**miniDSP DDRC-88A Official Thread**8-channel AI/AO Dirac Live in a box - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tin_Can View Post
My gut tells me this won't work very well, either. But, who knows. I think the first measurement is the most important. As long as you have the mic in the exact same position for both units, maybe it will work.

It would be nice if they would come up with a way to link two units together. They have USB ports. Link 'em together! Hehe.
You want to get the first mic location right but this is true for any number of units you're using. The other measurements help Dirac Live to lear something about the room. It shouldn't matter if these other mic locations precisely match between units. What Dirac learns from those points should be the same. If it's not the same then there's something fundamentally wrong with how Dirac Live works.

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post #62 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Guys,

Would like to make a list of pre/pro/receivers that can connect up to this box of tricks. The minimum requirement are analogue outputs. Some have already suggested multi units of the DDRC-88A to cater from more than 8 channels to do new formats such as Atmos/Auro as well as heights and wides. Concern is ensuring the target curve is common for both boxes.
It's early days but I can't see anything that would prevent one target curve being loaded to two different boxes. The target curve is saved as a text file and is just selected and loaded - should be possible to load it to any DDC-88 I'd think.
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post #63 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KurianOfBorg View Post
Using two of these at once won't work as you expect. They are obviously not simple PEQs. Each unit will end up with different delays and different average corrected response curves since you are measuring totally different sets of speakers from potentially different measuring locations. There is no way each one will average out to the same response because of the way their algorithm merges the measurements.
Disagree. The workflow as I see it is this:

  1. Connect Dirac DDC-88 Unit 1 to (say) 7 listener level speaker channels.
  2. Connect Unit 2 to (say) 4 overhead channels
  3. Connect sub(s) to either unit, let's say Unit 1.
  4. Connect laptop to Unit 1 and run Dirac measuring software.
  5. Create filters and apply the standard target curve or a custom target curve.
  6. Save the filters/curve.
  7. Load the chosen filter/curve into Unit 1.
  8. Connect laptop to Unit 2 and run Dirac measuring software to set levels and delays for the speakers being measured and to create filter for the chosen speakers.
  9. Load the curve created earlier into Unit 2 so that the created filter is modified to the chosen curve.

Where am I going wrong?
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post #64 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 05:06 AM
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post #65 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 05:51 AM
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As it seems the delay introduced will not be an issue, this is looking even better for my use.

I do wish it had Ethernet on it instead of just USB, my equipment rack is 40+ feet from my listening position, so it will be difficult to run Dirac from my Rack, I'll need to run Dirac initially with the unit in my theater, and then rack it after calibration.


Not to start a great debate, but volume control has me thinking. With only USB control offered and not wanting to use an IR blaster, I guess volume control would still be handled by the AVR, and just let the 88A sit at "100%" volume. Especially in the case of 2 units, volume control needs to happen elsewhere.

I would already have my AVR do bass management by setting appropriate crossovers, so in addition to volume, would it make sense for the AVR to also set speaker levels and distance, and let Dirac do the filter correction? Basically let Audyssey set speaker levels / distance, but then turn Audyssey off and let Dirac finish the job.

If we let Dirac do all the heavy lifting and set its own speaker levels, then its a shame no one makes an 11 + channel pre/pro that's just a "dumb" format decoder / source switcher for about half price lol
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post #66 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gonthorn View Post
Not to start a great debate, but volume control has me thinking. With only USB control offered and not wanting to use an IR blaster, I guess volume control would still be handled by the AVR, and just let the 88A sit at "100%" volume. Especially in the case of 2 units, volume control needs to happen elsewhere.
In terms of best signal to noise ratio it's probably best to have the DDRC-88A at 100%. On the other hand, the unit uses 32bit float so it might audibly be completely transparent if it is used for controlling the volume.

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Originally Posted by gonthorn View Post
I would already have my AVR do bass management by setting appropriate crossovers, so in addition to volume, would it make sense for the AVR to also set speaker levels and distance, and let Dirac do the filter correction? Basically let Audyssey set speaker levels / distance, but then turn Audyssey off and let Dirac finish the job.
You can do it either way.
The only tricky thing might be setting crossovers right. You either have speakers and subs that can be linearized quite a bit below/above their intended crossover frequency or you set a common crossover frequency for all your satellite speakers that needs to be mirrored in the target curves of the DDRC-88A.

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Originally Posted by gonthorn View Post
If we let Dirac do all the heavy lifting and set its own speaker levels, then its a shame no one makes an 11 + channel pre/pro that's just a "dumb" format decoder / source switcher for about half price lol
Outlaw 975, Denon DN-500AV, Emotiva UMC-200? I'm pretty sure models with more channels will follow.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 12-09-2014 at 06:18 AM.
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post #67 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 07:00 AM
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Too bad you can't connect the pre-out from the AVR to the DDRC-88A and then have it go back to the pre-in on the same AVR.

