lol I hope you guys don't give up though. Your more than welcome to move it to my Theater room. Mine plays very nice. Oh but i need to watch my Buckeyes tonight. I could put it off for this much fun. Lol

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post #187 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 05:44 AM
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Arch, I think it would be perfectly fine to scrap the whole blind thing. Simply comparing the products is a great meet. I'm sure everyone agrees. So please don't stress about it........you have done enough work.....and take a nap!
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post #188 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 06:13 AM
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Wish i had seen this last night but i was prob asleep when it notified me

pretty sure this is what i did, however i don't think it 100% works, i still had to mess with the input gain to get it to match yours at rillas. we ended up getting them close +/- ~5 DB i think, the traces actually matched pretty well but i was measuring peak SPL slightly different

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Windows 8 has a USB recording bug. To get around this issue and use the OmniMic on a machine using Windows 8, please perform the following:

Find the OmniMic icon, Start Menu entries, etc., that you use to start the OmniMic software. Instead of left-clicking the icon, right-click and then left-click on the "Properties" menu item. A "Properties" window should open. Select the compatibility tab and find a checkbox labeled "Run this program in compatibility mode for:" There is a drop-down box just below the checkbox, set that to "Windows XP (Service Pack 3)". Then put a check in the checkbox and click "Ok" to close the properties windows.

Now when you start OmniMic using that icon (or menu item), it will run in the XP mode that avoids the Windows 8 USB recording bug.
Which Yamaha are you using? When i went from the RX-A3000 to the Onkyo 818 i didnt notice any huge swings in volume. the only difference i noticed was the LFE output on the onkyo was at a higher voltage so the sub amps needed less gain to reach the same SPL

I run the LCR off an external amp so that could have been it i guess

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post #189 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 06:23 AM
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They are probably still sleeping. Sounds like they had a rough night.

And yes you could scrap the blind comparison. I don't think anyone would mind.

JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #190 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks fellows. Still plugging at it - we'll see what happens.


FWIW -- and a little hint. ATMOS rocks. I think it could be a show stealer --- by that you can tell the Onkyo AccuEQ is done. (ant it's only a $400 Onkyo 636).


Next is DIRAC/minidsp


Pioneer will probably be last since we don't have the original mic.

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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #191 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
FWIW -- and a little hint. ATMOS rocks.
Does it "rock" with only 5 (or 7) speakers, or do you need all the additional speakers to appreciate it?
This is from the Dolby site:
"In the Home
Advanced Dolby® codecs and our sophisticated rendering process scale and adapt the original cinema experience to your home theater, from seven speakers to as many as 34, recreating the intent of the filmmaker."

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
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post #192 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 12:07 PM
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Really wish I could have made it... I have a pioneer elite sc 75 as well with original mic.

Really excited to hear results.

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post #193 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 04:09 PM
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jonathon will you have the onkyo on sunday monday or tuesday still? i figured i could come get my avr from you one of those days? id love to hear an atmos demo. sounds like fun. especially if a 400 receiver is wowing you that much.
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post #194 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 05:27 PM
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Jonathan: wife and son voted against me comming over and instead taking them to see birdman at alamo drafthouse. We just got back. I'll come over tomorrow to pick up the anthem. Does before the chiefs game or after the chiefs game work best for you?

Ron
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post #195 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappydue View Post
jonathon will you have the onkyo on sunday monday or tuesday still? i figured i could come get my avr from you one of those days? id love to hear an atmos demo. sounds like fun. especially if a 400 receiver is wowing you that much.
The owner is coming over at 9:30 am tomorrow to pick it up. It is a cool technology. Every single person identified it correctly who actually heard the demo.

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Originally Posted by rboster View Post
Jonathan: wife and son voted against me comming over and instead taking them to see birdman at alamo drafthouse. We just got back. I'll come over tomorrow to pick up the anthem. Does before the chiefs game or after the chiefs game work best for you?

Ron
Ron,

Either is fine. What time do you prefer?

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #196 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Does it "rock" with only 5 (or 7) speakers, or do you need all the additional speakers to appreciate it?
This is from the Dolby site:
"In the Home
Advanced Dolby® codecs and our sophisticated rendering process scale and adapt the original cinema experience to your home theater, from seven speakers to as many as 34, recreating the intent of the filmmaker."
It rocks with even just two.

Of the four guys that stayed the entire time - till about 9:30PM when we finished up, they scored the Onkyo 636 very high. It was the final act of the night and the only unit with Atmos. Even without back surrounds it still scored well. (636 is only a 5.1.2 receiver max - so if you use two ceiling speakers you can't run two back speakers).
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #197 of 395 Old 11-08-2014, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a little teaser of thoughts of the four guys who stayed blind testing through the whole lineup! 2/3's of the auditioners had left by the end. At the end of the day, before Stitch1 and I revealed which audition was which, we asked these guys to share their notes and thoughts in simple summaries or speak up if they liked or disliked a unit. We got some interaction and I started writing the comments spoken outloud.


This is really was just a fun little g2g. Don't take the results too seriously because there were too many variables to tightly control. These comments really only represent what these autoprocessors do in my room, on my equipment. You can't say you would like one better or worse in your room until you try it. I will note one thing that should make the results clearly YMMV. Of 8 processors there was EASILY a 20dB swing from loudest to quietest in post calibration SPL levels that were supposed to be 'reference". THESE SYSTEMS ARE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE CALIBRATING TO THE SAME SPL. I went into this meet thinking there might be a 3dB or maybe a little bit more variance between these processors, maybe a couple 5dB off! - NOT 20dB! Because of the huge variance we level matched each calibrated system using the Disney WOW disc off the left speaker channel to 72dB.


Here is a copy of the response chart for all left channels when offset so the loudest point is 72dB. This is basically what was listened to during the blind auditions. (as far as left channels goes). I have quite few more graphs, but I'll save them for later. Tired and going to take a break now. (no legend at this time either).



Here is a copy of the final four comment sheet discussed before the processor reveal
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-08-2014 at 10:30 PM.
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post #198 of 395 Old 11-09-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Here's a little teaser of thoughts of the four guys who stayed blind testing through the whole lineup! 2/3's of the auditioners had left by the end. At the end of the day, before Stitch1 and I revealed which audition was which, we asked these guys to share their notes and thoughts in simple summaries or speak up if they liked or disliked a unit. We got some interaction and I started writing the comments spoken outloud.


This is really was just a fun little g2g. Don't take the results too seriously because there were too many variables to tightly control. These comments really only represent what these autoprocessors do in my room, on my equipment. You can't say you would like one better or worse in your room until you try it. I will note one thing that should make the results clearly YMMV. Of 8 processors there was EASILY a 20dB swing from loudest to quietest in post calibration SPL levels that were supposed to be 'reference". THESE SYSTEMS ARE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE CALIBRATING TO THE SAME SPL. I went into this meet thinking there might be a 3dB or maybe a little bit more variance between these processors, maybe a couple 5dB off! - NOT 20dB! Because of the huge variance we level matched each calibrated system using the Disney WOW disc off the left speaker channel to 72dB.


Here is a copy of the response chart for all left channels when offset so the loudest point is 72dB. This is basically what was listened to during the blind auditions. (as far as left channels goes). I have quite few more graphs, but I'll save them for later. Tired and going to take a break now. (no legend at this time either).



Here is a copy of the final four comment sheet discussed before the processor reveal
Interested in more information as it comes out but it looks like my Yamaha scored well. Glad you were able to pull this off with the issues you were having.

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post #199 of 395 Old 11-09-2014, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The Means

EAW designed Mackie C200 speakers were used for the 7 speakers at this room auto eq processor comparison.