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post #68 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Disagree. The workflow as I see it is this:

  1. Connect Dirac DDC-88 Unit 1 to (say) 7 listener level speaker channels.
  2. Connect Unit 2 to (say) 4 overhead channels
  3. Connect sub(s) to either unit, let's say Unit 1.
  4. Connect laptop to Unit 1 and run Dirac measuring software.
  5. Create filters and apply the standard target curve or a custom target curve.
  6. Save the filters/curve.
  7. Load the chosen filter/curve into Unit 1.
  8. Connect laptop to Unit 2 and run Dirac measuring software to set levels and delays for the speakers being measured and to create filter for the chosen speakers.
  9. Load the curve created earlier into Unit 2 so that the created filter is modified to the chosen curve.

Where am I going wrong?
This makes sense to me.

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post #69 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's early days but I can't see anything that would prevent one target curve being loaded to two different boxes. The target curve is saved as a text file and is just selected and loaded - should be possible to load it to any DDC-88 I'd think.
That makes sense for floor speakers (maybe for ceiling speakers as well), However, for the Dolby-Enabled upfiring speakers in an Atmos configuration that use the ceiling bounce, wouldn't you want to use a target curve closer to the one in the Dolby patent? So a straight target curve copy for all non-sub channels may not always be appropriate.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1574386-official-dolby-atmos-thread-home-theater-version-255.html#post27373386

(This post and the ones below it)
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post #70 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That makes sense for floor speakers (maybe for ceiling speakers as well), However, for the Dolby-Enabled upfiring speakers in an Atmos configuration that use the ceiling bounce, wouldn't you want to use a target curve closer to the one in the Dolby patent? So a straight target curve copy for all non-sub channels may not always be appropriate.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1574386-official-dolby-atmos-thread-home-theater-version-255.html#post27373386

(This post and the ones below it)
Each speaker can have its own target, so it shouldn't be a problem.
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post #71 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That makes sense for floor speakers (maybe for ceiling speakers as well), However, for the Dolby-Enabled upfiring speakers in an Atmos configuration that use the ceiling bounce, wouldn't you want to use a target curve closer to the one in the Dolby patent? So a straight target curve copy for all non-sub channels may not always be appropriate.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post27373386

(This post and the ones below it)
Oh I withdraw gracefully - I know nothing at all about how it might/not work with Atmos upfiring speakers. I was only interested in physical speakers.
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post #72 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 08:56 AM
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for the Dolby-Enabled upfiring speakers in an Atmos configuration that use the ceiling bounce, wouldn't you want to use a target curve closer to the one in the Dolby patent?
Yes and Dirac Live allows you to apply any curve you like.

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post #73 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 09:06 AM
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Yes and Dirac Live allows you to apply any curve you like.
That put the burden on the user to know that they'll not want to use just any old standard target curve for the Dolby-enabled satellites, but apply something like the curve Roger cited, with the level and Q at specific frequencies along the lines of what you posted back in the Dolby Atmos thread a few months ago. If anyone does an FAQ on the DDRC-88A (not me; I'm going down a different path with my room), they'll want to note that Dolby Elevation speakers need special treatment to avoid undoing the intent of the design specs.

However, for standard speakers Keith's point is well taken. Sharing target curves between channels and indeed separate DDRC-88A units is a simple step.

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post #74 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
That put the burden on the user to know that they'll not want to use just any old standard target curve for the Dolby-enabled satellites, but apply something like the curve Roger cited, with the level and Q at specific frequencies along the lines of what you posted back in the Dolby Atmos thread a few months ago.
Are Dolby enabled satellites treated differently than regular in-ceiling speakers?
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post #75 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:20 AM
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I am following this thread with a great deal of interest because I have always wanted to evaluate Dirac vs. Audyssey. I am in the process of replacing my AVR with a pre-pro with external amps, so I will be positioned to run an evaluation.

If I understand correctly, I could run an Audyssey calibration on the pre-pro, turn it off, and then run a Dirac calibration on the MiniDSP, which then could also be toggled off and on. If I configure the pre-pro to only use a 7.1 configuration, then by alternating between Audyssey on/Dirac off and Audyssey off/Dirac on, I should be in a good position to make an evaluation of the two RC results. In other words, the transition should be quick enough to minimize the problems with audio memory.