Nearfield, they are basically +/- 3db from 100hz to 20khz according to my own testing in room. Specs say (-3db) 90hz to 20,000hz
http://www.mackie.com/products/c200/

Post 31
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post28545098







I installed a cheap pair of Sony Sposato in wall speakers as ceiling speakers for the Atmos demo at this meet. My thoughts on installing these was to do so for the demo, then wait until Atmos becomes more mainstream and replace these Sony's with four Mackie C200 on the ceiling in front of the HVAC drop down and behind the HVAC drop down in my room (according to the 4 speaker atmos specs). Then I'd have 7.1.4 with all speakers being Mackie C200, but in reality, the Sony's right above my head in the 2 speaker atmos config seem to work perfectly fine - so maybe that's unnecessary. Most of the stuff going to Atmos speakers is supposed to be above 150hz anyway - and is typically ambient noise - so as my friend at work puts it - how high fidelity do you need a bird flap or a cricket chirp to be? Everything I heard off the Atmos demo disk 7channelfreak provided from CEDIA sounded just fine through the 2 Sonys.


http://www.amazon.com/Sposato-Sony-C...+wall+speakers
Install thread -
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...ting-area.html
Nothing fancy, but they fit the need fine for what we were doing, and I've found I like them for Pro Logic IIz height as a bonus.

Subs used were four Dayton Audio UM18-22 18" drivers in 21" cubed sealed cabs.
Here is their native FR response with a close mic measurement, literally taken nearly touching the center of the subwoofer cone. IIRC I had a 100hz crossover on the AVR at the time of this measurement. (no EQ in the iNuke DSP)





The Manner

For the meet I wanted to run all eight of the subs, but try as we might (we spent four hours) we couldn't get 2 banks of four to play nice at nearly equal distances from the main listening position (MLP). It just wasn't working. We were having phase issues, room cancellation issues, and just plan what the heck is happening moments --- so we scuttled the idea of using all eight and just went to four subs in two banks. One bank was 11.5 feet from the MLP, one bank was 12.5 feet from the MLP. Both pairs/banks were stacked fairly close to the front baffle wall. We thought it was important to have the two banks nearly equal distance from the MLP so that the AVRs with only 1 subwoofer out wouldn't be penalized too noticeably, but the AVRs with two subwoofers out could still EQ each bank separately and possibly work their subwoofer processing advantage to small effect.

Each sub run off a single channel of an iNuke DSP 6000 amp. (2 amps, four subs - each channel of the iNuke capable of delivering about 2,000 watts) The ONLY modification to the iNuke 6000 DSP was a PEQ 6dB boost at 20hz with a Q of 2.0 for each sub on each channel.

Our goal in the subwoofer setup was to start with a generically flat starting position on the subs - not tailored perfectly for the room - but basically what a high end retail or internet direct subwoofer might look like in room. With the iNuke's DSP we could have handed off a ruler flat frequency response to the processors at the MLP -- but most all attendees agreed - that was not the goal - we wanted to see what the processors would do with the room, not hand them the keys on a silver platter - so I created the basic single PEQ boost of 6dB and 20hz and then we moved the subs around quite a bit to find the optimal placement and let the chips fall from there. It might be argued that the steps/time we took to optimize isn't even real world use case for most setups - but I had some skin in the game to make my new DIY/AIY subwoofers sound good (especially since we were only going to use four and not all eight.)

Here is Bank 1, and Bank 2, playing individually and then both Banks playing at the same time in the final subwoofer setup captures at the MLP before we started letting the processors have their way in their setup calibrations.



Stitch1 loaned his drum stand setup to be used for mic positions. The main starting position was the same for every setup, the additional settings were typically similar for the setups with the exception of the setups that had unique microphones or specific placement requirements (like Anthem). The following pictures give you an idea of how the room was setup, and how the mic positions were used. The high hat cymbal stands were used as the static mic positions. This setup was inspired by the idea of trying to keep the processor input data the same for each - so as to eliminate as many variables as possible between processor setup strategies.



















In case that the previous 7 pictures from photobucket are difficult to make out - here are the mic positions circled. If a unit used more than 5 positions - then we'd recycle the positions in the middle row. Different processors had varied amounts of positions measured. The Yamaha required 11 positions - the Denon eight, etc. The mic positions may not look evenly placed in the picture due to camera angles - but they were evenly spaced and also in symmetry and balance to the front screen. The position 4 on this diagram was actually a camera tripod we stood up in the front middle seat at ear level. We started every measurement in position 1. Middle Seat, Middle Row, Directly in front of the center channel. Some processors only took measurements from one position, in that case 1 was it. (AccuEQ & Trinnov)







The Method

For each blind audition (8 total) we watched about 15 minutes of Edge of Tomorrow, and then watched some standalone clips in JRiver. Edge of Tomorrow was the movie chosen to represent real world Movie watching because it is a Groundhog Day type movie, but action oriented, so there is some repetition to suit the comparison nature of this event, yet, each segment also provides great new material. The use of a movie like this allows for less repetitiousness boredom. I also liked that the movie allowed each processor to have new material to demo and so each user can get a bit of historic context through any repeat content, but also get to experience new material with the processor in the course of a new movie. I think it worked because we could all tell differences! Following that 15 minute section of EoT, the auditoners swapped seats and moved to the JRiver media center portion of clip playback. JRiver clips ran about 10 minutes and gave the auditoners a chance to hear what that particular processor sounded like in stereo music, and provided a few identical movie clips to compare directly A to A. I asked that the auditioners pick two seats and swap between the two segments, and then repeat each audition in the same two seats for the same material so they could actually make at least minimally viable comparisons between the auditions. What chairs each auditioner chose, or where they ended up, I left up to them.

So about 15 minutes of this:

then 10 minutes of this:



The Madness
So what's the deal? Why was it madness?
Well - here are the post calibration frequency responses from each entry. No funny business, just absurdity. The helpers and I set the mic in the same standardized positions for each system (unless specific places were actually required, IE Anthem, DIRAC, Yamaha) and the starting position for the initial calibration was the exact same spot for ever processor. Stitch1 loaned a drum kit with a bunch of high hat stands (used as mic stands) - to ensure our mic capture positions weren't different from processor to processor. In theory, after calibration each processor should be close to the same SPL at least, if not generally reasonably close to a flatter frequency plot - RIGHT?? I mean that's the point of these systems -- RIGHT? To get the AVRs to a reference volume and try to flatten frequency response while doing so - so that each user's system in different rooms and different speaker setups has a similar audio experience?!?!?!

Well, with eight different systems here is what was captured by omnimic for each as post calibration results. We followed instructions to let each auto processor optimize the room. The ONLY change we allowed post calibration was setting speakers to small and crossover to 80hz when the processor/AVR allowed. To capture the post calibration frequency response plots shown here I simply turned each AVR to -12dB on the main volume knob and played track 2 of the omnimic disk from the HTPC to the processor. The results are ridiculous. But that is the tested state of variance in these processors.





MORE TO COME -
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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The first unit demonstrated during the blind test was the Onkyo PR-SC 5508 connected to the Sherbourn 7-350 using (7) XLR attenuators. It was the control unit. It was setup with Audyssey using three mic positions in the center row, because 3 positions is the minimum - and knowing that we wanted to turn Audyssey off for the control, unit - three was acceptable. The first measured position was in the main center chair in the second (middle row).


NOTES:
  • The lowest channel trim was -9.5dB after the Audyssey calibration -- the XLR attentuators used were 10dB attenuators. Had we not have had the attenuators the speaker channel level would have been -19.5dB when connected to the Sherbourn 7-350 amp.
  • The subwoofer 2 was tapped out on the channel trim at -15dB
  • I turned the unit back on tonight, 11/12, and verified Audyssey was off. So I can't tell you why the Onkyo 5508 with no EQ sounded different in Stereo to most users than the Onkyo 636 with AccuEQ in stereo (AccuEQ isn't supposed to apply to the L/R speakers to my knowledge). If I come up with a theory I'll pass it on.

Channel distances set by Audyssey MultiEQ XT (retained after Audyssey is turned off).
L - 13'
C - 12'
R - 13'
SL - 13.5'
SR - 8.5'
SBL -12'
SBR - 12'
Sub1 - 11.5'
Sub2 - 12.5'

Mic positions for the three calibrations were - 1 then position 2, then position 3.


Audyssey was turned off following the calibration, and crossovers were manually set to 80hz. The Onkyo 5508 likes to use Audyssey to set the Mackies to 55hz typically in my baffle wall - but we decided on the AVRs that would allow it - we'd manually turn the speaker crossover points to 80hz which is THX standard.