While I think the ideas of using two MiniDSP's for Atmos systems is interesting, I am somewhat skeptical that it will work. Regardless, since I have no plans on implementing Atmos anytime soon, I'll enjoy observing the results from the sidelines.

And as far as addressing the single sub-out connection, which concerns me since I have four subs, couldn't one use a 2x4 MiniDSP on the sub output to tweak/optimize the sub configuration? I have one of those sitting on a shelf collecting dust.
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post #76 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
And as far as addressing the single sub-out connection, which concerns me since I have four subs, couldn't one use a 2x4 MiniDSP on the sub output to tweak/optimize the sub configuration? I have one of those sitting on a shelf collecting dust.
Looking through the manual, it looks as if there is a check box next to each speaker to signify whether it's a subwoofer. So, you may be able to run all 8 channels as subs.

You'd still be limited by your prepro as to how many sub outputs you've got, but I don't see why you couldn't split (as an example) the two sub outs on the prepro to get 4 inputs (hence 4 separate sub outs) on the Dirac unit.

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post #77 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:44 AM
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^^^

yes that is what I was hoping

I have a 5.2 system so I should be able to check one of the available channels as sub for my second sub?

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post #78 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:45 AM
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Not sure I understand what you are saying. I need 7 speaker channels and the remaining channel would be the sub channel. I am concerned that the single sub channel would have a single trim and delay setting for all four of my subs. Adding the 2x4 Mini-DSP should allow me to adjust trim and delay settings for all four subs on the one output channel. Does this make sense?
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post #79 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Not sure I understand what you are saying. I need 7 speaker channels and the remaining channel would be the sub channel. I am concerned that the single sub channel would have a single trim and delay setting for all four of my subs. Adding the 2x4 Mini-DSP should allow me to adjust trim and delay settings for all four subs on the one output channel. Does this make sense?
Yeah, that makes sense. But, you'd need a second unit to get full control of a 7.4 system, if that's important to you.
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post #80 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Disagree. The workflow as I see it is this:

  1. Connect Dirac DDC-88 Unit 1 to (say) 7 listener level speaker channels.
  2. Connect Unit 2 to (say) 4 overhead channels
  3. Connect sub(s) to either unit, let's say Unit 1.
  4. Connect laptop to Unit 1 and run Dirac measuring software.
  5. Create filters and apply the standard target curve or a custom target curve.
  6. Save the filters/curve.
  7. Load the chosen filter/curve into Unit 1.
  8. Connect laptop to Unit 2 and run Dirac measuring software to set levels and delays for the speakers being measured and to create filter for the chosen speakers.
  9. Load the curve created earlier into Unit 2 so that the created filter is modified to the chosen curve.

Where am I going wrong?
For my 5.1.4 setup I would probably go with:

LCR, side surrounds and two subwoofer inputs on unit 1. My six subs can be grouped as two groups.
4 Atmos speakers on unit 2.
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post #81 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am following this thread with a great deal of interest because I have always wanted to evaluate Dirac vs. Audyssey. I am in the process of replacing my AVR with a pre-pro with external amps, so I will be positioned to run an evaluation.

If I understand correctly, I could run an Audyssey calibration on the pre-pro, turn it off, and then run a Dirac calibration on the MiniDSP, which then could also be toggled off and on. If I configure the pre-pro to only use a 7.1 configuration, then by alternating between Audyssey on/Dirac off and Audyssey off/Dirac on, I should be in a good position to make an evaluation of the two RC results. In other words, the transition should be quick enough to minimize the problems with audio memory.
Yes, that would be a very interesting comparison. Just make sure both setups are level-matched and someone else is doing the switching.

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While I think the ideas of using two MiniDSP's for Atmos systems is interesting, I am somewhat skeptical that it will work.

Why not?

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
And as far as addressing the single sub-out connection, which concerns me since I have four subs, couldn't one use a 2x4 MiniDSP on the sub output to tweak/optimize the sub configuration?
Yes.

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post #82 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 11:15 AM
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^^^

yes that is what I was hoping

I have a 5.2 system so I should be able to check one of the available channels as sub for my second sub?
That is what the user manual diagrams show currently. You'd designate 5 channels for LCR, LS, RS and 2 channels for Sub 1 and Sub 2. In fact, you'd have a channel left over
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post #83 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 11:28 AM
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Yeah, that makes sense. But, you'd need a second unit to get full control of a 7.4 system, if that's important to you.
I don't know if that is important, because I don't know what "full control" means. To me, that's why the evaluation will be interesting. If I can't achieve the same results that I have with four subs using Audyssey, the experiment will not have been successful. For the time being, I remain optimistic that I will be able to achieve satisfactory results without adding a second MiniDSP (for a 7.1 configuration).
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post #84 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 12:04 PM
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Are Dolby enabled satellites treated differently than regular in-ceiling speakers?
Yes.