The following frequency response captures were performed after the Audyssey calibration, but Audyssey was turned off for the captures so just channel trims, and distance settings were retained within the processor.




Full Range


Subwoofers:
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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Mini DSP-DL with Dirac Live

The MiniDSP w/ Dirac was the second audition. It sat on top of the Onkyo PR-SC5508 from the previous audition. For some reason one channel was calibrated way lower than the other. We were rushed to get this one in. We started it late and it went late - we finished the calibration with the whole group watching, and started our meet an hour later (at 3 instead of 2) so we could get this one in. In my opinion this is a complicated setup, and frankly I was so busy the week before gathering up equipment every night, and preparing for the meet I didn't get to put the time into reading up on it that was deserved. 7channelfreak, the owner, had just purchased it and was unfamiliar with it. dgage offered his assistance, from the minidsp thread, but ultimately we all stumbled through the setup. 7channelfreak, I apologize -- as I think about this tonight, I wonder if the channel level difference was nothing more than an XLR attenuator that was unplugged for initial testing with this unit on 11/8 when we were trying to figure out what our levels were at. We were having trouble getting the levels matched on the Dirac and putting attenuators in and out of the mix and --- darn it - this might have been my mistake based on the pretty clear 10dB difference in the Left and Right channel. This unit setup is not for the weak of heart - just getting all the software and licenses figured out was a bear. Because we were rushing through it - I didn't go back through and verify the channels were ballpark close and we just went with what we had at 3PM. It makes more sense now, and I'm exceptionally sorry because I think I screwed this one up, and I JUST realized it moments ago.


Anyrate - it seems to have some avid followers and the group generally liked it - even with the channel mismatch.


Here are the charts:




DIRAC Full Range:







DIRAC subwoofer





There are a lot of options with this unit. You can set target curves, you can customize the daylights out of it. It's definitely for a tinkerer. One item of note - this unit won't ever run Atmos - as it cannot pass bitstream. that was the reason it failed to play our movie demos off the HTPC too - I didn't think about that until after it's demo - but JRiver was setup to pass bitstream for the movie clips and so it just kept crashing when it would try to play to the DIRAC.


Here are some screenprints of the setup and GUI.


Impulse chart

I believe you can drag and drop your target curve - minidsp will match it.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-12-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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Yamaha CX-A5000 test info.


The Yamaha pre-amp was also used with the Sherbourn 7-350. I took the attenuators off with the Yamaha because it seemed to supply the Sherbourn with much less voltage. While the Onkyo's highest channel trim level was -9.5 with a 10dB attenuator in the line (without attenuator - 19.5dB which is out of range) the Yamaha was actually functional without the xlr signal attentuators. This might be a problem maxing out some pro amps with higher voltage thresholds, but it seemed a nice match with the sherbourn amp we were using.




Yamaha Full Range:





Yamaha Subwoofer Frequency chart




Angle measurements (it's cool that the Yamaha had this. It and the Trinnov were the only units that measured angles).



The Yamaha tried to set all speakers to Large, but we changed them to small with an 80hz crossover.



These are the channel trims as detected by YPAO. Recall that the 10dB attenuators were not used. There looks to be nearly a 10dB difference in voltage levels between the Onkyo PR-SC5508 and the Yamaha CX-A5000





Distances as detected by YPAO. Compare to the Onkyo PR-SC5508 above.



Another thing to note on the Yamaha was that it and the trinnov had the most unique post auto calibration EQ compared to the others that seemed to be more comparable.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-23-2014 at 05:34 AM.
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Denon 4520CI test info
Eight positions were used for the Denon's Audyssey Platinum multi eq xt32 setup.

Full Range Speakers -



Denon - Subwoofers



Denon Crossovers as configured by Denon autoeq/Audyssey XT32. Post picture we moved all channels to 80hz crossover







Channel trims - Denon was the first processor to use it's own internal amp section and all subsequent processors used their own internal amps. The simplicity of using the internal amps won the day. The pre-pros used in the first three auditions HAD to have an amp. These AVR units do not. Notice the difference on this unit and the Yamaha for subwoofer out levels!



Distances as determined by Audyssey
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-23-2014 at 05:42 AM.
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Sherwood 972/Trinnov test info


Unfortunately I didn't capture any camera pics on the Trinnov. The Trinnov measuring microphone system is probably the most advanced. It has a microphone with multiple capsules on it. It only requires one position for the setup, because the multiple mics. Randy and AJ pretty much ran the setup on this one, because I was wholly unfamilar with the unit. We had some trouble with setup on this unit. It took us about 3 hours. When we first ran the Trinnov auto EQ for some reason the bass was down about 10dB. The Trinnov unit has some manually applied bass curve filters available, and seeing that we weren't flat at all with the mains we loaded up the 6dB filter. Unfortunately this killed our Trinnov capture and we had to do it again. When we measured after the 6dB bass filter was applied we ended up with the bass about 18dB hot?!?!?! We reloaded the 3dB manual filter and ran Trinnov again (IIRC) and it ended up about right. You can't change crossover or channel spl trim levels on the Trinnov system after it runs. If you do those functions you lose your auto calibration - - - Thus that's why we used the MLV to level match each processor system for the comparison, instead of level matching each channel. (That and time.) The Trinnov system was perhaps one of the more advanced of the day, so much so that we could have probably run about 4 different setups on it and completely had different results. It does 2d remapping, 3d remapping, and cinema and music modes. Each is very different sounding according to those who utilize this system. I think this processor would be really cool to play with and dial in - unfortunately we didn't have time for that. Each audio configuration is saved to a video preset, of which there are four. For the purposes of our meet we only used video 1 as configured by AJ. I think AJ might have taken some pictures. If he did, and cares to send them to me, then I'll upload them to this processor section.


Anyway - here are the post EQ measurements and what was auditioned for the mains





For the subs
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-15-2014 at 05:23 PM.
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Pioneer SC-67 test info


Disclaimer: We didn't have the original mic for the SC-67 (Wulfcomp bought his unit refurbed and it didn't come with a mic), so we used Carp's mic from his older Pioneer Elite unit. To the attendees knowledge the mic hadn't changed from the older Elite to the newer SC-67.


The Pioneer had a nice set of detailed menus showing exactly what MCACC did. It was one of the most revealing of each change instead of mysteriously hiding the information like some processors seemed to do.


Here are the mains as calibrated by MCACC






Some screenprints of the GUI and calibration results:



We changed the speakers to small on the Pioneer just like the other processors after snapping this picture



Channel Trims -



Distances on the Pioneer are set to the 1/2" -- the smallest increment of any we encountered at this meet.



Standing Waves



EQ Calibration



Group Delay Before





Group Delay After
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-15-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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Anthem MRX 510 Test info:


To me, this was probably the single most impressive auto processor setup function. It was fast, effective, and very slick. The processing takes just seconds, because it uses the full processor power of my HTPC (fourth gen I7 quad core with 16GB of RAM). Compare that to 25 minutes on the Trinnov, and 5-10, 15, 20 minutes on several other units because they are using onboard chip processing. I had a couple little speed bumps to pass before I figured the unit out initially. rboster had a static IP configured on his Anthem, and I couldn't get the software to communicate initially until I released the static IP config and let it use DHCP, since his home network range was different than my router range was. This would not normally be a problem, but it eluded me at first. The other nit pick is the included USB cord is too short for my big room and as you may know USB has a reliable working length of about 15 feet. Since the Anthem mic uses USB, you are pretty limited if using the mic in a large room. However, I managed to get an extension USB cord working after multiple attempts (intermittently, but working well enough to proceed). One very nice thing about the Anthem config is that if it looses MIC connection it doesn't give up, it just gives you the option to retry. The PC interface is VERY well done and very polished. Compared to DIRAC's setup process - this application software is a Cadillac. Sorry, if that is not what the minidsp guys wanted to hear, but this interface is SLICK compared to minidsp's convoluted install, license process, setup, and actual calibration process. MiniDSP would be served well to take notes. There is just a single piece of software to run, the license key is even automatically detected by the software off the install CD, and following the calibration it asks if you want a customized report showing you what Anthem did. Color me impressed! MiniDSP and DIRAC license keys and their software setup with a half dozen downloads of which you aren't sure at any point if you have what you need, or installed what you need, or did it in the right order - or even if you have th license key etc --- it's practically a nightmare by comparison to this ARC software. The ARC system uses five measuring positions, in the shape of an X. Every single step along the way is perfectly defined with pictures and instructions through the ARC software. I liked this unit. I'd be happy to play with this system more too. The software lets you dial in the curves you want a bit more than typical auto processor systems - though obviously didn't do that, but it's cool that you can adjust what you want to adjust to tailor your sound - like max and minimum EQ frequencies and target crossover points. By contrast, most of these systems limit you to running what they want you to run when you enable the auto EQ, and if you change anything you may just lose the auto EQ function.