There's a Head Response Transfer Function built into the speakers' internal filters which tries to help make their direct sounds seem to come from overhead. In other words, the speakers include some explicit frequency shaping, and Dolby gets a license fee from every company making them.

If you simply apply a room EQ to those speakers' sounds as heard by a microphone, the EQ will flatten out and remove that HRTF. So far as the EQ is concerned, it's just one more room distortion to be removed. As a result, the roomEQ algorithms built into Atmos AVRs are designed also to apply that HRTF. (As a side effect, applying that EQ lets one use some types of non-Atmos-enabled speakers as upward firing reflecting speakers.)

Dolby has published an example frequency response curve in their Atmos patent. In principle the user should be able to include it in the desired frequency response curve produced by Dirac. Unfortunately, however, I don't think Dirac or miniDSP are allowed to provide this curve as an example. I suspect doing so would violate Dolby's patents.

So there's going to have to be some tradeoff somewhere to get the best sound out of upfiring Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers.

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post #85 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't know if that is important, because I don't know what "full control" means. To me, that's why the evaluation will be interesting. If I can't achieve the same results that I have with four subs using Audyssey, the experiment will not have been successful. For the time being, I remain optimistic that I will be able to achieve satisfactory results without adding a second MiniDSP (for a 7.1 configuration).
this post might help - https://minidsp.desk.com/customer/po...-multiple-subs

the combination, of a 2x4 minidsp for integrating multiple subs & then the 88a for 7.1 setup, looks a good one to me
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post #86 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Dolby has published an example frequency response curve in their Atmos patent. In principle the user should be able to include it in the desired frequency response curve produced by Dirac. Unfortunately, however, I don't think Dirac or miniDSP are allowed to provide this curve as an example. I suspect doing so would violate Dolby's patents.
To dial in the curve shown in patent WO2014107714A1 isn't exactly rocket science, is it?

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post #87 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
We need a MiniDSP that can EQ 9.3.6 channels (Atmos/Auro-3D/UHD/MDA). ...Only eight channels won't cut it anymore nowadays.
If that's actually the case, I'd expect miniDSP to reevaluate in the future. But it seems to me, honestly, that 8 channels is the sweet spot, allowing 5.1 with multisubs or 7.1 with external EQ for multisubs.


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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Too bad you can't connect the pre-out from the AVR to the DDRC-88A and then have it go back to the pre-in on the same AVR.
I wish AVR makers would get together and standardize a digital processor loop. It would need a bunch of DRM crap but would be a very nice feature.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
***If I understand correctly, I could run an Audyssey calibration on the pre-pro, turn it off, and then run a Dirac calibration on the MiniDSP, which then could also be toggled off and on. If I configure the pre-pro to only use a 7.1 configuration, then by alternating between Audyssey on/Dirac off and Audyssey off/Dirac on, I should be in a good position to make an evaluation of the two RC results.
The only thing I would add is that you should use the volume control on the DDRC to match voltage output.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
And as far as addressing the single sub-out connection, which concerns me since I have four subs, couldn't one use a 2x4 MiniDSP on the sub output to tweak/optimize the sub configuration? I have one of those sitting on a shelf collecting dust.
IMO that's the optimal way to do it, even though it means two AD/DA loops for the subs. (Perhaps miniDSP will offer a digital out that could feed a 2x4, either directly or through their minDigi adapter?) Even with room correction I've not found one that handles multiple subwoofers in a way that consistently works well. Dirac Unison is on paper the smartest one, but of course nobody not at Dirac or a few partners have heard it in action.

I don't think the second AD/DA loop is a real problem for bass, but on paper it would be nice not to have that extra loop.

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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
I have a 5.2 system so I should be able to check one of the available channels as sub for my second sub?
Look like it. Not sure how it handles multiple subwoofers, though.

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post #88 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 06:31 PM
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Dirac Unison?

What does that have to do with Multiple subwoofers?

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post #89 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post
^^^
Dirac Unison?

What does that have to do with Multiple subwoofers?

RayJr
Because it treats every speaker designated as capable of doing so as a source in the modal region.

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post #90 of 16656 Old 12-09-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Because it treats every speaker designated as capable of doing so as a source in the modal region.
OK...
I was just wondering...cause when I heard DIRAC Unison at CES 2014...they never talked about any advantages for multiple subwoofers.
The concept of Unison was that every speaker in the system works as an active acoustic canceler for every other speaker...active room treatments.
Once again...they said nothing about multi subwoofer consistency.

Just my $.02
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