Here are the mains post calibration:



Anthem subwoofer calibration:



Channel Trims -





Post Calibration the ARC setup produces a 10 page report that any Executive officer would be happy to review. Here is a screenprint of the first two pages:



Configuration options (note you can set the max and minimum eq frequencies, as well as set target EQ crossover points)
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-18-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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Onkyo 636 Test:


The Onkyo 636 with Accu EQ only measures from a single position. It calculates quickly and I had no issues with it. Very simple. It has a well designed interface, as you would expect from a major player. This unit applies no EQ to the front left and right channels. Because the unit only supported 7 channels total, we disconnect the rear surround speakers and connected the ceiling speakers which were only active for the actual ATMOS demo in the playlist. It was the last clip of the last demo and EVERYONE immediately knew it was actual ATMOS. The room erupted in cheers and laughs saying THERE's ATMOS. There was some discussion on whether rears or heights were more important - and not everyone agreed, but everyone thought the effect of Atmos was worthwhile and noticeable.


Onkyo Full Range post calibration:



Onkyo Subwoofer Calibration:



Channel Trims -


Channel distances



Crossover points - all changed to 80hz post this picture:
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-15-2014 at 06:25 PM.
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COMPARING THIS DATA - How?


I've attached the frequency response captures to this post in a zip file. You can download omnmic software or REW to make comparisons as you see fit and add them to this discussion.

We used the MLV to level match to the Disney WOW disk left channel at 72dB.

A test of the Disney WOW disk revels that it is bandwidth limited pink noise between 500hz and 2,000hz.



When I zoom in on the left channel frequency captures between 500hz and 2000hz and manually offset the trims to make them close this is what I end up with: (this is an approximation - notice the Y axis is 2dB spacing).



When expand the X axis to include 10hz to 20,000hz,this is what the frequency captures look like post calibration on each system.



And the same thing taken to typical 5dB spacing on the Y axis.



And the same limited down to the subwoofer frequencies: 10hz to 100hz



















---------------------------------------------------


I thought these processor systems sounded very different. In my opinion they ranged from nearly chill inducingly good on the Denon Audyssey MultiEQ XT and Yamaha YPAO (my favorites), to very grating with the Pioneer MCACC. (harsh, edgy treble bias).

On one audition I was concerned that that my speakers had been blown (not the Pioneer), but then the next audition realized it was just the processor/EQ doing some funny things to the voices I hadn't heard before. I don't know how stable my preferences would be if the room changed. Would the processors still fall out in the same order to my subjective likes? Doubtful. The room really does a number on frequency response, and the processors modify that frequency response further. This was a fun experiment, and I was glad to have the exposure to new brands, equipment and technologies in the hobby.


Special thanks to several of the attendees for helping me setup, bringing over food, beer, wine, and loaning us equipment for the meet. I appreciate the willingness to assist and support the meet and enjoyed spending time with each of you.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 11-15-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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post #209 of 395 Old 11-09-2014, 06:22 AM
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Lol well I'd say it's safe to say that carp needs to buy anything else but his pioneer lol.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappydue View Post
Lol well I'd say it's safe to say that carp needs to buy anything else but his pioneer lol.
I've never used MCACC for the eq because it sounds like terrible, I've always thought that. I don't use any processing, and with the findings last night it looks like that is not a bad thing!!
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